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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

Excuse me. I'm a Dragon Ball scaler from reddit/discord who registered for an account to be able to post in the low 1-C upgrade (since it's on track to getting rejected, and I think we could take a different approach to addressing the counterpoints). May I go and post a response in the staff discussion, or do I need permission?
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
Excuse me. I'm a prominent Dragon Ball scaler from reddit/discord who registered for an account to be able to post in the low 1-C upgrade (since it's on track to getting rejected, and I think we could take a different approach to addressing the counterpoints). May I go and post a response in the staff discussion, or do I need permission?
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It's like watching a bright eyed soldier go to war knowing he may come back forever traumatized.

Also yeah, you need permission, although with that much staff disagreement, it's most likely a losing battle.
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
Excuse me. I'm a Dragon Ball scaler from reddit/discord who registered for an account to be able to post in the low 1-C upgrade (since it's on track to getting rejected, and I think we could take a different approach to addressing the counterpoints). May I go and post a response in the staff discussion, or do I need permission?
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You would need permission, you'd need to ask a staff if you could post, you should wait until more people start posting in the crt again. Otta had some stuff to say and ant was about to close it but hasn't yet.
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
Excuse me. I'm a Dragon Ball scaler from reddit/discord who registered for an account to be able to post in the low 1-C upgrade (since it's on track to getting rejected, and I think we could take a different approach to addressing the counterpoints). May I go and post a response in the staff discussion, or do I need permission?
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You need permision, admins and thread mods can only give permission for 1 post, burecrats can give for multiple posts
 
XXBenShapiroXx said:
It's like watching a bright eyed soldier go to war knowing he may come back forever traumatized.

Also yeah, you need permission, although with that much staff disagreement, it's most likely a losing battle.
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Bro you crack me up :ROFLMAO:with those counter arguments, i don't blame you for saying this lol
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
Excuse me. I'm a Dragon Ball scaler from reddit/discord who registered for an account to be able to post in the low 1-C upgrade (since it's on track to getting rejected, and I think we could take a different approach to addressing the counterpoints). May I go and post a response in the staff discussion, or do I need permission?
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Hold on. Give a brief description here of what you're trying to upgrade and how.

99% chance it will be a waste of your time and you shouldn't do it, but I'm curious.

EDIT: misread as you're gonna make another staff discussion thread. Nevermind. Although what you are gonna post could still be shared here if you want
 
Quantu said:
Hold on. Give a brief description here of what you're trying to upgrade and how.

99% chance it will be a waste of your time and you shouldn't do it, but I'm curious.

EDIT: misread as you're gonna make another staff discussion thread. Nevermind. Although what you are gonna post could still be shared here if you want
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For one thing, there’s a glaring issue no one else has noticed. And I’m not talking about a small issue, but a major one that’s making our side of the argument lose for no justifiable reason.

[Oh god, I can’t upload images]

These are the standards for temporal dimensions:

A: The relationship between the spatial dimensions of a universe and the additional temporal dimension(s) may be visualized as something akin to the frames of a movie placed side-by-side. Basically, the time-like direction may be thought of as a line comprised of uncountably infinite points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the whole universe at any given moment, with the set of all such events comprising the totality of spacetime.

This structure can then be generalized to any amounts of dimensions, and is also the reason destroying a spacetime continuum is a greater feat than destroying only the contents of the physical universe (Low 2-C, rather than 3-A or High 3-A). So, for example, a spacetime continuum comprising two temporal dimensions (Instead of just one) would have an additional time direction whose "snapshots" correspond to the whole of a 4-dimensional spacetime, and so on and so forth.

Do you notice the problem? Let me repeat what’s important here.

additional time direction

You see that word? It doesn’t say “different time direction,” but additional. If you go to the staff discussion thread right now, you’ll notice that the primary argument against our upgrade is that the higher temporal dimensions in Dragon Ball haven’t shown “different” time directions.

But that’s not how this stuff works!

The standards say a higher time dimension is an additional direction, not a different one. Princeofpein is forcing you to argue for supposed temporal dimension standards that don’t even exist! He’s sadly playing everyone for a fiddle. If the upgrade is going anywhere, someone needs to point this out. Several times, PrinceofPein has forced you lot to respond to this statement: “prove the temporal dimensions have different time directions, or the upgrade is bullshit.” No one has been able to really respond to these personal standards that have nothing to do with the tiering system’s time dimension postulates at all, yet this tactic of his has somehow persisted to the point where the upgrade will likely be rejected.

Overall, I feel like you need to approach this by explaining how the upgrade fits the tiering system standards as most of the counterpoints have been “but this doesn’t fit the dimensional tiering standards I made up in my head!” You also need to draw out several premises like this to better organize the discussion.

1. The universes are parallel space-times.

You really need to hammer in how the site has long-since accepted low 2-C/2-C macrocosms. In both part 1 and 2 of the upgrade, passerby have been forcing you to prove that the universes are parallel. This is very unnecessary, as the standards recognize this. You’ve brought it up a few times, but your words have been lost to deaf ears. Put strong emphasis on the fact that we recognize the macrocosms as parallel to prevent this derailment.

2. The neutral zone is insignificant 5-D.

Simple: point out how Ultima reviewed the thread and agreed it was insignificant 5-D, then build off from there.

3. The neutral zone, on top of being 5-D, is a spatio-temporal construct.

So many people have missed the point of Executor’s translation. The point is that “different space” can be contextualized to mean “extra-dimensional (not in a higher dimensional sense), which is further evidenced by how places like the world of void were called different spaces. It was a good move to bring up the Hit time-skip scan to prove that different space=spatio-temporal construct, but I feel like it’s better to re-explain Executor’s translation and how the takeaway is supposed to be that the neutral zone is described as a different dimension, and therefore a space-time.

- Refer to that Imgur album showing that dimension=space-time or timeline in Dragon Ball canon and Heroes.

- Refer to when Dende called the different realms in the macrocosm “dimensions that were separated by dimensional walls (fabric of space-time)” to prove that dimension=space-time, even in an intra-timeline context.

4. The alternate timelines are overarching, and also meet the standards to be considered higher time dimensions.

First off, you’ve been asked multiple times by PrinceofPein to prove that the timelines are all-encompassing. For one thing, you should refer to the scan that blatantly says the alternate timelines are “multiple pairs of 12 universes (an image I can’t post since idk how).”

Another thing worth mentioning is how PrinceofPein contradicts himself. For one thing, he says that time travel affecting all 12 universes means the time axes aren’t different. For another thing, he says there’s no proof the timeline encompasses everything. That contradicts the first basis of his argument (unless I’ve misunderstood something). There’s also the fact that:

1. The world of void exists on the timelines, as evidenced by how you can view the tournament of power in alternate timelines in Xenoverse or Heroes.

2. The alternate timelines have their own versions of Zeno, and with Zeno always residing in his palace, that would prove that both of the extra-dimensional spaces mentioned in the scan are on the timeline, thus the third one should be too (especially since the neutral zone hasn’t been depicted as extra-spatial comparably to the void world and Zeno’s palace, both of which are emphatically displaced from the 12 universe area).
 
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That was very informative @ProfectusInfinity, and yes if the thread gets running again, you can ask for permission, and comment, or i can bring up your arguments instead. Yeah i agree with you on that, pein is making up standards which have never actually been a thing on the tiering system or FAQ. My arguments are being blatantly ignored in place of narratives which don't even exist, and i do feel like a lot of people misunderstand the point of executors translations, how they are completely separate spacetimes/spaces, and in this context, space most usually refers to spacetime, and having its own temporal axis. I tried telling him that the universes were in fact spatialtemporally separate, and has been accepted to be the case for a very long time now, but he thinks theres anti feats to it, without going more in depth on that topic, and then trying to justify his reasoning with time travel which he didn't even explain correctly, I'm very surprised the staff actually agreed with him on his points like "time flowing backwards" and "universes aren't separate". Considering that we have a literal note on zenos page that says the timelines can encompass more timelines/spacetimes, yet it is still ignored with logic that is not even accepted.

​

 
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Another thing worth mentioning is how PrinceofPein contradicts himself. For one thing, he says that time travel affecting all 12 universes means the time axes aren’t different. For another thing, he says there’s no proof the timeline encompasses everything. That contradicts the first basis of his argument (unless I’ve misunderstood something)
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@ProfectusInfinity, for this point, yeah he says time travel affecting all 12 universes means there is only 1 time axis which is the main timeline, so the universes aren't separate, when im pretty sure the note on zeno's profile directly says otherwise 😂 . So yet again he just ignored pretty much everything. This stuff has been discussed many times, he just doesn't care.
 
TiltedFN said:
That was very informative @ProfectusInfinity, and yes if the thread gets running again, you can ask for permission, and comment, or i can bring up your arguments instead. Yeah i agree with you on that, pein is making up standards which have never actually been a thing on the tiering system or FAQ. My arguments are being blatantly ignored in place of narratives which don't even exist, and i do feel like a lot of people misunderstand the point of executors translations, how they are completely separate spacetimes/spaces, and in this context, space most usually refers to spacetime, and having its own temporal axis. I tried telling him that the universes were in fact spatialtemporally separate, and has been accepted to be the case for a very long time now, but he thinks theres anti feats to it, without going more in depth on that topic, and then trying to justify his reasoning with time travel which he didn't even explain correctly, I'm very surprised the staff actually agreed with him on his points like "time flowing backwards" and "universes aren't separate". Considering that we have a literal note on zenos page that says the timelines can encompass more timelines/spacetimes, yet it is still ignored with logic that is not even accepted.

​

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The new guy cooked wtf
 
Adem_Warlock69 said:
Yeah, just looked at the DBS profile, probably should add it to the other Gokus tho
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Spirit Bombs had never been seen working like that until it got to the point where DBS Anime did. That's what I thought, it's like saying that Spirit Bomb had done that to Kid Buu that even that was rejected for being just strong enough.
 
You know, it's pretty weird that we give Toei and canon the same cosmology due to how timelines work, but don't give them the same mechanics for stuff even tho Trunks' Timeline and ours basically follow the same rules
 
Adem_Warlock69 said:
You know, it's pretty weird that we give Toei and canon the same cosmology due to how timelines work, but don't give them the same mechanics for stuff even tho Trunks' Timeline and ours basically follow the same rules
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but we do give same mechanics, like the dead physiology stuff, it is just that, just like any multiverse here on the site, we don't assume 2 chars or ability from said chars are equal in different universe without proof of it, like how spiderman and ultimate spiderman don't have the same hax even tho both have the same base set of abilities, like, spider sense of one doesn't have all the stuff as the other and vice versa
 
omegabronic said:
like how spiderman and ultimate spiderman don't have the same hax even tho both have the same base set of abilities, like, spider sense of one doesn't have all the stuff as the other and vice versa
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Right, but Earth-616 and Earth-1610 Peter are connected through the Web of Life and Destiny and the Spider-Verse, and Spider-Sense is explicitly described as a universal ability derived singularly from the Web of Life and Destiny.

Being parallel worlds (ugh.), the worlds of the main canon and the anime canon are inherently distinct in nature, being that parallel worlds are the result of alterations made to the past, rippling into a butterfly effect that can shift the course of entire timelines.
 
omegabronic said:
but we do give same mechanics, like the dead physiology stuff, it is just that, just like any multiverse here on the site, we don't assume 2 chars or ability from said chars are equal in different universe without proof of it, like how spiderman and ultimate spiderman don't have the same hax even tho both have the same base set of abilities, like, spider sense of one doesn't have all the stuff as the other and vice versa
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I mean, it wouldn't make sense for a Kamehameha from the Trunks' timeline to gain new abilities just because it came from a different timeline
 
omegabronic said:
goku can feel his ki, yet he still says that kid buu is manageable, while super buu terrifies him, explain to me, how can that be if kid buu would be as strong or stronger than super buu? did goku suddently lost his ability to sense ki?


doesn't the "in every way" part makes it clear that it is not purely a mind set change but his power overall?


he said that they can't use their energy, not ki, the so called "damage energy" as said by null, is very vague on what it is


well what he absorbs is not ki so, so i dunno about that dude


why would absorbtions make him weaker? the guide showed that when he absorbed the kai he still got stronger


no, you are the one who needs to prove the positive claim that he still has that ability, you are the one affirming it, one does not need to prove a negative


nah, he didn't, he talked to him, he was threatened, launched a ki blast at his head, and after that vegeta did his thing and separated fat buu


he is the most murderous, evil, all out buu, he is the most formidable since he doesn't hold anything back, the moment he came back he instinctively destroyed the planet, you could talk and trick the other buus with words, kid buu you can't

the anime is a different continuity with a lot of differences, it shouldn't even be a bonus at all


ironic you claim ad nauseam when you are the one doing it by copy pasting the same thing again, he didn't repeat anything for it to be ad nauseam, so your critique doesn't work
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"goku can feel his ki, yet he still says that kid buu is manageable, while super buu terrifies him, explain to me, how can that be if kid buu would be as strong or stronger than super buu? did goku suddently lost his ability to sense ki?"

Most of your argument are already addressed above, if you take the time and read and understand what is presented to you. To make it short. The reason he says this is because of kid buu's physical appearance not be threatening compair to super buu, he and vegeta later admits that they underestimated him. It's a character flaw. When Super Transformed into buff buu, goku notes that is ki increased and when he becomes kid buu, there is no statement that the ki dropped. It would be a baseless assumption to assume he got weaker. Goku did not lose the ability to sense ki, he simply underestimated him.

"doesn't the "in every way" part makes it clear that it is not purely a mind set change but his power overall?"

Super Buu's physique is better suited for battle, and a soul of pure rage unlike someone like fat buu, so the ki was never stated to increase, but he would be overall stronger if he has a body better suited to use the KI HE ALREADY HAS.

"he said that they can't use their energy, not ki, the so called "damage energy" as said by null, is very vague on what it is"
"well what he absorbs is not ki so, so i dunno about that dude"

Prove that it's not ki and its something else they use when used for majin buu. And prove that it gets "converted" or "changed". Not that it would change anything even if you were to do so.

"why would absorbtions make him weaker? the guide showed that when he absorbed the kai he still got stronger"

Because Buff buu's ki increased instead of decreasing when fat buu was removed from him. If it was for that absorption, then it should not increase, it should only decrease.

"no, you are the one who needs to prove the positive claim that he still has that ability, you are the one affirming it, one does not need to prove a negative"

You are making very little sense, Super Buu, retain that ability to sense ki, you are assuming that because kid buu is different than him, than he must lose that ability when you have provided no evidence to support such nor is there no indication that he cannot sense ki, PROVE THAT HE LOST THAT ABILITY. My position is proven with super buu and has never been stated, showned or proven to have been changed. And the only time, we see a worry in kid buu's face was when goku finally formed the genki dama, something that shouldn't happen if he cannot assess and sense the power of the genki .. And before you claim that the genki is not ki , they have been used interchangeably.

We already went threw this with the "negative claim" with the blog stuff weeks ago. It's an pathetic excuses to not prove anything. You can prove negatives, you can prove that goku is not a namekian by proving he his something else. You can prove Krillin can not transform into a super saiyan by proving that he is not a saiyan, you can prove piccolo cannot transform into super saiyan god by proving he his not a saiyan etc.

"nah, he didn't, he talked to him, he was threatened, launched a ki blast at his head, and after that vegeta did his thing and separated fat buu"

He was still inside super buu's body. He has seen and sense super buu through elder kaioshin crystal ball when gotenks was fighting him. The point being , dende despite seeing most if not all the buu's including super buu, still thinks kid buu is the most formidable opponent goku faced. If kid buu was fodder, he would never say this.

"he is the most murderous, evil, all out buu, he is the most formidable since he doesn't hold anything back, the moment he came back he instinctively destroyed the planet, you could talk and trick the other buus with words, kid buu you can't"

What ???, did you correctly read the arguments that I have presented above or did you decide to ignore it ? Kid Buu held back against ssj3 goku, he was having the fun of his life. Samething with vegeta unless you think vegeta is stronger than ssj3. He even bodies this same vegeta that was in base form unless of course you think, vegeta is stronger than ssj3 in base. He even helds back so much so, that a weak santan was able to tank a punch from him. A regular human, being able to tank a punch from someone scaling above solar system busters such has super perfect cell. That is an insane level of ki control.

Also the fact that kid buu was able to suppress himself on their level so that he doesn't kill someone like santan or base vegeta already proves by itself he must be able to sense and assess their own ki. and their strength. So the idea he doesn't hold back as no evidence to support this claim. Him being more "murderous" is irrelevant, if he was weak, being more murderous doesn't change that the fact he would still be weak, . Is the most formidable opponent to someone who has witness others various of this same buu. Not to mention, when in super when goku does image training , he fight frieza, cell and kid buu, if super buu was stronger, goku wouldn't have considered kid buu to be suitable for his training. Why use a weaker buu to train if he wants to be stronger? Nonsense.

"the anime is a different continuity with a lot of differences, it shouldn't even be a bonus at all"

It is, i said if you wanna use it and in a tangent, meaning it doesn't matter. You dont have to consider it. I made it clear, i do not need it, it only steelmans my already established arguments if you consider it. Therefor, it's a bonus to whoever wanna consider it.

"ironic you claim ad nauseam when you are the one doing it by copy pasting the same thing again, he didn't repeat anything for it to be ad nauseam, so your critique doesn't work"

He his the one that keeps copying, the same first argument, that I already addressed and states he doesn't care and decides to simply ignore evidence. Quite ironic that you somehow ignored or did not take than into consideration when replying to me. Since it was already addressed, repeating and quoting the same debunked argument is an ad nauseam. The reason quoted his responds to my response, is to establish those arguments that he keep bringing up were addressed in specific reply if not even earlier. You clearly do not understand what is presented to you and are likely bias. You therefor have no meaningful knowledge to comment on that matter especially when you are arguing with me using some arguments from other people.
 
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Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
From Luffy's part, there is, not gonna lie.

From others, if there is, I think it's because many SS supporters in the past (Matthew's crew if you know who I'm talking about) constantly tried to inflate SS' ratings and to downplay DB's.

That said, I think this kind of behavior should be prevented in any way possible. I don't like Luffy's behavior in all honesty.
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If you think it's bad, just report me, I'm not doing anything, just playing with a friend, now we can't even play anymore, is that it?
 
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