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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

pineappleman said:
Perhaps I offer a fresh view since I'm still brand new to the whole DBZ scaling you guys have been doing for all of this time, but to me it looks like you are overanalysing a simple non-complicated feat. A feat that's power is not only stated in the anime by Vegito but also Dende, who at that point served as nothing more than the writer's thinkpiece, but further clarified clearly in additional official material such as Daizenshuu 7. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you've conditioned yourselves into thinking that DBZ characters don't reach this tier of strength and based off scaling of the later series with this line of thinking, which in turn has made it hard for you to accept the feat even with it's evidence.

This feat being Low 2-C is stated clearly, it is not an outlier due to being repeated in multiple medias and the databooks, and I see no evidence to point to the contrary.
Click to expand...
No you are misconstruing an admittedly unorthodox feat by twisting clear statements.
Vegito says: "If I don't stop him, this universe will be crushed by alternate dimensions!"
The alternate dimensions are the one doing the destroying not buuhan. Then what is buuhan actually doing? Let's see what dende says:
"The extreme power radiating from majin buu is causing the space surrounding him to warp!"
So this is space time manipulation and portal creation (which is explicitly shown) and is unquantifiable to AP. This statement also debunks the theory that buuhan will open a universe sized hole for the dimensions or whatever.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
No you are misconstruing an admittedly unorthodox feat by twisting clear statements.
Vegito says: "If I don't stop him, this universe will be crushed by alternate dimensions!"
The alternate dimensions are the one doing the destroying not buuhan. Then what is buuhan actually doing? Let's see what dende says:
"The extreme power radiating from majin buu is causing the space surrounding him to warp!"
So this is space time manipulation and portal creation (which is explicitly shown) and is unquantifiable to AP. This statement also debunks the theory that buuhan will open a universe sized hole for the dimensions or whatever.
Click to expand...
Again, you are overanalyzing and refusing to look at things as they are, even though they are very simple.
'The alternate dimensions are the one doing the destroying not buuhan.' Buuhan is the one who's power is forcing the alternate dimensions to destroy the universe. Therefore it's his feat, which is low-2C.

'So this is space time manipulation and portal creation (which is explicitly shown) and is unquantifiable to AP.' Notice how in that Dende quote, it specifically doesn't say that Buuhan is opening those portals through technique, or even consciously. His EXTREME POWER is CAUSING the space to warp. His EXTREME POWER is causing the macrocosm to collapse on itself, primally. I am not twisting any statement.

Notice how the cracks in space that were present on Earth immediately vanish once Buuhan is struck by Vegito and stopped unlike the portals in the ROSaT, which didn't require continuous maintenance. This proves that Buuhan's overwhelming power was directly causing and holding the collapse of the universe, and that it wasn't going to be a matter of a chain reaction. It's a Low-2C feat.
 
I mean if the dimensions that will pass through the portals are ( large enough to crush the universe) it is a given that the portals created by ripping apart dimensional walls through AP, have to be at least universal in scale to allow them through.
 
pineappleman said:
Again, you are overanalyzing and refusing to look at things as they are, even though they are very simple.
'The alternate dimensions are the one doing the destroying not buuhan.' Buuhan is the one who's power is forcing the alternate dimensions to destroy the universe. Therefore it's his feat, which is low-2C.
Click to expand...
Buuhan is not "forcing" alternate dinensions to destroy the universe. He is forcing portals open in the space around him through which dimensions will enter the universe and cause it to collapse.

pineappleman said:
So this is space time manipulation and portal creation (which is explicitly shown) and is unquantifiable to AP.' Notice how in that Dende quote, it specifically doesn't say that Buuhan is opening those portals through technique, or even consciously. His EXTREME POWER is CAUSING the space to warp. His EXTREME POWER is causing the macrocosm to collapse on itself, primally. I am not twisting any statement.
Click to expand...
"HIS EXTREME POWER" does not make it an AP feat. You can't put an energy value to opening portals, it's unquantifiable to AP. The same way super buu and gotenks opening portals in the ROSAT is a completely unquantifiable feat but overcoming a certain threshold of power allows you to use hax that are based off raw power such as space time manipulation.

pineappleman said:
Notice how the cracks in space that were present on Earth immediately vanish once Buuhan is struck by Vegito and stopped unlike the portals in the ROSaT, which didn't require continuous maintenance. This proves that Buuhan's overwhelming power was directly causing and holding the collapse of the universe, and that it wasn't going to be a matter of a chain reaction. It's a Low-2C feat.
Click to expand...
I'm not disputing that buuhan is the cause of the destruction of the universe. I'm saying that it's still a chain reaction regardless because buuhan's power is not destroying the universe directly, it's just opening the portals for the alternate dimensions to do such.
To give an analogy, imagine a guy opening a door to a room and letting a bunch of ciminals in to wreck and destroy it by his authority. At any time he could close the door to not let the enter so he is technically the root cause of the destruction, he's just not doing it directly so he doesn't scale. It's not a perfect analogy because the destruction is more of a collapse but it illustrates the main point.
Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
A Low 2-C chain reaction is still Low 2-C. This shouldn't even be a debate.

Whether that scales to people or not is another topic.
Click to expand...
Yes it's an environment destruction feat. What I'm arguing is that buuhan doesn't scale to it whatsoever.
AguilaR202 said:
I mean if the dimensions that will pass through the portals are ( large enough to crush the universe) it is a given that the portals created by ripping apart dimensional walls through AP, have to be at least universal in scale to allow them through.
Click to expand...
That's not what happening though, that's head canon.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Buuhan is not "forcing" alternate dinensions to destroy the universe. He is forcing portals open in the space around him through which dimensions will enter the universe and cause it to collapse.
Click to expand...
You seem awfully confident in this being a reality, even though you lack proof that opened portals alone cause dimensions to merge on their own. Especially considering the fact that you have referenced Gotenks and Buu opening a portal visibly through a technique, and there being stated no such risk of dimensional merging or anything to indicate such a thing happening. Only when Buuhan uses Empty Space at an unprecedented power and level is this risk established. If anything Buuhan's feat holds much more similarity to GTku's dimension breaking feat, but on a higher level affecting the entire universe.

FluffyCreatureZ said:
"HIS EXTREME POWER" does not make it an AP feat. You can't put an energy value to opening portals, it's unquantifiable to AP. The same way super buu and gotenks opening portals in the ROSAT is a completely unquantifiable feat but overcoming a certain threshold of power allows you to use hax that are based off raw power such as space time manipulation.
Click to expand...
It quite literally is his energy that is causing the end of the universe. That's what makes it uncomparable to the ROSaT feats, and directly scaling to Buuhan himself
FluffyCreatureZ said:
I'm not disputing that buuhan is the cause of the destruction of the universe. I'm saying that it's still a chain reaction regardless because buuhan's power is not destroying the universe directly, it's just opening the portals for the alternate dimensions to do such.
To give an analogy, imagine a guy opening a door to a room and letting a bunch of ciminals in to wreck and destroy it by his authority. At any time he could close the door to not let the enter so he is technically the root cause of the destruction, he's just not doing it directly so he doesn't scale. It's not a perfect analogy because the destruction is more of a collapse but it illustrates the main point.

Yes it's an environment destruction feat. What I'm arguing is that buuhan doesn't scale to it whatsoever.

That's not what happening though, that's head canon.
Click to expand...
see what's stated above
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Buuhan is not "forcing" alternate dinensions to destroy the universe. He is forcing portals open in the space around him through which dimensions will enter the universe and cause it to collapse.


"HIS EXTREME POWER" does not make it an AP feat. You can't put an energy value to opening portals, it's unquantifiable to AP. The same way super buu and gotenks opening portals in the ROSAT is a completely unquantifiable feat but overcoming a certain threshold of power allows you to use hax that are based off raw power such as space time manipulation.


I'm not disputing that buuhan is the cause of the destruction of the universe. I'm saying that it's still a chain reaction regardless because buuhan's power is not destroying the universe directly, it's just opening the portals for the alternate dimensions to do such.
To give an analogy, imagine a guy opening a door to a room and letting a bunch of ciminals in to wreck and destroy it by his authority. At any time he could close the door to not let the enter so he is technically the root cause of the destruction, he's just not doing it directly so he doesn't scale. It's not a perfect analogy because the destruction is more of a collapse but it illustrates the main point.

Yes it's an environment destruction feat. What I'm arguing is that buuhan doesn't scale to it whatsoever.

That's not what happening though, that's head canon.
Click to expand...
Vegito literally says the universe is going to be crushed by different dimensions, they aren’t doing that if their cumulative size isn’t at least as large as the universe. and something of that scale needs an universal scale opening of portals space manipulation because they can’t pass through otherwise.
 
"I can destroy the universe with my raw power alone!" said buuhan before getting yamcha'd by a mysterious figure, his body had bullet holes, probably done by gotenks in ssj3.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
because the portal closed
Click to expand...
???

And how does that solve the issue of the portal not being large enough for the HTC to fit through them?

scale does matter because it’s not the simple opening and sustaining of the portals that is a threat, but that more and more of them keep appearing to where it’ll reach a point where there are no walls between dimensions, (hence why Dende says at this rate) and only then will dimensions rush through and crush the universe.
 
pineappleman said:
You seem awfully confident in this being a reality, even though you lack proof that opened portals alone cause dimensions to merge on their own. Especially considering the fact that you have referenced Gotenks and Buu opening a portal visibly through a technique, and there being stated no such risk of dimensional merging or anything to indicate such a thing happening. Only when Buuhan uses Empty Space at an unprecedented power and level is this risk established. If anything Buuhan's feat holds much more similarity to GTku's dimension breaking feat, but on a higher level affecting the entire universe.
Click to expand...
There is nothing that states that buuhan is destroying the universe himself in the source material or guides. In both it states that the alternate dimensions are doing the destroying so prove thag buuhan's ki is directly affecting and threating the entire universe.
? Buuhan's feat is on a far greater scale than gotenks and super buu, why would they also have catastrophic effects?

pineappleman said:
It quite literally is his energy that is causing the end of the universe. That's what makes it uncomparable to the ROSaT feats, and directly scaling to Buuhan himself
Click to expand...
It's indirectly causing it, it's called a chain reaction. Buuhan is only warping space time which is directly stated. The universe destruction statement comes from vegito who says that the dimensions will cause the universe to collapse, not buuhan's energy.
AguilaR202 said:
???

And how does that solve the issue of the portal not being large enough for the HTC to fit through them?

scale does matter because it’s not the simple opening and sustaining of the portals that is a threat, but that more and more of them keep appearing to where it’ll reach a point where there are no walls between dimensions, (hence why Dende says at this rate) and only then will dimensions rush through and crush the universe.
Click to expand...
The rate at which the walls of the dimensions of the universe where being broken down is absolutely insignificant compared to the scale of the universe which they need to grow to the size of like you're implying. Basically your interpretation does not exist in the source material, that's why I said it's head canon. What the source material actually says is that buuhan is only warping surrounding space.
 
AguilaR202 said:
And how does that solve the issue of the portal not being large enough for the HTC to fit through them?
Click to expand...
Buuhan was threatening the livelihood of the universe with his Outside Space technique because:
  1. He was creating multiple holes simultaneously.
  2. He was holding the portals open.
This is radically different from Super Buu and Gotenks' escape from the Room of Spirit and Time, which involved the creation of a single portal that closed itself shortly after. Time and scale was clearly a factor in the Outside Space's collateral damage, time and scale that Super Buu and Gotenks were not allowed.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
There is nothing that states that buuhan is destroying the universe himself in the source material or guides. In both it states that the alternate dimensions are doing the destroying so prove thag buuhan's ki is directly affecting and threating the entire universe.
Click to expand...
Already addressed, see Dende's statement.
FluffyCreatureZ said:
It's indirectly causing it, it's called a chain reaction. Buuhan is only warping space time which is directly stated. The universe destruction statement comes from vegito who
Click to expand...
Already addressed, it is not a chain reaction seeing at it comes to an immediate stop once Buuhan is stunned.
FluffyCreatureZ said:
The rate at which the walls of the dimensions of the universe where being broken down is absolutely insignificant compared to the scale of the universe which they need to grow to the size of like you're implying. Basically your interpretation does not exist in the source material, that's why I said it's head canon. What the source material actually says is that buuhan is only warping surrounding space.
Click to expand...
Screenshot_3.png

+ both Vegito and Dende immediately recognising it as a danger to the entire Universe and not just a danger to Earth like most other non-important to scaling attacks in the series, proves that the rate of the walls is absolutely not insignificant. A perfect comparison to this feat and the statements that are alongside it both in the anime and the guidebooks is the Super Perfect Cell solar system statement, which is why-
Screenshot_50.png

He is listed as 4-B.


I see that I've entered the stage where I've begun to repeat myself. Exactly what do I have to do/prove before the Buuhan Low-2C feat is able to be used when scaling other characters?
 
Last edited:
pineappleman said:
Already addressed, see Dende's statement.

Already addressed, it is not a chain reaction seeing at it comes to an immediate stop once Buuhan is stunned.

Screenshot_3.png

+ both Vegito and Dende immediately recognising it as a danger to the entire Universe and not just a danger to Earth like most other non-important to scaling attacks in the series, proves that the rate of the walls is absolutely not insignificant. A perfect comparison to this feat and the statements that are alongside it both in the anime and the guidebooks is the Super Perfect Cell solar system statement, which is why-
Screenshot_50.png

He is listed as 4-B.


I see that I've entered the stage where I've begun to repeat myself. Exactly what do I have to do/prove before the Buuhan Low-2C feat is able to be used when scaling other characters?
Click to expand...
literally, I agree with Majin Buu's up to low 2-C
 
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