Even so, They were struggling immensely vs raditz, and then gohan rolls in, and Heavily damages raditz, without using a special move that concentrates ki, or taking advantage of a weakness. He literally just tackled the guy. Also, he’s a child. It’s always impressive when a child does something adults(and piccolo) struggle with.
here's the point i'm making btw, i found someone that might explain it better for you than i did
Aye I could understand that point if the disbelief came only from Goku, but it coming from Piccolo as well if he had already seen Gohan's power in the Dead Zone movie is more farfetched. Either way this remains just a side-point, Dead Zone's main inconsistency still lays with the Gohan memory problems the main cast have in Ep. 2.
scaling chains remain the same only AP values increase assuming this comes to pass Baby saga SS4 Goku would be 1,250,000 times above baseline 3-B
Hello everyone. Before giving your agreements or disagreements concerning this matter, I strongly suggest that you read the discussion I had with Null that occured in this thread since I doubt I can concise all the points made in opposition to Fusion Reborn's canonicity and all my rebuttals/points in favor as extensively as I did in this thread:
I'll do my best to shed light on the most important bits of proof and arguments here, though.
Fusion Reborn's strength comes from feasibility to interlink with the Toeiverse at a first glance, with both Vegeta and Goku being dead and Goku making reference of his fight against Majin Buu we can conclude that it's supposed to take part between the time after Goku's stay on Earth comes to an end, and before the Super Buu fight.
The most obvious link we can make between it and GT comes in the form of Vegeta knowing the Metamoran fusion and suggesting that they use it in GT, with dialogue from Goku suggesting that they have done it before.
An argument that can be made against this is claiming that Vegeta learned of the fusion while he was in hell using this:
But I have rebutted that point in the previous thread here and here:
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Another link that we can make between Fusion Reborn and GT, (and the Toei anime by proxy), is the appearance of Toei exclusive characters in them both. I believe that Fusion Reborn is the only movie to contain these characters and make these links:
(Fusion Reborn)
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(Dragon Ball GT)
We have the South Kai, Froug, Mijorin, and Maraikoh that all make appearances in both of the mediums. Of course, all of the Toei Kais make appearances in both Fusion Reborn and GT as well.
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A point that I've seen been made against Fusion Reborn being canon is the use of the Daizenshuu 7 timeline, which only lists Deadzone and Cooler's Revenge in it which are commonly recognized as canon in this wiki alongside Wrath of the Dragon.
However, I'm here to point out that this timeline does not necessarily apply to GT, not in a limiting sense at least. I debunk this claim more extensively here, but the summary is:
Daizenshuu 7 and therefore it's timeline came out on February 25 1996, while the episodes that link Fusion Reborn to the GT canon, Episode 60 of DBGT "Super Saiyan 4 Fusion" / "Fu--sion!! The Ultimate Super Gogeta" and onwards came out in October 22 1997. It is therefore concluded that the Daizenshuu 7 timeline is ironclad only when it comes to it's respective series which is the Z anime, and is subject to be added upon as necessary when it comes to Dragonball GT.
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Another point I've seen been made against Fusion Reborn's canonicity is the impossibility of Shenron being summoned in that movie in accordance to the timeline, but I would like to point out that that impossibility exists in Dead Zone as well which is canon to the Toeiverse either way. You can also point out that Fusion Reborn mustn't be canon due to character inconsistencies which mainly lay in Gohan, but then I'd like to point out that character inconsistencies exist in Deadzone as well where Bulma, Master Roshi and Krillin all forget the fact that Gohan is Goku's son when the main series starts.
(Deadzone)
(DBZ Anime Episode 2)
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My final and what I believe is most powerful point when it comes to proving that Fusion Reborn is canon to GT, comes from nowhere else than GT's two official guidebooks. GT Perfect Files Vol. 1 & 2
Now, the GT Perfect Files are rare. And I mean reaaaally really rare. So rare that only near a dozen scans exist online while the two guidebooks hold a combined 200 pages. Thankfully for us however, this woman, god bless her soul, has recorded them both fully in the following videos.
I've gone through both of these videos each multiple times, and this is what I have found. Vol. 1 of the Perfect Files spans from the beginning of GT to the end of the Baby Saga, and the images included in it are 90% from GT, with the rest being from the Z anime in small 'Remember Dragonball Z' sections at the bottom side of double pages to give context to characters. What's to be noted here is that throughout these 100 pages, every image used is either from Dragon Ball GT or the Z anime, every image used is canon to GT.
Now, Vol. 2 of the Perfect Files spans from the 17 arc to the end of the series and Hero's Legacy special.
It's similar to the first Volume, unsurprisingly. The overwhelming majority of images are directly from GT, with exceptions that I will all detail:
-An image of Namek Saga Goku and an image of Goku as a child either from a Z flashback or the original Dragon Ball anime at the beginning of the guide
-In the Super 17 section, it uses Z anime images for both Perfect Cell and Frieza
-In the Shadow Dragons section, each individual Shadow Dragon is accompanied by images giving context to the wish that gave birth to them. All of the images presented are from the Z anime.
-The Hero's Legacy Special
Once the Shadow Dragons section and Hero's Legacy section is over, it stops going linearly. We start getting images from both GT and the Z anime consistently and within them funnily enough..
-An image from Cooler's Revenge, which we know to be canon from GT and is in accordance with this wiki.
-An image from the Bardock Special, which we know to be canon from both the Z anime and GT.
And finally, what concerns us most here:
-An image of Fusion Reborn, which we know to be canon from GT.
I'm sure that my point has been made clear here. Everything in these guidebooks is true to GT's original story.
We therefore conclude that the overwhelming proof from both the series itself and it's non-contradictory official guidebooks points to Fusion Reborn being canon to Dragon Ball GT. As a bonus I've managed to find a scan for this page and had my Japanese friend translate it for me, and it further empowers this point.
I'll begin the translation from the top right going down and then moving to the left.
'Fusion, a technique to combine two fighters of the same level into one! The fusion also combines the names of the two involved, and with a dramatic increase in power, his personality often becomes rash and reckless. This is the special technique of the Metamoran people.'
'Gogeta first appeared in the Dragon Ball Z: Fusion Reborn movie, released in the spring of 1993!'
'Explore the secrets of the strongest fusion!'
'This is the form of the fusion between SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Vegeta! Even accounting for all galaxies and all dimensions, this fighter should be the one holding the greatest power! Although the fusion's strength is unparalleled, perhaps as a result of the SSJ4 state's incredible power, the 30-minute fusion time limit has been shortened to 10 minutes. This is his sole weakness.'
'Despite the characteristics of the SSJ4 transformation taking over, the fusion's costume changes into the clothing of the Metamoran people.'
'Kick evil's ass! Super fusion warrior!'
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In agreement: pineappleman, toby020, SSJGeminiJJ, God900, MrHazama, MrKerf, Lynieryz, Greatsage13, Bossbrosish
Neutral: Eseseso, Aachintya91, Godernet, Shadyboi09
In disagreement: Vizer04, SirAlex09
I'm not calling for another seperation of the timelines no, just for Fusion Reborn's addition to the Toeiverse timeline via GT and the evidence i've brought
I understand. My argument against that point however is if we were to apply that logic on movies that have been accepted as canon to GT like Deadzone and Cooler's Revenge, we'd conclude that they wouldn't be canon as well. We use things in GT that link the movie to the canon (Cooler cameo, Sacred Water) to conclude that they are canon to the Toeiverse despite their inconsistencies.
'Fusion, a technique to combine two fighters of the same level into one! The fusion also combines the names of the two involved, and with a dramatic increase in power, his personality often becomes rash and reckless. This is the special technique of the Metamoran people.'
'Gogeta first appeared in the Dragon Ball Z: Fusion Reborn movie, released in the spring of 1993!'
'Explore the secrets of the strongest fusion!'
'This is the form of the fusion between SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Vegeta! Even accounting for all galaxies and all dimensions, this fighter should be the one holding the greatest power! Although the fusion's strength is unparalleled, perhaps as a result of the SSJ4 state's incredible power, the 30-minute fusion time limit has been shortened to 10 minutes. This is his sole weakness.'
'Despite the characteristics of the SSJ4 transformation taking over, the fusion's costume changes into the clothing of the Metamoran people.'
'Kick evil's ass! Super fusion warrior!'
Just a question, my god, Akira toriyama considers all movies and even GT as different dimensions of his manga, could that add to the cosmology of DBS?
"Different Dimension" is typically just another authors way of saying a different continuity altogether. Though there is technically a Toriyama multiverse that considers Dr Slump, DBS, Toei as different timelines in the expansive multiverse and all of them are canon timelines in Dragon Ball Heroes; but I absolutely positively think we should avoid assuming anyone in Super is capable of reaching GT's cosmology and vice versa. I know Arale interacted with GT characters in the Dr Slump manga and Arale in turn appears in the DBS anime, so there is an extended multiverse out there. But excluding heroes, we should avoid assuming the individual "Dimensions" can reach outside their boundaries.
I understand, thank you very much!
That is true, GT author really did seem to overcomplicate things.
I'll take this as an agreement, if you don't mind
You can apply it there’s enough agrees
Can I now be given the permission to edit https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon_Ball_(Toei) ?
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