Dragon Ball MWI undoing continuation thread

[Chariot190]

"上半分" this maybe?

That then begs the question, how would that interact with Super? Given the blatant discrepancies between the source and the guide.
Source would be cool.

 

[Hasty12345]

Looking at the text, I don't actually see the word for half, just "upper part".
"上部"

Oh... This is interesting

If it doesn't say upper half then there's no indicator on size and it's just an artistic representation.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Super anime cosmology map has to many inaccuracies with the model that both author and manga shares so I don't think it would be beneficial to use super model not to mention the fact it lacks the most important parts of the cosmological structure Akira toriyama had clear intentions of what would db macrocosm looks like

 

[Chariot190]

Super cosmology map has to many inaccuracies with the model that both author and manga shares so I don't think it would be beneficial to use super model not to mention the fact it lacks the most important parts of the cosmological structure Akira toriyama had clear intentions of what would db macrocosm looks like

90% of which are abstractions. Best we actually have is that there's a mortal universe, an afterlife, and a world of the kais that based on like, 12 showings doesnt actually fit the model anyway.
Reminder, the actual source takes precedent, Akira could have said something a dozen times, it doesn't matter if the manga behaves differently. And Super is the current structure, doubly so as the cosmology only effects stuff Super onward. If it changed stuff, it'd just be a retcon.

 

[Killerdrone123]

90% of which are abstractions. Best we actually have is that there's a mortal universe, an afterlife, and a world of the kais that based on like, 12 showings doesnt actually fit the model anyway.
Reminder, the actual source takes precedent, Akira could have said something a dozen times, it doesn't matter if the manga behaves differently. And Super is the current structure, doubly so as the cosmology only effects stuff Super onward. If it changed stuff, it'd just be a retcon.

Pretty sure we have intime showing of macrocosm of uni10 but that's in super manga when we were showed plus I don't think you can sidelined author intention of viewing the cosmology as mere 'abstraction' when even the current updated chozenshu guides depicts the same model time and time and time again in every piece of db media and focus on the point that yes this is the macrocosm and only time that structure was shown like what 3 to 4 times.

 

[Chariot190]

Pretty sure we have intime showing of macrocosm of uni10 but that's in super manga

Yeah, we do, using an abstracted map, unless you think U10 is less than 10m km wide?
We also have a few showings in the manga where that isn't how it's depicted, see the issue?

when we were showed plus I don't think you can sidelined author intention of viewing the cosmology as mere 'abstraction' when even the current updated chozenshu guides depicts the same model time and time and time again in every piece of db media and focus on the point that yes this is the macrocosm and only time that structure was shown like what 3 to 4 times.

Ignoring DoA exists and the source and how it actually behaves will always take precedence.
Ok then, 10m km DBS because it's a universe, in time showing. 4-B Zeno here we come.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Yeah, we do, using an abstracted map, unless you think U10 is less than 10m km wide?
We also have a few showings in the manga where that isn't how it's depicted, see the issue?

Ignoring DoA exists and the source and how it actually behaves will always take precedence.
Ok then, 10m km DBS because it's a universe, in time showing. 4-B Zeno here we come.

Never said anything regarding the size more so implying how the cosmological structure looks like also what source there is like 7 sources plus the author himself which contradicts the structure of the map plue wasn't it like only 2 or 3 times we see that in the manga too at best you could argue that it is just living universe and not the entire map of macrocosm also the fact that we see only 3 galaxy in whis representation in manga so 3b u7

 

[Chariot190]

Never said anything regarding the size

"Pretty sure we have intime showing of macrocosm of uni10 but that's in super manga" - You

If that is a literal, universe depiction, shown in real time, then, unfortunately, that's how big it is. You can't argue what you just said and then ignore what it actually shows.

more so implying how the cosmological structure looks like

Via an abstracted map, all but one of which stems from secondary material.

also what source there is like 7 sources plus the author himself which contradicts the structure of the map

The source of the scan above obviously?
And again, the source takes precedence.

plue wasn't it like only 2 or 3 times we see that in the manga too at best you could argue that it is just living universe and not the entire map of macrocosm

Except we know it's talking about the Universes, as defined, as a whole. If it was just the mortal parts, it wouldn't be the universes in question, and even then, it'd still be at odds, as they're depicted as full spheres, not halves like the model would have you believe.

 

[Killerdrone123]

"Pretty sure we have intime showing of macrocosm of uni10 but that's in super manga" - You

If that is a literal, universe depiction, shown in real time, then, unfortunately, that's how big it is. You can't argue what you just said and then ignore what it actually shows.

Via an abstracted map, all but one of which stems from secondary material.

The source of the scan above obviously?
And again, the source takes precedence.

Except we know it's talking about the Universes, as defined, as a whole. If it was just the mortal parts, it wouldn't be the universes in question, and even then, it'd still be at odds, as they're depicted as full spheres, not halves like the model would have you believe.

As like I have already told whis depictions literally shows three galaxy and whis say this is universe 7 and 6 the so does that mean universes are 3b now .Anime perspective which was shown to us could simply be the living universe and the spheres could be space time barriers they were looking to us as finite because we were seeing them from the perspective of neutral zone which is literally a higher dimension(5d) so it showing space time barriers of living universe as finite won't matter here

Tbh I can't change your view on this so agree to disagree

 

[Hasty12345]

depicting universes as massive galaxies is far more common than spinning tops

 

[Chariot190]

As like I have already told whis depictions literally shows three galaxy

So? DBZ has super massive galaxies?
Why does everyone suddenly forget that when trying to say nuh uh to it?

Do you want 3-B? Because by ignoring the existence of the beeg galaxies, that isn't gonna change the fact that's what we see, like it ain't gonna magically invalidate it.

and whis say this is universe 7 and 6 the so does that mean universes are 3b now .

It means they're 3-A due to the existence of super massive galaxies.
If, for some reason we ignore that, then yeah 3-B due to having about 100 I can count on screen.

Anime perspective which was shown to us could simply be the living universe and the spheres could be space time barriers they were looking to us as finite because we were seeing them from the perspective of neutral zone which is literally a higher dimension(5d) so it showing space time barriers of living universe as finite won't matter here

Are we really doing this again?

Anime straight up deconfirms the model (for the anime).

It isn't the living universe, it's all of U7, and all of U6. I don't even know why you'd mention that.

The spheres probably are, in fact, enclosed space-times, but what it? We can still see into it.

Ignoring the fact seeing from from a 5D perspective (we aren't even, they're merely 4D universes, embedded in a 5D plane, but we're still seeing it from a 3D PoV, and even if we weren't, the size of which wouldn't be changed anyhow).
But, again, we can literally see into the things, that argument doesn't work if I can count the things manually.

I'm starting to be convinced ya'll don't know what 5D actually entails. Just because you're 5D, doesn't make things look infinitely smaller than you, it's you who's infinitely bigger (and not even inherently the case), and the dimension itself stays the same.

Fortunately, we're not talking about the anime, we're talking about the manga. The manga lacks the SS scene, so there's actually an argument to be had.

Tbh I can't change your view on this so agree to disagree

i mean not if you say the funny u10 model was a real time showing you cant, by doing so, youre saying we're seeing snake way in real time too

 

[RedReaper616]

“Abstracted Maps.”

Ignores all the times they were shown to be literal (outside of scale) for the Super Anime’s interpretation, whose own universal visual makes no sense because it lacks the other dimensions. Furthermore, “a big galaxy” doesn’t explain the visual we get of the Macrocosms from the SS moment. No Galaxy was ever displayed that large, and even then that moment’s an outlier compared to all the data I’ll list in this paragraph. Moreover, given Toei’s Z model is the directly canon information given/uses by Toriyama, as stated by their own BtS, was used in the DBS Manga, was used as a literal visual in Kai, is supported by all the guides, and all the games, etc. etc. it would make no sense to take this moment over the literal map.

Open secret that Toriyama’s influence on the Anime was cliff notes for the plot and left the visuals/in between up to the Anime Staff, making it not “Death of the Author” but literally you putting others above the Author.

Blatant sidestepping of the evidence we know to be factually true—Toriyama’s direct influence on the Toei model being them literally asking for canon information.

No evidence of the “abstracted model” for being abstracted outside of “muh size cuz Snake Way,” when most people are against using it TO SCALE, and rather want to use it for what IT IS, TORIYAMA’S LITERAL VISUAL FOR THE COSMOLOGY,.

Will probably argue that Anime is the “Primary Source,” when the Primary Source is actuality Toriyama, with the Manga and Anime being adaptations of his work given to Toyotarou and Anime Staff, making this entirely invalid.

Wonders why people are not enthused about why this revision is being pushed through—It only makes sense if you literally nitpick every factor, create mental gymnastics, inflate the logical holes, and sidestep basic conclusions and concepts, like: “Toriyama literally gave them canon info, thus it’s valid.” Or, “You can’t claim it’s abstracted when in every instance but the anime, which isn’t the primary source, had notably terrible creation conditions, is the outlier, etc. it was a completely literal visual representation outside of the scale. (Which everyone with a brain agrees with.)”

Huh? Oh, me? What am I doing? Reflecting. On life and stuff.

 

[Chariot190]

“Abstracted Maps.”

Yes.

Ignores all the times they were shown to be literal (outside of scale) for the Super Anime’s interpretation,

So, never?
Also if they aren't to scale, then they're abstracted?

whose own universal visual makes no sense because it lacks the other dimensions.

It is what it is, get over it.
We don't even know if that's the case, the dimensional walls could be transparent too as the big ones, or maybe said dimensions to small to be visible, **** if we know, we just know what we see.

Furthermore, “a big galaxy” doesn’t explain the visual we get of the Macrocosms from the SS moment.

Retcon, non-visible, or hell, who gives a damn? It is what it is.

Also it ain't even that moment, I've found two more, maybe 3

No Galaxy was ever displayed that large,

Except then and there? What sort of argument is that? We can see a mega galaxy drawing smaller ones, RIGHT THERE. The scene itself is evidence.
also for dudes who love using guides, why are you ignoring the fact said guides also establish big galaxies.

and even then that moment’s an outlier compared to all the data I’ll list in this paragraph.

It's also the ONLY time we actually see it.
and also directly corroborates the Whis and Zeno showings, so it's actually a direct visual, and 2 supporting visuals, both in universe and the main material.

Moreover, given Toei’s Z model is the directly canon information given/uses by Toriyama, as stated by their own BtS, was used in the DBS Manga, was used as a literal visual in Kai, is supported by all the guides, and all the games, etc. etc. it would make no sense to take this moment over the literal map.

The fact it is, quite literally the only time we actually see it, ie, the single most important showing, and is supported by Whis.
Games don't mean shit.
Kai don't mean shit.
Death of the author is a thing.
Guides only matter if they don't contradict the source material.

Real-time, in-universe, literal, as is, showing of two separate universes (plus a handful of support, within the anime at least) vs. 1 not scale map in the manga and bunch of random side stuff.
Hmm...

Open secret that Toriyama’s influence on the Anime was cliff notes for the plot and left the visuals/in between up to the Anime Staff, making it not “Death of the Author” but literally you putting others above the Author.

Yeah, and? They're "the author" too, they animate the show, the decide how stuff looks, we use said stuff.
Anime canon is that now because that's what they made it.

If they backpedal later on cool, atm, it is what it is.

Fortunately, we're splitting the manga and anime, so this doesn't effect the manga.

Blatant sidestepping of the evidence we know to be factually true—Toriyama’s direct influence on the Toei model being them literally asking for canon information.

That isn't side stepping? It just doesn't matter.

No evidence of the “abstracted model” for being abstracted outside of “muh size cuz Snake Way,”

Literally means it's abstracted?

when most people are against using it TO SCALE, and rather want to use it for what IT IS, TORIYAMA’S LITERAL VISUAL FOR THE COSMOLOGY,.

Not how it works. If that isn't to scale (ie, abstracted), what's to say other parts aren't too? How would we know? Can tell you right now the World of the Kai's has issues too, so it ain't just Snake Way. What is, and isn't literal? Maybe it's just a simplified overview? How do we know?

The literal visual ***** up WotK's and snake way so...?

This is just trying to have your cake and eat it too.
While ignoring, handwaving the anime because DBS anime hates ya'll ig, even the manga has a few instances of contradictory depictions of the model.

Wonders why people are not enthused about why this revision is being pushed through—It only makes sense if you literally nitpick every factor, create mental gymnastics, inflate the logical holes, and sidestep basic conclusions and concepts, like: “Toriyama literally gave them canon info, thus it’s valid.” Or, “You can’t claim it’s abstracted when in every instance but the anime, which isn’t the primary source, had notably terrible creation conditions, is the outlier, etc. it was a completely literal visual representation outside of the scale. (Which everyone with a brain agrees with.)”

"It only makes sense if you ignore every in-universe depiction (of which there's 3-4), ignore the literal direct real-time showing, cherry-pick evidence and handwave every instance, ignore the fact the map is abstracted, and etc", yeah see I can do that too?

"Not the primary source material", it is, for the anime, manga it's own thing now apparently
Not agreeing with it, doesn't make it "notably terrible".
Kinda hard to be an outlier when it's 1 to 0 on being the only actual showing (and it's like 4-0 on contradicting the model, at least for the anime).
"Is a complete literal visual, except this part", a paradoxical claim.

Also that last bit I feel like is actively insulting towards the opposition no?

 

[ScalingRandomVerse]

Ok then, 10m km DBS because it's a universe, in time showing. 4-B Zeno here we come.

Please do this

 

[Chariot190]

Please do this

No God wants to be a part of a DBZ CRT, if only we could be so lucky.

 

[LordDestroit10K]

I think this part qualifies for the Universe standards, but it’s stated that the afterlife is a contrast from the living world and also that it makes up the top half of the globe of DB. Also, I think it helps support the: “The Cosmos” name.

So, I think that the afterlife fits the bill for mirroring the living world based off of this statement.

So… we’ve Afterlife getting called “cosmos” and the upper half of the huge sphere, and contrasting with the Living World, a universal size realm. I think this is enough.

 

[Hasty12345]

So… we’ve Afterlife getting called “cosmos” and the upper half of the huge sphere, and contrasting with the Living World, a universal size realm. I think this is enough.

except the translation apparently doesn't say half and cosmos is a super vague term that doesn't prove anything.

 

[Chariot190]

So… we’ve Afterlife getting called “cosmos”

Means nothing.

and the upper half of the huge sphere,

An actual point to be fair, would be enough, in a vacuum.
But we have to compare it to the source first to see if it's contradicted which it kinda is.

and contrasting with the Living World, a universal size realm. I think this is enough.

Means nothing.

 

[LordDestroit10K]

except the translation apparently doesn't say half and cosmos is a super vague term that doesn't prove anything.

Yes it does (the kanji “半分”)

Meaning of 半分 in Japanese | RomajiDesu Japanese dictionary

Definition of 半分, meaning of 半分 in Japanese: 2 definitions matched, 8 related definitions, and 83 example sentences;

m.romajidesu.com

半分 - Jisho.org

jisho.org

 

[Hasty12345]

Yes it does (the kanji “半分”)

Meaning of 半分 in Japanese | RomajiDesu Japanese dictionary

Definition of 半分, meaning of 半分 in Japanese: 2 definitions matched, 8 related definitions, and 83 example sentences;

m.romajidesu.com

半分 - Jisho.org

jisho.org

idk Japanese I'm just going off of what's above and I have deep-rooted trust issues with people pretending to know anything about Japanese.

Visit any StS CRT from the last 2 years and you'll understand.

The phrase should be verified by a trustworthy translator regardless.

 

[LordDestroit10K]

An actual point to be fair, would be enough, in a vacuum.
But we have to compare it to the source first to see if it's contradicted which it kinda is.

“Contradicted” by?

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

“Contradicted” by?

I suppose he's referring to the DBS anime.

 

[LordDestroit10K]

idk Japanese I'm just going off of what's above and I have deep-rooted trust issues with people pretending to know anything about Japanese.

Visit any StS CRT from the last 2 years and you'll understand.

The phrase should be verified by a trustworthy translator regardless.

Someone said above that the image doesn’t say "half", but nevertheless I didn't see you telling him that we have to resort to a trustworthy translator as you are doing now, how curious isn't it?

 

[Hasty12345]

Someone said above that the image doesn’t say "half", but nevertheless I didn't see you telling him that we have to resort to a trustworthy translator as you are doing now, how curious isn't it?

Dragon Ball MWI undoing continuation thread

. . my next thread continuing from this one will cover this universal model depictions btw, let's focus on the afterlife size part for now ok?

vsbattles.com

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I suppose he's referring to the DBS anime.

As far as I'm concerned, If there's a source that IS contradictory in here, it's the DBS anime with those funny bubbles.

 

[Hasty12345]

Before you try to paint me as some sort of hater, the moment I saw valid proof of the size of the afterlife I jumped at the chance to agree with 2-C.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

As far as I'm concerned, If there's a source that IS contradictory in here, it's the DBS anime with those funny bubbles.

I don't think the map in the anime contradicts this, not least because it only shows the observed Universe and not all the realms contained in the Universes, so it's not to scale.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I don't think the map in the anime contradicts this, not least because it only shows the observed Universe and not all the realms contained in the Universes, so it's not to scale.

Luffy, I'm talking about the galaxy bubbles showed by Whis in the U6/I7 tournament arc,not the map.

 

[Killerdrone123]

I don't want to get into translation wars but the kanji for half is present there

◆巨大な球体の上半分が天界。

半分

Half

Edit:Lord destroit beat me to it

 

[LordDestroit10K]

I suppose he's referring to the DBS anime.

As far as I'm concerned, If there's a source that IS contradictory in here, it's the DBS anime with those funny bubbles.

If we rely only on the bubbles that the anime shows, then the universes don’t contain any realm... ah, anyway DBS manga already shows the map that Toriyama made, so this should not be contradictory in any way…

 

[LordDestroit10K]

I don't want to get into translation ward but the kanji for half is present there

◆巨大な球体の上半分が天界。

半分

Half

Ofc it says “half”, there is no need to a professional or trustworthy translator to see that

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

If we rely only on the bubbles that the anime shows, then the universes don’t contain any realm... ah, anyway DBS manga already shows the map that Toriyama made, so this should not be contradictory in any way…

People here seem to be taking them seriously,but I agree with you.

Not only we have the map with its supporting evidence in guidebooks and all that, but in-verse sources (DBS Manga) show that this is the actual structure of the universe.

Not only is the DBS anime's depiction contradicted by many reliable sources, but I wanna add that it was added in an explanatory context, and thus it is completely fine to question whether this should be taken as literal or not, even disregarding the other pieces of evidence.

 

[Hasty12345]

I don't want to get into translation ward but the kanji for half is present there

◆巨大な球体の上半分が天界。

半分

Half

Edit:Lord destroit beat me to it

Not that it's important and a human translator should still verify. Every translation I can get an AI or other translation software to spit out has some sort of implication of the afterlife being half the size of the spinning top.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Not that it's important and a human translator should still verify. Every translation I can get an AI or other translation software to spit out has some sort of implication of the afterlife being half the size of the spinning top.

Yes it is verified by a human translator that's why we took so much time from finding the scan to translating it plus the kanji is just straight mentioned in jisho.org

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Yeah, get a translator regardless. It's always nice to have a human translation.

Edit : Ninja'd.

 

[Chariot190]

“Contradicted” by?

ah, anyway DBS manga already shows the map that Toriyama made,

Yeah, an abstracted map, you think the uni is 20m km? Because we can see snake way just fine in said panel. Like either that is uni 10, or it isn't, no having your cake and eating it too man.

so this should not be contradictory in any way…

Whis. Zeno. That. The multiple zoom outs (i mean through space and stuff that criss crosses into other realms). Etc. Like come on man, why we gotta go through this again?

If we rely only on the bubbles that the anime shows, then the universes don’t contain any realm...

Kinda sucks that's the single time we actually see it then.
Also not inherently true. Especially factoring in WotK but like, I've said enough times now...

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Luffy, I'm talking about the galaxy bubbles showed by Whis in the U6/I7 tournament arc,not the map.

I know, so I am saying, that these balls shaped galaxies are just the observed Universe and do not contain the realms

 

[Chariot190]

Not only is the DBS anime's depiction contradicted by many reliable sources, but I wanna add that it was added in an explanatory context, and thus it is completely fine to question whether this should be taken as literal or not, even disregarding the other pieces of evidence.

Dog wtf,


That ain't an explanatory context.

It's quite literally "the only actual time we see it without fluff vs guides and stuff that should only be used if not contradicted".

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Dog wtf,


That ain't an explanatory context.

It's quite literally "the only actual time we see it without fluff vs guides and stuff that should only be used if not contradicted".

This is just the observed Universe, it is not to scale, it does not contain the kingdoms.

 

[Chariot190]

I know, so I am saying, that these balls shaped galaxies are just the observed Universe and do not contain the realms

"This is Universe 7" not "This is actually 1/3rd of Universe 7".

This is just the observed Universe, it is not to scale, it does not contain the kingdoms.

Do not make stuff up and slap in your headcanon please. That is not stated. That is not implied. That is also, quite literally both Universe 7 AND 6, as seen, from the outside, as a whole.