Dragon Ball GT: Revision concerning the canonicity of Fusion Reborn

[pineappleman]

Hello everyone. Before giving your agreements or disagreements concerning this matter, I strongly suggest that you read the discussion I had with Null that occured in this thread since I doubt I can concise all the points made in opposition to Fusion Reborn's canonicity and all my rebuttals/points in favor as extensively as I did in this thread:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/which-are-the-proofs-of-some-dbz-movies-being-canon-to-the-toeiverse-gt.143333/#post-5357026

I'll do my best to shed light on the most important bits of proof and arguments here, though.

Fusion Reborn's strength comes from feasibility to interlink with the Toeiverse at a first glance, with both Vegeta and Goku being dead and Goku making reference of his fight against Majin Buu we can conclude that it's supposed to take part between the time after Goku's stay on Earth comes to an end, and before the Super Buu fight.
The most obvious link we can make between it and GT comes in the form of Vegeta knowing the Metamoran fusion and suggesting that they use it in GT, with dialogue from Goku suggesting that they have done it before.

An argument that can be made against this is claiming that Vegeta learned of the fusion while he was in hell using this:
But I have rebutted that point in the previous thread here and here:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/which-are-the-proofs-of-some-dbz-movies-being-canon-to-the-toeiverse-gt.143333/post-5353544

https://vsbattles.com/threads/which-are-the-proofs-of-some-dbz-movies-being-canon-to-the-toeiverse-gt.143333/post-5354230

-----------------------------

Another link that we can make between Fusion Reborn and GT, (and the Toei anime by proxy), is the appearance of Toei exclusive characters in them both. I believe that Fusion Reborn is the only movie to contain these characters and make these links:

(Fusion Reborn)
--------------------------------

(Dragon Ball GT)
We have the South Kai, Froug, Mijorin, and Maraikoh that all make appearances in both of the mediums. Of course, all of the Toei Kais make appearances in both Fusion Reborn and GT as well.

-----------------------------

A point that I've seen been made against Fusion Reborn being canon is the use of the Daizenshuu 7 timeline, which only lists Deadzone and Cooler's Revenge in it which are commonly recognized as canon in this wiki alongside Wrath of the Dragon.
However, I'm here to point out that this timeline does not necessarily apply to GT, not in a limiting sense at least. I debunk this claim more extensively here, but the summary is:
Daizenshuu 7 and therefore it's timeline came out on February 25 1996, while the episodes that link Fusion Reborn to the GT canon, Episode 60 of DBGT "Super Saiyan 4 Fusion" / "Fu--sion!! The Ultimate Super Gogeta" and onwards came out in October 22 1997. It is therefore concluded that the Daizenshuu 7 timeline is ironclad only when it comes to it's respective series which is the Z anime, and is subject to be added upon as necessary when it comes to Dragonball GT.

-----------------------------

Another point I've seen been made against Fusion Reborn's canonicity is the impossibility of Shenron being summoned in that movie in accordance to the timeline, but I would like to point out that that impossibility exists in Dead Zone as well which is canon to the Toeiverse either way. You can also point out that Fusion Reborn mustn't be canon due to character inconsistencies which mainly lay in Gohan, but then I'd like to point out that character inconsistencies exist in Deadzone as well where Bulma, Master Roshi and Krillin all forget the fact that Gohan is Goku's son when the main series starts.

(Deadzone)

(DBZ Anime Episode 2)

-----------------------------

My final and what I believe is most powerful point when it comes to proving that Fusion Reborn is canon to GT, comes from nowhere else than GT's two official guidebooks. GT Perfect Files Vol. 1 & 2
Now, the GT Perfect Files are rare. And I mean reaaaally really rare. So rare that only near a dozen scans exist online while the two guidebooks hold a combined 200 pages. Thankfully for us however, this woman, god bless her soul, has recorded them both fully in the following videos.




I've gone through both of these videos each multiple times, and this is what I have found. Vol. 1 of the Perfect Files spans from the beginning of GT to the end of the Baby Saga, and the images included in it are 90% from GT, with the rest being from the Z anime in small 'Remember Dragonball Z' sections at the bottom side of double pages to give context to characters. What's to be noted here is that throughout these 100 pages, every image used is either from Dragon Ball GT or the Z anime, every image used is canon to GT.

Now, Vol. 2 of the Perfect Files spans from the 17 arc to the end of the series and Hero's Legacy special.
It's similar to the first Volume, unsurprisingly. The overwhelming majority of images are directly from GT, with exceptions that I will all detail:
-An image of Namek Saga Goku and an image of Goku as a child either from a Z flashback or the original Dragon Ball anime at the beginning of the guide
-In the Super 17 section, it uses Z anime images for both Perfect Cell and Frieza
-In the Shadow Dragons section, each individual Shadow Dragon is accompanied by images giving context to the wish that gave birth to them. All of the images presented are from the Z anime.
-The Hero's Legacy Special
Once the Shadow Dragons section and Hero's Legacy section is over, it stops going linearly. We start getting images from both GT and the Z anime consistently and within them funnily enough..

-An image from Cooler's Revenge, which we know to be canon from GT and is in accordance with this wiki.

-An image from the Bardock Special, which we know to be canon from both the Z anime and GT.

And finally, what concerns us most here:

-An image of Fusion Reborn, which we know to be canon from GT.

I'm sure that my point has been made clear here. Everything in these guidebooks is true to GT's original story.
We therefore conclude that the overwhelming proof from both the series itself and it's non-contradictory official guidebooks points to Fusion Reborn being canon to Dragon Ball GT. As a bonus I've managed to find a scan for this page and had my Japanese friend translate it for me, and it further empowers this point.
I'll begin the translation from the top right going down and then moving to the left.

'Fusion, a technique to combine two fighters of the same level into one! The fusion also combines the names of the two involved, and with a dramatic increase in power, his personality often becomes rash and reckless. This is the special technique of the Metamoran people.'
'Gogeta first appeared in the Dragon Ball Z: Fusion Reborn movie, released in the spring of 1993!'
'Explore the secrets of the strongest fusion!'
'This is the form of the fusion between SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Vegeta! Even accounting for all galaxies and all dimensions, this fighter should be the one holding the greatest power! Although the fusion's strength is unparalleled, perhaps as a result of the SSJ4 state's incredible power, the 30-minute fusion time limit has been shortened to 10 minutes. This is his sole weakness.'
'Despite the characteristics of the SSJ4 transformation taking over, the fusion's costume changes into the clothing of the Metamoran people.'
'Kick evil's ass! Super fusion warrior!'

-----------------------------

In agreement: pineappleman, toby020, SSJGeminiJJ, God900, MrHazama, MrKerf, Lynieryz, Greatsage13, Bossbrosish, Anime_Facts, DarkDragonMedeus, Hop_Hoppington, Elizhaa
Neutral: Eseseso, Aachintya91, Godernet, Shadyboi09
In disagreement: Vizer04, SirAlex09

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Hello everyone. Before giving your agreements or disagreements concerning this matter, I strongly suggest that you read the discussion I had with Null that occured in this thread since I doubt I can concise all the points made in opposition to Fusion Reborn's canonicity and all my rebuttals/points in favor as extensively as I did in this thread:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/which-are-the-proofs-of-some-dbz-movies-being-canon-to-the-toeiverse-gt.143333/#post-5357026

I'll do my best to shed light on the most important bits of proof and arguments here, though.

Fusion Reborn's strength comes from feasibility to interlink with the Toeiverse at a first glance, with both Vegeta and Goku being dead and Goku making reference of his fight against Majin Buu we can conclude that it's supposed to take part between the time after Goku's stay on Earth comes to an end, and before the Super Buu fight.
The most obvious link we can make between it and GT comes in the form of Vegeta knowing the Metamoran fusion and suggesting that they use it in GT, with dialogue from Goku suggesting that they have done it before.

An argument that can be made against this is claiming that Vegeta learned of the fusion while he was in hell using this:
But I have rebutted that point in the previous thread here and here:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/which-are-the-proofs-of-some-dbz-movies-being-canon-to-the-toeiverse-gt.143333/post-5353544

https://vsbattles.com/threads/which-are-the-proofs-of-some-dbz-movies-being-canon-to-the-toeiverse-gt.143333/post-5354230

-----------------------------

Another link that we can make between Fusion Reborn and GT, (and the Toei anime by proxy), is the appearance of Toei exclusive characters in them both. I believe that Fusion Reborn is the only movie to contain these characters and make these links:

(Fusion Reborn)
--------------------------------

(Dragon Ball GT)
We have the South Kai, Froug, Mijorin, and Maraikoh that all make appearances in both of the mediums. Of course, all of the Toei Kais make appearances in both Fusion Reborn and GT as well.

-----------------------------

A point that I've seen been made against Fusion Reborn being canon is the use of the Daizenshuu 7 timeline, which only lists Deadzone and Cooler's Revenge in it which are commonly recognized as canon in this wiki alongside Wrath of the Dragon.
However, I'm here to point out that this timeline does not necessarily apply to GT, not in a limiting sense at least. I debunk this claim more extensively here, but the summary is:
Daizenshuu 7 and therefore it's timeline came out on February 25 1996, while the episodes that link Fusion Reborn to the GT canon, Episode 60 of DBGT "Super Saiyan 4 Fusion" / "Fu--sion!! The Ultimate Super Gogeta" and onwards came out in October 22 1997. It is therefore concluded that the Daizenshuu 7 timeline is ironclad only when it comes to it's respective series which is the Z anime, and is subject to be added upon as necessary when it comes to Dragonball GT.

-----------------------------

Another point I've seen been made against Fusion Reborn's canonicity is the impossibility of Shenron being summoned in that movie in accordance to the timeline, but I would like to point out that that impossibility exists in Dead Zone as well which is canon to the Toeiverse either way. You can also point out that Fusion Reborn mustn't be canon due to character inconsistencies which mainly lay in Gohan, but then I'd like to point out that character inconsistencies exist in Deadzone as well where Bulma, Master Roshi and Krillin all forget the fact that Gohan is Goku's son when the main series starts.

(Deadzone)

(DBZ Anime Episode 2)

-----------------------------

My final and what I believe is most powerful point when it comes to proving that Fusion Reborn is canon to GT, comes from nowhere else than GT's two official guidebooks. GT Perfect Files Vol. 1 & 2
Now, the GT Perfect Files are rare. And I mean reaaaally really rare. So rare that only near a dozen scans exist online while the two guidebooks hold a combined 200 pages. Thankfully for us however, this woman, god bless her soul, has recorded them both fully in the following videos.




I've gone through both of these videos each multiple times, and this is what I have found. Vol. 1 of the Perfect Files spans from the beginning of GT to the end of the Baby Saga, and the images included in it are 90% from GT, with the rest being from the Z anime in small 'Remember Dragonball Z' sections at the bottom side of double pages to give context to characters. What's to be noted here is that throughout these 100 pages, every image used is either from Dragon Ball GT or the Z anime, every image used is canon to GT.

Now, Vol. 2 of the Perfect Files spans from the 17 arc to the end of the series and Hero's Legacy special.
It's similar to the first Volume, unsurprisingly. The overwhelming majority of images are directly from GT, with exceptions that I will all detail:
-An image of Namek Saga Goku and an image of Goku as a child either from a Z flashback or the original Dragon Ball anime at the beginning of the guide
-In the Super 17 section, it uses Z anime images for both Perfect Cell and Frieza
-In the Shadow Dragons section, each individual Shadow Dragon is accompanied by images giving context to the wish that gave birth to them. All of the images presented are from the Z anime.
-The Hero's Legacy Special
Once the Shadow Dragons section and Hero's Legacy section is over, it stops going linearly. We start getting images from both GT and the Z anime consistently and within them funnily enough..

-An image from Cooler's Revenge, which we know to be canon according to this wiki.

-An image from the Bardock Special, which we know to be canon from both the Z anime and GT.

And finally, what concerns us most here:

-An image of Fusion Reborn, which we know to be canon from GT.

I'm sure that my point has been made clear here. Everything in these guidebooks is true to GT's original story.
We therefore conclude that the overwhelming proof from both the series itself and it's non-contradictory official guidebooks points to Fusion Reborn being canon to Dragon Ball GT. As a bonus I've managed to find a scan for this page and had my Japanese friend translate it for me, and it further empowers this point.
I'll begin the translation from the top right going down and then moving to the left.

'Fusion, a technique to combine two fighters of the same level into one! The fusion also combines the names of the two involved, and with a dramatic increase in power, his personality often becomes rash and reckless. This is the special technique of the Metamoran people.'
'Gogeta first appeared in the Dragon Ball Z: Fusion Reborn movie, released in the spring of 1993!'
'Explore the secrets of the strongest fusion!'
'This is the form of the fusion between SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Vegeta! Even accounting for all galaxies and all dimensions, this fighter should be the one holding the greatest power! Although the fusion's strength is unparalleled, perhaps as a result of the SSJ4 state's incredible power, the 30-minute fusion time limit has been shortened to 10 minutes. This is his sole weakness.'
'Despite the characteristics of the SSJ4 transformation taking over, the fusion's costume changes into the clothing of the Metamoran people.'
'Kick evil's ass! Super fusion warrior!'

I absolutely agree with everything

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Agree. Honestly it's been outright said many times officially that all the Movies are apart of the Z Anime, why is it even a discussion nowadays? Because zomg some insignificant plotholes in Dragon Ball of all series?

 

[Eseseso]

Leaning towards agree.

Also, RIP for the time I wasted helping make scaling chains for GT Goku to replace the fusion reborn feat.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Leaning towards agree.

Also, RIP for the time I wasted helping make scaling chains for GT Goku to replace the fusion reborn feat.

with that i believe that GT will take a downgrade, i remember that the evil dragons were able to fuse hell with the living plane, there are quotes in the anime, wouldn't that scale the dragons to low 2-C?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

it's been outright said many times officially that all the Movies are apart of the Z Anime

Scans?

 

[pineappleman]

Scans?

I'm guessing that he's going off Daizenshuu 6, but even that guide labels movies as either consistent with the series or "movie-only stories". Either way I'm not currently making the argument that all movies are canon to GT, so I'd rather the thread not derail into that topic

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Fair.

 

[Vizer04]

Neutral for now, leaning to disagree

 

[SirAlex09]

Neutral for now, leaning to disagree

same

 

[MrHazama]

I always thought the Z movies were non-canon no matter how you try to think about it, but if this is valid, I can lead towards agree

 

[God900]

Time to revive Zamasu's failed attempt to upgrade GT to 2-C...

I was gonna do the thread myself anyways, I agree.

 

[Aachintya31]

Neutral for now, leaning to disagree

same.

 

[pineappleman]

Neutral for now, leaning to disagree

same

same.

Can you share why?

 

[God900]

Can you share why?

Don't forget to count my vote on "agreement " aswell

 

[Nullflowerblush]

But I have rebutted that point in the previous thread here and here:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/which-are-the-proofs-of-some-dbz-movies-being-canon-to-the-toeiverse-gt.143333/post-5353544

https://vsbattles.com/threads/which-are-the-proofs-of-some-dbz-movies-being-canon-to-the-toeiverse-gt.143333/post-5354230

Wasn't really a rebuttal. Like, again, did Vegeta witness the Fusion Dance from the Other World as a spectator, or did he learn the Fusion Dance from Goku firsthand in Hell? Hint: the former is explicitly stated.

Another link that we can make between Fusion Reborn and GT, (and the Toei anime by proxy), is the appearance of Toei exclusive characters in them both.

Yes, Z characters appear in GT, its official sequel, and Fusion Reborn, a movie based on its story.

A point that I've seen been made against Fusion Reborn being canon is the use of the Daizenshuu 7 timeline, which only lists Deadzone and Cooler's Revenge in it which are commonly recognized as canon in this wiki alongside Wrath of the Dragon.

The point was not that Dead Zone and Cooler's Revenge were likelier to fit in-continuity with the TV anime than Fusion Reborn exclusively because they were included in the "Chronological Table of the DB World". The point was that Dead Zone and Cooler's Revenge were already very lax in regards to their place in the canon and could reasonably fit in-continuity, which is further supplemented by their inclusion in the "Chronological Table", whereas Fusion Reborn has not been awarded such luxuries, on top of being wrong.

Another point I've seen been made against Fusion Reborn's canonicity is the impossibility of Shenron being summoned in that movie in accordance to the timeline, but I would like to point out that that impossibility exists in Dead Zone as well which is canon to the Toeiverse either way. You can also point out that Fusion Reborn mustn't be canon due to character inconsistencies which mainly lay in Gohan, but then I'd like to point out that character inconsistencies exist in Deadzone as well where Bulma, Master Roshi and Krillin all forget the fact that Gohan is Goku's son when the main series starts. (DBZ Anime Episode 2)

Dead Zone and Cooler's Revenge can be written into the continuity of the TV anime in broad strokes. Yes, Krillin, Bulma, and Roshi all suddenly forgetting Gohan exists is a discrepancy, but, evidently, not a very egregious discrepancy, as the movie was written into continuity.

Fusion Reborn, on the other hand, presents a series of events that completely disregard and outright destroy the continuity of the story the film is based on. Super Buu has yet to be born, but Gotenks has perfected his fusion and become a Super Saiyan and mastered the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack, and Gohan is healthy and well on Earth, battling crime as the Great Saiyaman, and Shenron is summoned, and the date is shown to be the 16th of May, which is an entire nine days after the triannual World Martial Arts Tournament. Everything that takes place on Earth in the movie has to be completely handwaved away in order for the movie to fit in-continuity.

My final and what I believe is most powerful point when it comes to proving that Fusion Reborn is canon to GT, comes from nowhere else than GT's two official guidebooks. GT Perfect Files Vol. 1 & 2

eh.

 

[Eseseso]

Actually, I'm switching to neutral.

 

[Aachintya31]

Can you share why?

Wasn't really a rebuttal. Like, again, did Vegeta witness the Fusion Dance from the Other World as a spectator, or did he learn the Fusion Dance from Goku firsthand in Hell? Hint: the former is explicitly stated.

Yes, Z characters appear in GT, its official sequel, and Fusion Reborn, a movie based on its story.

The point was not that Dead Zone and Cooler's Revenge were likelier to fit in-continuity with the TV anime than Fusion Reborn exclusively because they were included in the "Chronological Table of the DB World". The point was that Dead Zone and Cooler's Revenge were already very lax in regards to their place in the canon and could reasonably fit in-continuity, which is further supplemented by their inclusion in the "Chronological Table", whereas Fusion Reborn has not been awarded such luxuries, on top of being wrong.

Dead Zone and Cooler's Revenge can be written into the continuity of the TV anime in broad strokes. Yes, Krillin, Bulma, and Roshi all suddenly forgetting Gohan exists is a discrepancy, but, evidently, not a very egregious discrepancy, as the movie was written into continuity.

Fusion Reborn, on the other hand, presents a series of events that completely disregard and outright destroy the continuity of the story the film is based on. Super Buu has yet to be born, but Gotenks has perfected his fusion and become a Super Saiyan and mastered the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack, and Gohan is healthy and well on Earth, battling crime as the Great Saiyaman, and Shenron is summoned, and the date is shown to be the 16th of May, which is an entire nine days after the triannual World Martial Arts Tournament. Everything that takes place on Earth in the movie has to be completely handwaved away in order for the movie to fit in-continuity.

eh.

FRA ^^^
He added more points than what i was about to send.

 

[pineappleman]

Wasn't really a rebuttal. Like, again, did Vegeta witness the Fusion Dance from the Other World as a spectator, or did he learn the Fusion Dance from Goku firsthand in Hell? Hint: the former is explicitly stated.

Did Krillin, Bulma, and Master Roshi learn of Gohan being Goku's son in Deadzone? Or did they learn it from Goku in the series' second episode? Hint: the former is explicitly stated.

Fusion Reborn, on the other hand, presents a series of events that completely disregard and outright destroy the continuity of the story the film is based on. Super Buu has yet to be born, but Gotenks has perfected his fusion and become a Super Saiyan and mastered the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack, and Gohan is healthy and well on Earth, battling crime as the Great Saiyaman, and Shenron is summoned, and the date is shown to be the 16th of May, which is an entire nine days after the triannual World Martial Arts Tournament. Everything that takes place on Earth in the movie has to be completely handwaved away in order for the movie to fit in-continuity.

Dead Zone, on the other hand, presents a series of events that completely disregard and outright destroy the continuity of the story the film is based on. Raditz has yet to arrive to Earth, but Gohan's potential and unordinary strength is already revealed to Piccolo and Goku. And in Cooler's Revenge, Gohan is healthy and somehow still has a tail, and in Dead Zone Shenron is summoned even though Gohan's Dragon Ball at the start of the series is not set to stone. Everything that takes place on this movie has to be completely handwaved away in order for the movie to fit in-continuity.

This was my point. These rules you're so strict on having Fusion Reborn follow are not ironclad, seeing as it's predecessor in Deadzone has already broken them and deemed them not necessary in order to be established in canon. Deadzone has been written into the anime all the way past the Frieza saga, had it not been there wouldn't have even been a discussion when it came to ditching it as non-canon material due to it's inconsistencies before being written into the Z-anime.

This same logic is naturally applied to GT, Fusion Reborn is naturally thrown aside as non-canon until it's connections to it are established in the Shadow Dragons arc.

which is further supplemented by their inclusion in the "Chronological Table", whereas Fusion Reborn has not been awarded such luxuries, on top of being wrong.

This point is therefore not only moot to what I've stated before when it comes to what I've already stated:

Daizenshuu 7 and therefore it's timeline came out on February 25 1996, while the episodes that link Fusion Reborn to the GT canon, Episode 60 of DBGT "Super Saiyan 4 Fusion" / "Fu--sion!! The Ultimate Super Gogeta" and onwards came out in October 22 1997. It is therefore concluded that the Daizenshuu 7 timeline is ironclad only when it comes to it's respective series which is the Z anime, and is subject to be added upon as necessary when it comes to Dragonball GT.

But also due to the fact that Daizenshuu 6 gives Fusion Reborn a time frame and does not list it amongst the movies explicitly set in another dimension or to have explicit inconsistencies that would make it impossible for it have to occured in canon.

Now look at what we have here. The Dainzenshuus are not adding up with one another. Well that matters not, seeing as we have the GT Perfect Files. And as I already told you in the previous thread:

You've used the logic that through an official guidebook for the Z anime, you can find out what's canonical to it. I'm in 100% agreement with you here, but that logic only extends to the Z anime's canon individually. What I mean is if there was a guidebook for the original Dragon Ball anime and later on a DBZ anime guidebook came out that added something like a movie to it's canon timeline, the DBZ guidebook would hold more credence when it comes to it's own canon as supposed to a previous series.

This example is of course, just me leading up to the use of the same logic when it comes to the Z anime and GT.

The GT Perfect Files have the upmost validity when it comes to it's respective series' canon, and dwarfs that of the Daizenshuus' either way. Both Dragon Ball GT and it's official set of guidebooks show us that Fusion Reborn is canon, therefore it is.

 

[Vizer04]

Can you share why?

Wasn't really a rebuttal. Like, again, did Vegeta witness the Fusion Dance from the Other World as a spectator, or did he learn the Fusion Dance from Goku firsthand in Hell? Hint: the former is explicitly stated.

Yes, Z characters appear in GT, its official sequel, and Fusion Reborn, a movie based on its story.

The point was not that Dead Zone and Cooler's Revenge were likelier to fit in-continuity with the TV anime than Fusion Reborn exclusively because they were included in the "Chronological Table of the DB World". The point was that Dead Zone and Cooler's Revenge were already very lax in regards to their place in the canon and could reasonably fit in-continuity, which is further supplemented by their inclusion in the "Chronological Table", whereas Fusion Reborn has not been awarded such luxuries, on top of being wrong.

Dead Zone and Cooler's Revenge can be written into the continuity of the TV anime in broad strokes. Yes, Krillin, Bulma, and Roshi all suddenly forgetting Gohan exists is a discrepancy, but, evidently, not a very egregious discrepancy, as the movie was written into continuity.

Fusion Reborn, on the other hand, presents a series of events that completely disregard and outright destroy the continuity of the story the film is based on. Super Buu has yet to be born, but Gotenks has perfected his fusion and become a Super Saiyan and mastered the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack, and Gohan is healthy and well on Earth, battling crime as the Great Saiyaman, and Shenron is summoned, and the date is shown to be the 16th of May, which is an entire nine days after the triannual World Martial Arts Tournament. Everything that takes place on Earth in the movie has to be completely handwaved away in order for the movie to fit in-continuity.

eh.

Yep, Nullflower pretty much summed up the reasons already. I disagree completely now.

 

[pineappleman]

Yep, Nullflower pretty much summed up the reasons already. I disagree completely now.

Added. Do you have anything to say about my rebuttal on those points you mentioned?

 

[Vizer04]

Also, you haven't counted Null's vote.

 

[pineappleman]

Also, you haven't counted Null's vote.

Once he has explicitly voted I will add it. He has only been arguing against my points, which doesn't explicitly mean he's immediately voting.

 

[Aachintya31]

I suppose you to ask some staff evaluation on their walls. Regular members voting hardly matters.At the end its upto staff to decide what to do.Even if there is 10 regular members agreeing and 2 staff disagreements.The CRT will likely not pass.

 

[pineappleman]

I suppose you to ask some staff evaluation on their walls. Regular members voting hardly matters.At the end its upto staff to decide what to do.Even if there is 10 regular members agreeing and 2 staff disagreements.The CRT will likely not pass.

I see thanks, I'm not too familiar with making CRTs since it's my first one
Do I ask any staff member, or are there specific members that are knowledgeable on the topic?

 

[Aachintya31]

Do I ask any staff member, or are there specific members that are knowledgeable on the topic?

You need to answer the points raised by regular members or staff members. Based on that and your OP ,staff members will evaluate your thread as to whether they agree or disagree. You can ask staff members for evaluation on their message walls.

 

[Godernet]

neutral for now.

 

[SirAlex09]

Can you share why?

It could be a case of half canon ( similar to Tekken/ Blood Vengeance and One Piece movies ) where the events happened but not exactly the way they did in their respective original material. Let's take Fusion reborn as an example: They do reference Goku's fight against Kid Buu (when Goku states that no one has ever pushed him like that ever since Buu.)

But timeline wise the story couldn't have played out the same way due to alot of things not fitting/contradicting each other.

 

[SirAlex09]

Wasn't really a rebuttal. Like, again, did Vegeta witness the Fusion Dance from the Other World as a spectator, or did he learn the Fusion Dance from Goku firsthand in Hell? Hint: the former is explicitly stated.

Yes, Z characters appear in GT, its official sequel, and Fusion Reborn, a movie based on its story.

The point was not that Dead Zone and Cooler's Revenge were likelier to fit in-continuity with the TV anime than Fusion Reborn exclusively because they were included in the "Chronological Table of the DB World". The point was that Dead Zone and Cooler's Revenge were already very lax in regards to their place in the canon and could reasonably fit in-continuity, which is further supplemented by their inclusion in the "Chronological Table", whereas Fusion Reborn has not been awarded such luxuries, on top of being wrong.

Dead Zone and Cooler's Revenge can be written into the continuity of the TV anime in broad strokes. Yes, Krillin, Bulma, and Roshi all suddenly forgetting Gohan exists is a discrepancy, but, evidently, not a very egregious discrepancy, as the movie was written into continuity.

Fusion Reborn, on the other hand, presents a series of events that completely disregard and outright destroy the continuity of the story the film is based on. Super Buu has yet to be born, but Gotenks has perfected his fusion and become a Super Saiyan and mastered the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack, and Gohan is healthy and well on Earth, battling crime as the Great Saiyaman, and Shenron is summoned, and the date is shown to be the 16th of May, which is an entire nine days after the triannual World Martial Arts Tournament. Everything that takes place on Earth in the movie has to be completely handwaved away in order for the movie to fit in-continuity.

eh.

Put me in as disagree. This convinces me

 

[pineappleman]

Put me in as disagree. This convinces me

Put you in. I'd appreciate it if you and Vizer could tell me your thoughts on this though, since you both have disagreed upon Null's arguments and haven't mentioned your views on my attempted rebuttal

Did Krillin, Bulma, and Master Roshi learn of Gohan being Goku's son in Deadzone? Or did they learn it from Goku in the series' second episode? Hint: the former is explicitly stated.

Dead Zone, on the other hand, presents a series of events that completely disregard and outright destroy the continuity of the story the film is based on. Raditz has yet to arrive to Earth, but Gohan's potential and unordinary strength is already revealed to Piccolo and Goku. And in Cooler's Revenge, Gohan is healthy and somehow still has a tail, and in Dead Zone Shenron is summoned even though Gohan's Dragon Ball at the start of the series is not set to stone. Everything that takes place on this movie has to be completely handwaved away in order for the movie to fit in-continuity.

This was my point. These rules you're so strict on having Fusion Reborn follow are not ironclad, seeing as it's predecessor in Deadzone has already broken them and deemed them not necessary in order to be established in canon. Deadzone has been written into the anime all the way past the Frieza saga, had it not been there wouldn't have even been a discussion when it came to ditching it as non-canon material due to it's inconsistencies before being written into the Z-anime.

This same logic is naturally applied to GT, Fusion Reborn is naturally thrown aside as non-canon until it's connections to it are established in the Shadow Dragons arc.

This point is therefore not only moot to what I've stated before when it comes to what I've already stated:

But also due to the fact that Daizenshuu 6 gives Fusion Reborn a time frame and does not list it amongst the movies explicitly set in another dimension or to have explicit inconsistencies that would make it impossible for it have to occured in canon.

Now look at what we have here. The Dainzenshuus are not adding up with one another. Well that matters not, seeing as we have the GT Perfect Files. And as I already told you in the previous thread:

You've used the logic that through an official guidebook for the Z anime, you can find out what's canonical to it. I'm in 100% agreement with you here, but that logic only extends to the Z anime's canon individually. What I mean is if there was a guidebook for the original Dragon Ball anime and later on a DBZ anime guidebook came out that added something like a movie to it's canon timeline, the DBZ guidebook would hold more credence when it comes to it's own canon as supposed to a previous series.

This example is of course, just me leading up to the use of the same logic when it comes to the Z anime and GT.

The GT Perfect Files have the upmost validity when it comes to it's respective series' canon, and dwarfs that of the Daizenshuus' either way. Both Dragon Ball GT and it's official set of guidebooks show us that Fusion Reborn is canon, therefore it is.

Do you two find the points lacking in some aspect?

 

[Vizer04]

Bump

 

[pineappleman]

Don't take this as a dig @Vizer04 , but the fact that you have voted upon Null's first argument before even he has, and when asked for what made you dismiss the counterargument on it which was made before your vote you remaining silent and liking posts that came afterwards is kinda infuriating

 

[Vizer04]

Don't take this as a dig @Vizer04 , but the fact that you have voted upon Null's first argument before even he has, and when asked for what made you dismiss the counterargument on it which was made before your vote you remaining silent and liking posts that came afterwards is kinda infuriating

Sorry, it's just that your counterargument wasn't very convincing.

I'm still waiting for Null's vote

 

[pineappleman]

Sorry, it's just that your counterargument wasn't very convincing.

I'm still waiting for Null's vote

Right, but can you be specific?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Did Krillin, Bulma, and Master Roshi learn of Gohan being Goku's son in Deadzone? Or did they learn it from Goku in the series' second episode? Hint: the former is explicitly stated.

Garlic Jr. Saga.

Dead Zone, on the other hand, presents a series of events that completely disregard and outright destroy the continuity of the story the film is based on. Raditz has yet to arrive to Earth, but Gohan's potential and unordinary strength is already revealed to Piccolo and Goku.

When Gohan demonstrated his power against Raditz, Goku and Piccolo showed very little meaningful reaction, if any, for that matter.

And in Cooler's Revenge, Gohan is healthy and somehow still has a tail

Tails regenerate.

in Dead Zone Shenron is summoned even though Gohan's Dragon Ball at the start of the series is not set to stone.

Dead Zone takes place an unknown amount of time after Dragon Ball and before Z. The movie could take place a year before the events of Z, or six months, or two years, or even four weeks. This is hardly an issue, as opposed to Ms. "This movie takes place before Super Buu".

had it not been there wouldn't have even been a discussion when it came to ditching it as non-canon material due to it's inconsistencies before being written into the Z-anime.

noooot really.

This same logic is naturally applied to GT, Fusion Reborn is naturally thrown aside as non-canon until it's connections to it are established in the Shadow Dragons arc.

There are zero connections. The crux of the argument for its placement in-continuity is Vegeta knowing how to perform the Fusion Dance, which, apparently, means that Fusion Reborn is canon, completely the fact that Vegeta is already established in the TV anime as having known how to perform the Fusion Dance, completely separate from the events of the movie.

But also due to the fact that Daizenshuu 6 gives Fusion Reborn a time frame and does not list it amongst the movies explicitly set in another dimension or to have explicit inconsistencies that would make it impossible for it have to occured in canon.

Same goes for Broly - The Legendary Super Saiyan, Bojack Unbound, Broly - Second Coming, and Wraith of the Dragon.

Both Dragon Ball GT and it's official set of guidebooks show us that Fusion Reborn is canon, therefore it is.

The GT Perfect Files, supplementary material, uses an image of Gogeta from the movie. Therefore, all inconsistencies are forgiven. Gotcha.

 

[pineappleman]

Garlic Jr. Saga.

Literally has nothing to do with that point I made, nice dodge.

When Gohan demonstrated his power against Raditz, Goku and Piccolo showed very little meaningful reaction, if any, for that matter.

I feel like we've been here before. Have we been here before?
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1039604358922383470/1059052669525819402/why-the-****-you-lyin-why-you-lyin.gif

Piccolo audibly moves and gasps from surprise once Gohan unleashes his power. You can either take my word for it, or go see DBZ Episode 5 yourself.

Goku is left at a loss for words from the surprise when he sees his son's power.

Dead Zone takes place an unknown amount of time after Dragon Ball and before Z. The movie could take place a year before the events of Z, or six months, or two years, or even four weeks. This is hardly an issue, as opposed to Ms. "This movie takes place before Super Buu".

How leniant you become when it fits your narrative. It's 'hardly an issue' now when it comes to Deadzone, even though whatever period of time it's set in before the start of Z still renders it contradictory to the main series? Even with this glaring inconsistency it remains canon to the series, which is the point you stubbornly continue to hold while refusing to lend it to Fusion Reborn.noooot really.

noooot really.

Are you legitimately trying to argue that if the Z anime had stopped at the Frieza saga, a movie with such a glaring inconsistency as Deadzone would have been accepted as canon to the Toei timeline? Seriously? Be real with yourself.

There are zero connections. The crux of the argument for its placement in-continuity is Vegeta knowing how to perform the Fusion Dance, which, apparently, means that Fusion Reborn is canon, completely the fact that Vegeta is already established in the TV anime as having known how to perform the Fusion Dance, completely separate from the events of the movie.

Be careful with your wording, and do not twist it to further your narrative. In the TV anime Vegeta is established as having seen the Fusion dance and not having known how to perform it itself. To claim otherwise would be idiotic, it would be akin to claiming to have memorized and mastered a two-person choreographed timing and spacing specific dance sequence from watching professionals do it at the circus.

Same goes for Broly - The Legendary Super Saiyan, Bojack Unbound, Broly - Second Coming, and Wraith of the Dragon.

I'm not here to argue for those movies being canon, so do not attribute that to my argument. Even so, you do realise that this only serves to further weaken your points, right? In admitting that the Daizenshuus might be contradictory, it only further gives credence to the GT Perfect Files, non-contradictory and ironclad over their own series.

The GT Perfect Files, supplementary material, uses an image of Gogeta from the movie. Therefore, all inconsistencies are forgiven. Gotcha.

I'm really trying my hardest to not be disrespectful, but this is easily the most purposefully in bad faith argument that you have made thus far. I can't believe that you'd even try saying this, yet alone believe it.

I've gone through both of these videos each multiple times, and this is what I have found. Vol. 1 of the Perfect Files spans from the beginning of GT to the end of the Baby Saga, and the images included in it are 90% from GT, with the rest being from the Z anime in small 'Remember Dragonball Z' sections at the bottom side of double pages to give context to characters. What's to be noted here is that throughout these 100 pages, every image used is either from Dragon Ball GT or the Z anime, every image used is canon to GT.

Now, Vol. 2 of the Perfect Files spans from the 17 arc to the end of the series and Hero's Legacy special.
It's similar to the first Volume, unsurprisingly. The overwhelming majority of images are directly from GT, with exceptions that I will all detail:
-An image of Namek Saga Goku and an image of Goku as a child either from a Z flashback or the original Dragon Ball anime at the beginning of the guide
-In the Super 17 section, it uses Z anime images for both Perfect Cell and Frieza
-In the Shadow Dragons section, each individual Shadow Dragon is accompanied by images giving context to the wish that gave birth to them. All of the images presented are from the Z anime.
-The Hero's Legacy Special
Once the Shadow Dragons section and Hero's Legacy section is over, it stops going linearly. We start getting images from both GT and the Z anime consistently and within them funnily enough..

-An image from Cooler's Revenge, which we know to be canon from GT and is in accordance with this wiki.

-An image from the Bardock Special, which we know to be canon from both the Z anime and GT.

And finally, what concerns us most here:

-An image of Fusion Reborn, which we know to be canon from GT.

I'm sure that my point has been made clear here. Everything in these guidebooks is true to GT's original story.
We therefore conclude that the overwhelming proof from both the series itself and it's non-contradictory official guidebooks points to Fusion Reborn being canon to Dragon Ball GT. As a bonus I've managed to find a scan for this page and had my Japanese friend translate it for me, and it further empowers this point.
I'll begin the translation from the top right going down and then moving to the left.

'Fusion, a technique to combine two fighters of the same level into one! The fusion also combines the names of the two involved, and with a dramatic increase in power, his personality often becomes rash and reckless. This is the special technique of the Metamoran people.'
'Gogeta first appeared in the Dragon Ball Z: Fusion Reborn movie, released in the spring of 1993!'
'Explore the secrets of the strongest fusion!'
'This is the form of the fusion between SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Vegeta! Even accounting for all galaxies and all dimensions, this fighter should be the one holding the greatest power! Although the fusion's strength is unparalleled, perhaps as a result of the SSJ4 state's incredible power, the 30-minute fusion time limit has been shortened to 10 minutes. This is his sole weakness.'
'Despite the characteristics of the SSJ4 transformation taking over, the fusion's costume changes into the clothing of the Metamoran people.'
'Kick evil's ass! Super fusion warrior!'

Did you willingly just glance over this entire thing, or are you purposefully ignoring it? Are you here to make points to find out whether Fusion Reborn is canon, or are you here to simply argue against it being canon?
You try to undermine GT Perfect Files, the GT official guidebooks published by Sheuisha themselves by calling it a supplementary material, the guidebook that contains important information not revealed in the series, additional plot details, behind the-scenes information on GT, and notes from the series staff.
I provide you with a full translation I went and found a person to translate myself that shows the context of the spread and give you further context showing that the entirety of the Guidebooks only contain material canon to GT, and you purposefully relegate it to 'just a picture of Gogeta' to try and deminish my points?

That's really low, dude.

 

[Vizer04]

Just count Null's vote already lol.

By now it's blatantly obvious what his opinion on the subject is.

 

[Vizer04]

Also, you counted @SirAlex09 vote both on the neutral and disagreement vote-count:

Neutral: Eseseso, SirAlex09, Aachintya91, Godernet
In disagreement: Vizer04, SirAlex09

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Piccolo audibly moves and gasps from surprise once Gohan unleashes his power.

He gasped!
What's next? You going to tell me he breathed?

Goku is left at a loss for words from the surprise when he sees his son's power.

This isn't proof that this is the first time Goku saw Gohan unleash his power like that. This is just proof that Goku was shocked Gohan had enough power to damage Raditz, the impossible, invincible opponent.

How leniant you become when it fits your narrative. It's 'hardly an issue' now when it comes to Deadzone, even though whatever period of time it's set in before the start of Z still renders it contradictory to the main series?

I don't get this one.

Are you legitimately trying to argue that if the Z anime had stopped at the Frieza saga, a movie with such a glaring inconsistency as Deadzone would have been accepted as canon to the Toei timeline? Seriously? Be real with yourself.

Cuz of the Daizenshuu, yea.

In the TV anime Vegeta is established as having seen the Fusion dance and not having known how to perform it itself. To claim otherwise would be idiotic, it would be akin to claiming to have memorized and mastered a two-person choreographed timing and spacing specific dance sequence from watching professionals do it at the circus.

Vegeta clearly understands the mechanics of the Fusion Reborn, as he outright rejected the proposal to use the technique with Goku based upon said mechanics. Hell, Piccolo managed to mirror the Fusion Dance with Goku to a tee upon first viewing.

In admitting that the Daizenshuus might be contradictory

The Daizenshuu not explicitly designating non-canon movies as non-canon is not being contradictory.

You try to undermine GT Perfect Files, the GT official guidebooks published by Sheuisha themselves by calling it a supplementary material

What the **** do you think a guidebook is?

 

[pineappleman]

Count Null's vote already lol

By now it's blatantly obvious what his opinion on the subject is

don't worry i've gotten from this whole thread that you're an extension of Null's shadow following his points even though you can't justify them yourself, but that still doesn't make your words his lol
his vote will be added when he votes

This isn't proof that this is the first time Goku saw Gohan unleash his power like that. This is just proof that Goku was shocked Gohan had enough power to damage Raditz, the impossible, invincible opponent.

Raditz was neither impossible, nor invincible to them. By that point they had both already managed to injure him, and figured out his weakness as a Saiyan. Even if your point was true, which it isn't, the answer would be it's both.

I don't get this one.

Deadzone's vast time period in which it could potentially happen doesn't mitigate it's inconsistencies. It still happens before the start of Z, the Goku and Gohan memory-hole inconsistency still persists, alongside Bulma's implication of not having visited the Kame House for 5 years at the beginning of the series not lining up with Deadzone.

Cuz of the Daizenshuu, yea.

The Daizenshuu not explicitly designating non-canon movies as non-canon is not being contradictory.

You contradict yourself. You preach for the Daizenshuu's timeline as fact only when it comes to Daizenshuu 7, and ignore Daizenshuu 6 as it does not fit your narrative. Your latter point is also moot, since Daizenshuu 6 specifically designates movies inconsistent with the series and 'set in another dimension' from others that are not.

Vegeta clearly understands the mechanics of the Fusion Reborn, as he outright rejected the proposal to use the technique with Goku based upon said mechanics. Hell, Piccolo managed to mirror the Fusion Dance with Goku to a tee upon first viewing.

Vegeta understands the mechanics as far as it contains poses and dances. I'm not gonna repeat my point since it applies here, just read it again in the previous post.
Piccolo did not 'mirror the Fusion Dance upon first viewing', he was taught step by step how to do it alongside the kids and told for what mistakes to watch out for.

He gasped!
What's next? You going to tell me he breathed?


What the **** do you think a guidebook is?

Your bad faith arguments and mockery grow upon each exchange we have in this thread. A couple more messages down the line, will your posts be comprised exclusively of these?

Either way, I really hope that staff members show up sooner than later at this point.