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Dragon Ball Revisions that will make u cry

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To rebuttal me pointing out several feats you just stated, without acknowledging the other feats:
  • "Roshi's Moon level feat is absolutely an outlier. We are shown Roshi's full power in an earlier arc and it's only mountain level. Later on in every arc up until the Saiyan Saga we see the full power of stronger characters and it is always billions of times weaker than moon level."
He says providences not cities though, within the very scan I linked? You think there are 43 cities in the entire planet?

Ignoring the fact that we do scale creation feats with AP, Dende's Shenron is never stated to be stronger. Dende's just doesn't have the voluntary restrictions for wishes.

If you're ignoring the databook, that's fine. Like I said, I brought it up because it was being used to debate the feat back when I originally listed everything out.

You're using A>B>A logic here. He has better feats because the other feats are outliers, which you're using to prove is an outlier here.

Goku's EoDB Super Kamehameha is listed higher than BoZ unrestricted Goku, I would argue that's significant. We don't use the PLs as an absolute, but when one is higher than the other, we use that general idea.

The dragon balls were brought up to take away Kami's 5-C feat. Considering its another 5-C feat within DB, I'd say its relevant.

As for your discussion with Goji, it's not headcanon when Goku says he recreated the moon.
 
SomebodyData said:
He says providences not cities though, within the very scan I linked? You think there are 43 cities in the entire planet?
Click to expand...
Potentially, yes. Dragon Ball canon is also that there's only 20 something planets with life in the universe. Akira Toriyama doesn't use numbers that big.

And we see one of the cities / provinces Piccolo intends to blow up. They're not that big.

SomebodyData said:
Ignoring the fact that we do scale creation feats with AP,
Click to expand...
This point is irrelevant. We scale to them when they are done through like, instantaneous reality warping and stuff like this. Creation Feats when they take time or specific processes don't scale to AP for the same reason real world architects aren't High 8-C.
 
The world is not divided into 43 cities, we blatantly see areas outside of cities.
 
SomebodyData said:
The world is not divided into 43 cities, we blatantly see areas outside of cities.
Click to expand...
Most of the Dragon Ball world isn't composed of huge sprawling metropolises, we see this in the early arc of dragon balls. There are plenty of isolated areas with little technology.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
Potentially, yes. Dragon Ball canon is also that there's only 20 something planets with life in the universe. Akira Toriyama doesn't use numbers that big.

And we see one of the cities / provinces Piccolo intends to blow up. They're not that big.


This point is irrelevant. We scale to them when they are done through like, instantaneous reality warping and stuff like this. Creation Feats when they take time or specific processes don't scale to AP for the same reason real world architects aren't High 8-C.
Click to expand...
Wait so it was toriyama who wrote that or Toyotaro?
 
Yeah, that's the point. Piccolo said the world is divided into 43 providences. To say its divided among 43 cities is just pushing this argument to ridiculous.

I don't think at any point did magic in DB, specifically creation magic, wasn't instantaneous.
 
SomebodyData said:
Yeah, that's the point. Piccolo said the world is divided into 43 providences. To say its divided among 43 cities is just pushing this argument to ridiculous.
Click to expand...
When we see the place Piccolo blows up it's just a city. Sure there's area outside the big city that's technically part of the province's territory but he wasn't wiping out a huge chunk of the world.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
Dragon Ball canon is also that there's only 20 something planets with life in the universe.
Click to expand...
Ah yes because the amount of aliens there are is absolutely comparable to the amount of cities there are. Despite IRL there being no proof of aliens yet and the amount of cities we have being a key aspect of how society and humanity as a whole functions.
 
I don't have time to give any input now. I'll come back to this later when things have calmed down.

For now I am just going to leave a relevant thread where the Kami moon thing was discussed before.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Discuss Everything About VS Battles Wiki | Fandom

"Bleach Is No Longer Universal" and more great discussions about VS Battles Wiki
vsbattles.fandom.com
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
"I never said I don't believe in Outliers, I do! For example, I think the Hulk shaking infinite dimensions with a thunderclap is an outlier. I am very reasonable."

Just because you're not wholly absurd doesn't mean you're not wrong still.
Click to expand...
Amazing how me simply going against the grain of this subjective hobby makes me wrong.
 
Greenshifter said:
Ah yes because the amount of aliens there are is absolutely comparable to the amount of cities there are. Despite IRL there being no proof of aliens yet and the amount of cities we have being a key aspect of how society and humanity as a whole functions.
Click to expand...
The point of my argument is that Toriyama often uses unrealistically low numbers for things we would instinctively assume are bigger.
 
I don't really see anyone going against the DBS anime stuff, at the very least.

I've seen some concern over 3-B Base Goku in the manga, but 5-C Roshi overtook that, at the very least.
 
Truth be told, after thinking about it more, Low 2-C base Goku, Broly, and Vegeta is a little high at this point.

Hit, 17('s barriers and Self Destruct), and Anilaza I'm pretty alright with, though.

EDIT: 3-B base Goku seems a bit high, but I think 4-B base Goku feels low, too. But I'm unsure as to where he'd be.
 
@Matthew_Schroeder I said creation, not life manipulation.

You're referring to West City? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't KP just wave his hand and destroyed the city, but got interrupted by Tien before doing anything else?

@AKM sama the main topic ended with a staff vs member divide for the most part, where we mentioned to recreate the thread later.

@Zeta I actually don't agree with the 3-B and Low 2-C parts lol
 
SomebodyData said:
@Matthew_Schroeder I said creation, not life manipulation.
Click to expand...
I would definitely still classify it as part of the magic abilities that Kami and Popo have, and one which we actually see on screen. Kami bringing back the moon is kind of unquantifiable since we have no idea how he did it.
 
@Matt, I see, still kind of hesistant of that. I would argue (given they've already shown instant creation through stuff like the clothes beam), that it would be more like that than the method used to bring a magic dragon to life.
 
Hit did better against Jiren than Pre-UIO SSJB Goku showed, did actual damage to him, and at this point Jiren is definitely Low 2-C for being above Infinite Zamasu, even at the level he fought UIO Goku at. Jiren more than likely didn't power down to fight Hit and did acknowledge him as interesting, last I remember, just sitting down and planning on meditating for the rest of the tournament. I say Hit at least deserves a Tournament of Power key if nothing else, personally.

Anilaza took a pretty co-ordinated effort from a group of people, at least one of which was Low 2-C at the time (Goku), due to it happening after UIO2 Goku beat Kefla.

I personally think 17's barriers are good enough to be Low 2-C given the feats described in the post, but honestly that one is probably the most up in the air thing.
 
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3-B Base Goku seems okay to be honest. Also, regarding Low 2-C, I've agreed and argued for giving it to Hit (Cage of Time), Android #17 (Shields) and Anilaza a long time ago and I still share the same opinion, though I'm admittedly neutral on giving it to Base Goku and the like.

I'll give my thoughts on the 5-C rating later on.
 
I agree with Low 2-C barriers
I agree with possibly or outright Low 2-C Hit
I agree with 3-B base Chou characters, it's pretty obvious that they are portraying base Goku to be on that level, although even if it gets turned down by staff, there is a different scaling chain to upgrade them to that level in the Future Trunks arc
I agree on Low 2-C Anilaza
I'm neutral on Roshi
 
SomebodyData said:
I was referring to King Piccolo stating he'll just destroy 1 /43 of the world on Piccolo Day. Actually find out what I'm talking about before you try "debunking" it.
Click to expand...
What exactly stops him from just, flying around and blowing up each overtime with 7-B blasts? It's a pretty big jump to assume this statement refers to him making a single attack to wipe out a continent when many 7-B attacks is much more in line with what they actually demonstrate

AKM sama said:
I don't know why this thread is actually 3 threads in one. Literally all those 3 topics in the OP deserve their own threads otherwise this will get nowhere. I don't even know which point to address. We should only focus on one of them for this thread.
Click to expand...
... You know, I entirely forgot there was even other stuff on this thread, which really demonstrates this idea. They really should have just made 3 rapid fire if they wanted to dump Dragon Ball Upgrades post CRT allowance
 
I didn’t want to get in trouble by making multiple CRTs with the same verse since it was stated over and over again “One CRT per verse”.
 
I think we should just focus on the DBS upgrades for now, since that seems to be the less contentious topic, and maybe leave the Roshi discussion for later? Of course, we could do the opposite as well.
 
So I disagree with base Chou Goku scaling to his god self. Reason being he has more consistent 'above Buu' scaling later for his normal forms. However 3-A god forms I do agree with.
Vegeta in base isn't too far above base Trunks
Goku thinks he can one shot Cell easily in Super Saiyan alone while he thinks Kid Buu is going to be tough (Also might apply to the Z profiles to show the gap between Cell and Buu)
Goku and Vegeta are pretty even in the entire run of the manga in base.
Black bodied SS2 Trunks in base who after ten years is MUCH stronger than Teen Gohan vs Cell and then proves equal to SS3 Goku but then we see later that Black can turn into a Super Saiyan himself and gets dominated by SS2 Vegeta meaning and since they were just equal in base, Goku scales this high too. Hundreds of times their Buu saga level, still 4-B, but much higher.
There is absolutely no evidence for 'absorbing god into base' what actually happened is Goku learned how to use Super Saiyan God again.
God form is something Goku couldn't even imagine before
The universe feat is Goku just getting used to his new strength, similar to the anime.
Goku got stronger as a Super Saiyan God before firing a Kamehameha that seems to light up everything around which could be interpreted as the universe but I won't claim that definitively.
Blue is above God by about 10x even when imperfect. This jump alone should already put them at universal to be honest.
Then there's the Beerus and Champa fight in which they were going to destroy the universe but while they were fighting with some effort, it's pretty unreasonable to say Beerus would be smiling if he was really angry and using his full strength. So manga GoDs are 3-A fairly casually.
And before anyone says "uh but Goku scared of the universe getting destroyed!!!" Manga Zeno is still low multiversal and it's even more blatant than the anime.
Perfected Blue, Kaioken Blue, Evolution Blue and both Omen and Perfect Ultra Instinct should upscale.
 
Goku Black adapted during his first fight with Goku and Vegeta, and was able to match SSB Vegeta in just his SSJ form after his first Zenkai. That means SSJ Black became 3-B, and later on in the arc Goku and Vegeta grew much stronger than Black even in his SSJ Rosé (his version of SSB) form, so they scale to 3-B as regular SSJs. That means their bases should be 3-B as well, because the power boost provided by SSJ is definitely not high enough to take them from 4-B to 3-B.
 
@DMUA that's a good point, but he then clarifies after saying he'll destroy the 43 regions, he clarifies he'll destroy the region instantly as mercy. (Vol 11. pg 49)
 
I don't exactly have the manga on hand, so that is another scan you should probably say
 
Seeing as how the movie version of Resurrection 'F' is canon to the Super manga (the RoF manga states the story continues in the movie), it's safe to say that Goku did absorb Super Saiyan God into his base, which was the catalyst for God-like Saiyan, which he uses in the Resurrection 'F' manga, so yeah, 3-B base Goku after the God of Destruction Beerus Saga.

And yea, Hit held his own against Jiren, briefly. He also to get a few good hits in on Jiren, and even took a barrage of attacks from him without being negged on the spot like virtually everyone else before that point. He also managed to trap Jiren in the Cage of Time, even forcing him to struggle somewhat in order to break out, so it doesn't seem too far-fetched to say that Hit at that point was Low 2-C, at the very least Low 2-C with Time Skip.

People who scale to King Piccolo being Relativistic is contradicted by the fact Goku, who was more powerful than Piccolo at that point, was still considered to be slower than lightning, which is Massively Hypersonic+. Along with that, power level increases aren't linear, seeing as how a jump from 8,000+ to 16,000 was enough to bump Goku from Small Planet level to Planet level, despite the gap between the two tiers being 137x, so comparing Dragon Ball top-tiers to beginning of Dragon Ball Z characters based on power levels isn't very sound.

Let's see, what are some anti-feats to the 5-B thing?

  • King Piccolo's strongest attack, the Explosive Demon Wave, only destroyed a city, Eastern City to be exact.




  • Piccolo Jr.'s strongest attack, the Hyper Explosive Demon Wave, only nuked the island.




  • While Daizenshuu-only, Goku's Super Kamehameha was stated to be to shatter the moon.




    However, it also states that Roshi's Max Power Kamehameha has enough power to destroy the moon, so it's rather self-contradictory.

King Piccolo killing Shenron doesn't make him Moon level, since Shenron recreated the moon through magic, which is not the same as power from Ki.
 
SomebodyData said:
@DMUA that's a good point, but he then clarifies after saying he'll destroy the 43 regions, he clarifies he'll destroy the region instantly as mercy. (Vol 11. pg 49)
Click to expand...
According to King Piccolo, the Earth is divided into 43 provinces. When he pulls a number from his box, he says "Province 29! The city of the west!" which would seem to imply that Earth is divided into 43 cities.
 
Which inofitself just seems like Toriyama does not have a very good sense of scale but it just do be like that for an aloof comedy action manga writer who only started this stuff in the first place for smoking money
 
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