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Dragon Ball Super - Broly and Gogeta Justification Proposal Remade

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Firestorm808

Firestorm808

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The purpose of this thread is to determine if the statements from the Broly Movie Novel provided below can be used as supporting evidence for their current Low 2-C ratings. Once that is determined we will try to condense these statements into a proper format for the profiles.

Do not attempt to make AP upgrades with this thread. That is not relevant to this discussion, and will be considered derailing.

Source - Full movie light novel: https://www.narutoforums.org/threads/dragon-ball-super-broly-novel-translations.1158464/

Evidence from previous thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-super-broly-and-gogeta-justification-addition.141602/

In one part of the Broly novel, it is said that the energy of Super Saiyan Broly and Super Saiyan Gogeta was so intense that the universe couldn't take it. This ended up causing them to be teleported to these dimensions.

"A small capsule carrying Kakarotto traveled a long distance and was about to reach Earth. After that, there were many encounters, farewells and battles - it took a long time for Kakarot, who was called Goku on Earth, Vegeta and Frieza to meet. And 40 and one year after it all started, one day after the "Tournament of Powers", which involved the twelve universes, this story began on an isolated island at the southern end of the western capital"

​


“He describes the energy of Super Saiyan Gogeta and Super Saiyan Broly as being so powerful that it seems... it has surpassed or breached the limits of the universe that transported them to this other dimension. When Broly hits Gogeta and we see more reality shattering, he describes it as something like Broly crushing Gogeta against the walls of space. When they leave the dimension, it is described as them 'disintegrating' the dimension. "

​


"Excerpt from Broly's Movie Novel"

When Broly lands a hit, Gogeta is lost. But, using this to his advantage, the gogeta who had just gained distance clasps his hands at hip height to prepare himself for the ki burst stance. In response to this, Broly does the same."

Haaa!! Gaaaaa!!

Energy containing power from a different dimension collides between the two. A flash of light appears as a silent explosion expanded. In the next instant, Gogeta and Broly found themselves in a dimension of strange whirling lights. The dimension boundary could not resist the Energy released by them and was torn apart.

​


As Broly dodges the attack, he makes his way towards Gogeta. After leaving the opposing shockwave, Gogeta rushes towards Broly as well. The instant their punches collided, a chance is once again triggered within the dimension. As the dimension's light fades, the setting of the original world returns. Broly and Gogeta fall to the ground, keeping their distance from each other. Unable to fully withstand the thrust of the landing, Broly slides across the floor until he finally stops. Although he had assumed a certain posture, he was breathing heavily.

​


Gogeta fires a Kamehameha, and Broly matches his attack; suddenly the fabric of reality cracks and shatters like glass or ice. They fight in an odd landscape of colors. Broly transforms once again into his Full Power form, and Gogeta goes straight to SSB, never giving Broly a chance to adapt. They collide in various dimensions, eventually colliding, they are unlikely to return to the real world. Broly is furious, but Gogeta just laughs smugly. This is his fight. On Frieza's ship, Cheelye and Lemo can see how this will end. They know Broly, he doesn't want to be like that; his father forged this battle monster out of a pure and kind Saiyan, and they have to end it or Broly will die. They desperately run through the ship with Lemo carrying all seven Dragon Balls.

​


Piccolo looks at the Lights. The two lights that dare to accompany the books and intertwine so as not to fill each other up. But it has changed. I can feel myself shaking again. Getting over that, he laughed at Piccolo. The naughty magazine was a starting point. I haven't let go of it, but the power within him is far, far from being defeated by Broly who looks like he's even bigger. "Ok, go fast! Um…" With that said, Piccolo went. "What should I call?" "When it's potara, it's Vegito... So, uh...

https://imgur.com/a/MGvKcmV

Gogeta and Broly destroyed dimensions: https://imgur.com/a/V4l23wi

Confirmation: https://imgur.com/a/OWp5pPy
 
We could also note that in the novel Golden Frieza actually occasionally forced Broly to dodge his attacks (tho he still lost of course), which IMO is much better Low 2-C justification for him than Vegeta simply saying he "may" be a threat.
Click to expand...
Translation of Broly vs Frieza fight from novel:

"Golden Frieza's punches were able to dull Broly's movements a bit if landed properly, and if he were to throw blows with all of his might, Broly would go for avoiding them. However, that was all he could do.

”Gyaaaaaaaa!"

Frieza continued being a sandbag. However, being able to take Broly's attacks over and over again for over 30 minutes is nothing short of amazing. As expected, he's not called the Emperor of the universe for nothing."

For comparison, a double sucker punch from both SSJB Goku and Vegeta combined to the back of SSJ Broly's head didn't even make him budge.

So yeah I'd say Broly saga Golden Frieza > SSJB Goku/Vegeta going by this.

Not an upgrade, but an addition to Golden Frieza's Low 2-C justification for the Broly Saga.
 

"Low 2-C Universe level+​

Characters who are capable of significantly affecting, creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums (the entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) of a universal scale. However, it can be more generally fulfilled by any 4-dimensional space that is either:

A) Equivalent to a large extra dimensional space. That is, a higher-dimensional "bulk" space which embeds lower-dimensional ones (Such as our universe) as subsets of itself, whose dimensions are not microscopic / compactified.

B) Portrayed as completely transcending lower-dimensional objects and spaces in the setting of a given work of fiction."

I don't think it meets the standard. There's no proof that the other dimension is of universal in scale or that it has its own space-time continuum(Past, Present, and Future). And even if it did have a space-time continuum the size of a universe Gogeta and Broly have no proof of affecting the past, present, and future of the other dimensions space-time continuum to be a low 2-C feat.
 
That is a good point, and I think that destroying a universal space-time continuum is sufficient to qualify, without explicitly showing that the past is affected.
 
Nullflowerblush said:




The novel refers to their effect on reality as spatial and makes reference to "the boundaries between dimensions"/"dimensional boundary", which hearkens back to Super Buu ripping a hole in space to escape the Room of Spirit and Time, meaning this could hardly be considered supporting evidence.
Click to expand...

Doesn't that mean that space time was affected? No it does mean that because they need to affect space time to replicate that. The only issue is that if they're doing it on a universal scale.
 
Since when was the Vice Shout a spatiotemporal feat? Piccolo destroyed the only spatial exit from the Room of Spirit and Time, and Buu created his own by ripping open space.
 
So what has been accepted in this thread so far, and what do we still need to discuss here?
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
Without confirmation that a structure of universal size was affected I think this can only be listed as Space-Time Manipulation
Click to expand...
Fact 1, it is said in the novel that the entire universe could not withstand such a large amount of energy as Brolly and Gogeta, they threw them in a dimension that could withstand their attacks (in fact this dimension must be larger than universal size to tank all of their attacks)

Fact 2, it is described that they destroyed this entire dimension and reality, it is impossible for a destruction of reality not to affect space-time


Fact 3, it is said that every movie is on a universal scale, so such a dimension is Universal or greater than that to support such a huge energy! Link to all the things I mentioned below


Ahead of the release of "Dragon Ball Super: SUPER HERO", the new movie in the "Dragon Ball" series, which is based on legendary manga artist Akira Toriyama's mega-hit manga series, on April 22 as a Golden Week of movie, we will explain some highlights of the movie here. The "Super" series is a manga anime series that began in 2015 and covers the 10-year gap between Majin Buu's defeat and the final chapter of the original story. The last film in the series, "Dragon Ball Super: Broly", released in 2018, was a huge success, grossing over a billion yen at the box office thanks to the incredible visuals of the battles between the Saiyans. As in the last film, also in "SUPER HERO", Akira Toriyama, the author of the original work, will be responsible for the script and character design. According to Akio lyoku, head of the Dragon Ball Room of Shueisha's Rights Division, the story outline for this film was completed during production of Broly. "As Akira Toriyama took on a new challenge with 'Broly, he was quite excited about the final product and said, 'Let's get to work on the next one! In 2013, he wrote the story and script for the first movie in 17 years, "Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods", and it seemed to me that his desire to move these characters to the next level was very high. But he didn't want to force it. 'Broly' was the story of a final battle, so he wanted to do something a little different. , and that's how this work began." (Mr. Tyoku)

The main points were "introduce characters from the past and return to the roots, the "Earth is in danger" stage, but as time went on, Goku and Vegeta grew stronger, and the scale of the battles increased, and the last movie took in the form of a Universal Scale Battle. "We wanted to write characters other than Goku and Vegeta. This time around, Gohan and Piccolo play a very active role, and as we think through the story, we feel it's important to consider what the fans want. Of course, Gohan and Piccolo are popular characters, so we wanted them to play an active role in the movie.

Battle of the Gods, Resurrection of Frieza and Dbs Broly are universal in scale.

Dbs Broly, dimensions are universal.





Just now this Interview with Iyoku, director of DBS: Super Hero, about the movie came out

Main points

01 - Gohan and Gamma 1's battle wasn't originally in the rain, but director Tetsuro Kodama thought the rain would be cool and Toriyama approved.

02 - Iyoku says that Toriyama started on the Super Hero script before the release of DBS: Broly. It's a change of pace from universal scale battles like the Broly movie and whatnot, with the story focusing on a threat to Earth and Gohan + Piccolo rather than Goku + Vegeta.

03 - The film also shows the “army” side of the RR, as it has been a while since the main enemy was a complete organization. They're a more comedic, scheming type of villain rather than someone you just beat up. Also, Toriyama had to design his new base and vehicles.

04 - In fact, Magenta and Carmine's villainous machinations will be key to the first half of the movie. As mere ordinary humans, Magenta and Hedo may not have fighting skills, but a lot of attention was paid to their speech style and gestures being adequate.

05 - While much of the film will be devoted to this "human drama", the CGI visuals will also be used for battle scenes that depict the inhuman speed and fighting style of Gamma 1 and 2, and the true strength of scholar Gohan. Director Kodama specializes in CG animation.



Herms translated:
 
This dimension has its own space-time, to tank attacks that not even the universe could handle, this dimension has to be superior to the universe.

The battleground mentioned above, which could only be done with CG, will be a highlight of the movie (they say). It's a kind of place that doesn't exist in reality, like an alternate dimension, and they created it with Unity software.



Source:



Dragon Ball official website mentioned about the superdimensional dimension

https://dragonball.news/news/dbmfl28.html

No mention of size needed, any thinking brain knows, it's like doing a 2+2=

This dimension has to be superior to the universe to tank such energy, they not only broke this dimension, but also reality, I don't see the feat not fitting with low 2-C
 
I read through all of Toby's replies, and here's my thoughts.

Saying the Super Hero movie brings things down from a Universal scale doesn't mean jack, since we already had this scale of fighting capabilities in DBS proper during the ToP, so using this specifically as evidence for Broly is bunk, despite the fact that it does technically apply here.

As said above, just because Goku and Broly create and subsequently destroy a dimension, it doesn't mean that there was a definitive size to the dimension, or that said dimension ran on the same space-time laws as their own. You can say, "Oh, they were gonna destroy the universe by battling, so they moved their fight to another universal space they created just so they could destroy that instead." But that doesn't make a lot of sense if you think about it, since we can't be sure if that universe was, in fact, universe sized and not a fluctuating pocket of space. Furthermore, the dimension was created by accident due to their conflicting blasts shattering the boundary of space and time, which again does not say how big the space they were fighting in was. Which is further enforced by the fact that none of the scans ever say they destroyed a universe, they simply shattered the dimension they were fighting in.

Honestly, I agree with the judgement of Maverick and DDM. Without something definitively saying it was another universe, all I can reward it is a Space-Time Manipulation feat.
 
Therefir said:
That this feat cannot be used for ratings, since we don't know the size of those dimensions, and it could only be classified as Space-Time Manipulation.
Click to expand...
Starter_Pack said:
I read through all of Toby's replies, and here's my thoughts.

Saying the Super Hero movie brings things down from a Universal scale doesn't mean jack, since we already had this scale of fighting capabilities in DBS proper during the ToP, so using this specifically as evidence for Broly is bunk, despite the fact that it does technically apply here.

As said above, just because Goku and Broly create and subsequently destroy a dimension, it doesn't mean that there was a definitive size to the dimension, or that said dimension ran on the same space-time laws as their own. You can say, "Oh, they were gonna destroy the universe by battling, so they moved their fight to another universal space they created just so they could destroy that instead." But that doesn't make a lot of sense if you think about it, since we can't be sure if that universe was, in fact, universe sized and not a fluctuating pocket of space. Furthermore, the dimension was created by accident due to their conflicting blasts shattering the boundary of space and time, which again does not say how big the space they were fighting in was. Which is further enforced by the fact that none of the scans ever say they destroyed a universe, they simply shattered the dimension they were fighting in.

Honestly, I agree with the judgement of Maverick and DDM. Without something definitively saying it was another universe, all I can reward it is a Space-Time Manipulation feat.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the evaluations.

I think that you make sense above. We should probably apply your suggested solution then.
 
Starter_Pack said:
As said above, just because Goku and Broly create and subsequently destroy a dimension, it doesn't mean that there was a definitive size to the dimension, or that said dimension ran on the same space-time laws as their own. You can say, "Oh, they were gonna destroy the universe by battling, so they moved their fight to another universal space they created just so they could destroy that instead." But that doesn't make a lot of sense if you think about it, since we can't be sure if that universe was, in fact, universe sized and not a fluctuating pocket of space. Furthermore, the dimension was created by accident due to their conflicting blasts shattering the boundary of space and time, which again does not say how big the space they were fighting in was. Which is further enforced by the fact that none of the scans ever say they destroyed a universe, they simply shattered the dimension they were fighting in.

Honestly, I agree with the judgement of Maverick and DDM. Without something definitively saying it was another universe, all I can reward it is a Space-Time Manipulation feat.
Click to expand...
Bro, they didn't create the dimension. The universe couldn't handle their power, they broke the barriers of reality and ended up in another dimension. If you really got "they created the dimension" out of that, I don't know what to tell you. Because that just flat out isn't true.

Genuinely, why is this a debate? The universe couldn't handle their power, so they broke into an alternate dimension, they then broke several more dimensions, resulting in the reality collapsing. That's Low 2-C, that's it, end of story. You don't need explicit statements of size to know that destroying a dimension. That they were brought to Specifically because their actual universe couldn't contain their power. Then proceeding to Collapse the reality of that dimension, is anything less than Low 2-C. At this point, Y'all are just arguing semantics.
 
Z's_Universe said:
Bro, they didn't create the dimension. The universe couldn't handle their power, they broke the barriers of reality and ended up in another dimension. If you really got "they created the dimension" out of that, I don't know what to tell you. Because that just flat out isn't true.

Genuinely, why is this a debate? The universe couldn't handle their power, so they broke into an alternate dimension, they then broke several more dimensions, resulting in the reality collapsing. That's Low 2-C, that's it, end of story. You don't need explicit statements of size to know that destroying a dimension. That they were brought to Specifically because their actual universe couldn't contain their power. Then proceeding to Collapse the reality of that dimension, is anything less than Low 2-C. At this point, Y'all are just arguing semantics.
Click to expand...
Funny tho Buuhan was doing the same thing. Breaking the barriers of reality and bringing other dimensions inside the universe on a universal scale.
 
Aachintya31 said:
Funny tho Buuhan was doing the same thing. Breaking the barriers of reality and bringing other dimensions inside the universe on a universal scale.
Click to expand...
Uhhh, that isn't at all the same thing. Buuhan was going to collapse the universe through alternate dimensions. Broly and Gogeta literally entered another dimension due to the universe being unable to handle their own power.
 
Why does knowing that the dimension they broke into could momentarily withstand their power more than the universe make this a quantifiable low 2-C feat? That fact doesn't entail the size of the dimension which is required to qualify for low 2-C.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Why does knowing that the dimension they broke into could momentarily withstand their power more than the universe make this a quantifiable low 2-C feat? That fact doesn't entail the size of the dimension which is required to qualify for low 2-C.
Click to expand...
I mean the dragonball website also states that it's a super dimension so there's also that (Obviously I'm not trying to say they're 1-A or anything, that's stupid). Clearly they designed it to be a massive extra-dimensional structure. I'm also struggling to grasp why there's so much emphasis on a specific size, it has its own space time, exists outside the regular universe. Space-time itself is literally infinite. Why so much emphasis on size on this wiki? Like, the literal concept of space-time is infinite. If it has it's own space-time, it's 4d, shattering it makes you Low 2-C.
 
Z's_Universe said:
I mean the dragonball website also states that it's a super dimension so there's also that (Obviously I'm not trying to say they're 1-A or anything, that's stupid). Clearly they designed it to be a massive extra-dimensional structure. I'm also struggling to grasp why there's so much emphasis on a specific size, it has its own space time, exists outside the regular universe. Space-time itself is literally infinite. Why so much emphasis on size on this wiki? Like, the literal concept of space-time is infinite. If it has it's own space-time, it's 4d, shattering it makes you Low 2-C.
Click to expand...
Super dimension is meaningless.
Low 2-C space time continuums are required to be at least universal in size for reasons that I still find quite arbitrary.
 
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