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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

Creating absurdly high multipliers that can't be disproven but can't be used at the same time is my favorite DB pass time. Like I can claim SSB is a 1 million times multiplier and you can't really prove me objectively wrong but I can't really use it anyway.
 
AwkguyDB said:
Super Saiyan 3​
SSJ3 is pretty much viewed as otherworldly and is the Pinnacle of Saiyan strength outside of character specific amps and transformations being taken account. In canon with its mere power being felt throughout the Universe, the residual ki shaking the entire planet itself, in the movies shaking even the Massive Afterlife. This power is almost always looked at as a massive or impressive increase:​
​
All of the Z cast were in utter shock at the increase and incredible power of the SSJ3 transformation, from Roshi not even recognizing Goku in comparison to his prior power, Gohan mentioning that it was impossible for it to be Goku, Kibito also mentioning that his ki being felt from the Kaioshin Realm was unbelievable. (DB Chapter 474~The Limit, Super Saiyan 3)​
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That's a bit underselling the feat and not exactly the case, what Kibito says is that his power actually arrived to the Kaioshin Realm, as in, actually reaching there. Being sensed from the Kaioshin Realm is literally nothing impressive and something beings way weaker than SSJ3 can be, it's not something he would note as unbelievable.
 
Yeah, because of the size of his Ki and his power reaching across the universe, not the prospect of being able to have his Ki sensed from the Kaioshin Realm which way weaker Ki can be.
 
Broly
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Attacking in a relaxed state
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584f52b6d2135c4f8b2acc6ba2656403.jpg

62a4d52e18da7bb2acb784bca8cd028e.jpg
 
Sir_Marvulous said:
The whole point of that scene is that the individuals named utilize Explosive Power at a higher level than Vegeta and Goku. That statement very blatantly includes Broly
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What it doesn’t include is that they themselves are doing it in a relaxed state only that Vegeta and Goku’s answer to the problem is to do that
 
So just making sure but manga ver. says that Vegeta/Goku are as strong as Jiren/Gas and other strong opponents physically, it’s just that they know how to use their ki to 100% but the saiyans don’t know how?
 
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BlackeJan said:
So just making sure but manga ver. says that Vegeta/Goku are as strong as Jiren/Gas and other strong opponents physically, it’s just that they know how to use their ki to 100% but the daily and don’t know how?
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I might as well give a breakdown for how I think it works.

The clearest way I could explain it is Namek Freeza. He could go from 1% to 70% power without much difficulty but going past 70% took considerable time and energy to get all the way to 100% and from there he remained at 100% the entire time, which caused his stamina to rapidly dwindle, making him much weaker in just 5 minutes. Hit has the same issue in the manga, it was extremely intensive for him to stay at 100% power when he first fought Goku. Goku and Vegeta even have this exact issue in the ToP where it's brought up numerous times that they need to hold back to conserve power (at least in the anime).

Now imagine if Freeza, on Namek, could go from 0% power to 100% power instantly and in bursts. He could fight at 100% Power with none of the drawbacks while Goku would get weaker and weaker due to greater strain. Goku wouldn't be able to predict Freeza's attacks and then his dwindling stamina would make him weaker, causing him to then die in just one good blow by Freeza.

That's essentially how Explosive Power seemingly works and why it creates a huge gap between fighters. Most fighters can't maintain 100% for long and they struggle with entering it and exiting it. Most of the time the characters aren't even anywhere near full power, closer to 50-70% like Namek Freeza.

This is why the Androids are so dangerous. They can fight at full power constantly. A17 and A18 have infinite stamina so they can fight at full power infinitely whereas Gamma 1 and 2 have limited reserves but can maintain their full power while those reserves are active. The difference between, say, A17 and Jiren is that Jiren is unpredictable due to using his power in bursts whereas A17 is at max power all the time.

Goku and Vegeta do something similar in the manga with Complete Blue and SSG-SSB switching but CSSB requires constant focus to be at full power and risks imploding and SSG-SSB switching only works in those two forms.

tl;dr - Most characters never fight at full power because of the strain. Explosive Power lets them go full power in bursts, eliminating the strain and making them unreadable. Consider how Namek would have gone if Freeza could go 0% to 100% in bursts.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
I might as well give a breakdown for how I think it works.

The clearest way I could explain it is Namek Freeza. He could go from 1% to 70% power without much difficulty but going past 70% took considerable time and energy to get all the way to 100% and from there he remained at 100% the entire time, which caused his stamina to rapidly dwindle, making him much weaker in just 5 minutes. Hit has the same issue in the manga, it was extremely intensive for him to stay at 100% power when he first fought Goku. Goku and Vegeta even have this exact issue in the ToP where it's brought up numerous times that they need to hold back to conserve power (at least in the anime).

Now imagine if Freeza, on Namek, could go from 0% power to 100% power instantly and in bursts. He could fight at 100% Power with none of the drawbacks while Goku would get weaker and weaker due to greater strain. Goku wouldn't be able to predict Freeza's attacks and then his dwindling stamina would make him weaker, causing him to then die in just one good blow by Freeza.

That's essentially how Explosive Power seemingly works and why it creates a huge gap between fighters. Most fighters can't maintain 100% for long and they struggle with entering it and exiting it. Most of the time the characters aren't even anywhere near full power, closer to 50-70% like Namek Freeza.

This is why the Androids are so dangerous. They can fight at full power constantly. A17 and A18 have infinite stamina so they can fight at full power infinitely whereas Gamma 1 and 2 have limited reserves but can maintain their full power while those reserves are active. The difference between, say, A17 and Jiren is that Jiren is unpredictable due to using his power in bursts whereas A17 is at max power all the time.

Goku and Vegeta do something similar in the manga with Complete Blue and SSG-SSB switching but CSSB requires constant focus to be at full power and risks imploding and SSG-SSB switching only works in those two forms.

tl;dr - Most characters never fight at full power because of the strain. Explosive Power lets them go full power in bursts, eliminating the strain and making them unreadable. Consider how Namek would have gone if Freeza could go 0% to 100% in bursts.
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I wonder how the Kaio-ken will tie to this. If explosive power is the ability to control one's energy perfectly to use 0%-100% at any time one wants, combining Kaio-Ken's ability to go beyond 100% with it would be pretty interesting.

Imagine fighting Goku and all you see is a red flash before you're knocked unconscious and sent flying a kilometer away
 
Padaruyos said:
I wonder how the Kaio-ken will tie to this. If explosive power is the ability to control one's energy perfectly to use 0%-100% at any time one wants, combining Kaio-Ken's ability to go beyond 100% with it would be pretty interesting.

Imagine fighting Goku and all you see is a red flash before you're knocked unconscious and sent flying a kilometer away
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When I first heard of it back when SH released I did link it to the Kaio-Ken. I feel like Jiren's abilities in general are basically inspired by it.

Honestly, it's one of the few ways I see Ultra Instinct evolving with as well. The three clear methods I see are:
  • Instinctive Kaio-Ken (Kaio-Ken + UI to do Kaio-Ken in instinctive bursts)
  • Wrathful Ultra Instinct (Learning to use Great Ape power like Broly)
  • Instinctive Instant Transmission (Doing Instant Transmission with instinct, no focus)
And in theory there's no reason why Goku couldn't do all three of these things. Wrathful Ultra Instinct multiplying power in instant bursts via Instinctive KK and having zero-focus IT.
 

This thread here is arguing about the possibility of Third Grade Super Saiyan (the bulky, strong, but slow SS variant) being 10x stronger than Grade 2, which is obviously stronger than Grade 1. Super Saiyan 2 is far beyond any of the forms mentioned earlier.

If that's accepted, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, and Super Saiyan God wiki accepted multiplier will be increased to >500x. With Blue being increased to 25000x, assuming Grade 4 stays at 50x. If Grade 4 is considered to be beyond Grade 3 in terms of a multiplier, then Blue is jacked up to 250000x. Kaioken x20 bumps that up to either 500000x or 5000000x.
 
Padaruyos said:

This thread here is arguing about the possibility of Third Grade Super Saiyan (the bulky, strong, but slow SS variant) being 10x stronger than Grade 2, which is obviously stronger than Grade 1. Super Saiyan 2 is far beyond any of the forms mentioned earlier.

If that's accepted, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, and Super Saiyan God wiki accepted multiplier will be increased to >500x. With Blue being increased to 25000x, assuming Grade 4 stays at 50x. If Grade 4 is considered to be beyond Grade 3 in terms of a multiplier, then Blue is jacked up to 250000x. Kaioken x20 bumps that up to either 500000x or 5000000x.
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The way we treat multipliers on this site is dumb but this could be a big W.
 
Some changes if that thread gets accepted.

SS2 and above gets 500x at least, SSB gets 25000x, SSBKKX20 and above gets bumped to 500000x.

Changes in Cell Saga.
3G Trunks: >9780 QT (High 4-C)
4G Goku, 4G Gohan, and Perfect Cell: >19760 QT (High 4-C)

Changes in Buu Saga:
SS3 Gotenks, Super Buu, Ultimate Gohan: >52.65 MegaFOE
Buutenks, Buuhan: >105.3 MegaFoe.
 
If that Multiplier Thread goes through with SSJ2 = 20x SSJ then I got some nice Multipliers for us:

Base: 1

Oozaru/Wrathful (Broly): 10x

Kaioken: 2-20x

Super Saiyan (Grades 1 and 4): 50x

Super Saiyan Grade 2: 50x < X < 500x

Super Saiyan Grade 3: 500x (officially 10x SSJ)

Super Saiyan 2: 1000x (50% SSJ2 Gohan > Grade 3 Cell = 10x Perfect Cell > MSSJ Gohan)

Super Saiyan 3: X > 1000x (Unquantifiable amount stronger than SSJ2)

Super Saiyan God: X > 50,000x (50x SSJ3 ; stronger than the gap between Base -> SSJ Vegito in the BoG arc)

Super Saiyan Blue: X > 2,500,000x (50x SSJG; Is the Super Saiyan form of SSJG)

Super Saiyan Rose: AT LEAST X > 2,500,000x (Stated to be Black's version of Super Saiyan Blue)

Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken: up to X > 50,000,000x (Kaioken Stack)

Super Saiyan Blue Evolution: X > 50,000,000x (Stated to be equal to Goku's KKx20)

Ultra Instinct Omen (DBS anime scaling): X > 1,000,000,000x
(Relative to SSJ2 Kefla who as a SSJ1 overpowered SSJBKKx20 Goku)

Mastered Ultra Instinct: X >>> 1,000,000,000x
 
L
AwkguyDB said:
If that Multiplier Thread goes through with SSJ2 = 20x SSJ then I got some nice Multipliers for us:

Base: 1

Oozaru/Wrathful (Broly): 10x

Kaioken: 2-20x

Super Saiyan (Grades 1 and 4): 50x

Super Saiyan Grade 2: 50x < X < 500x

Super Saiyan Grade 3: 500x (officially 10x SSJ)

Super Saiyan 2: 1000x (50% SSJ2 Gohan > Grade 3 Cell = 10x Perfect Cell > MSSJ Gohan)

Super Saiyan 3: X > 1000x (Unquantifiable amount stronger than SSJ2)

Super Saiyan God: X > 50,000x (50x SSJ3 ; stronger than the gap between Base -> SSJ Vegito in the BoG arc)

Super Saiyan Blue: X > 2,500,000x (50x SSJG; Is the Super Saiyan form of SSJG)

Super Saiyan Rose: AT LEAST X > 2,500,000x (Stated to be Black's version of Super Saiyan Blue)

Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken: up to X > 50,000,000x (Kaioken Stack)

Super Saiyan Blue Evolution: X > 50,000,000x (Stated to be equal to Goku's KKx20)

Ultra Instinct Omen (DBS anime scaling): X > 1,000,000,000x
(Relative to SSJ2 Kefla who as a SSJ1 overpowered SSJBKKx20 Goku)

Mastered Ultra Instinct: X >>> 1,000,000,000x
Click to expand...
Look at all the colors
 
omegabronic said:
does gohan even have grade 3?
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He went through the same training regimen as Goku in the Time Chamber (which not only helped him master Super Saiyan but also unlock Grade 2 & 3) and skyrocketed to the point of being much stronger than him, so he by all means should know how to do it
 
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