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Dragon Ball Heroes Speed

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AKM sama said:
I didn't deny it.
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Oke then, sorry
AKM sama said:
Not necessarily to that degree. For example, if I create a mini black hole in Dimension A that is capable of working across space-time, I can also make it work it in the space-time of Dimension B to suck it in without moving Dimension B all the way to Dimension A. A space-time distortion can happen across many different space-times simultaneously, they don't need to travel distances.
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Sorry if i sound rube but you are the one who need to prove that, because by your logic, it must shown that the black hole in question connected to other dimensions, realms, whatever it is via some space-time distortion, or tunnel, etc.......The scan however clearly shown that the Black Hole connect to Mechikabura's inner body, only a hole in the middle of his chest is "open".
AKM sama said:
It goes back to what I said about not knowing exactly how the universes are getting sucked. I cannot prove something that is not shown. I just stated a more likely and common scenario of how these feats take place which makes it a rang feat more than a speed feat. If you can prove that all the universes actually moved infinite distance to get sucked in the black hole, I wouldn't have any problems with infinite speed.
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So with the context itself and the scan. The black hole itself was heavily implied to have sucked everything, similarly to how it sucked the Time Nest. In the same scan where the Time Nest is sucked, it was stated that 'Everything is sucked into the darkness' (すべて闇 に吸い込まれる), while showcasing the black hole moving the Time Nest inside. This would heavily suggest that the process was all-and-all similar




This is Fu's scan, which also used the word sucked to describes everything sucked physically, which also support for the statements and scan above


Swerzye29038 said:
This is what I was trying to say earlier. There's no evidence that each universe moved an infinite distance during the feat, and there's no reason to believe that they did in the first place
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Not intent to sound rube, but by your logic, i could also say that, there is no reason to not believe they was pulled physically through a distance
 
sanicspood said:


idk if you can read or, because old kai outright states and its SHOWN that all histories were absorbed, and the entire multiverse its self was absorbed as the time patrol had no way out of the timeless void they were in, despite them being able to travel across timelines regularly.
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This reply is improvable, don't go "idk if you can read" at people and it doesn't matter how it's "SHOWN" those histories when I didn't dismiss that they were shown or absorbed. Here they refer to it as history, I said they refer to it as history too, the profile links to that image.

So now the reason why the multiverse was absorbed is because beings that can cross timelines couldn't cross timelines, if that needs to be the reason then it is disingenuous for the albums to claim whatever for no reason and our profile to do the same w/o that reason. The reason doesn't even make sense as it doesn't recognize the possibility of them not being able to do that while inside Mechikabura, or that+being under his power, or because time was swallowed. If character A can leave the universe via Dimensional Travel and character B eats character A and the rest of the universe, it would make perfect sense that character A is now trapped and can't leave being inside character B. If anything it would be quite the feat and something to write about if character A could espace that, "Can leave their universe and go into other universes, even when the universe they're in was inside someone else".
 
Eficiente said:
This reply is improvable, don't go "idk if you can read" at people and it doesn't matter how it's "SHOWN" those histories when I didn't dismiss that they were shown or absorbed. Here they refer to it as history, I said they refer to it as history too, the profile links to that image.
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No offence, but you're completely misinterpeting the context here. The term "history" in DBH can either refer to a timeline or just the entire multiverse flat-out, depending on context. The "histories" that are shown and stated, floating around inside Mechikabura have been outright stated to be separate spacetime-continuums/timelines. Literally 4 of those "histories" shown floating around, are the histories where the Dark Dragon Balls landed to and which were flat-out stated to be separate spacetime-continuums/timelines or spacetimes. The other is the GT timeline where Xeno Trunks and the others even had to fight their alternate timeline/history selves.

Simply put, Mechikabura is shown and stated to be absorbing alternate histories/timelines. Chronoa states that he's swallowing up all of time and the world is going to perish, because he's absorbing entire timelines. In the end, Chronoa confirms that the world did perish and history was no more. It's not that hard to understand. The term "history" in the end is simply referring to all of existence, while the term "histories"in the beginning is referring to the numerous timelines being swallowed up, and "the world" is obviously referring to the multiverse as a whole, as he's already consumed various timelines.
 
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dragonballs power system is super super kid friendly and they got some feats so im fine with "At least Massively FTL+, likely Infinite"

more feats will come with time 🤗🤗🤗
 
Vietthai96 said:
Not intent to sound rube, but by your logic, i could also say that, there is no reason to not believe they was pulled physically through a distance
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I cannot reply with anything new to your points. My previous post covers my reasons for disagreement. All I can say is:

Occam's Razor

and

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
 
AKM sama said:
I cannot reply with anything new to your points. My previous post covers my reasons for disagreement. All I can say is:
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So that mean you can't debunk it, statements is there, claim is there
AKM sama said:
Occam's Razor

and

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
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I made the claim and have evidences, right back to you, you also made Extraordinary claims, where is your extraordinary evidence???

Anyway i'm going to sleep due to midnight in my country
 
1. Things need to be proven for them to be debunked.
2. You don't always have to debunk something to choose between a likely/logical conclusion and an unlikely/illogical conclusion.

Anyway, I guess we agree to disagree in our ideas of how we see the feat or what requirements it needs to fulfill to get what rating.
 
I agree with Viet.

The black hole is shown to pull things physically. That's all you need to know.

Things like space time distortions are never shown and are a pure headcanon.

DBH actually makes a difference between things like DS's feat which involves space time distortions, and Mechikabura's feat where things are pulled physically.

Saying the universes were pulled in a different matter from the Time Nest's IS the extraordinary claim just like assuming space time distortions were involved is a huge headcanon and is contradicted within the verse.
 
Dagoth_OwO said:
No offence, but you're completely misinterpeting the context here. The term "history" in DBH can either refer to a timeline or just the entire multiverse flat-out, depending on context. The "histories" that are shown and stated, floating around inside Mechikabura have been outright stated to be separate spacetime-continuums/timelines. Literally 4 of those "histories" shown floating around, are the histories where the Dark Dragon Balls landed to and which were flat-out stated to be separate spacetime-continuums/timelines or spacetimes. The other is the GT timeline where Xeno Trunks and the others even had to fight their alternate timeline/history selves.

Simply put, Mechikabura is shown and stated to be absorbing alternate histories/timelines. Chronoa states that he's swallowing up all of time and the world is going to perish, because he's absorbing entire timelines. In the end, Chronoa confirms that the world did perish and history was no more. It's not that hard to understand. The term "history" in the end is simply referring to all of existence, while the term "histories"in the beginning is referring to the numerous timelines being swallowed up, and "the world" is obviously referring to the multiverse as a whole, as he's already consumed various timelines.
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Good, this new reason is more solid. No need for a "No offence", the AP of the profile doesn't show this and so no one has any reason to take it into consideration. The profile needs to properly state the reasons and evidence for this as a priority, I'll evaluate the Infinite speed based on that later.
 
I cant reply on the infinite speed thread cuz its a staff one so imma do it here ig.

DonTalkDt, said that scaling a character based of their attacks is a big no by him unless the fiction gets into those things, but what about dragon ball and similar verses?

Dragon Ball Has Multiple times showed/stated ppl to be faster than their own attacks, and I m sure its not the only verse out there that does.
 
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Arthex said:
I cant reply on the infinite speed thread cuz its a staff one so imma do it here ig.

DonTalkDt, said that scaling a character based of their attacks is a big no by him unless the fiction gets into those things, but what about dragon ball and similar verses?
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Like DT stated, no scaling allowed unless fiction shows things like that, for example: where the character can actually demonstrably show that they can react to/dodge/outpace/outmaneuver their own attacks, or if they can fight against characters that can react to/dodge/outpace/outmaneuver said attacks.

Most of the time they just don't scale to their own attacks because of outliers and inconsistencies in speed levels, but that's it's own thing, the attack itself is perfectly fine to be scaled to a speed value.

Arthex said:
Dragon Ball Has Multiple times showed/stated ppl to be faster than their own attacks, and I m sure its not the only verse out there that does.
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The Black Hole pull is a weird one, since speed alone will not save you here, you also need tremendous amounts of LS to overpower its pull and usually LS from escaping a Black Hole is borderline unquantifiable due to the very nature of black holes.
 
KLOL506 said:
Like DT stated, no scaling allowed unless fiction shows things like that, for example: where the character can actually demonstrably show that they can react to/dodge/outpace/outmaneuver their own attacks, or if they can fight against characters that can react to/dodge/outpace/outmaneuver said attacks.

Most of the time they just don't scale to their own attacks because of outliers and inconsistencies in speed levels, but that's it's own thing, the attack itself is perfectly fine to be scaled to a speed value.


The Black Hole pull is a weird one, since speed alone will not save you here, you also need tremendous amounts of LS to overpower its pull and usually LS from escaping a Black Hole is borderline unquantifiable due to the very nature of black holes.
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i m not talking about the blackhole here, ki attacks that can destroy universes such as the ones in dbs, what about them? Offcourse not implying that db universes are infinite, just take it as a what-if here.
 
Arthex said:
i m not talking about the blackhole here, ki attacks that can destroy universes such as the ones in dbs, what about them? Offcourse not implying that db universes are infinite, just take it as a what-if here.
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Those are fine (Omni-directional expansion and all, having a travel component and having more than one individual react to it), but those are not the topic of this discussion here.
 
KLOL506 said:
The Black Hole pull is a weird one, since speed alone will not save you here, you also need tremendous amounts of LS to overpower its pull and usually LS from escaping a Black Hole is borderline unquantifiable due to the very nature of black holes.
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Nah, it is not about escaping Black Hole, but reacting to it's pull and objects that was flung into it. Especially Trunks who reacted to himself being flung into......
 
Vietthai96 said:
Nah, it is not about escaping Black Hole, but reacting to it's pull and objects that was flung into it. Especially Trunks who reacted to himself being flung into......
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Hmmmmm, like AKM said, if there is proof that the universes were an infinite distance away when the succ happened, I wouldn't have any problems to greenlight the scaling.
 
KLOL506 said:
Hmmmmm, like AKM said, if there is proof that the universes were an infinite distance away when the succ happened, I wouldn't have any problems to greenlight the scaling.
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Scan and statements already there, clearly stated everything was sucked into and visual show objects was pulled in physically, which mean the process are all the same with things that infinitely far away, as it said the Black Hole sucked everything. Now it is AKM turn to prove it wrong, not because he said so or using something like Orcam Razor, etc.....as i already backed up my claim with scan and statement
 
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AKM sama said:
I cannot reply with anything new to your points. My previous post covers my reasons for disagreement. All I can say is:

Occam's Razor

and

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
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Occam's razor doesn't really support your argument here.. occam's razor goes with the interpretation with the least amount of assumptions, which in this case would be vietthai's interpretation, with him not assuming anything and only taking into account what is directly stated.

From my understanding he said history (which is infinite) is being sucked into this black hole, and it got sucked/destroyed within a finite amount of time, then it was done infinitely fast because thats the the speed formula, distance over time. And we have direct scans and threads for history being infinite, thats not an assumption. There are direct statements of history being sucked in, thats not assumed either. We know distance is being covered, thats implied in the scan, and we know that there is some sort of time frame, so assuming this is happening at some sort of speed is not an assumption either. That makes a grand total of 0 assumptions. Saying "this isn't what this is, it could be X" and then not presenting evidence when he asks for justification of that interpretation is an assumption, and occam's razor would determine yours is the weaker interpretation.

For Sagan's standard, what qualifies as extraordinary is completely up for interpretation. He could just as easily say that his evidence is as extraordinary as his claim. The problem with using sagan's standard is that extraordinary is a completely subjective term that is not even given a proper criteria within the actual page dedicated to it.
Not the wikipedia page.
There are no concrete parameters as to what constitutes "extraordinary claims", which raises the issue of whether the standard is subjective. According to Tressoldi this problem is less apparent in clinical medicine and psychology where statistical results can establish the strength of evidence.[2]

Some would argue that evidence cannot be extraordinary. The definition of evidence, points to the available body of facts or information. Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary scrutiny.
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.
Not on effectiviology's page where they literally give no criteria and say its a spectrum.
When it comes to extraordinary claims, it’s generally preferable to view ‘extraordinariness’ as a spectrum, rather than as a binary status.
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.

Then again I also skimmed through the thread so my understanding could be bad.
 
AKM is very busy IRL and has limited time available.
 
@AKM sama

We would appreciate your continued help here.
 
Confluctor saying those are "flimsy" reasonings without explaining why is not an argument tho.

Pretty sure Planck also agreed to an "At Least MFTL+, possibly/Likely Infinite" rating
 
Pain_to12 said:
People are allowed to disagree without saying why if the reasons they disagree have already been stated prior

And well I also agree the arguments for the infinite speed is weird and weak
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Yes, no one say people can't simply agree or disagree, everyone have different beliefs. However that kind of agreement or disagreement is also weak and have no weight on the grand scheme of things
 
Vietthai96 said:
Yes, no one say people can't simply agree or disagree, everyone have different beliefs. However that kind of agreement or disagreement is also weak and have no weight on the grand scheme of things
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This.

Just saying "the argument is flimsy/weak" without any further reasoning is, by itself, a weak argument.
 
what's gonna be next though, akm already presented his points and so did the thread supporters.

db very well has proofs of reacting to their own attacks, so the argument used in the "Infinite speed and range" thread is kinda useless here aswell.
 
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