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"HE WAS ALREADY DOING THAT, VADOS!"
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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100
- Thread starter Warren_Valion
- Start date
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I haven't been keeping up with Hit's Time Skip tomfoolery, but now that I'm hearing about the frustrastration it causes, I'm curious.
Presuming it has so inconsistent/self-contradictory/poorly designed as to be indecipherable:
What are the ways it could function, why could each of those be the way, & why do they each fail as a means?
Presuming it has so inconsistent/self-contradictory/poorly designed as to be indecipherable:
What are the ways it could function, why could each of those be the way, & why do they each fail as a means?
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There’s three separate main abilities that Time Skip has to accomplish for the plot to function as we see happen in the Anime.
Time Stop, Time Travel (Skip), and Temporal Storage.
The first one is pretty self explanatory. Plenty of characters, WoG, Hit himself, and visual showings very clearly illustrate that Time Skip is a Time Stop. However, this is directly contradictory to the explanation of his powers we get from Vados and regurgitated by Whis. According to them, Hit is using minor Time Travel and Temporal Storage. And they physically cannot be wrong, otherwise other moments don’t make sense due the abilities it grants. (Goku V Hit 2, Tides of Time as used in the ToP, etc.) However, they also can’t be right due to most PROMINENTLY Hit V Jiren, in which Vados explains by using Time Skip on solely Jiren he has stopped him in Time. This is an INTEGRAL plot moment.
Time Skip/Travel. This seems fairly obvious at first—Hit travels into the future by .Blank-Seconds. This makes total sense in the surface level, and is the basis of several moments. How Goku is able to fight Hit in combat is based on taking the counterattacking actions to punish Hit for moving as predicted within that Skipped frame of time. Like if imagine if King Crimson was tangible, and when going for a predictable strike from behind he got decked in the schnoz because I turned around and hit before/in the midst of the two moments. However, this runs counter to everything we see, hear, and is explained by Hit and others. It’s also undeniable at specific instances he has stopped time. And the time stopping also physically can’t be wrong, because certain plot reliant moments don’t make sense if it doesn’t operate this way. (Goku V Hit 1, Hit’s Assassination, Hit V Jiren).
Lastly is Temporal Storage (AKA Tides of Time). According to Whis and Vados, when Hit “skips” Time, he is able to store and keep it for his own personal use for his own dimension. This dimension manifests as a controllable Parallel World, that layers/grafts onto our own (seemingly), and grants Hit incredible capacity. This explanation is the reason why he has specific plot relevant abilities—Phasing, energy doppelgängers, illusions, intangible attacks, etc. So it PHYSICALLY cannot be wrong. However, it’s also contradictory, since—Again—Hit’s power must also be Tims Stop. Furthermore, while we’ve tried to logic out the ability, you can’t. Attempting to explain that Hit uses the Dimension for Time Skip in itself is incorrect, because it’s the reverse—Hit Skips time independent of the dimension, and then stores it. It also runs contradictory to explicit dialogue, where Hit says he never learned past basic Time Skip because he never needed to. And, again, they NEED to be correct for the plot to function (Goku V Hit 2, Hit V Dyspo, Hit V Jiren).
Furthermore, how it even relates to Time Skip is contradictory. When introduced, the Times of Time is wholly separated from Time Skip. Goku calls out how it’s different, Hit does, and Vados only ever claims that Time Skip is just a tangential means of creating that Dimension. It’s supposed to be its own thing. However, in the Tournament of Power, the Tides of Time is consistently called Time Skip. By Hit, Dyspo, Jiren—Even the Whis explanation is moments after Jiren literally calls it Time Skip, clearly trying to make what Hit is doing make sense to the audience.
These explanations all run either contradictory, create plot holes, and inconsistencies. More impressively, Time Skip is inconsistent even in singular use cases. For example, at one point Hit uses Time Skip as a Time Skip, which allows Goku to move and react to being throttled. However, it also acts as a Time Stop, as Hit was able to take DOZENS of actions to beat on Goku. However, it acts as a Skip in this moment because Hit specifically notes it is identical to his previous attack, but longer, (that attack being a Skip) but it’s also a Stop because Goku also doesn’t show any visible physical alteration (he’s in his stance as if it never happened), as if it was truly a mid-Za Warudo barrage.
Etc. Etc. It literally just doesn’t line up in any way because too many cooks were in the kitchen. You can get a much deeper read into all the gritty details over the three threads, though.
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Very interesting breakdown! Thank you very much!
Has there been any reconcilliation for this clustertruck of abilities so far on VSBW?
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Not quite. We’re still working on it in a dying final thread. My current opinion on it is it’s irreconcilable, at least in a logical way of explaining “A causing B, thus C,” and as such we should index all abilities and resistances as they appear and put a note for this decision (and any necessary compromises, like outlier immeasurable, wonkiness of resistance, etc.)
That, OR, we conclude that Hit has improved the range of the Time Skip’s abilities over time throughout the Anime (such as the final Time Skip being a Time Freeze in Goku V Hit 1, considering the Tides of Time an extension of Time Skip, etc.) Like I suggested in Thread 2/Null is currently suggesting in Thread 3.
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or we do option 3, make all of the resistances and what not a "possible" rating while putting notes explaining how nonsensical the Time Skip truly is
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That’s just option one with the word possibly in front of it.
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Does anyone have plans to make Kid Buu/SSJ3 Goku > Buuhan/Ult. Gohan in also the manga? The opposite is outdated asf.
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What are the arguments for Kid Buu being stronger than Buuhan in the manga?
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SSJ3 Goku can't be over Buuhan in the manga; he was about to get obliterated by Buutenks and he underwent no Zenkai boosts or remarked on increasing in strength at all.
Vegeta - who can sense Ki remember - implies that Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu was as he is confident that he and Goku can take on Kid Buu.
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Buuhan is unreliable as Toriyama himself said that not even Buu know his own power, plus Buutenks said that he's the strongest Majin to ever exist in also the future or even that he can beat Vegito to just add more unreliability.
Kid Buu toying with SSJ3 Goku and not being serious with him, proving them wrong.
All the Toriyama's statements.
I was only using them as counterparts, maybe a "/" instead of a "," would be better.
Vegeta was getting murdered from Kid Buu later lol. They were proved wrong, Kid Buu was also rejecting a Spirit Bomb that was >>>> all the other Z warriors if Goku wasn't receiving the last push.
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I imagine it’s the fact Kid Buu was retconned to have all the God Ki the Daikaioshin had, which negged Moro. Though, it doesn’t really matter because Super Buu has all of Kid Buu’s power, plus extra, due to being both Innocent and Kid Buu at once.
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Goku was super tiny at the time though. He didn't know he'd come back to normal size.
Super Buu still had a heart, which is explicitly what weakened Buu.
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This means nothing. Buu agreed that Gohan > Gotenks and would’ve been better to absorb for more power, but he wanted to test out his new strength. When he absorbed Gohan, he proclaimed he was “more powerful than ever before!” Meaning Buuhan > Buutenks.
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Both are weaker than Kid, so?
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Made Buu less DANGEROUS, not less POWERFUL. Kid Buu, despite being weaker, is more threatening due to his unpredictable, feral nature that abuses his abilities to mercilessly slaughter without thought, whereas Super Buu being intelligent actively nerfed his thinking processes to being more conventional.
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Neither are.
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I'm not going to bother arguing about it on here; it's pointless unless it's in a CRT.
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The hell are those scans?
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Some websites unironically have these.
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You know that even if that's true, it could just mean that Fat Buu is weaker than Buff Buu? Not necessarily that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu (plus his other absorptions) which makes no sense.
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also
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Argument from Incredulity.
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Kid Buu is said to be the most powerful according to an interview with Akira Toriyama, furthermore, Goku's Universal Genkidama was unable to do anything against Kid Buu and he was pushing (the same energy that was gathered by the entire Universe and another world )
Goku had to appeal to the desires of the spheres to beat him, and that's the only way he managed to do so.
Goku had to appeal to the desires of the spheres to beat him, and that's the only way he managed to do so.
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That's solely because Goku lacked the energy to actually throw the damn thing. Once he got the energy to throw it, the Spirit Bomb obliterated Buu.
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Next time someone comes around asking questions about time skip I say we take them out back and just shoot them
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Call it whatever you want, I'm not going to stop pointing out that it literally makes no sense.
Super Buu absorbs someone and adds their strength to his own, stating that he becomes more powerful.
Kid Buu absorbing someone and adding their strength to his own isn't going to make him weaker. Let's not be silly.
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Energy from the entire Universe and another world+ Goku's restored powers, This is too much for Kid Buu to bear
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Yeah, that's why Kid Buu died.
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This counts for Super, not Kid tho.
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Kid Buu still probably shouldn't be x625 below Super Buu tho
Since Buff Buu > Super Buu
Since Buff Buu > Super Buu
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This literally refers to purity and mind not actual physical power.
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We also can't forget that when he loses all his absorptions, Goku questions why his ki is getting bigger.
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