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Dragon Ball AP, sad downgrade (Raditz/Saiyan/Namek Saga Tiers only)

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Ednaxel2

Ednaxel2

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This'll only affect Raditz to Namek Saga characters, anyone who is First Form Frieza level and up don't get affected so we don't have to worry about how other threads affecting this.

The method on how we backscale is based on hypothetical power levels with multipliers (Hypothetical Kaio-ken x10 Goku over First Form Frieza, in base he's 10x weaker, he's 10x weaker in the Saiyan Saga, and he's 20x weaker in the Raditz Saga)

This might seem fine at first, until we apply that same logic over to Original Dragon Ball, and then it falls apart, for example:

Goku in the fight against King Piccolo had a Power level of 260, hypothetically he can transform into an Oozaru which boosts him to 2,600, that's over Raditz and Gohan...downscaling from Raditz/Gohan's current value (305.677822299 Yottatons) by 1/10th for Goku's base of it and we get 30.5677822299 Yottatons, that's Large Planet level.

Oh but it gets worse, Goku during the 22nd Budokai has a Battle Power of 180, multiply that by 10x via Oozaru and we get 1800, AGAIN over Raditz and Gohan, meaning base Goku at this time is 30.5677822299 Yottatons.

This is obviously goes against the consistent moon feats these characters are touted to be in many times, (also Oozaru Pilaf Saga Goku has a BP of 100 meanwhile 22nd budokai is 180, take that as you will lmao) therefore BP should only be used to place one character over the other, specifically if that's shown to be the case and not with any hypotheticals.

For the new scaling chain we could also use this calculation:
vsbattles.fandom.com

GBE of an Average Dragon Ball Panet

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Here is the new AP scaling chain with this change and calc:

Raditz Saga​

  • Unweighted Goku is >=1/20th as strong as his Saiyan Saga self, Piccolo is comparable to him - 22.1558317334 Zettatons (Small Planet level)
  • Gohan with a power level of 1,307 is 3x as strong as Goku - 66.4674952002 Zettatons (Planet level)
  • Raditz has a slightly higher power level of 1,500 and can tank an unexpected head-but from this Gohan. Piccolo kills both Raditz and Goku with his Special Beam Cannon - 66.4674952002 Zettatons (Planet level)
    • As an Oozaru, Gohan and Raditz are 10x stronger - 664.674952002 Zettatons (Planet level)

Saiyan Saga​

  • Krillin is superior to Raditz - 66.4674952002 Zettatons (Planet level)
    • Krillin split his Kamehameha into 6, 4 of which killed 4 Raditz-level Saibamen - 398.804971201 Zettatons (Planet level)
  • Gohan is superior - 66.4674952002 Zettatons (Planet level)
    • As an Oozaru he's 10x stronger - 664.674952002 Zettatons (Planet level)
  • Goku is 1/3th the strength of his Kaio-ken x3 self, Nappa is comparable to him albeit is weaker - 443.116634667 Zettatons (Planet level)
    • Kaio-ken Goku - 886.233269334 Zettatons (Planet level)
    • Kaio-ken x3 Goku, overwhelms Vegeta and matched his Galick Gun - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)
    • Kaio-ken x4 Goku overwhelms Vegeta's Galick Gun - 1.77246653867 Yottatons (Planet level)
  • Nappa is comparable to Goku albeit is weaker - 443.116634667 Zettatons (Planet level)
    • As an Oozaru, Nappa is 10x stronger - 4.43116634667 Yottatons (Large Planet level)
  • Vegeta is superior to Kaio-ken x2 Goku, and has a Battle Power of 18,000 which is enough to destroy a planet. Can match Kaio-ken x3 Goku with his Galick Gun, also threatened to destroy Earth with it - 1.329349904 Yottatons (Planet level)
    • As an Oozaru, Vegeta is 10x stronger than his base - 13.29349904 Yottatons (Large Planet level)

Namek Saga​

Rest of the values don't matter for this change
Also I made a small mistake no one noticed in the current AP blog, that being Saiyan Saga Gohan being above Krillin's scatter Kamehameha, whoops.

Only counting staff:
(For downgrading)
Agree: 3

Disagree: 1

Neutral:
(For average planet calc)
Agree: 3

Disagree: 1

Neutral:
 
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I disagree with scaling them to the 2,9x planet size. When Vegeta attack only refers to a earth sized planet and planet level stars at 10,000. As its clear that only Vegeta/Goku are shown as planet busters and shouldn't Kaioken 10x, scale above First Form Frieza?
 
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Veronica said:
shouldn't Kaioken 10x, scale above First Form Frieza?
Click to expand...
Kaio-ken x10 has no implications at all with being above Frieza except via hypothetical Battle Powers which this CRT aims to dismiss as contradictory
Veronica said:
I disagree with scaling them to the 2,9x planet size. When Vegeta attack only refers to a earth sized planet and planet level stars at 10,000. As its clear that only Vegeta/Goku are shown as planet busters
Click to expand...
The 2.9x calc is for the average size of planets in dragon ball and Vegeta scales to it since he has a concrete battle power of 18,000, with 10,000 needed to destroy a planet in dragon ball. Also we already had a thread a not that long ago that tried to get them to baseline 5-B and was declined, lets not start that here
 
567.png


It´s so over Dragon Bros.....

The downgrade looks fine
 
Ednaxel2 said:
Kaio-ken x10 has no implications at all with being above Frieza except via hypothetical Battle Powers which this CRT aims to dismiss as contradictory

The 2.9x calc is for the average size of planets in dragon ball and Vegeta scales to it since he has a concrete battle power of 18,000, with 10,000 needed to destroy a planet in dragon ball. Also we already had a thread a not that long ago that tried to get them to baseline 5-B and was declined, lets not start that here
Click to expand...
Well, I suggested baseline 5-B with a PL of 10,000 and than upscaling Vegeta from that. Which makes more sense, since planet destroying power is never mentioned before until Vegeta. Also Goku would have a PL of 900,000 which makes him superior in every category compared to First Form Frieza. The same way how base Goku would surpass Frieza even without having SSJ. Yet he obviously did with the 50x increase.
 
Veronica said:
Well, I suggested baseline 5-B with a PL of 10,000 and than upscaling Vegeta from that.
Click to expand...
Yea that's part of the reasoning as to why Vegeta is 10,000, that's in the AP scaling chain
Veronica said:
Also Goku would have a PL of 900,000 which makes him superior in every category compared to First Form Frieza
Click to expand...
Again, I already outlined how hypothetical multipliers for Battle Powers can't work:
Ednaxel2 said:
This might seem fine at first, until we apply that same logic over to Original Dragon Ball, and then it falls apart, for example:

Goku in the fight against King Piccolo had a Power level of 260, hypothetically he can transform into an Oozaru which boosts him to 2,600, that's over Raditz and Gohan...downscaling from Raditz/Gohan's current value (305.677822299 Yottatons) by 1/10th for Goku's base of it and we get 30.5677822299 Yottatons, that's Large Planet level.

Oh but it gets worse, Goku during the 22nd Budokai has a Battle Power of 180, multiply that by 10x via Oozaru and we get 1800, AGAIN over Raditz and Gohan, meaning base Goku at this time is 30.5677822299 Yottatons.
Click to expand...
 
Ednaxel2 said:
I thought we got rid of it because of the Ginyu force and stuff, whatever I'll remove it anyways
Click to expand...
Nah.

Zarbon is 23k BP
Monster Zarbon is less than 30k via being weaker than 1st Zenkai Vegeta

29000 BP cannot be "several times" stronger than 23000 BP
Because we know 24000-32000 BP is a 1.25x scale.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
Nah.

Zarbon is 23k BP
Monster Zarbon is less than 30k via being weaker than 1st Zenkai Vegeta

29000 BP cannot be "several times" stronger than 23000 BP
Because we know 24000-32000 BP is a 1.25x scale.
Click to expand...
But do we use BP in this way?

Like, I have 200 BP and then 400, that would be 2x.

But I thought BP was inconsistent and non-linear enough to consider that doubling your BP would equally double your strength.

EDIT:
The OP itself shows that it doesn't make sense for the BP to increase correctly according to the multipliers because of Oozaru and other things.

So what stops Zarnon from becoming several times stronger but not having a numerical BP increase of several times as well? Considering the inconsistency.
 
Apologies if this is offtopic,but would the middle Ginyu's(those being Burter/Jeice/Recoome) be weaker than Transformed Zarbon?
 
I'm pretty sure "several times" alone is not good enough for a multiplier anyways, in contrast to the Super Holy Water where it has a direct multiplier statement, and another where it's said to be a multiplier straight up
 
Ednaxel2 said:
I'm pretty sure "several times" alone is not good enough for a multiplier anyways, in contrast to the Super Holy Water where it has a direct multiplier statement, and another where it's said to be a multiplier straight up
Click to expand...
If it says that it becomes several times stronger, I think there is room for a multiplier. It doesn't have to be an exact number. As far as I remember.

But I don't remember if the wiki considers several times as 2x or 3x.
 
Nah we use several, few, many, etc all the time. Whether or not it's consistent is one thing, so cant say for this exact situation, but a dude getting stronger and going "im several times stronger" we dont discredit just because, hell some verses rely on shit like that.

Though we lowend it, would be the lowest possible amount that befits the word, should probably check the kanji for specifics too given the exact word matters greatly.
Several we generally do as 3x fyi. Like "several hundred" we'd go with 300.
 
For the love of pong about the BP numbers; they're not linear. A 1.2x gap in BP number has more often been not been a far bigger gap than 1.2x among many others. Not to mention some BP ratings come from sources less than reliable.
 
Chariot190 said:
Nah we use several, few, many, etc all the time. Whether or not it's consistent is one thing, so cant say for this exact situation, but a dude getting stronger and going "im several times stronger" we dont discredit just because, hell some verses rely on shit like that.

Though we lowend it, would be the lowest possible amount that befits the word, should probably check the kanji for specifics too given the exact word matters greatly.
Several we generally do as 3x fyi. Like "several hundred" we'd go with 300.
Click to expand...
I think having several being 3x and many being 4x should be added to the multiplier page, since this is the standard for the wiki
 
I made a BOZ-Namek saga AP update, likewise removing the Namek backscaling. I was waiting for my namek calc thread to round up, but since the OP had already mase a thread, would it be okay to paste it here and then we can compare which one oke is more lore accurate or should I wait and make a new jew CRT?
Phsccarvalho said:
But do we use BP in this way?

Like, I have 200 BP and then 400, that would be 2x.

But I thought BP was inconsistent and non-linear enough to consider that doubling your BP would equally double your strength.
Click to expand...
Upscaling, it works that way, because being non linear means that his stats would be most likely above 2x should his power level rise by 2x. As such, linear upscaling is the minimum level they could be, downscaling on the other hand, is the opposite, linear downscaling is the highest assumption, a nonlinear decrease would make a linear downscaling assumption a high end.
 
I agree with the downgrade but for Vegeta's Gallick Gun I think we should use the destruction of the Earth rather than the GBE calc in the OP.
 
Damage3245 said:
I agree with the downgrade but for Vegeta's Gallick Gun I think we should use the destruction of the Earth rather than the GBE calc in the OP.
Click to expand...
He'd scale to the GBE either way for being able to destroy a Planet for having a BP of over 10,000
 
Ednaxel2 said:
He'd scale to the GBE either way for being able to destroy a Planet for having a BP of over 10,000
Click to expand...
Would it be okay to post the one I made and we can compare and see which changes are better or would you prefer to have this one evaluated first?
 
Ednaxel2 said:
sure just put it in a spoiler so then it doesn't take up a portion of the thread
Click to expand...
Beginning of Z​
Unweighted Goku is >=1/20th as strong as his Saiyan Saga self, Piccolo is comparable to him - 53.17399616 Zettatons (Small planet level+)

Gohan with a power level of 1,307 is 3x as strong as Goku - 159.52198848 Zettatons (Planet level)

Raditz has a slightly higher power level of 1,500 and can tank an unexpected head-but from this Gohan. Piccolo kills both Raditz and Goku with his Special Beam Cannon - 159.52198848 Zettatons (Planet level)
  • As an Oozaru, Gohan and Raditz are 10x stronger - 1.5952198848 Yottatons (Planet level)
Saiyan saga​
Krillin's power level was 1.19x that of Raditz and his scattering bullet killed 3 roughly Raditz-level saibamen - 188.2359464064 Zettatons (Planet level)

Gohan is superior to Krillin - 188.2359464064 Zettatons (Planet level)
  • As an Oozaru he's 10x stronger - 1.882359464064 Yottatons (Planet level)
Base Goku scales to 50% of his Kaioken.....1.0634799232 Yottatons (Planet Level)
  • Kaioken gives him a power level of 16,000, 1.6x above a power level of 10,000 with a PL of 16,000 - 2.1269598464 Yottatons (Planet Level+)
  • Kaioken x3 - 3.1904397696 Yottatons (Planet Level+)
  • Kaioken x4 - 4.2539196928 Yottatons (Large Planet level)
Nappa was close to base Goku, but weaker - 1.0634799232 Yottatons (Planet Level)
  • As an oozaru - 10.634799232 Yottatons ( Large Planet Level)
Base Vegeta with a PL of 18,000 - 2.3928298272 Yottatons (Planet level+)
  • Vegeta's Garlick Gun - 3.1904397696 Yottatons (Planet level+) (matched a KKx3 Kamehameha)
  • As an Oozaru, he's equal to Namek Saga Kkx2 pre zenkai Goku's 180,000 PL - 5.034732823018867 Quettatons (Dwarf Star+)

Namek Saga​

First Form Frieza casually destroyed Planet Vegeta, has a Battle Power of 530,000 - 14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)

Base Goku is 1/10th the strength of his Kaio-ken x10 self - 2.517366411509433 Quettatons (Dwarf Star level
  • Kaio-ken Goku is 1/5th the strength of his Kaio-ken x10 self with a power level of 180,000- 5.034732823018867 Quettatons (Dwarf Star+)
  • Kaio-ken x10 Goku has a Battle Power of 900,000 , which is greater than First Form Frieza's - 25.17366411509433 Quettatons (Small Star level)

Frieza Saga​

Post-King Kai training Piccolo is 1/5th weaker than himself before fusing with Nail, which puts his power level at roughly 200,000, above Kaioken X2 Goku - 5.594147581132075 Quettatons (Dwarf Star level)

Second Form Frieza is 2x First Form, Piccolo (after fusing with Nail) and Gohan (mad) are comparable to him - 29.64898218 Quettatons (Small Star level)

Third Form Frieza is superior, final zenkai-boost Vegeta surpassed him - 29.64898218 Quettatons (Small Star level)

Post Zenkai Base Goku surpassed them all with a PL of 3,000,000 - 83.9122137169811 Quettatons (Small Star level)
  • Kaio-ken x10 Goku - 839.122137169811 Quettatons (Large Star level)
  • Kaio-ken x20 Goku - 0.070217740438368992423887855197765458544993 Foe (Large Star level)
  • Super Saiyan Goku is 50x base - 0.175544351095922481059719637994413646362483 Foe (Large Star level)
Final Form Frieza at 50% is superior to a Kaio-ken x20 kamehameha - 0.070217740438368992423887855197765458544993 Foe (Large Star level)
  • Final Form Frieza at 100% - 0.140435480876737984847775710395530917089986 Foe (Large Star level)
Notes :
Krillin's scattering bullet technique did not have a 6x boost, as no such power level change was registered with the scouters (unlike the destructo disk) and after the Saiyans tanked one of such scattered blasts, krillin said it was his full power, so EACH blast was equivalent to the original, just smaller and faster), he also killed 3 not 4 and it wasn't a Kamehameha. Either way, using his actual power level was simpler and removed any inflation

Anyone above 10,000 PL can be scaled, backscaling directly from the 10,000 power level however was avoided and those with PLs below 10,000 only scaled directly from characters at that level with proof, not arbitrarily

Oozaru Vegeta's non linear increase is due to the likewise nonlinear increase in the Namek Saga, as was the case in canon, as such, the backscaling was again avoided and he simply scaled directly to 180k KKx2 Goku
Click to expand...
 
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This looks good but why dont we use the El manga legendario scan saying that a 10,000 power level can destroy a planet? Not only does it seem more appropriate with the calc used but it results in a small upgrade for the characters
 
I don't agree with this since it uses hypothetical multipliers again (Kaio-ken x2 - 16,000, never stated just calculated)
 
Ednaxel2 said:
I don't agree with this since it uses hypothetical multipliers again (Kaio-ken x2 - 16,000, never stated just calculated)
Click to expand...
what's there to disagree with? We know base Goku is already 8,000 so it only makes sense that at Kaioken X2 he is AT LEAST 10,000 (please dont argue with this, realistically its 16,000 everyone knows that) so the calc should really start from there not Vegeta or KKx3 Goku
 
Ryzen7900X said:
This looks good but why dont we use the El manga legendario scan saying that a 10,000 power level can destroy a planet? Not only does it seem more appropriate with the calc used but it results in a small upgrade for the characters
Click to expand...
I did that with mine
Ednaxel2 said:
I don't agree with this since it uses hypothetical multipliers again (Kaio-ken x2 - 16,000, never stated just calculated)
Click to expand...
There is literally nothing hypothetical,
We know Goku's base
We know Kaioken increases linearly
We know how much Kaioken he used


It's like you're given the mass and volume of a structure, and then you find the density and say it's hypothetical

We have KKx2 Goku as 180k as well in the Namek saga from a 90k base

Kaioken is a linear amp
 
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