Vizer04
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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100
- Thread starter Warren_Valion
- Start date
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When Cell travels, he goes to the same altered Timeline that Trunks created. Meaning no new branching path was created for the Third Timeline, and instead it would be a branch off the already branched out timeline. (Though given this is never indicated, this is mere speculation, and it's more likely none was created, given the amount of Time Rings signified in Super.)
Unsure. Cell goes to the same Timeline Trunks came from (he says it was pre-programmed to do so for him, all he had to do was alter the year) so if anything the Unseen Timeline is where Cell went to, which would then be our Timeline. Of course, there IS an Unseen Timeline, because that's where Trunks went to get the means to kill the Androids', but it likely exists nebulously branched, because as far as we know they traveled to the same timeline due to the Time Machine's programming. Essentially, a mini-plot hole.
This is incorrect. Any Cell seen or described originates from the same Timeline a given Trunks is from, waking up after Trunks' victory. This specific fact is why when Trunks returns to his original Timeline, Cell is there to be killed by Trunks, as you yourself have noted. However, Cell notes within the story he went back in the first place because the Androids were killed. This means that what happened is Trunks ganked the 'Droids, prepared to return home, and got ambushed by Cell (Which you have listed as Timeline 1). This then allowed him to travel to the Timeline Trunks had previously locked onto, where Trunks found out. When he returned home, he ganked that same Cell (earlier in his own personal Timeline). Also, History of Trunks is merely the prequel to our Trunks appearing in the main story, so it moves continously from HoT to Main Canon events, meaning it cannot be separated in this way.
This is correct. Once Trunks went into the past, Cell was already there due to going to a time period earlier within that same Branch. Yes, there are two Trunks, because the initial one we see dies due to Cell, and the events play out as we see on screen. The only confusion would be how they both return to the exact same timeline and create the Unseen Timeline.
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I confidently believe cell traveling back in time created 2 alternative timeline a future and present and that he didn't just die to the androids (I doubt cell wouldn't consume enough humans to fight them anyway, he Handel's piccolo well enough and escapes when he wasn't done gathering energy, he'd be even stronger against the androids)
Vizer04
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Nope, Trunks traveled to Age 764 while Cell went to Age 763. Because Cell went to a point before the original branching point, he created another timeline different from the one Trunks created.
How's that? At the beginning of Super there's 5 Time Rings, the 4 i explained plus the timeline created by a 12th Universe civilization.
I only named it that way to help differenciate the timelines. Things are already confusing as it is so i thought it was easier to understand that way.
Vizer04
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I see you subscribe to this popular theory:
The problem with that theory is that it doesn't explain how Trunks and Cell ended up in the same timeline. On his first trip, Trunks set the coordinates to the Unseen Timeline so he should have gone there instead of the Main Timeline, but that's not what happened, is it.
The future is devastated and there's not enough humans for him to absorb. Also, he was being humilliated in his fight with Piccolo, that's the reason he used a Solar Flare to escape.
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Yes, however--We know that if you do not make changes, the Timeline does not alter. This is specifically noted within Dragon Ball Super. When Beerus goes and kills Zamasu, it's noted the act of killing Zamasu is what altered Time, not the mere act of traveling. When Cell appeared in our Timeline, he hid underground and did not change anything. Thus, no Branch. Furthermore, whilst yes, Cell did go earlier in Time than Trunks, he still specifies that the Timeline lock was on the one Trunks went to, just earlier within it. Hence why Cell appears in a Timeline Trunks himself appeared in the first place and not a new shiny duplicate Timeline where Trunks doesn't appear at all.
There's 1, the Unseen Timeline, then assuming Cell creates Timeline 3, which in itself duplicates the Trunks that goes to the Unseen Timeline (as he returns to earlier in that timeline's history and co-exists with him before he returns to the future to get killed). This puts us not at 3 Timelines, but 4 already, Then you add on more from other events, and it expands out further, branching out and duplicating continously because each Timeline MUST intersect with another that allows their events to flow as each branches. There's an entire video on this that shows if you take this logic and apply it accurately, there'd be about 30 Timelines. But there's only 5. Meaning despite what logic may dictate, there's a given amount you can do before you Branch a Timeline. Which makes sense, considering what Whis says (he can't rewind too much or he "skews" the temporal axis, ala a new Timeline, and Beerus having to kill Zamasu to create a new Timeline instead of Trunks simply existing causing one).
Fair.
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This doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Beerus only went and killed Zamasu because of an act of time travel, hence the act of travelling through time does alter time.
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No, Whis is pretty explicit. The Timeline only formed because Beerus killed Zamasu. Not before when Trunks initially arrived and explained everything. And if he had not, none would generate. Meaning Trunks traveling in itself does not cause Branches. The act of Time Travel does alter time, but specifically when alterations of signifcant degree occur that skew the Timeline. Whis explains a similar concept when he's under the impression that Time Travel works on BTTF rules. "Step on the wrong bug you end a planet." In this case, you can travel back in time and not cause issue unless you step on that bug.
If I was to try and give an analogy, it's the difference between me dropping a ball at 25 feet, versus me dropping it at 50 feet, versus me actually throwing the ball and at an angle, hitting a person. In the first two examples, my natural action is technically the same even though the specifics are different. My time travel in this case did not cause a split in time. Gravity pulls the ball down all the same. However, me throwing it, hitting someone, and causing further ripple effects would.
It's not an automatic mechanism, but a mechanism that occurs when you specifically act on time in significant ways that differ than the original course.
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Cell is up and active less then a day after the androids appear. He would have plenty of time to gather humans to absorb before the population is ravaged.
You only have to assume the distinct timelines still exists before the point of separation which frankly works better with how there talked about in show. For example you could independently travel to age 300 in each timeline and each of the events could in theory be altered with a timering user separately.
Vizer04
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Cell already made a change in history by simply being there hiding underground, which didn't happen in the Original Timeline nor the Unseen Timeline. Having to make "a significant change" as Super suggests sounds like a really arbitrary rule (
No, the unaltered past before a branching point is the same for all timelines. The Saiyan Invasion happened in all four timelines, Frieza and his father came for revenge in all four timelines, etc.
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EDIT: This is simply ignoring the canon rules. Which is fine, I'm just pointing out by definition this is wrong because of Super.
Yes, but when Trunks arrives he changes events. Originally, Cell and Trunks come from a Timeline where GOKU killed Frieza. Cell arrived in the past of the Timeline where TRUNKS DID. As in, he arrived to the exact same timeline, as he said he did, but earlier within it.
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This is still a rule you are activly ignoring.
This is an assumption being applied to the narrative that is never made inside it. They are referred to as separate timelines, the assumption that they don't have indepent historyies is unsupported
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What is the original reason for why Beerus kills Zamasu in one timeline and doesn't kill Zamasu in the original timeline?
It's because in the original timeline Future Trunks hadn't travelled back to them, to warn them of Goku Black.
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Dosen't beerus doing it not.make a new timeline anyway sense black says he was protected by the timering and not like, time travel physics?
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That doesn't change the fundamental point. Yes, Beerus went there because Trunks went back in Time. But it is specifically noted the Timeline was created by Beerus' kill, not the actual act of Time Travel. Meaning, if Trunks went to the past, told Beerus, and Beerus did nothing, NO TIMELINE would generate. Meaning it is not a mechanism BUILT INTO TIME that AUTOMATICALLY OCCURS via the MERE ACT OF TRAVELING IN TIME, but instead a natural consequence of Time Travel by making significant alterations to the timeline AFTER THE ACT. "By changing the past," as specifically stated in the manga, and noted by Whis in both continuities. AGAIN, meaning if you go back in Time and DON'T change the past, NOTHING will branch.
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Actually, in the Anime the Branch is created specifically because of the Time Ring. He would've ended Black and Time would've altered BTTF style, but the Time Ring makes you Acausal.
In the Manga, the Time Ring does not have this feature, seemingly, so Beerus just creates a New Timeline like normal because the Gods were wrong on how Time Travel works compared to the Anime. I'm going to have to alter the manga pages accordingly, (because I was notified of this by someone else), but I've been so busy I've been running behind on my projects for the Wiki.
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I get where you're coming from, but even if this is what is happening it still wouldn't make sense. Saying that "no new timeline would generate because nothing is different" is just wrong because there is a difference which is that Beerus' knowledge is different. It wouldn't impact Zamasu's fate as he'd still go on to do his plan of stealing Goku's body, but the timeline would be different than it was before. It fundamentally has to be different, because something is not the same.
The only way logically a new timeline shouldn't be generated is if it was a stable timeloop where Beerus always knew that the information that Trunks told him and just never intervened.
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Which is true, but this is explicitly what is stated within the series. A timeline would not have been created had Beerus not intervened, despite his knowledge and actions changing unrelated to Zamasu's fate. This is just how it was stated to work within the confines of the series (as of Dragon Ball Super).
EDIT: Also, it does work even without the Timeloop were you to assume there's an unknown amount you can change events, without branching, as that IS what is implied by this.
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It's very similar to how xenoverse Handel's timetravel, the time patroler being there dosen't make a new timeline as long as things stick close enough to how there ment too
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Correct! Which, y'know, makes sense because DBO, XV, and SDBH are all made with Toriyama Lore for the "Future of Dragon Ball." (Even though this retroactively began to make less sense when they said that it's ALSO because the Time Machine had a flaw that generated Timelines that Trunks corrected to make it stop doing that. But y'know I don't expect it to make tangible sense after running for so long with various moving parts and rules that only matter so long as Rule of Cool supports it.)
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It's not cool for Goku to have Immeasurable Speed?
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The other trunks is from another future timeline that was created at the same time as the persent timeline.
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The Daizenshuu and Super also supports this. In former's History/Timeline Guide, it is explicitly noted/shown they are going to and from the same Histories/Timelines at different points, without creating additional branches. Again in Super's Anime, and again in the Super Manga. You can simply travel between already branched Timelines at earlier or later without creating extra Branches (for some reason). It also explicitly shows the new branch only occurring at the Beerus Hakai moment, further proving Trunks' travel in time did not cause the Branch. It was Beerus' attack on Zamasu.
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He didn't.
Cell killed Trunks, went to the past, and waited three years. Then he woke up when Trunks was already there, as the Egg was fresh and barely hatched. The time frame he picked was specifically because that was the time he needed to develop, specifically.
Vizer04
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It's was actually four years he waited as a larva though, look it up. He arrived a year before Trunks, plus the three years of waiting for the Androids, that makes four years.
You still haven't answered my question, how did another Trunks appeared in the timeline Cell went to?
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Then he waited four years to develop. Regardless, he picked his time period for developmental purposes, not to specifically meet someone he already killed.
Because they went to the same Timeline. Again, Cell merely appeared earlier in the exact same Timeline Trunks did, as stated himself. He merely went earlier within it, as I have pointed out from his own words, the evidence from the anime and manga's diagrams, and the fact your logic could not apply, since he would not be able to live/travel to a timeline altered by Trunks killing Frieza and Cold since the original Future is that of Goku doing so, meaning he chose a Timeline Trunks already traveled to. Whilst yes this may create plotholes and may not make sense, this is precisely as the events occurred.
Vizer04
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Ok? That wasn't the point of my question though. Obviously he wasn't expecting Trunks to be there:
Which would create another timeline as i've explained countless of times already...
That's just a continuity error.
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Which is wrong, as I've demonstrated with Cell's testimony, the Diagram for both Super Continuities, and the Z-Time Travel Diagram in the Daizenshuu. This is simply incorrect. Sorry.
Or, just maybe, he just...Did what he CLAIMED he did, and what the guides say, and what we visibly see happen, and the error is in fact the belief it would create extra branches to begin with? I feel like one conclusion requires less mental gymnastics, here.
Vizer04
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That timeline must be a perfect copy of the original one until Trunks comes back, at which point it diverges, right? Then how did that Trunks go to the Main Timeline if OG Trunks set the coordinates for the Unseen Timeline? If he set the coordinates for the Main Timeline then he stops being a perfect copy of OG Trunks and we are back to the same question... Where did this Trunks come from?
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The same place Future Trunks went at the end of his Saga in Super, where a completely perfect copy of Future Trunks' magically timeline exists somehow, where he did all of the correct things in the Cell Saga like our Trunks did, and where there should be an extra 4 timelines existing due to this bare minimum, despite only 5 existing specifcally: plot convenience land.
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Sorry but that's not the whole lore. We are looking at the franchise as a whole not piggen holeing the discussion for arbitrary reasons.
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I mean, I'm pointing out how attempting to reconcile that Trunks' origin is a task and a half because Toriyama simply didn't think of it. This Trunks must come from an additional Timeline, but all evidence points opposite. Similarly, there should be extra Timelines so the "ending" Future Trunks has in Super makes sense, but there is only 5. Despite what makes sense, it is incorrect. Furthermore, I literally mainly utilized Z for my rebuttals, after my initial pointing out of the Rules within Super, only bringing it up again for the Diagrams (as supplementary, which was not necessary as even the Z-Timeline breakdown Diagram still supports my point), and this last time where I point out how it just fundamentally is an answer I do not have for you due to the rules we've seen and repeatedly had established within the Cell Saga contradict the explanation you are attempting to give. You must reconcile these undeniable facts to have the answer you desire, not cling to what is definitively incorrect and try to warp the story around that.
Vizer04
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The lore made sense for two decades until Super came in and ruined everything. Now the mechanics of time travel are an absolute clusterfuck.
Vizer04
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So, Cell went to a past where a version of Trunks was... predestined to appear years later?
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Super makes fine sense. It's just xenoverse logic with timerings not making new timelines idk what's so hard about that.
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Ya not that hard to grasp
Edit: he went to the past of the prior timeline his trunks made, Trunks appearing was already going to happen on it
Vizer04
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Destiny doesn't exist in the Dragon Ball universe, things aren't predestined to happen. That's the reason Bulma wrote HOPE!! on the time machine, because the events that led to their dystopian world weren't set in stone.
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Correct! As he stated ("I went to the same timeline, but years earlier,"), as we see, (Cell goes to the past of a timeline that was altered by Trunks, which you have deemed a continuity error), and as shown, (in the Daizenshuu Timeline Diagram.) THAT is the events.
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