Dragon Ball Revisions that will make u cry

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think SomebodyData had some supports for 5-C Roshi a while back and he might come back. But I overall think I would lean towards being against it. Plus, we really don't need to go back to the 3-A debates ever again. Goku clearly scales to it, it's not only his SSG form that did the feat, but the same scene had Goku going back to his base form and still being just as strong. Then he went SSJ after that and only got even stronger and later returned to his SSG form stronger yet. Arguing against base forms being 3-A is the same thing as arguing that Base Goku will always be weaker than Frieza, SSJ1 weaker than Cell, and SSJ2 always weaker than Buu. When even his base form surpassed all of those even by the beginning of BoG saga.

 

[Migue79]

I agree with Moon level Roshi.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

There's also the fact that for one Goku's Kamehameha was stated in the Daizenshuu to be capable of shattering the moon (obviously meant to mirror the Roshi feat)

IIRC, Kepekley addressed that before already and said it wasn’t an entirely different feat but just falling back to Roshis feat, which would be calling back to what’s considered a an outlier.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

It’s not ridiculous to say the context is similar. Both are huge amps with feats much higher than the last. Plain and simple.

Yeah, sure, comparing amps that have nothing to do with each other and for one that we can guess actual numbers for is totally a similar context. It's not like Roshi's isn't a transformation, or the difference in power between his base and Max Power isn't as ridiculous as Base Goku and SSG, or like we hadn't seen it in action before pulling off a completely different feat, absurdly lower feat.

Again it’s not mind boggling. You’re over blowing it. Also the shockwaves were 3-B, matching Beerus isn’t a destructive feat it’s power scaling, and Goku’s only feat that was 3-A was punching out the dense energy ball that had enough power to wipe out the universe.

You are focusing on completely irrelevant things. The amount of context you blow over to call them "comparable" is ridiculous to say the least. And no, Goku has two feats, actually read AKM's blog. Contributing to the energy ball, and then overpowering Beerus' power null that could nullify the entirety of the energy ball. And I am not sure how having both a destructive feat and scaling to someone that contributed to that feat changes anything... rather, you are just cementing that Goku's reasoning is way better, so the situation is again comparable at only surface level.

I never said he was holding back at all. I said he destroyed it by accident. Also AOE, DB characters know how to attack objects and people without destroying the planet.

So he failed to not destroy the mountain and screwed that up but totally didn't fail in only destroying the mountain, what he didn't try to do. Makes total sense.

I have zero idea what Frieza, Cell or Buu have to do with this. You actually think King Piccolo would end up killing him self if he destroyed the planet with his own power? That’s some “core level Frieza” levels of illogical. King Piccolo can fly up and destroy the planet like every other DB character ever and I’m pretty sure Namekians can breathe in space. Again with Piccolo Jr, area of effect.

... Did you suddenly forget King Piccolo can't survive in space? Like Piccolo? Like Namekians? Unlike those 3 I mentioned? You are free to show me literally any indication that namekians can survive in space. The only one that seriously tried to blow up earth even if he wouldn't survive that is Vegeta, and he has a raging temper that was pushed to its limits at that moment. I see no temper on Piccolo.

So basically, people having smaller feats doesn't matter anymore because "AoE can be controlled and we should totally believe King Piccolo".

Moot. King Piccolo destroying earth is a supporting statement, not a crutch.

A supporting that has absolutely nothing backing it beyond saying "yeah Ki control totally patches any holes due to inconsistent feats."

This outlier ting just hinges on “muh one feat, muh inconsistent, muh anti feats”, etc. It’s super easy to say the moon bust is legit but the wiki has to use a bunch of twists and turns and mental gymnastics to say “nah B, outliner B.” Not only is this argument outdated (2014 for **** sake) but it’s stone walling and an Appeal to Association Fallacy.

This is the genuinely dumbest thing you have said by fair. So anti-feats and inconsistency aren't a thing anymore, and we can completely disregard them, even when they outnumber and are more consistent than the actual supposed feat.

**** it, I said what I had to say. If this is the kind of dumb logic we rely on, I am gonna need to start doing some CRTs, inconsistency and anti-feats are now worth shit.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I agree with 5-C Roshi. It's really as consistent as any Z or S scaling.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally think that 5-C early series Roshi would be far too inconsistent with all other portrayals, and most of the staff members here seem to agree with me, so it is not going to be accepted.

It is better if we focus on the other issues instead.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I think SomebodyData had some supports for 5-C Roshi a while back and he might come back. But I overall think I would lean towards being against it. Plus, we really don't need to go back to the 3-A debates ever again. Goku clearly scales to it, it's not only his SSG form that did the feat, but the same scene had Goku going back to his base form and still being just as strong. Then he went SSJ after that and only got even stronger and later returned to his SSG form stronger yet. Arguing against base forms being 3-A is the same thing as arguing that Base Goku will always be weaker than Frieza, SSJ1 weaker than Cell, and SSJ2 always weaker than Buu. When even his base form surpassed all of those even by the beginning of BoG saga.

SomebodyData had a pretty solid argument in favor of 5-C Roshi in an old thread.
To quote him:

Scaling DB based on KP's city bust feat:

• Considers Master Roshi's 5-C feat an outlier.
• Considers King Piccolo's own 6-B - High 6-A statement an outlier.
• Considers Kami's 5-C creation feat an outlier or unacceptable.
• Consider the Goku moon busting Kamehameha statement because while it literally calls it a moon busting attack its also a reference to Roshi's outlier.
• Considers Goku not getting much stronger (between EoDB and BoZ) a lie.
• Ignores Piccolo BoZ and Piccolo EoDB being placed near each other in power.'
• Kami somehow stole the dragon balls from Bulma's closet within the 3 year gap between KP and PJr. Sagas.
• Popo and Kami somehow can detect the dragon balls without the radar, despite the radar clearly being needed.
• Ignores that the Super Kamehameha in the Pjr. Saga is >>> Piccolo in the BoZ.

Scaling based on the significant amount of 5-C stuffs:

• Considers King Piccolo's 7-B feat an outlier

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

SomebodyData had a pretty solid argument in favor of 5-C Roshi in an old thread.
To quote him:

Scaling DB based on KP's city bust feat:

• Considers Master Roshi's 5-C feat an outlier.
• Considers King Piccolo's own 6-B - High 6-A statement an outlier.
• Considers Kami's 5-C creation feat an outlier or unacceptable.
• Consider the Goku moon busting Kamehameha statement because while it literally calls it a moon busting attack its also a reference to Roshi's outlier.
• Considers Goku not getting much stronger (between EoDB and BoZ) a lie.
• Ignores Piccolo BoZ and Piccolo EoDB being placed near each other in power.'
• Kami somehow stole the dragon balls from Bulma's closet within the 3 year gap between KP and PJr. Sagas.
• Popo and Kami somehow can detect the dragon balls without the radar, despite the radar clearly being needed.
• Ignores that the Super Kamehameha in the Pjr. Saga is >>> Piccolo in the BoZ.

Scaling based on the significant amount of 5-C stuffs:

• Considers King Piccolo's 7-B feat an outlier

RIGHT?! IT'S REALLY SIMPLE!

 

[DMUA]

Oh lord it seems I've been dragged into this

Consider the fact that, after several years of training, unleashing his absolute maximum power after charging for several minutes straight, Piccolo Jr, who's whole point is to be vastly stronger than King Piccolo and thereby Roshi

Only wipes out a fairly large island for Low 6-B results, and is left panting and obviously drained from the attack

And that the only time that anything near moon level happens is years and years later after yet more training when Piccolo manages to blow up the moon again

Roshi is like, as outlierish as it gets. Super's scaling and explainations for why people are suddenly 3-A is janky, so I can't really see the point of trying to use that to disprove the validity of Roshi's moonbust being heavily inconsistent with stuff for like, probably hundreds of chapters?

Even if it was done accidentally, Roshi busting Mount Frypan was still done with his max power. It's a far more consistent gauge to place him slightly above that as opposed to all the way to Moon level.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

I personally think that 5-C early series Roshi would be far too inconsistent with all other portrayals, and most of the staff members here seem to agree with me, so it is not going to be accepted.

It is better if we focus on the other issues instead.

You can't do that when you have staff agreeing and logical argumentation on both sides.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

People trying to pretend Outliers don't exist or alter the definition of outliers when Roshi's feat is literally the textbook example of something like that is quite funny.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Or maybe you know, we're arguing it isn't an outlier.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also Kami's "5-C creation" feat doesn't scale to anything. Have you seen how Kami and Popo restore Shenron? They make a Paper Machie doll and then use magic to bring it to life. It's not something that scales to their offensive power.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

So are you saying Kami is making a paper mache copy of the moon?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Also Kami's "5-C creation" feat doesn't scale to anything. Have you seen how Kami and Popo restore Shenron? They make a Paper Machie doll and then use magic to bring it to life. It's not something that scales to their offensive power.

Shenron can't perform anything above his Creator's Power, like when they asked if he could deal with the Saiyans.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

You can't do that when you have staff agreeing and logical argumentation on both sides.

I can at least agree with this.

Staff can be trusted but they aren't everything, so if other people wanna argue for the rating, they should be allowed to argue for it, no matter how much I disagree with it.

 

[Antvasima]

The staff consensus here is to reject the 5-C feat as an outlier. The rest of you will have to live with that, and stop wasting all of our time with this pointless argument, so we can focus on more productive arreas of discussion. My apologies.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm saying that Shenron's Creation Magic doesn't scale to AP. Dragon Ball is actually a very good example of a series where creation feats don't scale to punching. People with magic powers are almost always extremely physically weak or at least comparatively weak.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also people saying "But Ki Control" when that thing as a concept is barely in the actual series and only starts being brought up like, in the Cell Saga.

Early on in Dragon Ball we have several examples of characters unleashing their full power at the ground and it not causing widespread destruction simply because they're not meant to be that strong.

Also, we see how King Piccolo planned on "destroying the world". He was using a freaking Gacha Machine to pull up balls with the numbers of cities written in it, and then he'd destroy that very city randomly. And he'd keep doing that until everyone was wiped out. He's a ****** who wanted to wipe out humanity, he isn't Buu.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Ki Control was actually hinted in Teen Goku saga by Kami and Popo. But Dragon Ball saga is really bad at demonstrating it and it wasn't quite as universal until Frieza saga. Also, Shenron is stronger than Kami in terms of Reality Warping powers in what not. He uses reality warping to restore planets or the moon and not giving birth to planets.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Ki Control was actually hinted in Teen Goku saga by Kami and Popo. But Dragon Ball saga is really bad at demonstrating it and it wasn't quite as universal until Frieza saga. Also, Shenron is stronger than Kami in terms of Reality Warping powers in what not. He uses reality warping to restore planets or the moon and not giving birth to planets.

It doesn't change my argument. It doesn't scale to pew pew punch punch.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

The staff consensus here is to reject the 5-C feat as an outlier. The rest of you will have to live with that, and stop wasting all of our time with this pointless argument, so we can focus on more productive arreas of discussion. My apologies.

This debate has been going for about an hour and there's already a consensus to reject it and have it never brought up again? Iirc several members agree with it that haven't even had the chance to discuss here yet. Also the arguments of blue names cannot just be ignored because "We have colored names, kek".

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also as the person who helped actually write the current wiki definition for Outliers I actually regret doing it.

I purposefully worded it in a way that implied Outliers are rare and almost never happened because back then VBW was full of downplay and the main push was to avoid it. Nowadays it's actually the opposite.

Outliers are definitely more frequent than the page definition implies.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Matt, I wasn't arguing against you; quite the contrary. My point was the Reality warping thing was supposed to support your argument.

 

[Antvasima]

Also as the person who helped actually write the current wiki definition for Outliers I actually regret doing it.

I purposefully worded it in a way that implied Outliers are rare and almost never happened because back then VBW was full of downplay and the main push was to avoid it. Nowadays it's actually the opposite.

Outliers are definitely more frequent than the page definition implies.

You can ask DontTalkDT to collaborate with making the page stricter if you wish.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion. Alternately, a staff member can use the @Username notification system.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I disagree with the idea that outliers are prevalent. Imo, people claim outliers (I'm not exempt) because it disagrees with their worldview of that series. Inconsistencies are a different story altogether, and outliers do exist, but no, they are rare.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Also, please don't use that Ki control bullcrap...

Everyone was genuinely worried that Goku was gonna destroy the planet when aiming down at Cell, as in down at the planet. Vegeta, likewise, had to actually make his attack smaller, and still he carved off parts of an island and parted the sea when using Final Flash.

This is after Vegeta had already been shown using Ki Control, which I very much believe was proposed originally using the description for Big Bang attack as further proof of it, yet Trunks and Krillin are still worried about it hitting the surface and even Vegeta reduced the size at the last second because he knew what was gonna happen if he didn't. Ki Control isn't gonna do shit if an attack hits the actual Earth and it isn't contained like Big Bang Attack.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I disagree with the idea that outliers are prevalent. Imo, people claim outliers (I'm not exempt) because it disagrees with their worldview of that series. Inconsistencies are a different story altogether, and outliers do exist, but no, they are rare.

I disagree with the idea that outliers aren't prevalent. Imo, people claim that outliers don't exist because it disagrees with their worldview of that series. Inconsistencies are a similar story,, and outliers do exist, and they aren't rare.

You made no argument whatsoever here, just an umbrella statement that I can easily reverse.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You see the difference between your statement and mine is that...

The feats still exist for mine

No matter what argument people make, Roshi did destroy the moon, and nothing you say will change that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Everyone was genuinely worried that Goku was gonna destroy the planet when aiming down at Cell, as in down at the planet. Vegeta, likewise, had to actually make his attack smaller, and still he carved off parts of an island and parted the sea.

Forget Vegeta doing this.

Tienshinhan in the 23rd Budokai (Or was it 22nd?) used all of his Ki in his ultimate move, firing it straight at the ground, and it only pulverized a giant hole in the arena, and everyone was absolutely terrified of the attack, Goku said that he would have died if it hit him, and it drained Tien of all his Ki. Nowhere in the fight was the area of effect brought up as being reduced, that was clearly meant to be the full extent of Tien's power.

Likewise in the following tournament arc, Piccolo's full power Ki Blasts only destroyed islands and everyone talked about it killing Goku and everyone else if it hit then, when Piccolo was aiming it at the ground later in their fight.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You see the difference between your statement and mine is that...

The feats still exist for mine

You do realize this argument can be used in reverse. SPECIALLY for series that you like, right?

The thing which you call 'Low-ends'. Low-Ends and Outliers both exist and they're equally arbitrary.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

SomebodyData had a pretty solid argument in favor of 5-C Roshi in an old thread.
To quote him:

Scaling DB based on KP's city bust feat:

• Considers Master Roshi's 5-C feat an outlier.
• Considers King Piccolo's own 6-B - High 6-A statement an outlier.
• Considers Kami's 5-C creation feat an outlier or unacceptable.
• Consider the Goku moon busting Kamehameha statement because while it literally calls it a moon busting attack its also a reference to Roshi's outlier.
• Considers Goku not getting much stronger (between EoDB and BoZ) a lie.
• Ignores Piccolo BoZ and Piccolo EoDB being placed near each other in power.'
• Kami somehow stole the dragon balls from Bulma's closet within the 3 year gap between KP and PJr. Sagas.
• Popo and Kami somehow can detect the dragon balls without the radar, despite the radar clearly being needed.
• Ignores that the Super Kamehameha in the Pjr. Saga is >>> Piccolo in the BoZ.

Scaling based on the significant amount of 5-C stuffs:

• Considers King Piccolo's 7-B feat an outlier

Reached agreement... Pffff. Bullcrap. Nobody bothered to debunk this.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

What Da_Lunge_Fish said. No one tried debunking those.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Reached agreement... Pffff. Bullcrap. Nobody bothered to debunk this.

Okay.

• Roshi's Moon level feat is absolutely an outlier. We are shown Roshi's full power in an earlier arc and it's only mountain level. Later on in every arc up until the Saiyan Saga we see the full power of stronger characters and it is always billions of times weaker than moon level.
• King Piccolo's "High 6-A statement" is pure bullshit, it doesn't exist. Piccolo was talking about "Destroying the world" by blowing up cities and wiping out humanity, this is clear if you show the full scene where Piccolo takes over the world and declares himself king. You are just taking a statement out of context to wank.
• Kami's creation feat has been addressed in this thread, it does not scale to physical power. It is meaningless overall.
• Is the Moon busting statement in the manga? No? Then it's meaningless, Daizenshuu is always secondary and Goku being 'moon-busting' in the classic manga without ever demonstrating such a feat is unproven, and also an outlier since the only moon level feat in classic is contradicted by every other feat.
• Goku trained for 5 years. Power levels increases in Dragon Ball are utterly arbitrary, they do not follow linear logical progression. If Goku does not depict much better feats after years of training, then his tier will not increase. If he demonstrates astronomically better feats are a few weeks of training, then his tier will increase. "Close in power" is meaningless.
• Power levels are meaningless. We do not care how close the official numbers are against each other, they are mostly provided by secondary sources and not the actual manga, and the increase is utterly arbitrary. What matters are the feats, not arbitrary power levels.
• The stuff about the dragon balls is utterly irrelevant and gish-gallop fallacy. It's just trying to make your argument larger than it actually is.

I "debunked it". There. Pretty weak arguments overall if you ask me.

Now you can stop pretending people are refusing to address your "flawless arguments" just because you put a bunch of them next to each other. Most of the stuff in that post was addressed constantly, only separately in individual posts. You were just being dishonest.

 

[LordTracer]

they do not follow linear logical progression

Question, if this is the case, then why does the Kaioken both multiply AP and power levels by the same amount?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Question, if this is the case, then why does the Kaioken both multiply AP and power levels by the same amount?

This is literally the only time in the entire series.

If you truly believe this is the case for everything than Farmer With a Shotgun is Continent level.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

Does Dragon Ball ever state that Kami used the dragon balls to remake the moon either time it had to be remade?

People keep mentioning that Shenron did it, but I do not remember that ever being mentioned in the series, and Kami wanting to remake the moon was the explanation given as to why he cut off Goku's tail.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

>SPECIALLY for series that you like, right?

Man, you’re aware of who you’re talking to, right? With this being Dragon Ball? You’ve been around long enough to know that I ain’t a DB supporter by a long shot.

 

[Theglassman12]

I’m neutral for the upgrades here, but I wanna make one clarification. Goku did technically get a power boost between the end of DB and the beginning of Z. He was critically wounded and ate a senzu bean at the end of his fight with piccolo, meaning he did get a Zenkai boost from it, which makes sense on how Goku was somehow able to keep up with a Piccolo who trained for a few years to get his revenge.