All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

[RedReaper616]

It's was actually four years he waited as a larva though, look it up. He arrived a year before Trunks, plus the three years of waiting for the Androids, that makes four years.

Then he waited four years to develop. Regardless, he picked his time period for developmental purposes, not to specifically meet someone he already killed.

You still haven't answered my question, how did another Trunks appeared in the timeline Cell went to?

Because they went to the same Timeline. Again, Cell merely appeared earlier in the exact same Timeline Trunks did, as stated himself. He merely went earlier within it, as I have pointed out from his own words, the evidence from the anime and manga's diagrams, and the fact your logic could not apply, since he would not be able to live/travel to a timeline altered by Trunks killing Frieza and Cold since the original Future is that of Goku doing so, meaning he chose a Timeline Trunks already traveled to. Whilst yes this may create plotholes and may not make sense, this is precisely as the events occurred.

 

[Vizer04]

Then he waited four years to develop. Regardless, he picked his time period for developmental purposes, not to specifically meet someone he already killed.

Ok? That wasn't the point of my question though. Obviously he wasn't expecting Trunks to be there:

Because they went to the same Timeline. Again, Cell merely appeared earlier in the Timeline Trunks did, as stated himself. He merely went earlier within it

Which would create another timeline as i've explained countless of times already...

he would not be able to live in a future altered by Trunks killing Frieza and Cold since the original Future is that of Goku doing so

That's just a continuity error.

 

[RedReaper616]

Which would create another timeline as i've explained countless of times already...

Which is wrong, as I've demonstrated with Cell's testimony, the Diagram for both Super Continuities, and the Z-Time Travel Diagram in the Daizenshuu. This is simply incorrect. Sorry.

That's just a continuity error.

Or, just maybe, he just...Did what he CLAIMED he did, and what the guides say, and what we visibly see happen, and the error is in fact the belief it would create extra branches to begin with? I feel like one conclusion requires less mental gymnastics, here.

 

[Vizer04]

The other trunks is from another future timeline that was created at the same time as the persent timeline.

That timeline must be a perfect copy of the original one until Trunks comes back, at which point it diverges, right? Then how did that Trunks go to the Main Timeline if OG Trunks set the coordinates for the Unseen Timeline? If he set the coordinates for the Main Timeline then he stops being a perfect copy of OG Trunks and we are back to the same question... Where did this Trunks come from?

 

[RedReaper616]

That timeline must be a perfect copy of the original one until Trunks comes back, at which point it diverges, right? Then how did that Trunks go to the Main Timeline if OG Trunks set the coordinates for the Unseen Timeline? If he set the coordinates for the Main Timeline then he stops being a perfect copy of OG Trunks and... we are back to the same question. Where did this Trunks come from?

The same place Future Trunks went at the end of his Saga in Super, where a completely perfect copy of Future Trunks' magically timeline exists somehow, where he did all of the correct things in the Cell Saga like our Trunks did, and where there should be an extra 4 timelines existing due to this bare minimum, despite only 5 existing specifcally: plot convenience land.

 

[Vizer04]

Please stop bringing Super and the games into the conversation, i intended the discussion to be merely about the Z timelines.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Please stop bringing Super and the games into the conversation, i intended the discussion to be merely about the Z timelines.

Sorry but that's not the whole lore. We are looking at the franchise as a whole not piggen holeing the discussion for arbitrary reasons.

 

[RedReaper616]

I mean, I'm pointing out how attempting to reconcile that Trunks' origin is a task and a half because Toriyama simply didn't think of it. This Trunks must come from an additional Timeline, but all evidence points opposite. Similarly, there should be extra Timelines so the "ending" Future Trunks has in Super makes sense, but there is only 5. Despite what makes sense, it is incorrect. Furthermore, I literally mainly utilized Z for my rebuttals, after my initial pointing out of the Rules within Super, only bringing it up again for the Diagrams (as supplementary, which was not necessary as even the Z-Timeline breakdown Diagram still supports my point), and this last time where I point out how it just fundamentally is an answer I do not have for you due to the rules we've seen and repeatedly had established within the Cell Saga contradict the explanation you are attempting to give. You must reconcile these undeniable facts to have the answer you desire, not cling to what is definitively incorrect and try to warp the story around that.

 

[Vizer04]

Sorry but that's not the whole lore. We are looking at the franchise as a whole not piggen holeing the discussion for arbitrary reasons.

The lore made sense for two decades until Super came in and ruined everything. Now the mechanics of time travel are an absolute clusterfuck.

 

[Vizer04]

The same place Future Trunks went at the end of his Saga in Super, where a completely perfect copy of Future Trunks' magically timeline exists somehow, where he did all of the correct things in the Cell Saga like our Trunks did, and where there should be an extra 4 timelines existing due to this bare minimum, despite only 5 existing specifcally: plot convenience land.

So, Cell went to a past where a version of Trunks was... predestined to appear years later?

 

[Darkmon_cns]

The lore made sense for two decades until Super came in and ruined everything. Now the mechanics of time travel are an absolute clusterfuck.

Super makes fine sense. It's just xenoverse logic with timerings not making new timelines idk what's so hard about that.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

So, Cell went to a past where a version of Trunks was... predestined to appear years later?

Ya not that hard to grasp

Edit: he went to the past of the prior timeline his trunks made, Trunks appearing was already going to happen on it

 

[Vizer04]

Ya not that hard to grasp

Destiny doesn't exist in the Dragon Ball universe, things aren't predestined to happen. That's the reason Bulma wrote HOPE!! on the time machine, because the events that led to their dystopian world weren't set in stone.

 

[RedReaper616]

So, Cell went to a past where a version of Trunks was... predestined to appear years later?

Correct! As he stated ("I went to the same timeline, but years earlier,"), as we see, (Cell goes to the past of a timeline that was altered by Trunks, which you have deemed a continuity error), and as shown, (in the Daizenshuu Timeline Diagram.) THAT is the events.

 

[Vizer04]

Correct! As he stated ("I went to the same timeline, but years earlier,"), as we see, (Cell goes to the past of a timeline that was altered by Trunks, which you have deemed a continuity error), and as shown, (in the Daizenshuu Timeline Diagram.) THAT is the events.

And Cell knows how time travel works because...

 

[RedReaper616]

Destiny doesn't exist in the Dragon Ball universe, thibgs aren't predestined to happen. That's the reason Bulma wrote HOPE!! on the time machine, because the events that led to their dystopian world weren't set in stone.

Not Destiny as an abstract concept that decides reality, like in JoJo, but destiny as in "the natural consequence of traveling to the exact same timeline the other guy did but sliiiightly earlier."

ALSO, the events were set in stone. Hence why the solution was returning home with an answer and saving another timeline from their fate, not Back to the Futuring reality. EDIT: They could not change their past. It's like...a major theme of the Saga. The Hope was in having a solution to take control of their Future.

 

[RedReaper616]

And Cell knows how time travel works because...

Cell has a brain given to him by a supercomputer and decades of work, one, two, the moment in the anime is clearly exposition dialogue you're to take seriously (which was then canonized as the series of events through the Daizenshuu Timeline Breakdown for the manga as well), and THREE, his understanding of time travel is irrelevant. He only needs to know how to utilize the machine, and the machine itself tells you your destination and you can alter it as needed. The destination, per his words, was pre-programmed to the same timeline Trunks went to previously, meaning he has to put no work in. Then he merely pressed a button to make him appear slightly earlier in that same timeline, so his words are valid, because there's nothing to assume--The work was done by Trunks and Bulma, who DO understand Time Travel. I also notice you refuse to actually challenge the Daizenshuu, which directly supports me and contradicts your interpretation, and actually explaining how Cell exists in the way he described and is stated by the Daizenshuu without just saying continuity error.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Destiny doesn't exist in the Dragon Ball universe, things aren't predestined to happen. That's the reason Bulma wrote HOPE!! on the time machine, because the events that led to their dystopian world weren't set in stone.

Cell went back in time before future events occurred one of those events was Trunks arriving, what your saying is like saying trunks couldn't possibly have warned the cast about the androids

 

[Vizer04]

Cell has a brain given to him by a supercomputer and decades of work

Then why was he surprised to see Trunks there? If he's so smart as you say, he should've figured that out.

also notice you refuse to actually challenge the Daizenshuu, which directly supports me and contradicts your interpretation, and actually explaining how Cell exists in the way he described and is stated by the Daizenshuu without just saying continuity error.

The Daizenshuu also says that the Cell Games happened in the Unseen Timeline so i'm not sure how accurate that information is.

I'm sure your interpretation of time travel is incorrect even by Super's logic but i don't want to wrap my head around the mechanics presented there, i'd like to preserve my sanity...

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

RedReaper616 it seems to make sense about Beerus creating a timeline with just his intervention.

 

[Vizer04]

They could not change their past. It's like...a major theme of the Saga. The Hope was in having a solution to take control of their Future.

"The future has not been written. There is no fate but what we make for ourselves"​

That's a quote from Terminator, which the Android Arc took a lot of inspiration from.

 

[Vizer04]

Cell went back in time before future events occurred one of those events was Trunks arriving, what your saying is like saying trunks couldn't possibly have warned the cast about the androids

EXACTLY! He shouldn't have been able to do that, so your interpretation of what happened couldn't be accurate.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

EXACTLY! He shouldn't have been able to do that, so your interpretation of what happened couldn't be accurate.

Why not? There is absolutely no reason persent in universe for that, all the guides imply each timeline has a history before the point that separated them, why is it illogical for cell to have gone to the timeline trunks arrived in a few years before trunks had arrived?

 

[Vizer04]

Why not? There is absolutely no reason persent in universe for that, all the guides imply each timeline has a history before the point that separated them

Can i see the sources please?

why is it illogical for cell to have gone to the timeline trunks arrived in a few years before trunks had arrived?

Because he would be changing history, which creates timelines.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Because he would be changing history, which creates timelines.

Both super and xenoverse say otherwise. Cell simply didn't do enough to cause a change until after trunks arrived. At that point he was in the new timeline trunks made from arriving. Idk why you can't get this through your thick skull honestly after this I'm done you can just be horrible wrong all you want

 

[RedReaper616]

The Daizenshuu also says that the Cell Games happened in the Unseen Timeline so i'm not sure how accurate that information is.

I mean, as I said before, any given Cell went back to the exact same timeline their Trunks came from. That would also be the Unseen Timeline. So it would make sense that in this timeline, since Cell travels to wherever Trunks went, so he also appears in that Unseen Timeline.

I'm sure your interpretation of time travel is incorrect even by Super's logic but i don't want to wrap my head around the mechanics presented there, i'd like to preserve my sanity...

Incorrect by Super's Logic, despite the fact I directly quoted how it works. And regardless it doesn't matter, because we see in Z additional Branches are not created for every trip. Cell is able to travel to earlier in the Timeline Trunks went to. We see it, he says it, and its stated verbatim in the Daizenshuu. Your only real response has been incredulity and semantics, none of which actually makes the information presented invalid.

 

[Vizer04]

Both super and xenoverse say otherwise. Cell simply didn't do enough to cause a change until after trunks arrived. At that point he was in the new timeline trunks made from arriving.

Where has been stated that you have to make a "significant change" in order to create a new timeline? That's only been implied because of the whole 'Beerus killing Zamasu' thing which had a lot of other factors involved like Black having a Time Ring for protection and Hakai having weird time-related attributes.

Idk why you can't get this through your thick skull honestly after this I'm done you can just be horrible wrong all you want

I admit i've been condescending during this discussion. I apologize for that, it's actually really fun to discuss with people as interested in this stuff as i am.

 

[RedReaper616]

That's a quote from Terminator, which the Android Arc took a lot of inspiration from.

...
Have you
SEEN Terminator?

The premise of the film is unchanging Time Loop, caused by Skynet sending the Terminator into the past to kill Sarah Connor (before her Son is born), with Kyle Reese following him and fathering John Connor with her, the messiah of the Destroyed Future, only made possible because Sarah Connor taught him what he needed to know due to information she got from the future from KYLE REESE. (Who, again, ONLY APPEARED due to John Connor existing.) As in, their PAST IS UNCHANGING. Only their FUTURE can be altered by putting your own fate in your own hands. Which, wouldn't you know it, your quote references. The FUTURE is what you decide, but the PAST is not malleable.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Is it me? or apprently since namek saga it was verbatim stated that Frieza was already universal?. King kai said Frieza's very power could destroy the universe, aswell as the narrator already said Namek Frieza's power was Uni aswell (Frieza in second form) imao....

Why Canon Z had to be so fodder

 

[RedReaper616]

Is it me? or apprently since namek saga it was verbatim stated that Frieza was already universal?. King kai said Frieza's very power could destroy the universe, aswell as the narrator already said Namek Frieza's power was Uni aswell (Frieza in second form) imao....

Why Canon Z had to be so fodder

That was likely intended to be over time. Also, yeah, the Anime makes the Manga vastly more powerful and varied ability wise compared to the Manga. I wouldn't consider them "fodder," though. Just scaled differently.

 

[Vizer04]

Why Canon Z had to be so fodder

Star level is fodder?

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Star level is fodder?

Everything is fodder to someone

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

That was likely intended to be over time. Also, yeah, the Anime makes the Manga vastly more powerful and varied ability wise compared to the Manga. I wouldn't consider them "fodder," though. Just scaled differently.

due to Toei's universe being infinite we can scale it high. However, even if it wasn't infinite, this feat would put Namek Frieza at Multi-solar system level, Galatic even imao

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Star level is fodder?

I meant it when compared with Toei. Toei certainly always like to wank the chars up to heavens lol, they do the same with DBS anime, while manga is relatively weaker in terms of feats

 

[RedReaper616]

No, the unaltered past before a branching point is the same for all timelines. The Saiyan Invasion happened in all four timelines, Frieza and his father came for revenge in all four timelines, etc.

I'm referring to this, his. When Cell went back in time, he went to the past of a Timeline that was already branched by Trunks. Explicitly. Because...

Because they went to the same Timeline. Again, Cell merely appeared earlier in the exact same Timeline Trunks did, as stated himself. He merely went earlier within it, as I have pointed out from his own words, the evidence from the anime and manga's diagrams, and the fact your logic could not apply, since he would not be able to live/travel to a timeline altered by Trunks killing Frieza and Cold since the original Future is that of Goku doing so, meaning he chose a Timeline Trunks already traveled to. Whilst yes this may create plotholes and may not make sense, this is precisely as the events occurred.

If you were right, Cell could not have experienced Trunks branching the Timeline, because that moment only exists due to Trunks' original trip. As, again, by your logic they create new timelines per trip and thus they could not travel to the same Timeline as they very clearly and explicitly did.

 

[Vizer04]

I'm referring to this, his. When Cell went back in time, he went to the past of a Timeline that was already branched by Trunks. Explicitly.

You run into a problem, Cell can only create new timelines copypasting the Original Timeline like this:

The unaltered past of all timelines is exactly the same, up until a branching point. You need to prove that timelines have their own pasts prior to a branching point:

 

[RedReaper616]

You run into a problem, Cell can only create new timelines copypasting the Original Timeline like this:

The unaltered past of all timelines is exactly the same, up until a branching point. You need to prove that timelines have their own pasts prior to a branching point:

Dude. He literally went into the past of a Timeline that was branched. That is the point. He went into the past of the Timeline Trunks gutted Frieza in, which cannot be possible if you are correct. And, again, the Daizenshuu proves this. Once more, I am telling you, your issues are of incredulity with the facts of the series, and you aren't providing any actual tangible evidence to support your point. Again, your explanation must operate around the facts, not ignore the facts due to any issues or contradictions they may create. (Something I've had to unfortunately deal with thanks to Hit's Time Skip and the litany of contradictions/nonsense created due to what makes sense not being true because no one decided to actually keep up with how they were writing his ability in the Anime.)

 

[Vizer04]

He went into the past of the Timeline Trunks gutted Frieza

But is there proof of this?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I meant it when compared with Toei. Toei certainly always like to wank the chars up to heavens lol, they do the same with DBS anime, while manga is relatively weaker in terms of feats

I love Infinite Zamasu

 

[Vizer04]

I love Infinite Zamasu

The manga or anime one?