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Dragon Ball AP Ratings Upgrade

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Damage3245 said:
I was going to make a CRT to change that as it happens but that's a topic for another thread.
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I think Kaioken x2 Goku should be scaled to 5-B anyway off of the EML thing. That'd make Galick Gun vaguely above 1.5x that value, which considering how DB characters destroy planets (KE normally yielding several tiers above the GBE), I don't think is far-fetched at all.
 
Lonkitt said:
All I can say is I’m fine with the new scaling chains ONLY IF we use the manga variant that DOES NOT downscale from Frieza (sorry if the all caps seems intense, there’s just another thread I was in that ignored how I agreed and I don’t want to risk the chance of that happening again)
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Doesn't the new scaling post do it without back scaling from Frieza? Someone posted it a view pages ago.
 
Lonkitt said:
the janky Frieza downscaling
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It's not janky, it has pretty solid evidence for it.
Frieza's AP is just too high for it to work, it's not consistent with the AP shown at Saiyan Saga.

Had Frieza's AP been somewhere reasonable, there wouldn't be any reason to deny it imo
 
Lonkitt said:
All I can say is I’m fine with the new scaling chains ONLY IF we use the manga variant that DOES NOT downscale from Frieza (sorry if the all caps seems intense, there’s just another thread I was in that ignored how I agreed and I don’t want to risk the chance of that happening again)
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I found out something earlier, the 20x statement for Saiyan saga Goku says Battle Power instead of strength, we could just drop that and keep most of them at 5-C while late Saiyan saga could stay at 5-A or wherever it'd be with the new Freeza calc.
 
omegabronic said:
Isn't the oozaru statement also for "battle power"?
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the forms should be treated differently (as they've been consistently shown to linearly increase) unless you want to go with 8-C normal humans because the BP pages also say Goku's battle power of 10 is twice as large as a normal human
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
It's not janky, it has pretty solid evidence for it.
Frieza's AP is just too high for it to work, it's not consistent with the AP shown at Saiyan Saga.
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Its absolutely janky. With how Frieza is portrayed in the manga, nobody in the Saiyan Saga should be downscaling from him, its completely ridiculous. Especially since guys like Vegeta prior to later Namek Zenkais was shitt!ng himself due to the arrival of the Ginyu Force
 
Lonkitt said:
Its absolutely janky. With how Frieza is portrayed in the manga, nobody in the Saiyan Saga should be downscaling from him, its completely ridiculous. Especially since guys like Vegeta prior to later Namek Zenkais was shitt!ng himself due to the arrival of the Ginyu Force
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I don't think it's that far-fetched? Vegeta's Zenkais didn't get him to even 50% of his Saiyan Saga Oozaru's PL and that lad was already x3 weaker than Frieza
 
Adem_Warlock69 said:
I don't think it's that far-fetched? Vegeta's Zenkais didn't get him to even 50% of his Saiyan Saga Oozaru's PL and that lad was already x3 weaker than Frieza
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I don’t think it’s far fetched in the Namek Saga. But in the Saiyan Saga, downscaling from Frieza is a reach IMO
 
CRIMPSUMPSKI2 said:
the forms should be treated differently (as they've been consistently shown to linearly increase) unless you want to go with 8-C normal humans because the BP pages also say Goku's battle power of 10 is twice as large as a normal human
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Who's to say BP and PL are the same thing? Matter of fact I think I've seen a guidebook which directly contradicts that notion but I'd have to look for it to make certain.
 
Lonkitt said:
Its absolutely janky [...] its completely ridiculous.
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That's nothing but Appeal to Absurdism, and you're still in the wrong anyway.

In this scenario First Form Frieza is still 1200 times stronger than Beginning of Z Goku, 30 times stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta, Zarbon and Dodoria, and 6 times stronger than Ginyu. These are absolutely gaps to be terrified of, still, especially in a reality where multiplying your strength by two was still considered impressive.

These are all official statements declaring how much weaker each character is than the next one, it doesn't contradict anything. When First Form Frieza is an appropriate level with his AP, these downscaling statements have no reason to be valid other than your ambiguous complain that "Frieza was portrayed as being impossibly strong", which is still true even if we outline exactly how much stronger he was.
 
DivineAura44 said:
Who's to say BP and PL are the same thing? Matter of fact I think I've seen a guidebook which directly contradicts that notion but I'd have to look for it to make certain.
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Battle Power and PL are the same thing. A battle power of 5 is the same thing as a power level of 5. It’s like saying H20 and Water there’s no difference between the 2.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
That's nothing but Appeal to Absurdism
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It’s not??? I’m not basing my argument in absurdity, I have a genuine reason to believe the downscaling to the Saiyan Saga isn’t the way to go about this. I explained why, and boiling it down to me saying “damn that’s crazy, I don’t agree” is disingenuous

The_Yellow_Topaz said:
In this scenario First Form Frieza is still 1200 times stronger than Beginning of Z Goku, 30 times stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta, Zarbon and Dodoria, and 6 times stronger than Ginyu. These are absolutely gaps to be terrified of, still, especially in a reality where multiplying your strength by two was still considered impressive.

These are all official statements declaring how much weaker each character is than the next one, it doesn't contradict anything. When First Form Frieza is an appropriate level with his AP, these downscaling statements have no reason to be valid other than your ambiguous complain that "Frieza was portrayed as being impossibly strong", which is still true even if we outline exactly how much stronger he was.
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I know we use official multipliers from Kaio-ken and Super Saiyan forms (which I agree with), and correct me if I’m wrong, but I can’t recall us using direct multipliers based on power level differences. The reason being, the power levels in Dragon Ball aren’t exactly linear when comparing the different displays seen between said power levels. Again, correct me on this if I’m wrong, but I’m fairly certain we don’t treat power levels in a linear manner

NOTE: I'm also aware that we use official power levels that are relative for scaling. I know we still take those into account regardless
 
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Lonkitt said:
It’s not??? I’m not basing my argument in absurdity, I have a genuine reason to believe the downscaling to the Saiyan Saga isn’t the way to go about this. I explained why, and boiling it down to me saying “damn that’s crazy, I don’t agree” is disingenuous


I know we use official multipliers from Kaio-ken and Super Saiyan forms (which I agree with), and correct me if I’m wrong, but I can’t recall us using direct multipliers based on power level differences. The reason being, the power levels in Dragon Ball aren’t exactly linear when comparing the different displays seen between said power levels. Again, correct me on this if I’m wrong, but I’m fairly certain we don’t treat power levels in a linear manner

NOTE: I'm also aware that we use official power levels that are relative for scaling. I know we still take those into account regardless
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Well a lot of it does actually come from kaioken. Goku’s Kaioken x10 scales to Frieza and then his base would be 10x weaker. Then, we know Oozaru Vegeta (Saiyan Saga) is equal to Kaioken x2 Namek Saga Goku (because they share the same PL of 180k). Oozaru gives the user a 10x boost so if we downscale from Oozaru it would be 10x weaker in base. Then, Base Vegeta scales to KKx3 Goku who would be 1/3rd of that in base. We originally thought the downscaling from Saiyan Saga to Raditz Saga Goku was stated to be a 20x increase in strength instead of battle power, but Crim found out 20x is only for battle power. So, if we wanna exclude those statements it would only late saiyan saga 5-A, so only Goku and Vegeta would scale.
CRIMPSUMPSKI2 said:
I found out something earlier, the 20x statement for Saiyan saga Goku says Battle Power instead of strength, we could just drop that and keep most of them at 5-C while late Saiyan saga could stay at 5-A or wherever it'd be with the new Freeza calc.
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Most of the scaling comes from downscaling from accepted multipliers as opposed to using BP increase statements that don’t involve forms. So, if people are fine with using kaioken, ssj, and Oozaru multipliers and scaling them down it would only apply to late Saiyan saga characters. Up to the people in the crt though I just wanted to point this out since Crim brought up something relevant to the discussion. Though I think people are against downscaling that much (although the form multipliers are accepted).
DivineAura44 said:
Is there a showing of this?
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The kanji uses (戦闘力) which means Battle Power, also battle power refers to the numerical values of power in the series as well.
latest
 
The guidebook I was referring to was the one that said 1 kili (Demon Realm version of PL) equals 50,000 BP. Considering it's stated 200 kili is what it takes to destroy a planet, I assumed BP, PL, & Kili were 3 different systems. It seems more likely that the person who wrote that part was just confused though.
 
TheGodOfICE777 said:
Well a lot of it does actually come from kaioken. Goku’s Kaioken x10 scales to Frieza and then his base would be 10x weaker. Then, we know Oozaru Vegeta (Saiyan Saga) is equal to Kaioken x2 Namek Saga Goku (because they share the same PL of 180k). Oozaru gives the user a 10x boost so if we downscale from Oozaru it would be 10x weaker in base. Then, Base Vegeta scales to KKx3 Goku who would be 1/3rd of that in base. We originally thought the downscaling from Saiyan Saga to Raditz Saga Goku was stated to be a 20x increase in strength instead of battle power, but Crim found out 20x is only for battle power. So, if we wanna exclude those statements it would only late saiyan saga 5-A, so only Goku and Vegeta would scale.
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A lot of it coming from Kaio-ken's fine to me. Its a blatant multiplier and all. Same with the Oozaru multiplier. Also, can you link me the statements that are being used for Frieza downscaling in the Saiyan Saga?
 
Lonkitt said:
A lot of it coming from Kaio-ken's fine to me. Its a blatant multiplier and all. Same with the Oozaru multiplier. Also, can you link me the statements that are being used for Frieza downscaling in the Saiyan Saga?
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The first downscale comes from Goku implying he’d he able to help against 2nd form Frieza which we attached to his KKx10 state (on his profile)

So then we get his base power level of 90k and kaioken would make that 180k

Vegeta’s Oozaru’s base being 18k and his Oozaru multiplying his bp to 180k

Vegeta would be 1/10th of oozaru in his base

and Kaioken x3 Goku is comparable to Base Vegeta

In base he would be 1/3rd of his KKx3

This scan was the argument for scaling to early Saiyan saga, but as Crim pointed out it’s unusable. So, the downscaling would stop at late Saiyan Saga from Base Goku with PL of 8k.

(Imo it’s kinda weird to scale KKx10 to second form frieza, but that’s how we currently treat it; he would scale above first form frieza either way though. I’m just here to present the information).
 
TheGodOfICE777 said:
The first downscale comes from Goku implying he’d he able to help against 2nd form Frieza which we attached to his KKx10 state (on his profile)

So then we get his base power level of 90k and kaioken would make that 180k

Vegeta’s Oozaru’s base being 18k and his Oozaru multiplying his bp to 180k

Vegeta would be 1/10th of oozaru in his base

and Kaioken x3 Goku is comparable to Base Vegeta

In base he would be 1/3rd of his KKx3

This scan was the argument for scaling to early Saiyan saga, but as Crim pointed out it’s unusable. So, the downscaling would stop at late Saiyan Saga from Base Goku with PL of 8k.

(Imo it’s kinda weird to scale KKx10 to second form frieza, but that’s how we currently treat it; he would scale above first form frieza either way though. I’m just here to present the information).
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Thank you, this is a much easier way to see where the downscaling is coming from
 
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