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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

Not sure if I understand why this should cause that many issues. We see DB characters physically struggle with and even deflect powerful blasts all the time. There are also things like 50% Freeza taking a X20 Super Kamehameha or Piccolo surviving a Super Kamehameha from Goku (which is stated to be Moon-level in a guidebook) yet takes damage from Goku's physicals blows.

Like at a glance:
  • Moon-level physicals via 23rd Budokai (Super Kamehameha = Moon-level, Piccolo survives it but is phased by physical blows)
  • Planet-level physicals via Namek Saga (Goku deals damage to Freeza via physical blows when X20 Super Kamehameha failed to kill him at 50%)
  • Multiversal-level physicals via BoG (Goku's physical blows caused the shockwaves and they were canceled out via matching Beerus' own physical blows)
The only issue I could see immediately is scaling to 4-B physically. I can't remember any hard instances of characters surviving 4-B attacks.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Not sure if I understand why this should cause that many issues. We see DB characters physically struggle with and even deflect powerful blasts all the time. There are also things like 50% Freeza taking a X20 Super Kamehameha or Piccolo surviving a Super Kamehameha from Goku (which is stated to be Moon-level in a guidebook) yet takes damage from Goku's physicals blows.

Like at a glance:
  • Moon-level physicals via 23rd Budokai (Super Kamehameha = Moon-level, Piccolo survives it but is phased by physical blows)
  • Planet-level physicals via Namek Saga (Goku deals damage to Freeza via physical blows when X20 Super Kamehameha failed to kill him at 50%)
  • Multiversal-level physicals via BoG (Goku's physical blows caused the shockwaves and they were canceled out via matching Beerus' own physical blows)
The only issue I could see immediately is scaling to 4-B physically. I can't remember any hard instances of characters surviving 4-B attacks.
Click to expand...
Only way i see 4-B physicals is assuming the Solar Kamehameha is a Super Kamehameha variant and then downscale 3 times. Even then it might be faulty.
 
The DBS Manga has more good examples from the Granolah Saga (Late, I know) like Gas flying through his own energy blast that Goku and Vegeta physically blocked. There's also a scene where UE Vegeta's Hakai Ball is deflected back at UI Goku and he manages to physically hold it back and deflect it into space.

From the anime if I recall correctly X10 SSB Goku fired a Super Kamehameha at Hit who tried to Time Skip out of it and Goku flies into his own Kamehameha to stop him.

Both the manga and anime have the shockwaves feat and there's no way anyone is going to try and tell me that shockwaves from mere fist clashes surpass the energy of Super Kamehamehas and Hakai Balls.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
The DBS Manga has more good examples from the Granolah Saga (Late, I know) like Gas flying through his own energy blast that Goku and Vegeta physically blocked. There's also a scene where UE Vegeta's Hakai Ball is deflected back at UI Goku and he manages to physically hold it back and deflect it into space.

From the anime if I recall correctly X10 SSB Goku fired a Super Kamehameha at Hit who tried to Time Skip out of it and Goku flies into his own Kamehameha to stop him.

Both the manga and anime have the shockwaves feat and there's no way anyone is going to try and tell me that shockwaves from mere fist clashes surpass the energy of Super Kamehamehas and Hakai Balls.
Click to expand...
Isn't there a scene where Goku uses a Kamehameha on Kaioh's planet, the attack turns around and Goku manages to defend himself?
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Not sure if I understand why this should cause that many issues. We see DB characters physically struggle with and even deflect powerful blasts all the time. There are also things like 50% Freeza taking a X20 Super Kamehameha or Piccolo surviving a Super Kamehameha from Goku (which is stated to be Moon-level in a guidebook) yet takes damage from Goku's physicals blows.

Like at a glance:
  • Moon-level physicals via 23rd Budokai (Super Kamehameha = Moon-level, Piccolo survives it but is phased by physical blows)
  • Planet-level physicals via Namek Saga (Goku deals damage to Freeza via physical blows when X20 Super Kamehameha failed to kill him at 50%)
  • Multiversal-level physicals via BoG (Goku's physical blows caused the shockwaves and they were canceled out via matching Beerus' own physical blows)
The only issue I could see immediately is scaling to 4-B physically. I can't remember any hard instances of characters surviving 4-B attacks.
Click to expand...
Yeah, physical attacks and ki attacks are represented as equals in power, i think the only problem is scale physical blows of characters like Super Perfect Cell to his
4-B Kamehameha, since he used all of his power to make the attack
 
Huesito88 said:
Georredannea is looking to re-revise the standards, it'd be best to wait.
Click to expand...
He's looking for a U turn towards old one, which was implying orthogonality of temporal dimensions to be proved, arguments in favour of it brought up, and against it, he also can't make a thread on the argument that has been outvoted for 3 months or so. So I don't think you all should wait that longer.
 
Killerdrone123 said:
toei characters are 4a is saitama really that high up in 4a
Click to expand...
Looks like I was out-of-date. Can't say I agree with a lot of the stuff I'm seeing here, really speculative while making a lot of assumptions in the process and whatnot but, whatever. Uh going with the AP scaling and whatnot, they literally just copy the Serious Punch Squared calc and use that so yeah I guess it could be a fair match-up in reality. If you use Saitama's first 4-A key and pit it against Goku with Saitama in a casual state of mind it should be fine ig idk.
 
Fezzih_007 said:
I kinda agree.
Click to expand...
Yeah I mean it looks really lazy and considering how strict Vs. Battles Wiki usually is with changes to pages, I'm actually rather shocked it got through. The fact that we can use stuff like that to make such big changes but it took years and many CRT's for Jiren to get EE resistance and Goku and Vegeta only have heat resistances in higher forms among many other things is kind of baffling to me.
 
Oh wait. Base Goku has heat resistance but Vegeta only has it in his god forms. I mean this is exactly what I mean literally WHAT???
 
Speaking of resistances why is it treated like Goku resisting Time Stop is some unique property to him? Like I can sort of understand in the anime because King Kai implies Goku was doing something very dangerous but Jiren later breaks out of it and it's stated his power (even suppressed) 'transcends' time. Shouldn't characters like Broly and Gohan Beast get Time Stop resistance for scaling to or past Jiren? I mean it's just power-based.

In the manga. SSB Goku breaking past Time Skip and moving during it isn't some sort of dangerous tactic that risks permanently destroying his body. It's just him transforming mid-Time Skip. Is there any actual reason to not think anyone scaling past U6 Goku wouldn't also have that resistance?

Any thoughts? I'm curious.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Speaking of resistances why is it treated like Goku resisting Time Stop is some unique property to him? Like I can sort of understand in the anime because King Kai implies Goku was doing something very dangerous but Jiren later breaks out of it and it's stated his power (even suppressed) 'transcends' time. Shouldn't characters like Broly and Gohan Beast get Time Stop resistance for scaling to or past Jiren? I mean it's just power-based.

In the manga. SSB Goku breaking past Time Skip and moving during it isn't some sort of dangerous tactic that risks permanently destroying his body. It's just him transforming mid-Time Skip. Is there any actual reason to not think anyone scaling past U6 Goku wouldn't also have that resistance?

Any thoughts? I'm curious.
Click to expand...
Ki users can resist heat, Buu Saga high-tier Ki users can rip portals in space, Vegito who should NOT have any additional abilities as the Potara fusion merely enhances the power of the two merged users resisted transmutation, several high-tier DBS characters resisted Hakai which they only managed to do after exerting enough power for each specific Hakai orb but were unable to handle it below the required degree of power which varied depending on the orb, etc.. There are a lot of examples.

Goku could not resist Time-Skip without Super Saiyan Blue Kaiokenx20 and Jiren struggled to break out of Time Cage but managed to after exerting enough energy.

I won't say that Dragon Ball character's can just "bypass hax through power no matter what", that's ridiculous and blatantly untrue. But Dragon Ball character's can resist or even perform certain types of hax through raw power, and that's just a simple fact proven in the series. Acting like Broly can't resist a Hakai and would just die instantly is straight-up so laughably ridiculous I can't take anyone seriously when they say it (that line of thinking and method of reasoning is precisely why no one outside of our community takes the wiki seriously fyi).

Of course, some times it's implied to more so be a weakness of the ability in question rather than a resistance, and I'd take that as an explanation over "Yep, only Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, and maybe Jiren can resist Hakai, all the other mortals just die instantly no matter what xd", let alone "Yeah base Goku resisted the heat of Beerus' Sphere of Destruction, if current base Vegeta had to face it though the heat would definitely incinerate him".
 
Last edited:
Ok I created the match up

vsbattles.com

Goku vs saitama

frieza saga goku https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Son_Goku_(Toei) Post balding saitama https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Saitama Both 4A Speed is equalized SBA
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
RinneItachi said:
I won't say that Dragon Ball character's can just "bypass hax through power no matter what", that's ridiculous and blatantly untrue. But Dragon Ball character's can resist or even perform certain types of hax through raw power, and that's just a simple fact proven in the series.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I understand it's a take that can lead to serious wank but I do feel like the way we view Ki and resistances on this wiki should be changed. I believe a Ki blog was meant to be in-progress so maybe that can be used as a platform for a Resistances revision in the future.

LuffyRuffy46307 said:
I was seeing, the discussion thread about Dragon Ball being tier 1 is 10 pages long, I recommend doing another one, no one will read it all, much less be able to enter, lol
Click to expand...
Yeah, why not? Just label it a 'Part 2' and say it was made because of the recent staff thread clarifying things. Refocusing it is important.
 
Well to my understanding that Low 1-C revision was a group effort between a few people. So I feel like we should wait for them to decide to continue it. Particularly Profectus. I think he's active in the Ben 10 revision so he probably is using it as a case study.
 
StrymULTRA said:
I thought it was rejected?
Click to expand...
No. There was a thread months ago that got moved to Staff Discussion and was rejected but this one is one with new arguments, had permission to be made and hasn't been rejected. It was only temporarily locked because the thread was getting heated and staff needed time to provide their input.

A Low 1-C revision was passed in Staff Discussion after it got locked, which clarifies things and seems to reinforce the arguments made for Low 1-C DB. So I believe Profectus and co. are just observing the Ben 10 Low 1-C revision to see how that plays out before the DB revision is resumed (either reopened or a part 2 thread.)
 
CryoTheMayo said:
No. There was a thread months ago that got moved to Staff Discussion and was rejected but this one is one with new arguments, had permission to be made and hasn't been rejected. It was only temporarily locked because the thread was getting heated and staff needed time to provide their input.

A Low 1-C revision was passed in Staff Discussion after it got locked, which clarifies things and seems to reinforce the arguments made for Low 1-C DB. So I believe Profectus and co. are just observing the Ben 10 Low 1-C revision to see how that plays out before the DB revision is resumed (either reopened or a part 2 thread.)
Click to expand...
the thread fell apart because of an over reliance on DT and Ultima statements, though i've fixed that in my drafted revison of that.
 
image.psd_1.jpg
 
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