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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100
- Thread starter Warren_Valion
- Start date
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Do we have a speed scaling blog for toei z and GT?
QRD
Z
Base Goku / Casual weighted Paikuhan cross the afterflife : 10.750 Sextillion
SSJ Goku (pre Otherworld tournament) :
537.45 Sextillion
Weightless Paikuhan/ SS1 Goku ( OWT): 26.87 Septillion
Super Kaioken/ Max speed Paikuhan (likely): 53.745 Septillion
Base Goku 7 years later: 53.745 septillion ( surpassed everyone in the afterlife which implies superiority in base over his previous peak in power, considering this is brought up when discussing fusion that needed near matched PLs to perform)
SS1 Goku 2.68 Octilion
SS2 Goku : 268 Octillion ( given that Súper Kaioken exists in this continuity Goku using SS2 has the implication of it being faster and stronger than that so 100x base speed at least)
Post RosaT SS3 Gotenks: at least 26.87 nonillion
Post Defusion Base Goku: 26.87 nonillion
Kid Buu fight SS3 Goku: 2.687 decillion
GT
Base GT Goku: 2.687 decillion
Meta Rildo : 134.36 decillion
Parasite baby: 134.36 decillion ( absorbed Rildos power into his own )
SS1 Goten: 6.71 undecillion ( matched parasite baby in base )
SS1 Gohan : 335.90 undecillion ( matched SS1 Baby Goten in base)
SS1 Goku : 16.79 duodecillion ( stomped SS1 Gohan in base )
Super Baby Vegeta 2 : 33.59 duodecillion ( it’s his SS3 equivalent according to guides and stomped SS3 Goku as a mere SS1)
Super 17 ( pre ki absorbtion): at least 33.59 duodecillion ( no sold Majuubs punch)
SS1 Gohan / Vegeta / Trunks / Goten : 1.679 tredecillion ( even in base they expected their attacks against 17 to achieve something despite witnessing Majuub get tanked, implying comparatibility to him in base; maybe not supposing they’re dumb and are out of their depth)
SS4 Goku / Post ki absorbtion S17 : 3.35 tredecillion ( only SS2 has solid scaling above a 2x speed multiplier)
Base Nouva: 3.35 tredecillion ( ‘on a different level compared to other shadow dragons’ which would include rage shenron who stomped SS4 Goku)
SS4 Goku/ FP SS4: 335 tredecillion ( matched Base Nouva in base, if not FPSS4 is definitely this fast given he absorbed SS1 Gohan Goten and Trunks’ ki into his base prior to transforming)
SS4 Gogeta: 3.35 Quattorodecillion ( likely considering base fusions > strongest forms, even just having base Gogeta scale above SS2 Goku would make him this fast as soon as he goes SS4)
Thoughts?
QRD
Z
Base Goku / Casual weighted Paikuhan cross the afterflife : 10.750 Sextillion
SSJ Goku (pre Otherworld tournament) :
537.45 Sextillion
Weightless Paikuhan/ SS1 Goku ( OWT): 26.87 Septillion
Super Kaioken/ Max speed Paikuhan (likely): 53.745 Septillion
Base Goku 7 years later: 53.745 septillion ( surpassed everyone in the afterlife which implies superiority in base over his previous peak in power, considering this is brought up when discussing fusion that needed near matched PLs to perform)
SS1 Goku 2.68 Octilion
SS2 Goku : 268 Octillion ( given that Súper Kaioken exists in this continuity Goku using SS2 has the implication of it being faster and stronger than that so 100x base speed at least)
Post RosaT SS3 Gotenks: at least 26.87 nonillion
Post Defusion Base Goku: 26.87 nonillion
Kid Buu fight SS3 Goku: 2.687 decillion
GT
Base GT Goku: 2.687 decillion
Meta Rildo : 134.36 decillion
Parasite baby: 134.36 decillion ( absorbed Rildos power into his own )
SS1 Goten: 6.71 undecillion ( matched parasite baby in base )
SS1 Gohan : 335.90 undecillion ( matched SS1 Baby Goten in base)
SS1 Goku : 16.79 duodecillion ( stomped SS1 Gohan in base )
Super Baby Vegeta 2 : 33.59 duodecillion ( it’s his SS3 equivalent according to guides and stomped SS3 Goku as a mere SS1)
Super 17 ( pre ki absorbtion): at least 33.59 duodecillion ( no sold Majuubs punch)
SS1 Gohan / Vegeta / Trunks / Goten : 1.679 tredecillion ( even in base they expected their attacks against 17 to achieve something despite witnessing Majuub get tanked, implying comparatibility to him in base; maybe not supposing they’re dumb and are out of their depth)
SS4 Goku / Post ki absorbtion S17 : 3.35 tredecillion ( only SS2 has solid scaling above a 2x speed multiplier)
Base Nouva: 3.35 tredecillion ( ‘on a different level compared to other shadow dragons’ which would include rage shenron who stomped SS4 Goku)
SS4 Goku/ FP SS4: 335 tredecillion ( matched Base Nouva in base, if not FPSS4 is definitely this fast given he absorbed SS1 Gohan Goten and Trunks’ ki into his base prior to transforming)
SS4 Gogeta: 3.35 Quattorodecillion ( likely considering base fusions > strongest forms, even just having base Gogeta scale above SS2 Goku would make him this fast as soon as he goes SS4)
Thoughts?
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I dunno if their speed is 3.35 Quattorodecillion, but to help with the math: SSJ4 Gogeta’s power is superior to a standard SSJ4 by “tens of times.” Both in Guide and on Website.
So potentially far greater than you calculated.
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DDM told me SSJ4 is SSJ3 X Oozaru so SSJ4 is 10x SSJ3
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AFAIK we don’t really use anything but SS1 speed for multiplication, even SS2 at 20x via grade 3 is not considered in blogs for speed.
A lot of the scaling hinges on the SS2 SS3 multipliers being accepted at 2x and 4x times so maybe if they’re accepted due to DBZKakarot canon thread we can extrapolate more values off this
Its actually 80x-100x SS3
SS3 Goku < Baby SS1 < 8xSuper Baby 2 (SS3 equivalent) < Golden Oozar Goku < at least 8x Golden Oozaru Baby < SS4 Goku with the exact same base power.
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Uh, what?
It should go SS3 Goku < Baby SSJ1 < SSJ2 Baby < SSJ3 Goku (with Tail, as he returned feeling stronger and could put up a fight against SB2, though SB2 eventually won-Albeit casually) < SB2 (Baby’s SSJ3 Equivalent) < Golden Oozaru Goku < SSJ4 Goku < Golden Oozaru Baby < Blutz Wave Amped Golden Oozaru Baby < SFPSSJ4 Goku.
Edit: Included Blutz Wave Amp
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Baby literally states Goku didn’t get any stronger despite the tail.
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On this wiki you cant get a multiplier via scaling like that
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That’s how SSG was implemented SS1*SS1 via outscaling fusion
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I always attributed that to being Baby’s Ego. After all, once Goku DID become stronger than him (as a SSJ4) he profusely denied it until it became so apparent Bulma needed to amp him with Blutz Waves.
Edit: Assuming that he was speaking literally, though, that still doesn’t change the fact Golden Oozaru Baby > SSJ4 Goku.
It’s SFPSSJ4 Goku > Amped Golden Oozaru Baby.
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Edit: just rewatched the fight.
SS4 = Amped Oozaru Baby, they trade blows evenly for a few minutes and only get knocked simultaneously in a final clash, and this is despite both eating each others Garlick gun / KHH 10, the only thing that made baby stand out as marginally stronger is getting delayed damage from the KHH10 which still brought him down to a level where Goku who got hit head on by his super galick could also manage to KO him.
Second round Baby has the advantage because he gets restored by Brutz waves while Goku was just taking a nap, so presumably he got restored to his previous power, Goku then charges up his power with other Saiyans aiding him and gets a definite advantage over Baby this time eating his strongest attack without substantial damage and instantly knocking him out with a KHH10
So Amped Golden Oozaru = SS4 < FPSS4
But was even the initial SS4 we saw operating at 100% ? Goku didn’t get any heals and power loss is carries over to Oozaru as seen with Vegeta in the Saiyan saga, baby was definitely at max all times since the blutz waves were used to restore him.
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https://ibb.co/4tWrYqh (Episode 123 of Super)
Why this statement ignored to scale ToP base Goku to atleast Goku Black arc SSB Kaioken x20, since Jiren's barrage punches>Merged Zamasu attacks and the fact that base Goku fights alone side Golden Frieza and Android 17. Its seems blatant that Goku was power creeping throughout the tournament.
Why this statement ignored to scale ToP base Goku to atleast Goku Black arc SSB Kaioken x20, since Jiren's barrage punches>Merged Zamasu attacks and the fact that base Goku fights alone side Golden Frieza and Android 17. Its seems blatant that Goku was power creeping throughout the tournament.
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While they do fight evenly for a bit, it’s made blatantly clear before the 10x Kamehameha knocks him down that in that exchange Baby was losing steam due to the cost of forcing his body to unnaturally taking the form of the Oozaru. Further, it’s outright stated that Baby exceeded Goku’s power in the Perfect Files.
This is true—But then have an even exchange. Also, despite fighting at his “restored power” immediately after the boost, he is able to fight the powered up FPSSJ4 Goku when he goes all out. Meaning either his previous full power (which he had to of used, otherwise why was he knocked out?) means he was temporarily nerfed since the very beginning (which contradicts the restored statement), or Baby got stronger. The answer, according to Perfect Files, is he got stronger. (Episode 37 Summary)
“壮絶!!ベビーと悟空ダブルKO!
ベビーはブルーツ波でパワー倍増、悟空はパワーをなくし危機に。 地球では超神水による人類浄化が成功!!
Sōzetsu! ! Bebī to Gokū daburu KO! Bebī wa burūtsu-ha de pawā baizō, Gokū wa pawā o nakushi kiki ni. Chikyūde wa chō jinzui ni yoru jinrui jōka ga seikō! !
Epic!!! Baby and Goku double KO!
Baby's power is doubled by the Brutz waves, while Goku loses his power and is in danger. On Earth, the purification of mankind by Super Divine Water succeeds!“
Goku absorbs the Revenge Death Ball. This is the moment he entirely outclasses Amped Baby.
Unsure.
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Post UI 2 SSB scaling above UI 1 makes base Goku > Black arc SSB given that UI1 alone is > Blue Vegito and Base Vegito should be > SSB Goku/Vegeta from the black arc.
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The way we treat SSJ2 and 3 multipliers compared to other power scaling circles is literally the bell curve meme in action
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Make a profile for him then
Fezzih_007
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Hypothecaly, where a Toei Goten and Toei Trunks would scale, 4-A?
I need the information real quick for a thing.
I need the information real quick for a thing.
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For a VS thread?
Fezzih_007
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Profile creation, i don't how to scale this thing.
Like, this Goten and Trunks are after the Buu Saga, so should they be 2-C like the rest?
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If they scale to Buu Saga SS3 Goku and Buu Saga SS2 Vegeta then yes
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They scale above 18 who is above SS1 Goku during Cooler who is the first one to be 4-A+ in toei scale, at peak with SS1 they’re guide stated ( iirc) strongest warriors left on earth while Goku/Gohan/Vegeta were Dead/MIA which might make them above Kamicolo post-RoSAT so they’re most likely 3-C.
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Infinite Zamasu doesn't have a soul, right?
According to the toei guide, his will flew to Heaven and filled the entire Universe
According to the toei guide, his will flew to Heaven and filled the entire Universe
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Uh, unknown. He cast off his physical form and became an abstract, but there's no evidence that he lost his Soul in the process.
Fezzih_007
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Okay, 3-C it is then.
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But we know, in the guide it is mentioned that only his will flew to the heavens, technically, if your soul hasn't been defeated, then we would have to give abstract existence to souls in Dragon Ball, since it is capable of manifesting people's thoughts/ideas
Official DBS Blu-ray Disk Artbook
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It says that his thoughts flew up, not that ONLY his thoughts flew up
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Zamasu's soul was the base, trunks cut it all off, all that was left was Zamasu's will, so much so that he himself had no reasoning, soul and mind in Dragon Ball are just one thing, that's why he had no reasoning and was attacking everything without even thinking
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See your imagination
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where are you getting that Trunks' Sword cut his soul as well?
again.......where is the Sould destruction coming from here?
that is headcanon, he had a reason, to have "thoughts" you need a mind, and you said
aka by saying that his thoughts were still there, you are saying that he has a soul
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Alma didn't cut it, Trunks denied Zamasu's regeneration and his soul must have gone to the afterlife
His soul went to the afterlife
He had no reason or reasoning, after Trunks cut him completely, it denied his regeneration and killed him, his soul went to the afterlife, the only thing that was left was Zamasu's will
I'm saying that infinite Zamasu doesn't have a soul, he consists only of his will, which after he died went to heaven
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i'm confused, you very clearly said that he did cut it
"Zamasu's soul was the base, trunks cut it all off"
he denied his regeneration, but he didn't die, he became infinite Zamasu, thus his soul didn't went to the afterlife since he didn't die
if you have evidence for this i would be happy
nope, he still very much had thoughts, that is.....verbatim said in the scan you showed
nope, he didn't died at all, he became Infinite Zamasu
*Thoughts, not will
also....evidence that he went to the afterlife?
you said:
and then your scan earlier
to have thoughts, you need a mind, so by your own evidence and arguments, Zamasu MUST have a soul since he had a mind to have thoughts, and "soul and mind are one and the same"
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I'm saying that Trunks cut Zamasu's body
He died, his will ascended to his own, it was not Zamasu itself, but his pure will of order and justice
In fact, this translation is a little wrong, although it is the right idea and we don't think about it.
He died, so much so that we saw nothing more of him, his immortality was denied and he was killed, that which ascended to the heavens is only your will
Zamasu is living proof that he had no mind, he has no reasoning or reason, just attacked randomly
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He didn't die, he became Zamasu, even if you want to say that he did die tho, by saying that Infinite Zamasu is hia thoughts, while also saying that Mind and Soul are one and the same in Dragon Ball, you are saying that he still has a soul since he has a mind
It is wrong yet you used it? Regardless, show the corrwct translation then
His corpse was left on the ground.......his actual existence acended to Infinite Zamasu tho
Where are you getting this from? He didn't die. He became Infinite Zamasu
Hia thoughts, and Gowasu still refers to it as Zamasu himself
Zamasu attacking non stop is not proof that he didn't had a mind, show proof that he didn't had a mind when he had thougths
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Here
vsbattles.com
Zamasu was definitely killed when Trunks cut him, only his will existed, that know ideas or will of a being no longer considered a living being
Dragon Ball Super Anime - Zeno and Zamasu Ability
In the Brazilian translation it is said that Zamasu becoming the concept of justice and order Tradução: And it is trying to become the very concept of justice and order. Well here it is also quoted being order and justice too Here it is literally said that he became an idea It was...
Zamasu was definitely killed when Trunks cut him, only his will existed, that know ideas or will of a being no longer considered a living being
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it is never said that he dies, nothing on that post says that he dies, in fact in that post there is the Gowasu statement of him very much being alive:Here
Dragon Ball Super Anime - Zeno and Zamasu Ability
In the Brazilian translation it is said that Zamasu becoming the concept of justice and order Tradução: And it is trying to become the very concept of justice and order. Well here it is also quoted being order and justice too Here it is literally said that he became an idea It was...
Zamasu was definitely killed when Trunks cut him, only his will existed, that know ideas or will of a being no longer considered a living being
"his being remains.(Aka he didn't die, his life continued) It seems he's embraced this new ethereal state.(Aka he didn't died, he merely went into another state of existence) No longer confined by his divine vessel, he may be trying to become part of the very fabric of the cosmos. His own twisted idea of justice and order made manifest."
at best it is said that his "divine body" was "torn apart" which is true, but death is never said to be what happened to him
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