Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

[Antvasima]

@RedReaper616

There seems to be a new reply here:

Antvasima

community.fandom.com

 

[RedReaper616]

Typically Koyama’s Word/Tweets aren’t allowed as full proof of anything on VSBW, hence why Hideki Kamiya literally confirming Mundus made a Universe on Twitter wasn’t enough of a justification for DMC until we found another scan corroborating it, so that’s literally just a difference in allowed information. Two, the tweet he utilizes is doing something we already respect, which is ignoring/not asking for consistency between the films and anime due to the work environment they suffered through.

It’s also for these reasons we rejected the Metal Cooler upgrade thread, as it relied on using contradictions born from the films to attempt to rationalize an upgrade for the character. Furthermore, we do not pretend these plot breaking contradictions make sense. Like we acknowledge with Dead Zone and Revenge of Cooler (as well as Fusion Reborn and Wrath of the Dragon), their plots despite being explicitly to implicitly confirmed to be canon to the Toei Continuity also makes no functional sense due to elements like Garlic Jr’s wish, Gohan meeting the Z-Fighters and knowing Goku is his father, Cooler attacking in the era of peace, etc.

In fact, the intent is to explicitly operate within the confines of the films, their supplementary material, and their relationship to the anime through scaling in ways that only make sense within the anime’s pre-existing logic.

He also doubles down on Pikkon being retconned, when that’s not at all evidenced, as I mentioned before. Whilst yes, it is out of character for Pikkon not to respond to a Hell Riot, him not appearing doesn’t mean he doesn’t exist. It means he simply did not appear within this facet of the story. Also, him appearing would be suspect regardless as this isn’t a standard Hell Riot, and is instead escaping DIRECTLY into the Living World, which isn’t what Pikkon deals with. He deals with attempts to break out within Otherworld.

Also, yes, GT does have a contradiction with Android Ki (of which I only learned yesterday), which we’ve yet to discuss to figure out how to quantify.

The immortality of those in the Afterlife only exists while they’re in their Afterlife, (hence why they can be killed again in Fusion Reborn and GT whilst the Afterlife is broken by the Heroes), with the immortality they have not originating from GT, but Z—Episode 55—And simply part of how inconsistent Toei is, trying to have its cake and eat it too. This is very similar to how we simply gave up trying to reconcile (Anime) Time Skip, in which it displays both Slow and Stop properties with no way of properly putting together the contradictions/inconsistencies in such a way that that simply has woven nonsense in between the gaps of the Original Manga’s canon.

Citing the Daizenshuu is ineffective, because the Daizenshuu was made before GT.

He (Shin) also claims that the Broly scan literally saying it’s a whole new Broly matters not because it talks about old Broly, but that’s still not comparable. Again, the GT Dragon Book is pretty clear. I’d also be remiss to include the World Of Toriyama Timeline, as it literally has Super and GT co-existing as the same Timeline/History, which is not possible.

The only one that matters to truly “debunk” it is Chouzenshuu, which copy and pasted the Daizenshuu Timeline and added solely the events of Battle of Gods and GT, down to Cooler and Garlic Jr. Which doesn’t make functional sense, as BoG was made with the intent of continuing the “world of the manga,” by Toriyama’s own admission.

This is backed up by a Press Release, citing it is not a Spin-off, Side-Story, etc. and is apart of the official history.

This is especially relevant when you consider the Daizenshuu Timeline itself also makes no sense, since it canonizes Garlic Jr., Cooler, and the Beginning of Eradication of the Saiyans. All things that literally aren’t present in the actual Manga Canon and makes no sense to exist. As I noted before—Lots of contradictions with us to pick up the pieces—To try and make sense of the story.

Also, he operates under the assumption we haven’t altered the canon of Super to more closely align with what we believe—That given the multitude of flashbacks, footage reuse, and more, that Super stands as a continuation of the DBZ: Kai anime rather than the original Manga. This, again, points to a difference in thinking. We strongly believe that repeated cameos and references in this way makes a strong case (and has been accepted), he simply does not.

Moreover, even if I conceded this is all bumpkis, his ‘debunk’ did not cover how all the films connect to each other (as they themselves cite in their Pamphlets, Anime Film Comics, etc.), and thus would be indirectly canonized anyway. Hence why my Blog covered the topic from every angle. The films being connected to such a degree means one being canonized means all are canonized. The anime directly connects itself to all through Fusion Reborn. Film elements on their own repeatedly appear. Etc. Etc.

He goes on to say the Daizenshuu Timeline and appearance of solely Cooler means only Cooler, electing to ignore the actual information from the scan in question—The narrative intent by the creators of GT to have the films be apart of the history of Dragon Ball.

The false equivalence bit seems to be disingenuous to me. Series like DBH/DBXV, and more that fall into those continuities are known for using information from across multiple known to be separate series for their story, as their story exists as a melting pot of all Dragon Ball content. Whether that be the DBS Anime, the DBS Manga, the Z films, DBL, Dokkan, etc. Comparing that to things known to be connected (Z and GT) and the stories known to be connected to each (Garlic Jr., Cooler for Z, indirectly connecting the rest, WotD, FR for GT, indirectly connecting the rest) seems fallacious. Of course DBS Anime Goku can use DBS Manga Goku’s Hakai, there (in SDBH). Because their sense of canon is just “literally everything, regardless of the amount of sense it makes.”

That said, I agree with him in the end—We should not be having proxy battles, connecting to the owner of VSBW for that matter (bothering them with something beneath their purview), nor copy and pasting a person’s blog to post off-site (without crediting until he wanted a ‘debunk’ for himself to use because he was being argued against? To my confusion?) or what-have-you. Frankly, I don’t understand the purpose of doing so. Our Wikis work entirely differently, strive for different goals, and thus cannot be compared to or against each other.

 

[BlackeJan]

Ya know now that I think about it. Goku could had dealt with the stamina issue with SSJ3 after Buu saga. He didn’t have to take a long time to power up for it against Beerus and even going against Trunks it took like 5s for it to happen

 

[Ednaxel2]

Ya know now that I think about it. Goku could had dealt with the stamina issue with SSJ3 after Buu saga. He didn’t have to take a long time to power up for it against Beerus and even going against Trunks it took like 5s for it to happen

I'm pretty sure he said he did? Or smth along the lines

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Dose anyone know where that thread was that connected super to Kia? I would like to read through it

 

[Antvasima]

Typically Koyama’s Word/Tweets aren’t allowed as full proof of anything on VSBW, hence why Hideki Kamiya literally confirming Mundus made a Universe on Twitter wasn’t enough of a justification for DMC until we found another scan corroborating it, so that’s literally just a difference in allowed information. Two, the tweet he utilizes is doing something we already respect, which is ignoring/not asking for consistency between the films and anime due to the work environment they suffered through.

It’s also for these reasons we rejected the Metal Cooler upgrade thread, as it relied on using contradictions born from the films to attempt to rationalize an upgrade for the character. Furthermore, we do not pretend these plot breaking contradictions make sense. Like we acknowledge with Dead Zone and Revenge of Cooler (as well as Fusion Reborn and Wrath of the Dragon), their plots despite being explicitly to implicitly confirmed to be canon to the Toei Continuity also makes no functional sense due to elements like Garlic Jr’s wish, Gohan meeting the Z-Fighters and knowing Goku is his father, Cooler attacking in the era of peace, etc.

In fact, the intent is to explicitly operate within the confines of the films, their supplementary material, and their relationship to the anime through scaling in ways that only make sense within the anime’s pre-existing logic.

He also doubles down on Pikkon being retconned, when that’s not at all evidenced, as I mentioned before. Whilst yes, it is out of character for Pikkon not to respond to a Hell Riot, him not appearing doesn’t mean he doesn’t exist. It means he simply did not appear within this facet of the story. Also, him appearing would be suspect regardless as this isn’t a standard Hell Riot, and is instead escaping DIRECTLY into the Living World, which isn’t what Pikkon deals with. He deals with attempts to break out within Otherworld.

Also, yes, GT does have a contradiction with Android Ki (of which I only learned yesterday), which we’ve yet to discuss to figure out how to quantify.

The immortality of those in the Afterlife only exists while they’re in their Afterlife, (hence why they can be killed again in Fusion Reborn and GT whilst the Afterlife is broken by the Heroes), with the immortality they have not originating from GT, but Z—Episode 55—And simply part of how inconsistent Toei is, trying to have its cake and eat it too. This is very similar to how we simply gave up trying to reconcile (Anime) Time Skip, in which it displays both Slow and Stop properties with no way of properly putting together the contradictions/inconsistencies in such a way that that simply has woven nonsense in between the gaps of the Original Manga’s canon.

Citing the Daizenshuu is ineffective, because the Daizenshuu was made before GT.

He (Shin) also claims that the Broly scan literally saying it’s a whole new Broly matters not because it talks about old Broly, but that’s still not comparable. Again, the GT Dragon Book is pretty clear. I’d also be remiss to include the World Of Toriyama Timeline, as it literally has Super and GT co-existing as the same Timeline/History, which is not possible.

The only one that matters to truly “debunk” it is Chouzenshuu, which copy and pasted the Daizenshuu Timeline and added solely the events of Battle of Gods and GT, down to Cooler and Garlic Jr. Which doesn’t make functional sense, as BoG was made with the intent of continuing the “world of the manga,” by Toriyama’s own admission.

This is backed up by a Press Release, citing it is not a Spin-off, Side-Story, etc. and is apart of the official history.

This is especially relevant when you consider the Daizenshuu Timeline itself also makes no sense, since it canonizes Garlic Jr., Cooler, and the Beginning of Eradication of the Saiyans. All things that literally aren’t present in the actual Manga Canon and makes no sense to exist. As I noted before—Lots of contradictions with us to pick up the pieces—To try and make sense of the story.

Also, he operates under the assumption we haven’t altered the canon of Super to more closely align with what we believe—That given the multitude of flashbacks, footage reuse, and more, that Super stands as a continuation of the DBZ: Kai anime rather than the original Manga. This, again, points to a difference in thinking. We strongly believe that repeated cameos and references in this way makes a strong case (and has been accepted), he simply does not.

Moreover, even if I conceded this is all bumpkis, his ‘debunk’ did not cover how all the films connect to each other (as they themselves cite in their Pamphlets, Anime Film Comics, etc.), and thus would be indirectly canonized anyway. Hence why my Blog covered the topic from every angle. The films being connected to such a degree means one being canonized means all are canonized. The anime directly connects itself to all through Fusion Reborn. Film elements on their own repeatedly appear. Etc. Etc.

He goes on to say the Daizenshuu Timeline and appearance of solely Cooler means only Cooler, electing to ignore the actual information from the scan in question—The narrative intent by the creators of GT to have the films be apart of the history of Dragon Ball.

The false equivalence bit seems to be disingenuous to me. Series like DBH/DBXV, and more that fall into those continuities are known for using information from across multiple known to be separate series for their story, as their story exists as a melting pot of all Dragon Ball content. Whether that be the DBS Anime, the DBS Manga, the Z films, DBL, Dokkan, etc. Comparing that to things known to be connected (Z and GT) and the stories known to be connected to each (Garlic Jr., Cooler for Z, indirectly connecting the rest, WotD, FR for GT, indirectly connecting the rest) seems fallacious. Of course DBS Anime Goku can use DBS Manga Goku’s Hakai, there (in SDBH). Because their sense of canon is just “literally everything, regardless of the amount of sense it makes.”

That said, I agree with him in the end—We should not be having proxy battles, connecting to the owner of VSBW for that matter (bothering them with something beneath their purview), nor copy and pasting a person’s blog to post off-site (without crediting until he wanted a ‘debunk’ for himself to use because he was being argued against? To my confusion?) or what-have-you. Frankly, I don’t understand the purpose of doing so. Our Wikis work entirely differently, strive for different goals, and thus cannot be compared to or against each other.

I think that your reasoning makes sense. Thank you for helping out.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@RedReaper616

There seems to be a new reply here:

Antvasima

community.fandom.com

Ant, these are off-sites arguments that almost certainly do not entertain our standards. The user in question did a copy-paste (on which he didn't even give credit to RedReaper) to stirr the pot in another wiki. Continuing to give it attention is a genuine waste of time.

Edit: Correction, he credited Reaper in his second response to the "debunks"

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. My apologies. I will stop responding to the pot-stirrer then.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Dose anyone know where that thread was that connected super to Kia? I would like to read through it

To be canon or not to be that is the question.A Dragon ball Super revision

Well hello everyone I am back with another crt the objective of this crt would be to prove why DBZ Kai is canon to DBS anime First let me lay some base for the argument in Dragon ball Super we can see them using flash backs from the anime for some scenes in super 1)In Dragon ball super...

vsbattles.com

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Typically Koyama’s Word/Tweets aren’t allowed as full proof of anything on VSBW, hence why Hideki Kamiya literally confirming Mundus made a Universe on Twitter wasn’t enough of a justification for DMC until we found another scan corroborating it, so that’s literally just a difference in allowed information. Two, the tweet he utilizes is doing something we already respect, which is ignoring/not asking for consistency between the films and anime due to the work environment they suffered through.

It’s also for these reasons we rejected the Metal Cooler upgrade thread, as it relied on using contradictions born from the films to attempt to rationalize an upgrade for the character. Furthermore, we do not pretend these plot breaking contradictions make sense. Like we acknowledge with Dead Zone and Revenge of Cooler (as well as Fusion Reborn and Wrath of the Dragon), their plots despite being explicitly to implicitly confirmed to be canon to the Toei Continuity also makes no functional sense due to elements like Garlic Jr’s wish, Gohan meeting the Z-Fighters and knowing Goku is his father, Cooler attacking in the era of peace, etc.

In fact, the intent is to explicitly operate within the confines of the films, their supplementary material, and their relationship to the anime through scaling in ways that only make sense within the anime’s pre-existing logic.

He also doubles down on Pikkon being retconned, when that’s not at all evidenced, as I mentioned before. Whilst yes, it is out of character for Pikkon not to respond to a Hell Riot, him not appearing doesn’t mean he doesn’t exist. It means he simply did not appear within this facet of the story. Also, him appearing would be suspect regardless as this isn’t a standard Hell Riot, and is instead escaping DIRECTLY into the Living World, which isn’t what Pikkon deals with. He deals with attempts to break out within Otherworld.

Also, yes, GT does have a contradiction with Android Ki (of which I only learned yesterday), which we’ve yet to discuss to figure out how to quantify.

The immortality of those in the Afterlife only exists while they’re in their Afterlife, (hence why they can be killed again in Fusion Reborn and GT whilst the Afterlife is broken by the Heroes), with the immortality they have not originating from GT, but Z—Episode 55—And simply part of how inconsistent Toei is, trying to have its cake and eat it too. This is very similar to how we simply gave up trying to reconcile (Anime) Time Skip, in which it displays both Slow and Stop properties with no way of properly putting together the contradictions/inconsistencies in such a way that that simply has woven nonsense in between the gaps of the Original Manga’s canon.

Citing the Daizenshuu is ineffective, because the Daizenshuu was made before GT.

He (Shin) also claims that the Broly scan literally saying it’s a whole new Broly matters not because it talks about old Broly, but that’s still not comparable. Again, the GT Dragon Book is pretty clear. I’d also be remiss to include the World Of Toriyama Timeline, as it literally has Super and GT co-existing as the same Timeline/History, which is not possible.

The only one that matters to truly “debunk” it is Chouzenshuu, which copy and pasted the Daizenshuu Timeline and added solely the events of Battle of Gods and GT, down to Cooler and Garlic Jr. Which doesn’t make functional sense, as BoG was made with the intent of continuing the “world of the manga,” by Toriyama’s own admission.

This is backed up by a Press Release, citing it is not a Spin-off, Side-Story, etc. and is apart of the official history.

This is especially relevant when you consider the Daizenshuu Timeline itself also makes no sense, since it canonizes Garlic Jr., Cooler, and the Beginning of Eradication of the Saiyans. All things that literally aren’t present in the actual Manga Canon and makes no sense to exist. As I noted before—Lots of contradictions with us to pick up the pieces—To try and make sense of the story.

Also, he operates under the assumption we haven’t altered the canon of Super to more closely align with what we believe—That given the multitude of flashbacks, footage reuse, and more, that Super stands as a continuation of the DBZ: Kai anime rather than the original Manga. This, again, points to a difference in thinking. We strongly believe that repeated cameos and references in this way makes a strong case (and has been accepted), he simply does not.

Moreover, even if I conceded this is all bumpkis, his ‘debunk’ did not cover how all the films connect to each other (as they themselves cite in their Pamphlets, Anime Film Comics, etc.), and thus would be indirectly canonized anyway. Hence why my Blog covered the topic from every angle. The films being connected to such a degree means one being canonized means all are canonized. The anime directly connects itself to all through Fusion Reborn. Film elements on their own repeatedly appear. Etc. Etc.

He goes on to say the Daizenshuu Timeline and appearance of solely Cooler means only Cooler, electing to ignore the actual information from the scan in question—The narrative intent by the creators of GT to have the films be apart of the history of Dragon Ball.

The false equivalence bit seems to be disingenuous to me. Series like DBH/DBXV, and more that fall into those continuities are known for using information from across multiple known to be separate series for their story, as their story exists as a melting pot of all Dragon Ball content. Whether that be the DBS Anime, the DBS Manga, the Z films, DBL, Dokkan, etc. Comparing that to things known to be connected (Z and GT) and the stories known to be connected to each (Garlic Jr., Cooler for Z, indirectly connecting the rest, WotD, FR for GT, indirectly connecting the rest) seems fallacious. Of course DBS Anime Goku can use DBS Manga Goku’s Hakai, there (in SDBH). Because their sense of canon is just “literally everything, regardless of the amount of sense it makes.”

That said, I agree with him in the end—We should not be having proxy battles, connecting to the owner of VSBW for that matter (bothering them with something beneath their purview), nor copy and pasting a person’s blog to post off-site (without crediting until he wanted a ‘debunk’ for himself to use because he was being argued against? To my confusion?) or what-have-you. Frankly, I don’t understand the purpose of doing so. Our Wikis work entirely differently, strive for different goals, and thus cannot be compared to or against each other.

What do you think of the argument of people arguing against Infinite sized universe for Toei, using the visual of the anime if Heaven being a Planet, or the Kaioshin realm being as big as a good part of the Universe, meaning finite sizes?

 

[RedReaper616]

What do you think of the argument of people arguing against Infinite sized universe for Toei,

I personally don’t think the Universe is infinite in Toei, but I’m in the minority.

using the visual of the anime if Heaven being a Planet,

I don’t think the fact it’s a planet defies it being universal in size, which is supported in the actual Anime when Videl gives the epitome of exposition in the scene that introduces the concept. Even it being a planet doesn’t stop it from being an infinite size planet. Just like how infinite size universes don’t stop being infinite when viewed as infinitesmal dots in a larger, higher dimensional space. (Not that such applies here). Infinity is an abstract concept that can’t truly be visualized in artistic form. Every page, every frame, every panel, has an end. Hence creative liberty/license for things like that.

or the Kaioshin realm being as big as a good part of the Universe, meaning finite sizes?

It being 1/10th of the Universe doesn’t really mean anything, even if it was really infinite. Fictional stories have been known to play with the concept of “bigger” and “lower” infinities all the time. Again, abstract concepts that can’t really be visualized.

Again, though, I disagree with the conclusion itself. I just don’t buy these points being enough to debunk it, because we already accept the conventions of fictional mediums/writers/artists/game engines/etc. in trying to achieve a “picture accurate” infinity.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

I personally don’t think the Universe is infinite in Toei, but I’m in the minority.

I don’t think the fact it’s a planet defies it being universal in size, which is supported in the actual Anime when Videl gives the epitome of exposition in the scene that introduces the concept. Even it being a planet doesn’t stop it from being an infinite size planet. Just like how infinite size universes don’t stop being infinite when viewed as infinitesmal dots in a larger, higher dimensional space. (Not that such applies here). Infinity is an abstract concept that can’t truly be visualized in artistic form. Every page, every frame, every panel, has an end. Hence creative liberty/license for things like that.

It being 1/10th of the Universe doesn’t really mean anything, even if it was really infinite. Fictional stories have been known to play with the concept of “bigger” and “lower” infinities all the time. Again, abstract concepts that can’t really be visualized.

Again, though, I disagree with the conclusion itself. I just don’t buy these points being enough to debunk it, because we already accept the conventions of fictional mediums/writers/artists/game engines/etc. in trying to achieve a “picture accurate” infinity.

Thanks a lot for the answer. I honestly agree with your point. I just asked you becouse I know someone from Discord (who is barely active in the wiki) who systematically complained about it's rating tho.
But yeah, visuals do not always represent the full extent of the stuff we see on screen. On Trinity Seven, a verse I follow, Universes are portrayed multiple times depicted as "Planets", heck you can even see continents on them. Yet that doesn't desqualify them from being Universes, nor being infinite.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer my question. Now I feel safer and more calm about this issue.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

To be canon or not to be that is the question.A Dragon ball Super revision

Well hello everyone I am back with another crt the objective of this crt would be to prove why DBZ Kai is canon to DBS anime First let me lay some base for the argument in Dragon ball Super we can see them using flash backs from the anime for some scenes in super 1)In Dragon ball super...

vsbattles.com

Thank you!

 

[BlackeJan]

I'm pretty sure he said he did? Or smth along the lines

I mean it was never said that he did but we can assume his body is used to the form now