Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

[Sir_Marvulous]

This was a Cell who hadn't released his full power and yet he casually had Gohan fumbling to try and awaken his hidden power. It seems unlikely that a Grade 3 Gohan
It could have just been that Cell would have easily dodged a Grade 3 Gohan's attacks due to the decreased speed, like what he did to Trunks

This was a Cell who hadn't released his full power and yet he casually had Gohan fumbling to try and awaken his hidden power. It seems unlikely that a Grade 3 Gohan could've done anything

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Because Super Saiyan 2 was stated ad infinitum to be their only chance at defeating Cell

That’d mean SSJ2 is unquantifiabley above SSJ Grade 3 it doesn’t mean it’s another 10x the boost could be 1.1 or 1.5x making it enough for him to beat Cell so there’s no statement therefore it’s not another 10x boost
I can see 2x though from statements of it being 2x and from the gohan stuff

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

I can see 2x though from statements of it being 2x and from the gohan stuff

The 2x statement says that about Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan 2 not Grade 3 to Super Saiyan 2

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

The 2x statement says that about Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan 2 not Grade 3 to Super Saiyan 2

Ok well SSJ2 is still at minimum 2x stronger than Grade 3 similar to the basis of why SSJB is currently accepted as 2500x
Since if Gohan needed SSJ2 outright to win and with half of his power in SSJ2 could still win it’d outrank Grades 1-4

 

[Omegabronic]

He went through the same training regimen as Goku in the Time Chamber (which not only helped him master Super Saiyan but also unlock Grade 2 & 3)

we know goku achieved grade 3, but the moment he did so he told gohan how not worth it was, so they should try another thing instead, so is there a reason to assume gohan learned it when goku specified that they were not even gonna try that due to how not worth it is?

and skyrocketed to the point of being much stronger than him, so he by all means should know how to do it

his base power going stronger than people who use it doesn't mean he has it

 

[Omegabronic]

Ok well SSJ2 is still at minimum 2x stronger than Grade 3 similar to the basis of why SSJB is currently accepted as 2500x

ssjb is that high due to multiplier staking, i don't see how the situation is similar here at all

Since if Gohan needed SSJ2 outright to win and with half of his power in SSJ2 could still win it’d outrank Grades 1-4

that speaks more about gohan himself than the transformation tbh

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

So is this going through or not?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

ssjb is that high due to multiplier staking, i don't see how the situation is similar here at all


that speaks more about gohan himself than the transformation tbh

SSJB is 50x stronger than SSJ which is atleast 50x making it 2500

Grade 3 SSJ is 10x SSJ and Ssj2 upscales and even with half his power gone he could beat Cell when SSJ2 was needed explicitly to defeat Cell as shown by Null if SSJ2 can lose half its power this is a feat for the form not Gohan as Gohan couldn’t beat Cell with any other form

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Okay, I'm confused. Omega is arguing against it but no surprise there, but there is other points of contention I'm confused about, is SSJ2 gonna get a multiplier or not because I think I'm seeing unironic arguments that grade 3 is > ssj2 as a multiplier which is uhh... dumb. Like I have no idea who holds what stance or if ssj2 is gonna even get a multiplier at all

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

SSJ2 gets a x10 multiplier due to overpowering Powerhouse Cell

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

don't hate the player ...... hate the developer

I know people have joked about it for years but Super Saiyan Rainbow/Prism legit might become a thing in at least one Dragon-ball continuity.

Would make a killer Skittles ad tho.

That L at the top was a complete accident btw

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

That L at the top was a complete accident btw

Fair enough.

SSJ2 gets a x10 multiplier due to overpowering Powerhouse Cell

Yeah but multipliers have always been wacky in DBZ like how Vegeta one-shot Cui despite being less than ×1.5 stronger than him and he didn't even use a powerful ki technique like Galick Gun to do so.

 

[Omegabronic]

Fair enough.

Yeah but multipliers have always been wacky in DBZ like how Vegeta one-shot Cui despite being less than ×1.5 stronger than him and he didn't even use a powerful ki technique like Galick Gun to do so.

power levels are not linear, we don't know how much stronger he was than Cui

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

power levels are not linear, we don't know how much stronger he was than Cui

I mean power levels are BS! (that meme shall never die).

 

[Omegabronic]

I mean power levels are BS! (that meme shall never die).

begining of series goku is 10 in power level, ssj1 freeza saga goku is 150 milions, doing the math pre roshi training kid goku could destroy the earth multiple times over lmao

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

begining of series goku is 10 in power level, ssj1 freeza saga goku is 150 milions, doing the math pre roshi training kid goku could destroy the earth multiple times over lmao

Seems consistent with farmer with a shotgun being easily planetary as well

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

We really need to update Super's speed scaling chain now.

 

[Quantu]

Hold on, I have a really dumb 1 am thought: since Cosmic Armour Superman's speed is unknown, wouldn't he technically incon with Xeno Goku on this site with speed unequal

 

[AguilaR202]

I'm hesitant to using characters to determine power boost because I mean I think power increases that were 2x were deemed as inconceivable. What I would love to do is try to gather all statements of every form that doesn't have a multiplier and see if we can gauge whether it's a big increase or small increase. I did some research of my own using the DB and DBS Manga to see what could be inferred. Nothing solid but info nonetheless.

​

Super Saiyan 2 ​

Consistently SSJ2 on its own has been viewed as a not too significant increase when compared to greater power.​

​

Babidi in comparison to Boo remarks that there wasn't much of a change at all between SSJ1 and 2. (DB Chapter 473 ~ Goku meets Boo)​

​

Beerus was unimpressed in the manga and questioned if that was all Goku had to offer. Later in the spar against Trunks and Goku, Beerus had to make sure if it was SSJ2 version to which Whis responded with "Most Likely" clearly showing that they don't see a huge difference between SSJ1 and SSJ2. (DBS Chapter 2 ~ Goku's Defeat and DBS Chapter 14 ~ SOS From The Future)​

​

Zeno was even confused on if he changed or not stating he felt no real difference between SSJ and SSJ2 (DBS Chapter 29 ~ Toppo, Universe 11 God of Destruction Candidate!)​

​

Only when its powered up by rage (in the case of Gohan's initial SSJ2 transformation and Vegeta's Rage against Beerus) or special training (In the case of Trunks) does it seem to garner some level of attention.​

​

Super Saiyan 3​

SSJ3 is pretty much viewed as otherworldly and is the Pinnacle of Saiyan strength outside of character specific amps and transformations being taken account. In canon with its mere power being felt throughout the Universe, the residual ki shaking the entire planet itself, in the movies shaking even the Massive Afterlife. This power is almost always looked at as a massive or impressive increase:​

​

All of the Z cast were in utter shock at the increase and incredible power of the SSJ3 transformation, from Roshi not even recognizing Goku in comparison to his prior power, Gohan mentioning that it was impossible for it to be Goku, Kibito also mentioning that his ki being felt from the Kaioshin Realm was unbelievable. (DB Chapter 474~The Limit, Super Saiyan 3)​

​

Babidi now concerned that Majin Boo, his once invincible monster in comparison to SSJ2s, would be destroyed by this new power (DB Chapter 474~The Limit, Super Saiyan 3)​

​

Vegeta in the Buu Saga remarked he couldn't even come close to SSJ3's power though he fought evenly matched with Goku's SSJ2 ​

(DB Chapter 509~Battle For The Universe)​

​

Beerus remarking that the form was a "not bad" increase on the lackluster SSJ2 (DBS Chapter 2~Goku's Defeat)​

​

Trunks mentions that the power of SSJ3 seemed "impossible", meaning the increase has to be far greater than the jump between SSJ and SSJ2 and maybe one can make the argument of being better than the gap between Base and SSJ2. (DBS Chapter 14 ~ SOS From The Future​

​

Zeno now states that Goku looks scarier and more entertaining in his SSJ3 state than in his SSJ2 form. (DBS Chapter 29 ~ Toppo, Universe 11 God of Destruction Candidate!)​

​

So overall though we don't have definitive multipliers we do have consistent responses that should give SSJ3 afar greater a boost than any other transformation prior.​

​

Super Saiyan God ​

SSJG has been pretty much the gap closer between Goku and Vegeta and god tier fighters. This power put them feat wise in the realm that was typically attributed to only Destroyers. Where SSJ3 appeared other worldly in most cases, SSJG is just in a realm seemingly unreachable (at first).​

​

Goku states SSJG is a world of power he's never felt before, putting SSJG higher than even his fusion into SSJ Vegito (only regarding to that power at the time since Vegito is exponential depending on both of the fusion participants' potentials) this should actually put SSJG at a 50x SSJ3 at least actually. (DBS Chapter 4 ~ Battle of Gods)​

​

Beerus and the other gods seem to be impressed with Goku's initial SSJG power fearing the entirety of the Universe would be destroyed simply by the mere clashing in power and Beerus touting that it has been the hardest he's ever tried in a battle (which I know isn't saying much but in comparison to SSJ3 its something I guess.) (DBS Chapter 4 ~ Battle of Gods)​

​

SSJG Goku was roughly greater than a tenth of the power of incomplete Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta in the manga and took a Goku who in SSJ was getting worn out by a Hit that clapped SSJB Vegeta to him basically stomping Hit till he increased his Time Skip abilities.​

(DBS Chapter 13 ~ A Winning Universe Decided)​

​

Goku states in his fight with Toppo that pass SSJ3 he would be in an entirely different world of power once transformed into SSJG and Beerus mentions that he's actually a match for Toppo who himself powered up with god ki from his Base form which was stomping SSJ3. Meaning the gap between SSJ3 - SSJG is greater than the difference of Base Toppo and Toppo with divine energy. (DBS Chapter 29 ~ Toppo, Universe 11 God of Destruction Candidate!)​

​

This is pretty much what I can dig up on the forms using the DBZ and DBS Manga, I'm sure there's statements and feats in the anime and the non canon material like GT and the movies not to mention video games and stuff.​

Toei verse scaling would make it so SS3 Goku is a 12,500,000x multiplier over his base form given the current scaling chain:

Base Vegeta 1
Majin Vegeta 500
SS2 Goku 500
Base Gotenks >500
Post RoSAT Base Gotenks 25,000 (50x increase)
SS3 Gotenks 12,500,000x
SS3 Goku ~ 12,500,000x by being able to hold off Buutenks.

 

[AwkguyDB]

Toei verse scaling would make it so SS3 Goku is a 12,500,000x multiplier over his base form given the current scaling chain:

Base Vegeta 1
Majin Vegeta 500
SS2 Goku 500
Base Gotenks >500
Post RoSAT Base Gotenks 25,000 (50x increase)
SS3 Gotenks 12,500,000x
SS3 Goku ~ 12,500,000x by being able to hold off Buutenks.

He was definitely getting clapped by Buutenks for the most part though, and even if, that actually should go to his scaling with his fight with Gohan inside Buu. Making Toei Post Resurrection SSJ3 Goku > Pre Resurrection Goku. That's how I can see that making logical sense.

Side Note: Goku literally told Buucolo "You don't expect to beat me like that do you?" In the English Dub

With the mere confidence of reverting to Base Form right in front of his face, Goku believes Buu is no threat. This should put Goku above both Buucolo and ultimately Super Buu in the anime PRIOR to going into his body. ofc this is if its consistent with the Japanese.

 

[Omegabronic]

He was definitely getting clapped by Buutenks for the most part though, and even if, that actually should go to his scaling with his fight with Gohan inside Buu. Making Toei Post Resurrection SSJ3 Goku > Pre Resurrection Goku. That's how I can see that making logical sense.

Side Note: Goku literally told Buucolo "You don't expect to beat me like that do you?" In the English Dub

With the mere confidence of reverting to Base Form right in front of his face, Goku believes Buu is no threat. This should put Goku above both Buucolo and ultimately Super Buu in the anime PRIOR to going into his body. ofc this is if its consistent with the Japanese.

he says that in the dub, but what does he say in the original japanese?

 

[AwkguyDB]

SSJG and UIO are next on the multiplier train

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Does ki have mass?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Does ki have mass?

I think so? Cell Max's Explosive Scream is described as like a black hole in the Super Hero LN and visibly sucks things in via its pull. So naturally wouldn't that mean it must have mass?

 

[TimmyTurnero]

I think so? Cell Max's Explosive Scream is described as like a black hole in the Super Hero LN and visibly sucks things in via its pull. So naturally wouldn't that mean it must have mass?

Can I get a scan of this?
I bring this up because they have to be at least as dense as air, giving they fall down if they’re not being propelled anymore. Is there anyway we can find the force of Piccolos ki blast? This could upgrade a lot of characters.

 

[JirensMom]

Can I get a scan of this?
I bring this up because they have to be at least as dense as air, giving they fall down if they’re not being propelled anymore. Is there anyway we can find the force of Piccolos ki blast? This could upgrade a lot of characters.

The guy gave no source so ‪take it with a grain of salt‬

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

The guy gave no source so ‪take it with a grain of salt‬

Dont think this could viably be used anyways since people will just pull the figure of speech card.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Dont think this could viably be used anyways since people will just pull the figure of speech card.

Even this is real then I don’t think thay argument will work, since it’s a direct statement. Though this will probably scale to Gohan and Cell only.

 

[Omegabronic]

I think so? Cell Max's Explosive Scream is described as like a black hole in the Super Hero LN and visibly sucks things in via its pull. So naturally wouldn't that mean it must have mass?

does anyone resist the pull of it?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

The guy gave no source so ‪take it with a grain of salt‬

If it's the novel, I have it here, but it needs to be translated into English.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

If it's the novel, I have it here, but it needs to be translated into English.

Send it.

 

[JirensMom]

Threw it into deepl and yeah it exists


“Cell Max, who had produced a super-sized ki-bullet, condensed his energy in a single gulp.

Even with his right hand, he produced a huge ki-dan.

Although large enough to be held up with the right hand, Cellmax's super-powerful, universe-swallowing, black hole-like projectile absorbed energy from the surrounding area and further increased its power.”

You should request for a translation on the wiki thread

Here are the Raws

“ 静かな声で宣言すると、悟飯はセルマックスの拳を軽く押した。
「ハァッ!」
きょうれつ と げ きょ だい はら
すかさず強烈な飛び蹴りを、巨大な腹にめりこませる。 おく いわやま ふ と げきとつ
セルマックスは奥の岩山まで吹っ飛び、激突した。
「グ、ガァアァァ......!」
うえ み ごはん いか も め 上から見おろす悟飯に、セルマックスは怒りに燃える目をむけた。
みぎて うえ のこった右手を上にあげる。
「オオオオオ......」
くうき ごえ しだいはげ ねつりょうか 空気をゆるがすうなり声が、次第に激しい熱量に変わる。
ようす ごはん め みひら 様子をうかがっていた悟飯は、ハッと目を見開いた。
「!?」
みぎ て ぼう だい ひ こう だん き セルマックスの右手に、膨大なエネルギーを秘めた光弾ができつつあることに気づいたのだ。
み あん こく こう だん ち きゅう ひょう めん ちょう きょ だい 見るまにふくれあがった暗黒の光弾は、地球の表面をおおうような超巨大エネルギーとなる。
しゅう い き だん いん りょく す きょ だい うず はっ せい 周囲のガレキがセルマックスの気弾の引力にぐんぐん吸いあげられて、巨大な渦が発生する。
「............」 ごはん どう
けれど悟飯は動じない。
えう それどころか、なぜかニヤリと笑みを浮かべてさえいる。
せん とう この じん ほん のう ご はん 戦闘を好むサイヤ人として本能が悟飯をそうさせているのか。
ちょうきょだい き だん いっ き ぎょうしゅく 超巨大な気弾をうみだしたセルマックスは、エネルギーをギュンッと一気に凝縮させた。
みぎ て も おお う ちゅう の ちょうきょうりょく き だん
右手で持ちあげられるほどの大きさだが、宇宙を飲みこむブラックホールのような超強力なセルマックスの気弾は、まわりか きゅうしゅう
らエネルギーを吸収して、さらにどんどんパワーをあげる。”

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

<Universe swallowing

 

[JirensMom]

<Universe swallowing

Probably not universe but something like “world” cuz deepl is machine translations

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I managed to get "It's big enough to be held in the right hand, but like a black hole swallowing up the universe, Cell Max's super-powerful Ki Blast absorbs energy from all around it, and gains even more power." through Romajidesu.

Looks like a metaphor.

The kanji for universe, "uchū", is there, though.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Sounds similar to the Spirit Bomb or Moro's magic but in the movie we can visibly see objects being pulled in by its gravity so it isn't just pure energy being absorbed. The manga version will likely show this as well.

As for who would scale to this? Um...possibly everyone? Gohan, Piccolo and Cell Max weren't being sucked into it but neither were Gamma 1, Gotenks, A18 or Krillin. I believe Hedo was being protected by Gamma 1 so that's why his body would be safe. The question of these being outliers does come up with Gamma 2's corpse not being sucked in so we'd have to examine that and argue whether or not that's just plot convenience (and if so, should we consider the other offscreen characters not being sucked in as just plot convenience? Or a legitimate feat?)

If we argue Krillin resists Cell Max's gravitational pull then basically every notable character with Ki scales to it.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Does ki have mass?

I mean Mr Popo literally ate a Kamehameha, so...

 

[CraigTucker]

What is y'all opinion on this: Planet Vegeta Area: Universe Special Characteristics: The home world of the Saiya-jin Events: It was said to have exploded from an impact with a gigantic meteor, but it was actually destroyed by Freeza and his men. (Daizenshuu 4, p.73) Anime: A red planet with two suns. In the television special “A Lonely Final Battle”, it is an advanced planet with futuristic cities. Its destruction by Freeza’s super-gigantic energy bullet was also depicted. https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11502 In Dragon Ball Ki Blasts are energy bullets and cleaving the earth enough or ******* with a planet's magma is implied to be enough to destroy said planet https://media.discordapp.net/attach...ts_destroying_Planets_are_chain_reactions.PNG https://media.discordapp.net/attach...mply_caused_by_cleaving_its_earth_in_half.PNG https://media.discordapp.net/attach...392925294762/Ki_Blasts_are_Energy_Bullets.PNG Scans from the Dragon Ball Z RPG book as well. https://media.discordapp.net/attach...56098321150042/Screenshot_20230218_152926.jpg https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/957868111757967370/1105256098597961808/n6me6Xi_d.webp

 

[Tipper17]

Threw it into deepl and yeah it exists


“Cell Max, who had produced a super-sized ki-bullet, condensed his energy in a single gulp.

Even with his right hand, he produced a huge ki-dan.

Although large enough to be held up with the right hand, Cellmax's super-powerful, universe-swallowing, black hole-like projectile absorbed energy from the surrounding area and further increased its power.”

You should request for a translation on the wiki thread

Here are the Raws

“ 静かな声で宣言すると、悟飯はセルマックスの拳を軽く押した。
「ハァッ!」
きょうれつ と げ きょ だい はら
すかさず強烈な飛び蹴りを、巨大な腹にめりこませる。 おく いわやま ふ と げきとつ
セルマックスは奥の岩山まで吹っ飛び、激突した。
「グ、ガァアァァ......!」
うえ み ごはん いか も め 上から見おろす悟飯に、セルマックスは怒りに燃える目をむけた。
みぎて うえ のこった右手を上にあげる。
「オオオオオ......」
くうき ごえ しだいはげ ねつりょうか 空気をゆるがすうなり声が、次第に激しい熱量に変わる。
ようす ごはん め みひら 様子をうかがっていた悟飯は、ハッと目を見開いた。
「!?」
みぎ て ぼう だい ひ こう だん き セルマックスの右手に、膨大なエネルギーを秘めた光弾ができつつあることに気づいたのだ。
み あん こく こう だん ち きゅう ひょう めん ちょう きょ だい 見るまにふくれあがった暗黒の光弾は、地球の表面をおおうような超巨大エネルギーとなる。
しゅう い き だん いん りょく す きょ だい うず はっ せい 周囲のガレキがセルマックスの気弾の引力にぐんぐん吸いあげられて、巨大な渦が発生する。
「............」 ごはん どう
けれど悟飯は動じない。
えう それどころか、なぜかニヤリと笑みを浮かべてさえいる。
せん とう この じん ほん のう ご はん 戦闘を好むサイヤ人として本能が悟飯をそうさせているのか。
ちょうきょだい き だん いっ き ぎょうしゅく 超巨大な気弾をうみだしたセルマックスは、エネルギーをギュンッと一気に凝縮させた。
みぎ て も おお う ちゅう の ちょうきょうりょく き だん
右手で持ちあげられるほどの大きさだが、宇宙を飲みこむブラックホールのような超強力なセルマックスの気弾は、まわりか きゅうしゅう
らエネルギーを吸収して、さらにどんどんパワーをあげる。”

Sounds similar to the Spirit Bomb or Moro's magic but in the movie we can visibly see objects being pulled in by its gravity so it isn't just pure energy being absorbed. The manga version will likely show this as well.

As for who would scale to this? Um...possibly everyone? Gohan, Piccolo and Cell Max weren't being sucked into it but neither were Gamma 1, Gotenks, A18 or Krillin. I believe Hedo was being protected by Gamma 1 so that's why his body would be safe. The question of these being outliers does come up with Gamma 2's corpse not being sucked in so we'd have to examine that and argue whether or not that's just plot convenience (and if so, should we consider the other offscreen characters not being sucked in as just plot convenience? Or a legitimate feat?)

If we argue Krillin resists Cell Max's gravitational pull then basically every notable character with Ki scales to it.

So another universal feat
Job well done from novel

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

What is y'all opinion on this: Planet Vegeta Area: Universe Special Characteristics: The home world of the Saiya-jin Events: It was said to have exploded from an impact with a gigantic meteor, but it was actually destroyed by Freeza and his men. (Daizenshuu 4, p.73) Anime: A red planet with two suns. In the television special “A Lonely Final Battle”, it is an advanced planet with futuristic cities. Its destruction by Freeza’s super-gigantic energy bullet was also depicted. https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11502 In Dragon Ball Ki Blasts are energy bullets and cleaving the earth enough or ******* with a planet's magma is implied to be enough to destroy said planet https://media.discordapp.net/attach...ts_destroying_Planets_are_chain_reactions.PNG https://media.discordapp.net/attach...mply_caused_by_cleaving_its_earth_in_half.PNG https://media.discordapp.net/attach...392925294762/Ki_Blasts_are_Energy_Bullets.PNG Scans from the Dragon Ball Z RPG book as well. https://media.discordapp.net/attach...56098321150042/Screenshot_20230218_152926.jpg https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/957868111757967370/1105256098597961808/n6me6Xi_d.webp

I mean if you use the game one then the attack would overcome the GBE resulting in a higher result im pretty sure

BUT DAMN WHY CANT THE SUNS ONE BE IJ THE MANGA TOO WHY DID IT HAVE TO SAY ANIMEEE daizenshuu sold