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Why Cooler and Hildegarn movies are considered canon to the Toeiverse?
Same for the Fusion Reborn to GT?
Same for the Fusion Reborn to GT?
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Which are the proofs of some DBZ movies being canon to the Toeiverse/GT?
- Thread starter Apex_Predator_GX
- Start date
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Cooler makes an appearance in GT while also having no contradictions to the Toei Anime. Hirdugarn also possesses no contradictions and it explains where GT Trunks gets his sword. As for Fusion reborn, I actually recall some people trying to avoid passing that part as canon. We used to consider all 13 DBZ movies as part of Toei canon however.
Eden_Warlock99
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GT Profiles are outdated. They were supposed to be downgraded to 4-A a while ago
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With the exception of those who scale from Omega Shenron, yeah.
Eden_Warlock99
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Also Super 17 Saga due to the Goku shaking Hell feat
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- Thread starter
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Thank you for the explanation but I can recall some inconsistencies with the movie of Cooler, maybe I'm the only one who noticed them.
The movie of Hildegarn doesn't have inconsistencies IIRC, yes.
Yeah, Fusion Reborn doesn't seems to share continuity with GT, I mean both Goku and Vegeta are dead in that movie.
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Fusion Reborn shares continuity with GT due to Vegeta being the one to suggest Metamoran fusion and knowing how to do it, and implying that he's done it with Goku before
Nullflowerblush
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Super Gotenks appears in Fusion Reborn and uses the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack 100 Ghost Finish against The Dictator, but the Daizenshuu 6 places the film before the birth of Super Buu, whereas Gotenks only first used the technique during the battle with Super Buu.
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Your point being?
Nullflowerblush
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every ******* day, man.
The movie cannot fit into Z-GT continuity.
The movie cannot fit into Z-GT continuity.
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By that logic neither Cooler nor Garlic Jr. should be canon to the Z-GT continuity, but they still are because they have to be. The Blackwater Mist, Cooler's cameo and Vegeta knowing Metamoran fusion being canon in GT forces the movies to be canon, and tiny inconsistencies like this one can be overlooked
Besides, does Gotenks even state that he's using SGKA for the first time ever in the fight against Super Buu?
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sidenote, i find it hilarious how you're using Daizenshuu to try to discredit this canonicity when you're vehemently against using it's statements on the infinites sizes that exist in the DB macrocosm lel
Nullflowerblush
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Dead Zone
- Presents zero significant inconsistencies
- Confirmed by the Daizenshuu 7's timeline to take place in-continuity (yes, the Daizenshuu 7)
- Is integrated into the story of the TV anime through the Garlic Jr. Saga.
- Garlic Jr. Saga is later referenced in GT
- Presents zero significant inconsistencies
- Confirmed by the aforementioned Daizenshuu 7 timeline to take place in-continuity
- Is later referenced in GT
- Breaks preestablished continuity (i.e., Gotenks using Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack before battling Super Buu, Gohan fighting on Earth following Majin Buu's awakening, Dragon Balls used despite Shenron being summoned to revive Vegeta's victims, etc.)
Not really. There was plenty of time between the events of the Majin Buu Conflict and the events of the GT Conflicts for Vegeta to have heard of, witnessed, and then learned the Fusion Dance without the existence of the impossible Fusion Reborn existing in-continuity.
Yes.
"lel"?
Vizer04
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The only movies that are canon to the Toeiverse are Dead Zone and Cooler's Revenge.
Fusion Reborn used to be considered too but not anymore due to several inconsistencies. Consequently, most of the Toeiverse was massively downgraded (you can find more information on the original thread)
Fusion Reborn used to be considered too but not anymore due to several inconsistencies. Consequently, most of the Toeiverse was massively downgraded (you can find more information on the original thread)
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There isn’t any. People assert that movies with no established canon now share a connection to GT simply bc it share similarities. There’s no actual proof that’s the case.
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Wrath of the Dragon too
- Possesses no insignificant contradictions to the main story
- Gives context to Trunks using a Sword in GT, as it's the exact same sword design Tapion uses
- Furthermore, it is hypothetically where Future Trunks may have gotten a sword with a similar incident happening in the bleak timeline where the Androids took over.
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Funny that you bring up the Dragon Balls being used in Fusion Reborn to discredit it's canonicity, when the same thing happens in Dead Zone. This makes it so that for Dead Zone to happen with no significant inconsistencies it must be set at least a year before the beginning of Z.
Oh wait, that can't happen. In the beginning of Z the gang is surprised to learn for the first time that Goku's got a son and it's Gohan, when in Dead Zone these are the same characters that helped Goku get Gohan back once he was kidnapped. So there's your significant incosistency.
The most inconsistency-free movie in the GT-Z canon, but it still comes with a little bit of packaging.
Goku is unable to turn into SSJ at will when he was proven to be able to do so against Trunks, and Gohan having a tail.
..you tried using this as a statement for Gotenks never having used SGKA before the Buu fight.
Be real. i don't think i need to get into this one.
Dragon Ball wish inconsistency is shared with Dead Zone, and that finally leaves us with Gohan fighting on Earth. We can move forward here in two ways:
-Accepting this as an inconsistency that you have to live with, just like the DB wish
-Going through the Buu's Fury route, where Fusion Reborn was made to fit in the Buu Saga by completely omitting all the action that happened on Earth and focusing exclusively on what happened in the Otherworld.
The latter take, fixes nearly everything. It still keeps Vegeta knowing the Fusion technique, while at the same time getting rid of the Gohan inconsistency, and also severing any links to previous non-agreeable canon movies in this wiki via cameos. I think that both of these explanations are likely, but I could see why you would probably prefer one over the other.
here's a bonus, a lil sum sumn on the house
Vizer04
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True, i forgot to mention Wrath of the Dragon :3
Nullflowerblush
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Did Krillin know Gohan was his kid?
Nullflowerblush
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Firstly, Gohan being Goku's child is never divulged to Krillin in the movie. In fact, by the time Gohan emerges from rubble to defeat Garlic Jr. Krillin had already become part of the collateral damage and been taken out of the battle—by a head injury, no less.
Secondly, ahem.
This is less of a problem with the continuity of the movie and more of an issue with timing, as the movie was being written long before the chapter in which Goku encountered Trunks was published. This is an out-of-universe issue.
I insist.
In the TV anime, Gohan is taken by the Supreme Kai to the Realm of the Kai after being destroyed by Innocent Buu and is presumed dead by the cast for the remainder of the Majin Buu Conflict until his eventual return. In the movie, Gohan is treated as alive and healthy.
In the TV anime, Gotenks first showcased the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack after Goten and Trunks trained together for two weeks in the Room of Spirit and Time, perfecting their Fusion and brainstorming new techniques to employ as Super Gotenks. In the movie, which takes place before the birth of Super Buu and, thus, before the two even entered the Room of Spirit and Time, Gotenks demonstrates a Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack 100 Ghost Finish, pulling off the technique as effortlessly as the normal version.
In the TV anime, immediately after the cast regroups following the turmoil at the World Martial Arts Tournament, the cast gathers the Dragon Balls and summons Shenron to wish for victims Majin Vegeta murdered in his rampage to be resurrected. A clock in the movie places the events a little over a week after the World Martial Arts Tournament; however, the Dragon Balls are used again.
Glaring and game-breaking inconsistencies. Get real.
this isn't getting real-
Look, Pineappleman, this really isn't the time for jokes.
A design guide?here's a bonus, a lil sum sumn on the house
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Goku met up with Bulma in that movie even though we know they don't see each other after Buu
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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1039604358922383470/1059052669525819402/why-the-****-you-lyin-why-you-lyin.gif
The head injury thing already doesn't work because even Bulma is unaware of Gohan being Goku's child in the show, but guess what? The head injurty scene comes before this scene of Krillin literally stating that Gohan is Goku's child. So yeah, your arguments for Dead Zone become completely false.
And this is my point! Even with these inconsistencies, Dead Zone remains as canon to the Z-GT timeline because it has to be. The events have to have transpired, even if some inconsistencies need to be twisted around to make things more logical. In GT's case it's not GT that has to change to be forcefully connected to the movies, the movies that are referenced are the ones that must be changed in order to fit into GT's canon.
You've done this for Dead Zone, Cooler and WoTD, but refuse to extend that courtesy to Fusion Reborn for some reason. Why, I wonder?
I truly wonder.
The 'proof' you gave me does not have Gotenks specifically stating that this is the first time he's used this technique. Gotenks is literally the biggest showboater in the series, so this statement is not nearly enough to count as a consistency. Instead, you could see it as him stating that he's been training to master the technique because in Fusion Reborn:
He ends up damaging himself with the same technique.
This is not a design guide. This is from GT Perfect Files, and the translated texts talks about how SSJ4 Gogeta is the 'Strongest Super-Warrior'. If GT Perfect Files uses an image from Fusion Reborn in it's guide for SSJ4 Gogeta, then it speaks miles and miles for the movie's canonicity and holds way more weight than your word on it, or mine.
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I didn't respond to this before understandably, but I want it to be known that this is just silly.
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in the anime there is mention of dragons merging the living world with the other world, would that be low 2-C?
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I don't know if this will help
Akira talking about the Dragon Ball movies and he says he sees them as >DIMENSIONS< alternatives to his Manga
where it was taken
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/daizenshuu-6-akira-toriyama-super-interview/
we also have quotes from GT
Akira talking about the Dragon Ball movies and he says he sees them as >DIMENSIONS< alternatives to his Manga
where it was taken
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/daizenshuu-6-akira-toriyama-super-interview/
we also have quotes from GT
Nullflowerblush
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Fair.
Very minimal and loose inconsistencies for Dead Zone and Cooler's Revenge need to be twisted, and Dead Zone is explicitly included in-continuity by the Daizenshuu 7 and properly incorporated into the Z-GT continuity through the Garlic Jr. Saga, hence why the two are given a "courtesy". However, Fusion Reborn presents glaring and significant discrepancies that completely break the continuity—at this time, Gohan has to be training with the Supreme Kai, Shenron cannot be summoned, and Gotenks should not possess these advanced techniques. Not only that, but the only evidence giving validity to Fusion Reborn is the fact that Vegeta knows the Fusion Dance.
However, even still, Vegeta comments on the 30-minute time limit of the Fusion, which Goku never mentioned during Fusion Reborn, confirming that Vegeta acquired unseen knowledge between Z and GT.
Oh, hey, look, Daizenshuu 7 confirms Gotenks acquired the technique after training in the Room of Spirit and Time.
And, also, the only time Gotenks has ever trained was when Goten and Trunks were in the Room of Spirit and Time.
Like, the timeline of events for Gotenks is:
There is literally zero time for Gotenks to have trained before the birth of Super Buu. The two weeks that Goten and Trunks spent in the Room of Spirit and Time is the only time that the two had to perfect their Fusion and workshop their techniques.
The entire Majin Buu Conflict is only two days long, from May 7th to May 9th, which further complicates the validity of Fusion Reborn, as the events take place before the birth of Super Buu but occur on May 16th, which is after everything. How that work?
Yes, Gotenks was perfecting his Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack with the 100 Ghost Finish. That must be why Gotenks used the 10 Ghost Finish against Super Buu during their big, fate-of-the-world-deciding battle.Instead, you could see it as him stating that he's been training to master the technique because in Fusion Reborn:
He ends up damaging himself with the same technique.
Also, Gotenks injuring himself is a result of being foolish and standing in the epicenter of the explosion, not because of a lack of mastery.
A translation'd be nice.
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I never would have thought someone would notice a minor detail like that which could prove the movies were non canon
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Where does it say the buu saga is from may 7th to 9th?
Nullflowerblush
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The World Martial Arts Tournament occurs on May 7th, and the day ends with Goku returning to the Other World.
A day later, Gohan meets the Elder Kai, Goten and Trunks perfect their fusion, and the day ends with Gotenks being beaten by Innocent Buu.
24 hours later, Gohan has his potential drawn out, returns to Earth to battle Super Buu, and the rest of the saga follows.
A day later, Gohan meets the Elder Kai, Goten and Trunks perfect their fusion, and the day ends with Gotenks being beaten by Innocent Buu.
24 hours later, Gohan has his potential drawn out, returns to Earth to battle Super Buu, and the rest of the saga follows.
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s
cans? or source?
Nullflowerblush
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Episode 208 kicks off the World Martial Arts Tournament, which the Daizenshuu confirms is held on May 7th, always. Episode 249 begins the events of the following day. Gohan frees Elder Kai from the Z-Sword in the following episode, 250, and, obviously, the two spend 24 hours performing the ritual.
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The logic for Dead Zone and Cooler's Revenge being canon to GT does not go like this: (use -> as therefore)
The Garlic Jr. saga is canon to the Z anime -> Dead Zone is canon to the Z anime -> Dead Zone is canon to GT
Cooler is canon to the Z anime (I know he isn't I'm just making a point here) -> Cooler's Revenge is canon to the Z anime -> Cooler is canon to GT
The logic goes like this:
The Sacred Water exists and is used in GT the same way it was in the Z anime -> Garlic Jr. saga is canon to GT -> Dead Zone is canon to GT -> we are forced to forego any inconsistencies in the movie
Cooler exists in GT -> Cooler's Revenge is canon to GT -> we are forced to forego any inconsistencies in the movie
The latter way of reasoning is the correct one, which is the one you are using for these two movies. However, you seem to be deliberately refusing to use it when it comes to Fusion Reborn.
Vegeta knows Metamoran fusion in GT despite not knowing it in the Z anime -> Vegeta has fused with Goku in Fusion Reborn -> Fusion Reborn is canon to GT -> we are forced to forego any inconsistencies in the movie
Now, some context clues to further cement this as the truth.
Goku is not surprised from Vegeta's knowledge of the Metamoran fusion, instead he is visibly and later on verbally amused at him being the one to suggest that they fuse. Why, you may ask?
Because these were Vegeta's last words the last time they fused.
Again, I find it funny that you pick and choose when to use Daizenshuu as Word of God specifically only when it's downgrading the verse. Are you sure you want to make the precedent of using Daizenshuu to scale GT?
I don't think you do!
Hah, you're right in a sense. Vegeta did acquire knowledge on this, and it was in Fusion Reborn. Once Janemba is defeated by Gogeta, there's a timeskip before we find both Vegeta and Goku defused. And in GT:
We see that the two fusees remember what they did within the fusion, so Vegeta would remember the time limit. This explains his shock at the Fusion only lasting for 10 minutes as SSJ4 Gogeta.
It really would. Hell, even a full pdf or rip of Perfect Files would be ngreat, but they are extremely rare especially Volume 2 which this page is from. I've got some translations though:
The purple states that Gogeta is the 'Strongest Super Warrior'
The green area goes like this: "This is the fusion of Super Saiyan 4 Goku and Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta. The strongest warrior in the entire Universe, and probably in every dimension!! It's Fusion of unprecedented power that lasts 30 minutes, however, it's only weakness is that lasts 10 minutes due to the Super Saiyan 4 state. His power is perhaps many tens of times stronger than a single Super Saiyan 4."
The best thing about this scan, is the literal <-- from a screencap of Fusion Reborn Gogeta to SSJ4 Gogeta. They literally could not have spelt it out more clearly. I don't have translations for the text on the right, so I'd love if someone was able to translate them.
Here is a video showcasing the entirety of Perfect Files Volume 2. This page in particular appears at 5:42 but I'd recommend for you to glance over it in it's entirety, and pay attention to all uses of stills from things that aren't directly from GT.
They aren't too prevelant. Stills from canonical stills from the Z anime are used on the Shadow Dragons page, giving context to each of the wishes that manifested their respective Dragons.
Of all the movies that appear in this guidebook, there are 3. Coincidentally, they are among the most plausible and clear to be canon to GT.
-The Bardock Special
-Cooler's Revenge
-And none other than yours truly, Fusion Reborn.
I'm sure this has been a long read, because this has been a long ass writing and research sesh on my part as well. But in conclusion:
The Otherworld section in the Fusion Reborn movie has to be canonical to DBGT, and therefore it is. The major inconsistency in the Earth section is Gohan's placement, however it is comparable to the inconsistencies present in Dead Zone.
As a matter of fact, I'd argue that Fusion Reborn would have a leg up on Deadzone in terms of canonicity for GT had it not been for the Sacred Water's existence in GT. Because unlike Deadzone, which strips characters of their knowledge (Bulma, Krillin and Master Roshi not knowing Gohan) Fusion Reborn grants logical knowledge to a character (Vegeta knowing the Metamoran fusion in full detail)
Thanks for the read!
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Nullflowerblush
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I'd call you stupid, but I know that I would end up wanting to say a lot more if I allowed myself that comment.
Nullflowerblush
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What is this.
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We're having a nice discussion! Let's not resort to name calling
Perfect Files Volume 2 scan translated. You can see the untranslated version in the video I presented in my post.
Nullflowerblush
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Aah, apologies.We're having a nice discussion! Let's not resort to name calling
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W goku
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Are you still planning on rebutting my points Null, or should I get to writing a ... Wait, what kind of post do I need to make to bring a change to GT's canon? It's not a CRT, right?
..verse revision thread?
..verse revision thread?
Eden_Warlock99
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Nah, it's a CRT
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Alright, I'll try to get a full translation on this
better structure my points, then make it soon
