Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

[Vizer04]

Correct! As he stated ("I went to the same timeline, but years earlier,"), as we see, (Cell goes to the past of a timeline that was altered by Trunks, which you have deemed a continuity error), and as shown, (in the Daizenshuu Timeline Diagram.) THAT is the events.

And Cell knows how time travel works because...

 

[RedReaper616]

Destiny doesn't exist in the Dragon Ball universe, thibgs aren't predestined to happen. That's the reason Bulma wrote HOPE!! on the time machine, because the events that led to their dystopian world weren't set in stone.

Not Destiny as an abstract concept that decides reality, like in JoJo, but destiny as in "the natural consequence of traveling to the exact same timeline the other guy did but sliiiightly earlier."

ALSO, the events were set in stone. Hence why the solution was returning home with an answer and saving another timeline from their fate, not Back to the Futuring reality. EDIT: They could not change their past. It's like...a major theme of the Saga. The Hope was in having a solution to take control of their Future.

 

[RedReaper616]

And Cell knows how time travel works because...

Cell has a brain given to him by a supercomputer and decades of work, one, two, the moment in the anime is clearly exposition dialogue you're to take seriously (which was then canonized as the series of events through the Daizenshuu Timeline Breakdown for the manga as well), and THREE, his understanding of time travel is irrelevant. He only needs to know how to utilize the machine, and the machine itself tells you your destination and you can alter it as needed. The destination, per his words, was pre-programmed to the same timeline Trunks went to previously, meaning he has to put no work in. Then he merely pressed a button to make him appear slightly earlier in that same timeline, so his words are valid, because there's nothing to assume--The work was done by Trunks and Bulma, who DO understand Time Travel. I also notice you refuse to actually challenge the Daizenshuu, which directly supports me and contradicts your interpretation, and actually explaining how Cell exists in the way he described and is stated by the Daizenshuu without just saying continuity error.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Destiny doesn't exist in the Dragon Ball universe, things aren't predestined to happen. That's the reason Bulma wrote HOPE!! on the time machine, because the events that led to their dystopian world weren't set in stone.

Cell went back in time before future events occurred one of those events was Trunks arriving, what your saying is like saying trunks couldn't possibly have warned the cast about the androids

 

[Vizer04]

Cell has a brain given to him by a supercomputer and decades of work

Then why was he surprised to see Trunks there? If he's so smart as you say, he should've figured that out.

also notice you refuse to actually challenge the Daizenshuu, which directly supports me and contradicts your interpretation, and actually explaining how Cell exists in the way he described and is stated by the Daizenshuu without just saying continuity error.

The Daizenshuu also says that the Cell Games happened in the Unseen Timeline so i'm not sure how accurate that information is.

I'm sure your interpretation of time travel is incorrect even by Super's logic but i don't want to wrap my head around the mechanics presented there, i'd like to preserve my sanity...

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

RedReaper616 it seems to make sense about Beerus creating a timeline with just his intervention.

 

[Vizer04]

They could not change their past. It's like...a major theme of the Saga. The Hope was in having a solution to take control of their Future.

"The future has not been written. There is no fate but what we make for ourselves"​

That's a quote from Terminator, which the Android Arc took a lot of inspiration from.

 

[Vizer04]

Cell went back in time before future events occurred one of those events was Trunks arriving, what your saying is like saying trunks couldn't possibly have warned the cast about the androids

EXACTLY! He shouldn't have been able to do that, so your interpretation of what happened couldn't be accurate.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

EXACTLY! He shouldn't have been able to do that, so your interpretation of what happened couldn't be accurate.

Why not? There is absolutely no reason persent in universe for that, all the guides imply each timeline has a history before the point that separated them, why is it illogical for cell to have gone to the timeline trunks arrived in a few years before trunks had arrived?

 

[Vizer04]

Why not? There is absolutely no reason persent in universe for that, all the guides imply each timeline has a history before the point that separated them

Can i see the sources please?

why is it illogical for cell to have gone to the timeline trunks arrived in a few years before trunks had arrived?

Because he would be changing history, which creates timelines.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Because he would be changing history, which creates timelines.

Both super and xenoverse say otherwise. Cell simply didn't do enough to cause a change until after trunks arrived. At that point he was in the new timeline trunks made from arriving. Idk why you can't get this through your thick skull honestly after this I'm done you can just be horrible wrong all you want

 

[RedReaper616]

The Daizenshuu also says that the Cell Games happened in the Unseen Timeline so i'm not sure how accurate that information is.

I mean, as I said before, any given Cell went back to the exact same timeline their Trunks came from. That would also be the Unseen Timeline. So it would make sense that in this timeline, since Cell travels to wherever Trunks went, so he also appears in that Unseen Timeline.

I'm sure your interpretation of time travel is incorrect even by Super's logic but i don't want to wrap my head around the mechanics presented there, i'd like to preserve my sanity...

Incorrect by Super's Logic, despite the fact I directly quoted how it works. And regardless it doesn't matter, because we see in Z additional Branches are not created for every trip. Cell is able to travel to earlier in the Timeline Trunks went to. We see it, he says it, and its stated verbatim in the Daizenshuu. Your only real response has been incredulity and semantics, none of which actually makes the information presented invalid.

 

[Vizer04]

Both super and xenoverse say otherwise. Cell simply didn't do enough to cause a change until after trunks arrived. At that point he was in the new timeline trunks made from arriving.

Where has been stated that you have to make a "significant change" in order to create a new timeline? That's only been implied because of the whole 'Beerus killing Zamasu' thing which had a lot of other factors involved like Black having a Time Ring for protection and Hakai having weird time-related attributes.

Idk why you can't get this through your thick skull honestly after this I'm done you can just be horrible wrong all you want

I admit i've been condescending during this discussion. I apologize for that, it's actually really fun to discuss with people as interested in this stuff as i am.

 

[RedReaper616]

That's a quote from Terminator, which the Android Arc took a lot of inspiration from.

...
Have you
SEEN Terminator?

The premise of the film is unchanging Time Loop, caused by Skynet sending the Terminator into the past to kill Sarah Connor (before her Son is born), with Kyle Reese following him and fathering John Connor with her, the messiah of the Destroyed Future, only made possible because Sarah Connor taught him what he needed to know due to information she got from the future from KYLE REESE. (Who, again, ONLY APPEARED due to John Connor existing.) As in, their PAST IS UNCHANGING. Only their FUTURE can be altered by putting your own fate in your own hands. Which, wouldn't you know it, your quote references. The FUTURE is what you decide, but the PAST is not malleable.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Is it me? or apprently since namek saga it was verbatim stated that Frieza was already universal?. King kai said Frieza's very power could destroy the universe, aswell as the narrator already said Namek Frieza's power was Uni aswell (Frieza in second form) imao....

Why Canon Z had to be so fodder

 

[RedReaper616]

Is it me? or apprently since namek saga it was verbatim stated that Frieza was already universal?. King kai said Frieza's very power could destroy the universe, aswell as the narrator already said Namek Frieza's power was Uni aswell (Frieza in second form) imao....

Why Canon Z had to be so fodder

That was likely intended to be over time. Also, yeah, the Anime makes the Manga vastly more powerful and varied ability wise compared to the Manga. I wouldn't consider them "fodder," though. Just scaled differently.

 

[Vizer04]

Why Canon Z had to be so fodder

Star level is fodder?

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Star level is fodder?

Everything is fodder to someone

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

That was likely intended to be over time. Also, yeah, the Anime makes the Manga vastly more powerful and varied ability wise compared to the Manga. I wouldn't consider them "fodder," though. Just scaled differently.

due to Toei's universe being infinite we can scale it high. However, even if it wasn't infinite, this feat would put Namek Frieza at Multi-solar system level, Galatic even imao

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Star level is fodder?

I meant it when compared with Toei. Toei certainly always like to wank the chars up to heavens lol, they do the same with DBS anime, while manga is relatively weaker in terms of feats

 

[RedReaper616]

No, the unaltered past before a branching point is the same for all timelines. The Saiyan Invasion happened in all four timelines, Frieza and his father came for revenge in all four timelines, etc.

I'm referring to this, his. When Cell went back in time, he went to the past of a Timeline that was already branched by Trunks. Explicitly. Because...

Because they went to the same Timeline. Again, Cell merely appeared earlier in the exact same Timeline Trunks did, as stated himself. He merely went earlier within it, as I have pointed out from his own words, the evidence from the anime and manga's diagrams, and the fact your logic could not apply, since he would not be able to live/travel to a timeline altered by Trunks killing Frieza and Cold since the original Future is that of Goku doing so, meaning he chose a Timeline Trunks already traveled to. Whilst yes this may create plotholes and may not make sense, this is precisely as the events occurred.

If you were right, Cell could not have experienced Trunks branching the Timeline, because that moment only exists due to Trunks' original trip. As, again, by your logic they create new timelines per trip and thus they could not travel to the same Timeline as they very clearly and explicitly did.

 

[Vizer04]

I'm referring to this, his. When Cell went back in time, he went to the past of a Timeline that was already branched by Trunks. Explicitly.

You run into a problem, Cell can only create new timelines copypasting the Original Timeline like this:

The unaltered past of all timelines is exactly the same, up until a branching point. You need to prove that timelines have their own pasts prior to a branching point:

 

[RedReaper616]

You run into a problem, Cell can only create new timelines copypasting the Original Timeline like this:

The unaltered past of all timelines is exactly the same, up until a branching point. You need to prove that timelines have their own pasts prior to a branching point:

Dude. He literally went into the past of a Timeline that was branched. That is the point. He went into the past of the Timeline Trunks gutted Frieza in, which cannot be possible if you are correct. And, again, the Daizenshuu proves this. Once more, I am telling you, your issues are of incredulity with the facts of the series, and you aren't providing any actual tangible evidence to support your point. Again, your explanation must operate around the facts, not ignore the facts due to any issues or contradictions they may create. (Something I've had to unfortunately deal with thanks to Hit's Time Skip and the litany of contradictions/nonsense created due to what makes sense not being true because no one decided to actually keep up with how they were writing his ability in the Anime.)

 

[Vizer04]

He went into the past of the Timeline Trunks gutted Frieza

But is there proof of this?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I meant it when compared with Toei. Toei certainly always like to wank the chars up to heavens lol, they do the same with DBS anime, while manga is relatively weaker in terms of feats

I love Infinite Zamasu

 

[Vizer04]

I love Infinite Zamasu

The manga or anime one?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

The manga or anime one?

There is no Infinite Zamasu for the manga, lol

 

[Vizer04]

There is no Infinite Zamasu for the manga, lol

 

[Huesito88]

There is no Infinite Zamasu for the manga, lol

Sorry to tell you Ruffy, but Zamasu only literally loves himself

 

[RedReaper616]

But is there proof of this?

Yes. We see it. ON SCREEN. Trunks goes to the past. He kills Frieza, leaves, come back and gets Android Blueprints, leaves again, and then when he prepares to come back to celebrate gets killed by Cell. Cell says, and we see, and it is stated, that he went to THE EXACT SAME TIMELINE, JUST EARLIER. He then awaits four years. In that time, Trunks appears, kills Frieza, and leaves. As in, Cell returned to an earlier point in history to the timeline Trunks caused to Branch. It is a very intuitive and very clear series of events. There's no confusion. This is just exactly as it transpired. As I described it. Any deviation from this is speculation.

 

[Vizer04]

Sorry to tell you Ruffy, but Zamasu only literally loves himself

Hardly tho

 

[Darkmon_cns]

But is there proof of this?

Let's see the guides say so and he's there in the show soooooo.....

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Let's see the guides say so and he's there in the show soooooo.....

Why so much fuss about the timelines? Lol

 

[Vizer04]

Let's see the guides say so and he's there in the show soooooo.....

He can be in the Main Timeline just like he does in the show. My theory already has Cell be in the Main Timeline, becoming perfect and it requires less mental gymnastics like "significant changes" and "Trunks being magically duplicated somehow"

4th Timeline (Main One): This is where Trunks² went in his trip to the past. Cell¹ was already buried underground in the 3rd Timeline (the one where this timeline branches off) so he was duplicated the moment Trunks² arrived here, creating Cell⁴. Piccolo wasn't killed in this timeline so he would fuse with Kami to become stronger. This new "Kamiccolo" would be a major obstacle for Cell⁴, who would resort to absorb humans in Gingertown to become stronger than him. Krillin would kill Cell⁵, who was incubating in Gero's lab. Cell⁴ would absorb A17 and A18, becoming perfect. Gohan would kill Cell⁴ and Trunks² would return to his time with knowledge of Cell.

 

[Vizer04]

Why so much fuss about the timelines? Lol

Not really fuss, i just tried to give another explanation than the commonly accepted one and we had some disagreements.

 

[RedReaper616]

He can be in the Main Timeline just like he does in the show. My theory already has Cell be in the Main Timeline, becoming perfect and it requires less mental gymnastics like "significant changes"

This is Super. This is not mental gymnastics. This is exactly as it is framed in Super.

and Trunks being magically duplicated somehow.

Your solution is Trunks magically duplicating Cell and ignoring what actually happens. Hence the point of this whole discussion. Because your initial premise of this 4 Timeline Breakdown is "minimizing plot holes and paradoxes." And you're doing this...by creating additional plot holes and ignoring the actual events as they transpired. Hence why I pointed out a given explanation has to work around the facts, since your explanation ignores them.

 

[Vizer04]

This is Super. This is not mental gymnastics. This is exactly as it is framed in Super.

That was merely implied, with a lot of external factors no less.

Your solution is Trunks magically duplicating Cell and ignoring what actually happens.

Huh? Cell being duplicated doesn't come out of nowhere, he was already buried underground previous to the point Trunks choose to travel to, so he was duplicated. On the other hand, it makes no sense for Cell to create a new timeline and THEN a random Trunks appears out of nowhere with no context.

And you're doing this...by creating additional plot holes and ignoring the actual events as they transpired.

To be fair we don't know a whole lot of what transpired in the other timelines. Much of that is left to interpretation.

 

[RedReaper616]

That was merely implied, with a lot of external factors no less.

Super Anime Diagram.
Super Manga Diagram.
Jaco's Comment in the Manga.
Whis' testimony in the Anime AND Manga.
It's not "merely" implied. It's given a LOT of coverage.

Huh? Cell being duplicated doesn't come out of nowhere, he was already buried underground previous to the point Trunks choose to travel to, so he was duplicated. On the other hand, it makes no sense for Cell to create a new timeline and THEN a random Trunks appears out of nowhere with no context.

Except, again, your idea is that Cell duplicates the Timeline. Meaning Trunks would not travel to a pre-existing Timeline, he would travel to his own unique Timeline he creates when he branches it. Because Cell only exists in a Timeline he would branch, and Trunks would only exist in a Timeline he would branch. They can only co-exist if they're both jumping to the same Timeline, which you are starkly against. Because if you WEREN'T, you WOULDN'T HAVE AN ISSUE with Cell traveling to a timeline TRUNKS Branched.

To be fair we don't know a whole lot of what transpired in the other timelines. Much of that is left to interpretation.

But we do know what happened with the characters that we see and have explained to us directly. Which is what I'm citing, specifically. Character dialogue, the guide, the events that transpire on page/screen, etc. Again, a lot of your argument comes down to "But that just doesn't make sense," even as I reference direct evidence, like the various Diagrams.

 

[Vizer04]

Super Anime Diagram.
Super Manga Diagram.
Jaco's Comment in the Manga.
Whis' testimony in the Anime AND Manga.
It's not "merely" implied. It's given a LOT of coverage.

Fair enough.

They can only co-exist if they're both jumping to the same Timeline, which you are starkly against.

Why is that the only possible option. What are the odds of a completely different Trunks jumping to the exact same timeline as Cell? Surely they have to be infinitesimal... actually, they would be 0% because if Trunks is truly a copy of OG Trunks as you say then he would've set the coordinates for the Unseen Timeline, just like OG Trunks did.

 

[Vizer04]

Whis explains a similar concept when he's under the impression that Time Travel works on BTTF rules. "Step on the wrong bug you end a planet." In this case, you can travel back in time and not cause issue unless you step on that bug.

The point of that analogy is that no significant change has to be made in order to create a new timeline. Merely "stepping on the wrong bug" can cause changes in history thanks to the butterfly effect.

Someone coming from the future into the past would create absolutely massive changes in history, even if they came, did nothing and left. New atoms are added in the universe by their mere presence which wasn't supposed to happen. Like it or not, that is going to create butterfly effect down the line. It might take years to become something significant, but it will happen eventually. Look up the infinite monkey theorem.