Which are the proofs of some DBZ movies being canon to the Toeiverse/GT?

[Nullflowerblush]

i feel so stupid.

 

[pineappleman]

i feel so stupid.

Woah

 

[pineappleman]

i feel so stupid.

I originally thought that you posted this as something that aids my points, but now that I've given it more thought I see that it can be used both to prove or debunk FR being canon in the GT Toeiverse

Vegeta knowing about Metamoran Fusion, having seen it (and performed it) in Otherworld, reiterating his hatred for the pose and the fact that he already said that he'd never want to merge with Goku that way again

My immediate thought was that it further completed the puzzle, since Vegeta is completely unaware of both fusion and it's required poses in FR


But after further thought, I realised that one could also think that this proves that Fusion Reborn doesn't need to happen, and that Vegeta simply learned of the Metamoran Fusion by observing the kids fuse into Gotenks from Otherworld? It doesn't make sense since Vegeta shouldn't have kept his body and seeing that he commits the fusion perfectly in GT on his first try without prior coaching in this scenario, but I guess this is yet another inconsistency since Vegeta sees Goku turning SSJ3 from Otherworld as well.

Now, I'm gonna merge these two thoughts into further further thoughts.
Even in this possibility, the events occuring in the Otherworld in Future Reborn remain possible. Due to it being placed before Gotenks vs Super Buu, Vegeta not having seen the boys fuse to battle against him explains why he isn't aware of the fusion and it's poses in the movie.

What do you guys think?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

After rewatching Fusion Reborn, I noticed that during the scene where Gohan, still in his Great Saiyaman alter ego despite retiring the role during the World Martial Arts Tournament, battles Frieza, the latter summons a legion of villains from Hell, including enemies from past movies like Tree of Might, Lord Slug, Broly - The Legendary Super Saiyan, and Bojack Unbound.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

It doesn't make sense since Vegeta shouldn't have kept his body and seeing that he commits the fusion perfectly in GT on his first try without prior coaching in this scenario, but I guess this is yet another inconsistency since Vegeta sees Goku turning SSJ3 from Otherworld as well.

According to Elder Kai, King Yemma allowed Vegeta his body after his death, contrary to what Piccolo stated.

Even in this possibility, the events occuring in the Otherworld in Future Reborn remain possible. Due to it being placed before Gotenks vs Super Buu, Vegeta not having seen the boys fuse to battle against him explains why he isn't aware of the fusion and it's poses in the movie.

Vegeta wouldn't've been able to watch Goten and Trunks fuse against Super Buu to begin with, as the three (and Piccolo) began their battle in the Room of Spirit and Time. The only opportunities Vegeta would've had to witness the Fusion Dance from the Other World is when Goku initially taught the technique to the boys and during the time the two had to perfect their fusion on the Lookout, both of which occurred before the events of Fusion Reborn, as Gotenks is a Super Saiyan in the movie.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's topics like this that make me wish Buu's Fury on GBA was the canon interpretation of Toei/GT continuity since Fusion Reborn was Chapter 8 and Broly's Second Coming happened in Chapter 6 with SSJ3 Goku and later Gotenks fighting Fat Buu happened in Chapter 7 with Super Buu fight being Chapter 9.

 

[pineappleman]

It's topics like this that make me wish Buu's Fury on GBA was the canon interpretation of Toei/GT continuity since Fusion Reborn was Chapter 8 and Broly's Second Coming happened in Chapter 6 with SSJ3 Goku and later Gotenks fighting Fat Buu happened in Chapter 7 with Super Buu fight being Chapter 9.

-Accepting this as an inconsistency that you have to live with, just like the DB wish
-Going through the Buu's Fury route, where Fusion Reborn was made to fit in the Buu Saga by completely omitting all the action that happened on Earth and focusing exclusively on what happened in the Otherworld.

The latter take, fixes nearly everything. It still keeps Vegeta knowing the Fusion technique, while at the same time getting rid of the Gohan inconsistency, and also severing any links to previous non-agreeable canon movies in this wiki via cameos. I think that both of these explanations are likely, but I could see why you would probably prefer one over the other.

same

 

[pineappleman]

According to Elder Kai, King Yemma allowed Vegeta his body after his death, contrary to what Piccolo stated.

Aye, he absolutely did. We get this flashback when we see Yemma and Baba observing the Vegito vs Buuhan fight:

Our argument here stems from when exactly did King Yemma grant Vegeta his body back, when did this interaction take place.

Well, it can't have been during the time where Goku was still within the Living World, which includes the time period where he taught the kids how to perform fusion. Why you may ask? For once Goku's stay ends in the Living World and he's sent to Otherworld, he goes over to King Yemma to look for the presumed dead Gohan.

Goku finds Yemma completely unaware of what's going on within Earth and what's causing all the extra deaths, so Yemma is completely unaware of Buu at this point. While telling Goku that he had not judged Gohan, Yemma adds that he had in fact judged Dabura's soul, and speaks nothing of Vegeta. This implies that Vegeta's soul had not even gotten past the waiting line to be judged by Yemma at this point.

So Vegeta couldn't have seen the boys learn fusion, or their fight with Super Buu in the RoSaT...

i feel so stupid.

which unironically makes the best explanation for this scene..

Vegeta knowing about Metamoran Fusion, having seen it (and performed it) in Otherworld, reiterating his hatred for the pose and the fact that he already said that he'd never want to merge with Goku that way again

My immediate thought was that it further completed the puzzle, since Vegeta is completely unaware of both fusion and it's required poses in FR

That he learned of it during the Fusion Reborn movie.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Did Vegeta learn the Fusion Dance after watching its usage in Other World, or did he learn the Fusion Dance from Goku in Hell?
Did Gohan leave with the Supreme Kai to another dimension after Buu's awakening, or did he stay on Earth to fight crime?
Did Gohan retire the Great Saiyaman alter ego after revealing his identity during the tournament, or did he continue as a superhero?
Did Gotenks develop the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack before or during his training in the Room of Spirit and Time?
Was Super Buu born on the day after the World Martial Arts Tournament or a week after?
Did Innocent Buu eradicate two-thirds of the planet's population in less than a day, or did he stretch his destruction to nine days?
Were the Z-Fighters on Namek or were the Z-Fighters on Earth battling Turles?
Did Goku first achieve the Super Saiyan transformation against Frieza, or was he pushed to his limits by Lord Slug?
Did Goku and co. take a trip to New Planet Vegeta during the wait leading up to the Cell Games, or did they rest?
Did Future Trunks return from the future after defeating the Androids to join a martial arts tournament, or did he remain in his timeline?
Did Bojack push Gohan to his peak after the Cell Games, or was his fight with Cell the angriest he has ever been by the time of the Buu Saga?
Was Vegeta's body restored by Janemba, or was his body restored by King Yemma?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Like, how is "The events of Fusion Reborn are canon, and Vegeta learned the Fusion Dance from Goku in that movie" the "best explanation", when this explanation blatantly disregards the fact that Vegeta explicitly states that he picked up on the technique as a spectator, and that Goku was shocked to learn that Vegeta already knew the technique and anticipated his suggestion for power. Didn't Goku teach Vegeta the technique in the first place? "Woah, I didn't know you could use the Pythagorean theorem!" says the geometry teacher to his student.

 

[pineappleman]

Dead Zone

• Presents zero significant inconsistencies
• Confirmed by the Daizenshuu 7's timeline to take place in-continuity (yes, the Daizenshuu 7)
• Is integrated into the story of the TV anime through the Garlic Jr. Saga.
• Garlic Jr. Saga is later referenced in GT

Cooler's Revenge

• Presents zero significant inconsistencies
• Confirmed by the aforementioned Daizenshuu 7 timeline to take place in-continuity
• Is later referenced in GT

Before I make my next post/points, could you send me a scan/some context for this Daizenshuu 7 timeline? The link you sent there isn't working for me, and looking online I can only find info on the 4 alternate timelines created by Trunks

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Before I make my next post/points, could you send me a scan/some context for this Daizenshuu 7 timeline? The link you sent there isn't working for me, and looking online I can only find info on the 4 alternate timelines created by Trunks

Apologies for the wait.

 

[Flashlight237]

I do think there are some finicky things about the movies themselves. Like, for example, I think Cooler's Revenge is supposed to be a "What-if" on if Trunks HADN'T went back in time to kill Frieza and King Cold, which I think would make it feel a bit weird for him to have been incorporated into Dragon Ball GT.

 

[pineappleman]

Apologies for the wait.

All good, i went to go shnooze as soon as i sent that message
I'm guessing that there's no translations available for this material, right? I see the picture for Cooler's Revenge, but I don't see one for the Deadzone. I'm guessing it's referenced in writing, but if that's the case do you know if any other movies/specials are referenced in writing throughout the rest of this timeline from beginning to end?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I'm guessing that there's no translations available for this material, right?

Link.

I'm guessing it's referenced in writing

The related events are translated and included in the Imgur posts.

but if that's the case do you know if any other movies/specials are referenced in writing throughout the rest of this timeline from beginning to end?

Interestingly, Dr. Lychee's death and Hatchiyack being sent into space during the Saiyan-Tuffle War is referenced, but the events of Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans are completely absent. Everything else, barring the aforementioned Garlic Jr. and Cooler events, is true to the original story.

 

[pineappleman]

Link.

the site still doesn't work for me for some reason, so I'll take your word on it's components regarding any other movies/specials

The related events are translated and included in the Imgur posts.

Interestingly, Dr. Lychee's death and Hatchiyack being sent into space during the Saiyan-Tuffle War is referenced, but the events of Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans are completely absent. Everything else, barring the aforementioned Garlic Jr. and Cooler events, is true to the original story.

I see, thank you. So via Daizenshuu 7, we can conclude that only Deadzone and Cooler's Revenge are canon to the Z Toei canon, because as you said 'Everything else, barring the aforementioned Garlic Jr. and Cooler events, is true to the original story.' I'm really glad that you said this, because it leads to my follow up point really well.

You've used the logic that through an official guidebook for the Z anime, you can find out what's canonical to it. I'm in 100% agreement with you here, but that logic only extends to the Z anime's canon individually. What I mean is if there was a guidebook for the original Dragon Ball anime and later on a DBZ anime guidebook came out that added something like a movie to it's canon timeline, the DBZ guidebook would hold more credence when it comes to it's own canon as supposed to a previous series.

This example is of course, just me leading up to the use of the same logic when it comes to the Z anime and GT.

Daizenshuu 7 and therefore it's timeline came out on February 25 1996, while the episode that links Fusion Reborn to the GT canon, Episode 60 of DBGT "Super Saiyan 4 Fusion" / "Fu--sion!! The Ultimate Super Gogeta" came out in October 22 1997. It is therefore concluded that the Daizenshuu 7 timeline is ironclad only when it comes to it's respective series which is the Z anime, and is subject to be added upon as necessary when it comes to Dragonball GT.

The Dragonball GT canon is built upon the foundation laid out by the Z anime, but the Z anime canon can not rely on GT to build itself. I know that this much is true in this very wiki, because Vegito can not be upscaled using this scan here for this specific reason. (for the record i don't agree with this guide either way, i'm just making a point)

Now that we've established why we can add to the Z anime timeline when it comes to GT, we get to the what. What can we add to it? In this case, Fusion Reborn. Why can we add Fusion Reborn to the GT canon?

There's always the point about Vegeta knowing the Fusion Dance and it's intricacies and the implications that the two have fused Metamorically before. You can argue that Vegeta's awareness comes from this sequence:

i feel so stupid.

But I can argue back that not only is it highly unlikely that Vegeta would be able to use the Fusion dance perfectly multiple times and be aware of it's time limit only through seeing Goku teach the kids, I've also established that Vegeta seeing that wouldn't be possible in the first place.

Goku finds Yemma completely unaware of what's going on within Earth and what's causing all the extra deaths, so Yemma is completely unaware of Buu at this point. While telling Goku that he had not judged Gohan, Yemma adds that he had in fact judged Dabura's soul, and speaks nothing of Vegeta. This implies that Vegeta's soul had not even gotten past the waiting line to be judged by Yemma at this point.

So Vegeta couldn't have seen the boys learn fusion, or their fight with Super Buu in the RoSaT...

I'm well aware however that even with this proof this could still be a point of contention when it comes to Fusion Reborn's canonicity to GT. However, don't worry! Because what makes Fusion Reborn being canon to GT an ironclad point, is the same thing that makes Deadzone and Cooler's Revenge being canon to the Z anime an ironclad point. I'm of course talking about official guidebooks: And in GT's case what we have is the two volumes of GT Perfect Files.

Now, the GT Perfect Files are rare. And I mean reaaaally really rare. So rare that only near a dozen scans exist online while the two guidebooks hold a combined 200 pages. Thankfully for us however, this woman, god bless her soul, has recorded them both fully in the following videos.




I've gone through both of these videos each multiple times, and this is what I have found. Vol. 1 of the Perfect Files spans from the beginning of GT to the end of the Baby Saga, and the images included in it are 90% from GT, with the rest being from the Z anime in small 'Remember Dragonball Z' sections at the bottom side of double pages to give context to characters. What's to be noted here is that throughout these 100 pages, every image used is either from Dragon Ball GT or the Z anime, every image used is canon to GT.

Now, Vol. 2 of the Perfect Files spans from the 17 arc to the end of the series and Hero's Legacy special.
It's similar to the first Volume, unsurprisingly. The overwhelming majority of images are directly from GT, with exceptions that I will all detail:
-An image of Namek Saga Goku and an image of Goku as a child either from a Z flashback or the original Dragon Ball anime at the beginning of the guide
-In the Super 17 section, it uses Z anime images for both Perfect Cell and Frieza
-In the Shadow Dragons section, each individual Shadow Dragon is accompanied by images giving context to the wish that gave birth to them. All of the images presented are from the Z anime.
-The Hero's Legacy Special
Once the Shadow Dragons section and Hero's Legacy section is over, it stops going linearly. We start getting images from both GT and the Z anime consistently and within them funnily enough..

-An image from Cooler's Revenge.

-An image from the Bardock Special.

And finally, what concerns us most here:

-Fusion Reborn.

I'm sure that the point I've been building has been made clear now. Both Cooler's Revenge and the Bardock Special have already been known to be canon to GT through it's link to the Z anime. Therefore, if you don't mind me borrowing your words:

Everything else in these guidebooks, barring from Fusion Reborn, is true to GT's original story.
We therefore conclude that the overwhelming proof from both the series itself and it's non-contradictory official guidebooks points to Fusion Reborn being canon to Dragon Ball GT. As a bonus I've had my Japanese friend translate this scan for me, and it further empowers this point.

I'll begin the translation from the top right going down and then moving to the left.

'Fusion, a technique to combine two fighters of the same level into one! The fusion also combines the names of the two involved, and with a dramatic increase in power, his personality often becomes rash and reckless. This is the special technique of the Metamoran people.'
'Gogeta first appeared in the Dragon Ball Z: Fusion Reborn movie, released in the spring of 1993!'
'Explore the secrets of the strongest fusion!'
'This is the form of the fusion between SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Vegeta! Even accounting for all galaxies and all dimensions, this fighter should be the one holding the greatest power! Although the fusion's strength is unparalleled, perhaps as a result of the SSJ4 state's incredible power, the 30-minute fusion time limit has been shortened to 10 minutes. This is his sole weakness.'
'Despite the characteristics of the SSJ4 transformation taking over, the fusion's costume changes into the clothing of the Metamoran people.'
'Kick evil's ass! Super fusion warrior!'

 

[pineappleman]

early enter hold on i'll edit

 

[pineappleman]

There we go, post edited
Say, for the CRT can I just link this thread? I'm so tired I doubt I can word and structure things better than how discussing with Null made me hahahah

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

There we go, post edited
Say, for the CRT can I just link this thread? I'm so tired I doubt I can word and structure things better than how discussing with Null made me hahahah

Yes

 

[Saintdhqhdy]

Goku the best

 

[pineappleman]

CRT has been made!

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-gt-revision-concerning-the-canonicity-of-fusion-reborn.147268/