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Dragon Ball Revisions that will make u cry

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Theglassman12 said:
I’m neutral for the upgrades here, but I wanna make one clarification. Goku did technically get a power boost between the end of DB and the beginning of Z. He was critically wounded and ate a senzu bean at the end of his fight with piccolo, meaning he did get a Zenkai boost from it, which makes sense on how Goku was somehow able to keep up with a Piccolo who trained for a few years to get his revenge.
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Even if he didn't train as much as Piccolo, Goku's only past-time for those 5 years was training still, pretty much.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
Shenron can't perform anything above his Creator's Power, like when they asked if he could deal with the Saiyans.
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Just going to point out that this is irrelevant here. We literally had a huge discussion about this before in the last thread involving 5-C Roshi and Kami, with AKM and Kepeklely (one of them) giving points on why the "cant go beyond the users" power thing for Shenron is inconsistent. Things like tier 5 Dende would be a thing going off this logic.

Speaking of which, someone should probably ask Kepekely to come back to this again.
 
Also yeah.

Dende is an excellent point. The dude can get killed by regular weapons and has no offensive capabilities.

On a broader scale, the Kaios and Kaioshins are supposed to have created all the planets and stars in the universe but offensively they are very weak compared to the destructive gods.
 
Consider the fact that, after several years of training, unleashing his absolute maximum power after charging for several minutes straight, Piccolo Jr, who's whole point is to be vastly stronger than King Piccolo and thereby Roshi

Only wipes out a fairly large island for Low 6-B results, and is left panting and obviously drained from the attack

Stronger characters have done less damage by doing the same thing, so what’s your point?
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
Stronger characters have done less damage by doing the same thing, so what’s your point?
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The sheer number of examples of this being done over and over again indicates that the original higher feat was an outlier.

We do this for One Punch Man for a 7-B /7-A feat Genos done. Genos even in the beginning of the series is like 8-A / 7-C and we considered a slightly higher feat an outlier.

Why shouldn't we consider Roshi's feat which is literally trillions of times higher than all feats in the series until Saiyan Saga Piccolo an outlier as well? Your favoritism for Dragon Ball?
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
The sheer number of examples of this being done over and over again indicates that the original higher feat was an outlier.

We do this for One Punch Man for a 7-B /7-A feat Genos done. Genos even in the beginning of the series is like 8-A / 7-C and we considered a slightly higher feat an outlier.

Why shouldn't we consider Roshi's feat which is literally trillions of times higher than all feats in the series until Saiyan Saga Piccolo an outlier as well? Your favoritism for Dragon Ball?
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You should be the last person to bring up bias Matt. The difference between Genos and Roshi is that Roshi performed a higher feat in a transformed state no one scales to until the later end of dragon ball. Genos has no transformations and fodder characters scale above him. Might as well call 7-B an outlier because it’s far above 9-B or high 8-C.
 
The_real_cal_howard said:
Then they just upscale like we do for every series. Imo if you have a feat there better be a darn good reason why you don’t scale to it.
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Because Genos' stronger forms can't replicate feats even close to it at full power.

Like, if you think this isn't reason for an outlier just go ahead and say you don't believe the concept of outliers even exist. At which point you shouldn't be discussing this to begin with.
 
Pretty sure Genos just recently performed a feat well above that, but that’s besides the point.

I won’t because I said that they’re overblown. For example, Pikachu creating a lightning bolt that’s longer than the planet (even though that’s a feat from an opening and therefore non canon) would be an outlier. And even if I did think outliers didn't exist, I still would have every right to comment and discuss these matters.
 
Featless Dragons like Bakuzan upscale from Hundred Eyes Octopus who performed a low 7-B feat as a demon and yet its not considered an outlier for HEO?
Edit:Whoops Bakuzan scales to Choze my bad.
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
Stronger characters have done less damage by doing the same thing, so what’s your point?
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No, they haven't

Usually when they make a big attack it doesn't leave them panting and obviously exhausted, and even if it does look like it took plenty of energy, it's at the very least got ki control to back it up

The Super Explosive Wave Piccolo Jr did is like, the antithesis to the concept of Ki Control. His objective was to straight up wipe everything on that Island off the map including but not limited to Goku.
 
DMUA said:
No, they haven't

Usually when they make a big attack it doesn't leave them panting and obviously exhausted, and even if it does look like it took plenty of energy, it's at the very least got ki control to back it up

The Super Explosive Wave Piccolo Jr did is like, the antithesis to the concept of Ki Control. His objective was to straight up wipe everything on that Island off the map including but not limited to Goku.
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His goal was to wipe out the island and Kill Goku. Not destroy the planet. And Vegeta died when using the final explosion against Majin Buu. Just because a character wipes out a certain range doesn’t mean their AP is limited to that range. This is literally 5-A Golden Frieza again.
 
Wasn't that also after an intense fight with Goku? Why wouldn't he be tired as hell after using his best move at that point in time after a long ass fight?
 
The_real_cal_howard said:
I won’t because I said that they’re overblown. For example, Pikachu creating a lightning bolt that’s longer than the planet (even though that’s a feat from an opening and therefore non canon) would be an outlier. And even if I did think outliers didn't exist, I still would have every right to comment and discuss these matters.
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"I never said I don't believe in Outliers, I do! For example, I think the Hulk shaking infinite dimensions with a thunderclap is an outlier. I am very reasonable."

Just because you're not wholly absurd doesn't mean you're not wrong still.
 
Like I pointed out months ago, it requires several more loops of logic to argue Roshi (Max Power) isn't 5-C. AoE gets thrown out the window when the franchise abuses that concept on a daily, everything else in support is written as an inconsistency, and things we explicitly don't use (ie the Daizenchuu) is somehow valid?

Scaling DB based on KP's city bust feat:

  • Considers Master Roshi's 5-C feat an outlier.
  • Considers Master Roshi's accidental 7-B feat the maximum of his power? Which, by the way, was only 3 times lower than KP's calc.
  • Considers King Piccolo's own 6-B - High 6-A statement an outlier or outright lie.
  • Considers Kami's 5-C creation feat an outlier or unacceptable.
    • Even if we go by the headcanon that Shenron was summoned (something we know is never ever referenced in the series and has a tight time frame given two back-to-back wishes within the 3 years gap), it's already been stated that Shenron isn't stronger than Kami, but equal.
  • Consider the Goku moon busting Kamehameha statement an outlier because while it literally calls it a moon busting attack it's still a reference to Roshi's outlier as if that's the important part.
  • Considers Goku not getting much stronger (between EoDB and BoZ) a lie.
  • Ignores Piccolo BoZ and Piccolo EoDB being placed near each other in power.
  • Popo and Kami somehow can detect the dragon balls without the radar, despite the radar clearly being needed.
  • Ignores that the Super Kamehameha in the Pjr. Saga is >>> Piccolo in the BoZ.
Scaling based on the significant amount of 5-C stuffs:

  • Considers King Piccolo's 7-B feat an outlier, if not AoE control, given he already destroyed most of the city just a couple chapters ago with the wave of his hand.
 
I already addressed all of this.

Matthew_Schroeder said:
Okay.

  • Roshi's Moon level feat is absolutely an outlier. We are shown Roshi's full power in an earlier arc and it's only mountain level. Later on in every arc up until the Saiyan Saga we see the full power of stronger characters and it is always billions of times weaker than moon level.
  • King Piccolo's "High 6-A statement" is pure bullshit, it doesn't exist. Piccolo was talking about "Destroying the world" by blowing up cities and wiping out humanity, this is clear if you show the full scene where Piccolo takes over the world and declares himself king. You are just taking a statement out of context to wank.
  • Kami's creation feat has been addressed in this thread, it does not scale to physical power. It is meaningless overall.
  • Is the Moon busting statement in the manga? No? Then it's meaningless, Daizenshuu is always secondary and Goku being 'moon-busting' in the classic manga without ever demonstrating such a feat is unproven, and also an outlier since the only moon level feat in classic is contradicted by every other feat.
  • Goku trained for 5 years. Power levels increases in Dragon Ball are utterly arbitrary, they do not follow linear logical progression. If Goku does not depict much better feats after years of training, then his tier will not increase. If he demonstrates astronomically better feats are a few weeks of training, then his tier will increase. "Close in power" is meaningless.
  • Power levels are meaningless. We do not care how close the official numbers are against each other, they are mostly provided by secondary sources and not the actual manga, and the increase is utterly arbitrary. What matters are the feats, not arbitrary power levels.
  • The stuff about the dragon balls is utterly irrelevant and gish-gallop fallacy. It's just trying to make your argument larger than it actually is.
I "debunked it". There. Pretty weak arguments overall if you ask me.

Now you can stop pretending people are refusing to address your "flawless arguments" just because you put a bunch of them next to each other. Most of the stuff in that post was addressed constantly, only separately in individual posts. You were just being dishonest.
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Zamasu_Chan said:
His goal was to wipe out the island and Kill Goku. Not destroy the planet.
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The main goal was to kill Goku, the fact it would also kill everyone else just didn't matter because he was evil. If he actively wanted to kill everyone there and was just limiting his AOE, he likely could have just released a lower effort blast to wipe them out and used a much smaller attack against Goku.

Not every anti feat can be dismissed using a single phrase, sometimes it just makes less sense for them to be 5-B over Low 6-B

I will admit that I did forget about the final explosion but, that is an actual demonstration of Ki Control, limiting it as much as possible while still releasing an insane amount of power against Buu, while they have several Tier 4 feats by that point to contradict the idea that's their absolute maximum power
 
I also saw Matt's "counterargument".
  • Just calling it an outlier doesn't make it an outlier. We have several other 5-C feats and statements before DBZ, why ignore them here? 7-A Roshi is stronger than 7-B KP?
  • I was referring to King Piccolo stating he'll just destroy 1 /43 of the world on Piccolo Day. Actually find out what I'm talking about before you try "debunking" it.
  • You do remember that Shenron can't do anything more powerful than Kami, correct?
  • I brought up the guidebook because that's what's being used as evidence against King Piccolo. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
  • Goku literally says he hasn't grown much more powerful, it has nothing to do with feats.
  • You're partially correct, power levels are meaningless. But when restricted Z Piccolo is comparable to EoDB Piccolo, it speaks volumes. Or better yet, when Goku's kamehameha (comparable to Roshi) is still higher than Early DBZ Goku's power level, it outright just destroys that motion.
  • I like how you didn't even bother debating the points about how its incredibly unlikely for the dragon balls to have been summoned at that time.

    EDIT: Matt posted them again, that'll be good for context.
 
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SomebodyData said:
  • Just calling it an outlier doesn't make it an outlier.
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I explained why it's an outlier. In depth. I can do the opposite statement.

"Just saying it's not an outlier doesn't make it stop being an outlier". Actually make arguments and not blanket statements.

SomebodyData said:
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He's talking about 1 of 43 cities, my dude. Not literally 1/43rd of the World's landmass. I know what I'm talking about. King Piccolo's statements are not the tier you are implying they are.

SomebodyData said:
  • You do remember that Shenron can't do anything more powerful than Kami, correct?
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Has nothing to do with Power Levels. It's hax magic. Dende is super weak, can't fight, and can probably be killed by a bullet, but his Shenron is better than Kami's.

SomebodyData said:
  • I brought up the guidebook because that's what's being used as evidence against King Piccolo. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Click to expand...
I'm not using the Databooks I'm using the actual manga. Databook is secondary evidence at best. I'm not having any cake nor do I want to eat it, thank you.

SomebodyData said:
  • Goku literally says he hasn't grown much more powerful, it has nothing to do with feats.
Click to expand...
Feats wise he is much more powerful, his statement is irrelevant. The only reason his tier is better is due to feats.

SomebodyData said:
  • You're partially correct, power levels are meaningless. But when restricted Z Piccolo is comparable to EoDB Piccolo, which speaks volumes.
Click to expand...
He's not. He spent 5 years training to develop an ultimate move that's much stronger than what he had prior. The actual series contradicts this. Power level numbers are kinda meaningless no offense.

SomebodyData said:
I like how you didn't even bother debating the points about how its incredibly unlikely for the dragon balls to have been summoned at that time.
Click to expand...
The Dragon Balls have absolutely nothing to do with any of this. We are talking about Roshi's feat.

And given how Kami and Popo recreated Shenron, I suspect their "recreation" of the moon was similarly magic that doesn't scale.
 
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