Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

[AwkguyDB]

What about range?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Perhaps I offer a fresh view since I'm still brand new to the whole DBZ scaling you guys have been doing for all of this time, but to me it looks like you are overanalysing a simple non-complicated feat. A feat that's power is not only stated in the anime by Vegito but also Dende, who at that point served as nothing more than the writer's thinkpiece, but further clarified clearly in additional official material such as Daizenshuu 7. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you've conditioned yourselves into thinking that DBZ characters don't reach this tier of strength and based off scaling of the later series with this line of thinking, which in turn has made it hard for you to accept the feat even with it's evidence.

This feat being Low 2-C is stated clearly, it is not an outlier due to being repeated in multiple medias and the databooks, and I see no evidence to point to the contrary.

No you are misconstruing an admittedly unorthodox feat by twisting clear statements.
Vegito says: "If I don't stop him, this universe will be crushed by alternate dimensions!"
The alternate dimensions are the one doing the destroying not buuhan. Then what is buuhan actually doing? Let's see what dende says:
"The extreme power radiating from majin buu is causing the space surrounding him to warp!"
So this is space time manipulation and portal creation (which is explicitly shown) and is unquantifiable to AP. This statement also debunks the theory that buuhan will open a universe sized hole for the dimensions or whatever.

 

[Sus]

Didn't it also make Vegito struggle to stop it tho? That's like 3-B

But it doesn't scale to his physicals, buuhan was physically beat up by base vegito with no effort

 

[pineappleman]

No you are misconstruing an admittedly unorthodox feat by twisting clear statements.
Vegito says: "If I don't stop him, this universe will be crushed by alternate dimensions!"
The alternate dimensions are the one doing the destroying not buuhan. Then what is buuhan actually doing? Let's see what dende says:
"The extreme power radiating from majin buu is causing the space surrounding him to warp!"
So this is space time manipulation and portal creation (which is explicitly shown) and is unquantifiable to AP. This statement also debunks the theory that buuhan will open a universe sized hole for the dimensions or whatever.

Again, you are overanalyzing and refusing to look at things as they are, even though they are very simple.
'The alternate dimensions are the one doing the destroying not buuhan.' Buuhan is the one who's power is forcing the alternate dimensions to destroy the universe. Therefore it's his feat, which is low-2C.

'So this is space time manipulation and portal creation (which is explicitly shown) and is unquantifiable to AP.' Notice how in that Dende quote, it specifically doesn't say that Buuhan is opening those portals through technique, or even consciously. His EXTREME POWER is CAUSING the space to warp. His EXTREME POWER is causing the macrocosm to collapse on itself, primally. I am not twisting any statement.

Notice how the cracks in space that were present on Earth immediately vanish once Buuhan is struck by Vegito and stopped unlike the portals in the ROSaT, which didn't require continuous maintenance. This proves that Buuhan's overwhelming power was directly causing and holding the collapse of the universe, and that it wasn't going to be a matter of a chain reaction. It's a Low-2C feat.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

A Low 2-C chain reaction is still Low 2-C. This shouldn't even be a debate.

Whether that scales to people or not is another topic.

 

[Chianli]

I wonder if super buu would say "so hotshot, wanna fight majin buu" and someone be like "ayo wtf?"

 

[AguilaR202]

I mean if the dimensions that will pass through the portals are ( large enough to crush the universe) it is a given that the portals created by ripping apart dimensional walls through AP, have to be at least universal in scale to allow them through.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Again, you are overanalyzing and refusing to look at things as they are, even though they are very simple.
'The alternate dimensions are the one doing the destroying not buuhan.' Buuhan is the one who's power is forcing the alternate dimensions to destroy the universe. Therefore it's his feat, which is low-2C.

Buuhan is not "forcing" alternate dinensions to destroy the universe. He is forcing portals open in the space around him through which dimensions will enter the universe and cause it to collapse.

So this is space time manipulation and portal creation (which is explicitly shown) and is unquantifiable to AP.' Notice how in that Dende quote, it specifically doesn't say that Buuhan is opening those portals through technique, or even consciously. His EXTREME POWER is CAUSING the space to warp. His EXTREME POWER is causing the macrocosm to collapse on itself, primally. I am not twisting any statement.

"HIS EXTREME POWER" does not make it an AP feat. You can't put an energy value to opening portals, it's unquantifiable to AP. The same way super buu and gotenks opening portals in the ROSAT is a completely unquantifiable feat but overcoming a certain threshold of power allows you to use hax that are based off raw power such as space time manipulation.

Notice how the cracks in space that were present on Earth immediately vanish once Buuhan is struck by Vegito and stopped unlike the portals in the ROSaT, which didn't require continuous maintenance. This proves that Buuhan's overwhelming power was directly causing and holding the collapse of the universe, and that it wasn't going to be a matter of a chain reaction. It's a Low-2C feat.

I'm not disputing that buuhan is the cause of the destruction of the universe. I'm saying that it's still a chain reaction regardless because buuhan's power is not destroying the universe directly, it's just opening the portals for the alternate dimensions to do such.
To give an analogy, imagine a guy opening a door to a room and letting a bunch of ciminals in to wreck and destroy it by his authority. At any time he could close the door to not let the enter so he is technically the root cause of the destruction, he's just not doing it directly so he doesn't scale. It's not a perfect analogy because the destruction is more of a collapse but it illustrates the main point.

A Low 2-C chain reaction is still Low 2-C. This shouldn't even be a debate.

Whether that scales to people or not is another topic.

Yes it's an environment destruction feat. What I'm arguing is that buuhan doesn't scale to it whatsoever.

I mean if the dimensions that will pass through the portals are ( large enough to crush the universe) it is a given that the portals created by ripping apart dimensional walls through AP, have to be at least universal in scale to allow them through.

That's not what happening though, that's head canon.

 

[Aachintya31]

The same guys who denies the feat says GoD Toppo > 3 GoDs

 

[Shubham_Sonsurkar]

so is it 3A/low 2-C via hax or am I getting things wrong?

 

[Aachintya31]

so is it 3A/low 2-C via hax or am I getting things wrong?

3A Via Environmental Destruction

 

[pineappleman]

Buuhan is not "forcing" alternate dinensions to destroy the universe. He is forcing portals open in the space around him through which dimensions will enter the universe and cause it to collapse.

You seem awfully confident in this being a reality, even though you lack proof that opened portals alone cause dimensions to merge on their own. Especially considering the fact that you have referenced Gotenks and Buu opening a portal visibly through a technique, and there being stated no such risk of dimensional merging or anything to indicate such a thing happening. Only when Buuhan uses Empty Space at an unprecedented power and level is this risk established. If anything Buuhan's feat holds much more similarity to GTku's dimension breaking feat, but on a higher level affecting the entire universe.

"HIS EXTREME POWER" does not make it an AP feat. You can't put an energy value to opening portals, it's unquantifiable to AP. The same way super buu and gotenks opening portals in the ROSAT is a completely unquantifiable feat but overcoming a certain threshold of power allows you to use hax that are based off raw power such as space time manipulation.

It quite literally is his energy that is causing the end of the universe. That's what makes it uncomparable to the ROSaT feats, and directly scaling to Buuhan himself

I'm not disputing that buuhan is the cause of the destruction of the universe. I'm saying that it's still a chain reaction regardless because buuhan's power is not destroying the universe directly, it's just opening the portals for the alternate dimensions to do such.
To give an analogy, imagine a guy opening a door to a room and letting a bunch of ciminals in to wreck and destroy it by his authority. At any time he could close the door to not let the enter so he is technically the root cause of the destruction, he's just not doing it directly so he doesn't scale. It's not a perfect analogy because the destruction is more of a collapse but it illustrates the main point.

Yes it's an environment destruction feat. What I'm arguing is that buuhan doesn't scale to it whatsoever.

That's not what happening though, that's head canon.

see what's stated above

 

[AguilaR202]

Buuhan is not "forcing" alternate dinensions to destroy the universe. He is forcing portals open in the space around him through which dimensions will enter the universe and cause it to collapse.


"HIS EXTREME POWER" does not make it an AP feat. You can't put an energy value to opening portals, it's unquantifiable to AP. The same way super buu and gotenks opening portals in the ROSAT is a completely unquantifiable feat but overcoming a certain threshold of power allows you to use hax that are based off raw power such as space time manipulation.


I'm not disputing that buuhan is the cause of the destruction of the universe. I'm saying that it's still a chain reaction regardless because buuhan's power is not destroying the universe directly, it's just opening the portals for the alternate dimensions to do such.
To give an analogy, imagine a guy opening a door to a room and letting a bunch of ciminals in to wreck and destroy it by his authority. At any time he could close the door to not let the enter so he is technically the root cause of the destruction, he's just not doing it directly so he doesn't scale. It's not a perfect analogy because the destruction is more of a collapse but it illustrates the main point.

Yes it's an environment destruction feat. What I'm arguing is that buuhan doesn't scale to it whatsoever.

That's not what happening though, that's head canon.

Vegito literally says the universe is going to be crushed by different dimensions, they aren’t doing that if their cumulative size isn’t at least as large as the universe. and something of that scale needs an universal scale opening of portals space manipulation because they can’t pass through otherwise.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

something of that scale needs an universal scale opening of portals space manipulation because they can’t pass through otherwise.

According to who?

 

[AguilaR202]

According to who?

The HTC didn’t slip through the small portal created, why would they suddenly fit into portals smaller than there are?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The HTC didn’t slip through the small portal created

because the portal closed

 

[Chianli]

"I can destroy the universe with my raw power alone!" said buuhan before getting yamcha'd by a mysterious figure, his body had bullet holes, probably done by gotenks in ssj3.

 

[pineappleman]

because the portal closed

headcanon backed by headcanon lol

 

[AguilaR202]

because the portal closed

???

And how does that solve the issue of the portal not being large enough for the HTC to fit through them?

scale does matter because it’s not the simple opening and sustaining of the portals that is a threat, but that more and more of them keep appearing to where it’ll reach a point where there are no walls between dimensions, (hence why Dende says at this rate) and only then will dimensions rush through and crush the universe.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

You seem awfully confident in this being a reality, even though you lack proof that opened portals alone cause dimensions to merge on their own. Especially considering the fact that you have referenced Gotenks and Buu opening a portal visibly through a technique, and there being stated no such risk of dimensional merging or anything to indicate such a thing happening. Only when Buuhan uses Empty Space at an unprecedented power and level is this risk established. If anything Buuhan's feat holds much more similarity to GTku's dimension breaking feat, but on a higher level affecting the entire universe.

There is nothing that states that buuhan is destroying the universe himself in the source material or guides. In both it states that the alternate dimensions are doing the destroying so prove thag buuhan's ki is directly affecting and threating the entire universe.
? Buuhan's feat is on a far greater scale than gotenks and super buu, why would they also have catastrophic effects?

It quite literally is his energy that is causing the end of the universe. That's what makes it uncomparable to the ROSaT feats, and directly scaling to Buuhan himself

It's indirectly causing it, it's called a chain reaction. Buuhan is only warping space time which is directly stated. The universe destruction statement comes from vegito who says that the dimensions will cause the universe to collapse, not buuhan's energy.

???

And how does that solve the issue of the portal not being large enough for the HTC to fit through them?

scale does matter because it’s not the simple opening and sustaining of the portals that is a threat, but that more and more of them keep appearing to where it’ll reach a point where there are no walls between dimensions, (hence why Dende says at this rate) and only then will dimensions rush through and crush the universe.

The rate at which the walls of the dimensions of the universe where being broken down is absolutely insignificant compared to the scale of the universe which they need to grow to the size of like you're implying. Basically your interpretation does not exist in the source material, that's why I said it's head canon. What the source material actually says is that buuhan is only warping surrounding space.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

And how does that solve the issue of the portal not being large enough for the HTC to fit through them?

Buuhan was threatening the livelihood of the universe with his Outside Space technique because:

1. He was creating multiple holes simultaneously.
2. He was holding the portals open.

This is radically different from Super Buu and Gotenks' escape from the Room of Spirit and Time, which involved the creation of a single portal that closed itself shortly after. Time and scale was clearly a factor in the Outside Space's collateral damage, time and scale that Super Buu and Gotenks were not allowed.

 

[Vizer04]

The way the TV anime profiles are handled is absolutely ******* horrendous. All of the pages are outdated and were obviously neglected the same "quality control" that the mainstream pages were given.

No, that was before. We are currently working on the Toei profiles, here's the thread.

 

[pineappleman]

There is nothing that states that buuhan is destroying the universe himself in the source material or guides. In both it states that the alternate dimensions are doing the destroying so prove thag buuhan's ki is directly affecting and threating the entire universe.

Already addressed, see Dende's statement.

It's indirectly causing it, it's called a chain reaction. Buuhan is only warping space time which is directly stated. The universe destruction statement comes from vegito who

Already addressed, it is not a chain reaction seeing at it comes to an immediate stop once Buuhan is stunned.

The rate at which the walls of the dimensions of the universe where being broken down is absolutely insignificant compared to the scale of the universe which they need to grow to the size of like you're implying. Basically your interpretation does not exist in the source material, that's why I said it's head canon. What the source material actually says is that buuhan is only warping surrounding space.

+ both Vegito and Dende immediately recognising it as a danger to the entire Universe and not just a danger to Earth like most other non-important to scaling attacks in the series, proves that the rate of the walls is absolutely not insignificant. A perfect comparison to this feat and the statements that are alongside it both in the anime and the guidebooks is the Super Perfect Cell solar system statement, which is why-

He is listed as 4-B.


I see that I've entered the stage where I've begun to repeat myself. Exactly what do I have to do/prove before the Buuhan Low-2C feat is able to be used when scaling other characters?

 

[Spinoirr]

Made a basketball game in fun and games where cell is ballin

 

[speedster352]

Made a basketball game in fun and games where cell is ballin

How is your db fusion tournament?

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

wouldn't this imply fused zamasu (manga) to be uni+ since it implies he is going to destroy timelines and while it is likely he is referring to individual ones per fz it would still be low 2c, no?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

"Destroy", as in rid the entire world of humanity and reduce the lands to waste, as he had done with Future Trunks' world.

 

[sanicspood]

wouldn't this imply fused zamasu (manga) to be uni+ since it implies he is going to destroy timelines and while it is likely he is referring to individual ones per fz it would still be low 2c, no?

destroying timelines directly goes agaisnt his main plan in general

 

[Nullflowerblush]

"This means the Zero Mortal Project can be executed even in the past! And to start, I shall visit the world where you all came from and terminate mankind there!"

 

[Quantu]

Context is key. Why would Zamasu destroy what he cherishes that is destroyed by the Mortals

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Already addressed, see Dende's statement.

Already addressed, it is not a chain reaction seeing at it comes to an immediate stop once Buuhan is stunned.

+ both Vegito and Dende immediately recognising it as a danger to the entire Universe and not just a danger to Earth like most other non-important to scaling attacks in the series, proves that the rate of the walls is absolutely not insignificant. A perfect comparison to this feat and the statements that are alongside it both in the anime and the guidebooks is the Super Perfect Cell solar system statement, which is why-

He is listed as 4-B.


I see that I've entered the stage where I've begun to repeat myself. Exactly what do I have to do/prove before the Buuhan Low-2C feat is able to be used when scaling other characters?

literally, I agree with Majin Buu's up to low 2-C

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Wouldn't it be 3-A?

 

[pineappleman]

Wouldn't it be 3-A?

Why?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Why?

Why would it be Low 2-C?

 

[Sus]

Because time was mentioned silly wiki standards

 

[Sus]

Because time was mentioned silly wiki standards

Silly was supposed to be crossed out too but it works either ways

 

[pineappleman]

Why would it be Low 2-C?

The living world alone is infinite, and the universe (macrocosm) includes the afterlife (Heaven and Hell which are also stated to be universe sized). Why wouldn't it be Low-2C?

Really, a 2C argument could be made

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

The living world alone is infinite, and the universe (macrocosm) includes the afterlife (Heaven and Hell which are also stated to be universe sized). Why wouldn't it be Low-2C?

Pretty sure Buuhan's thing was only going to destroy the living world, plus destroying the entire macrocosm isn't Low 2-C by itself (BoG)

 

[Nullflowerblush]

we don't think very critically here.

 

[pineappleman]

Pretty sure Buuhan's thing was only going to destroy the living world,