Dragon Ball AP Ratings Upgrade

[Nullflowerblush]

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

This seems to be a culmination of a long and extensive research. This is honestly amazing, I obviously agree.

 

[DivineAura44]

Cell explicitly released the Solar Kamehameha with "all [its] strength".

I'm not seeing how the linked statement shows he poured all of his power into the Solar Kamehameha.

Gohan not being able to draw out his full strength because of his inherent gentleness and fear of harming others is FIRMLY REAFFIRMED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE ******* FIGHT. WHY DO YOU THINK HE NEEDED ANDROID 16 TO DIE?

Walk me through this logic. He was so gentle that 16 died yet even after he does, Gohan still holds back. You are asking me why he needed to die but it seems like he didn't by your logic.

Is sad about father dying
Nearly gave up three seconds ago

Are you implying people can't share multiple emotions at the same time? Yes it's possible to be sad, depressed, and angry at the same time if you didn't know.
And title chapters like "The Rage of Son Gohan" & "Gohan Explodes", don't seem like coincidences to me.

 

[DivineAura44]

this would in no way affect Gohan's scaling to the Solar System level calc, which is explicitly at the start of the beam struggle.

That isn't implied at all.

amp or not, it wouldn't matter, as the point we're arguing is if SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta scale to Gohan when he killed Cell, which would include said amp.

Who's we? The blog clearly puts Full-Power Gohan at 2x SPC, I'd have no problem with SSJ2 Goku & Vegeta scaling to that level.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I'm not seeing how the linked statement shows he poured all of his power into the Solar Kamehameha.

At the far bottom of the translation—the first of only two sentences; "A Cell with more power than ever shoots a Kamehameha Wave with all [its] strength."

Walk me through this logic.

Gohan is gentle, by nature. Not only is he mild-mannered, but he is lacking in self-confidence, and he wishes to avoid killing—avoid fighting altogether; Gohan refuses to utilize a Super Saiyan's strength for combat, only exploding when at the height of emotional turmoil, which is nearly exclusively in service of bystanders, rarely protecting himself. Despite clearly being able to fight back, due to an inherent pacifistic nature, Gohan only ever attacked Cell twice throughout the entire fight, and only ever when pushed to the limits, refusing to power up. Only through Android 16's dying pleads for Gohan to stop holding back "to fight for good" was Gohan able to power-up, and after transforming, Gohan finally endeavored to return the suffering Cell inflicted upon Earth, but after arrogance resulted in Goku's death, Gohan broke down, even briefly falling out of Super Saiyan 2. Feeling responsible for Goku's death and presented with the opportunity to avenge said death, Gohan mustered up the strength to fight again; after professedly failing, believing the situation hopeless, Gohan completely gave up, "[falling] into complete resignation", losing the motivation to fight back. When Goku's provided encouragement, Gohan offered to "do what I can", once again believing he lacked strength, only self-consciously holding back in apparent service of the planet itself, and only exploding after being informed the potential damage could be undone.

This is NOT a case of "hype talk". Gohan literally refuses to fight, to power up unless he can protect everything.

And title chapters like "The Rage of Son Gohan" & "Gohan Explodes", don't seem like coincidences to me.

Two chapters taking place before "Gohan's Pain", "The Tables Turn", and "Father and Son".

 

[Ednaxel2]

This seems to be a culmination of a long and extensive research. This is honestly amazing, I obviously agree.

Thank you so much!

 

[Ednaxel2]

At the far bottom of the translation—the first of only two sentences; "A Cell with more power than ever shoots a Kamehameha Wave with all [its] strength."

Gohan is gentle, by nature. Not only is he mild-mannered, but he is lacking in self-confidence, and he wishes to avoid killing—avoid fighting altogether; Gohan refuses to utilize a Super Saiyan's strength for combat, only exploding when at the height of emotional turmoil, which is nearly exclusively in service of bystanders, rarely protecting himself. Despite clearly being able to fight back, due to an inherent pacifistic nature, Gohan only ever attacked Cell twice throughout the entire fight, and only ever when pushed to the limits, refusing to power up. Only through Android 16's dying pleads for Gohan to stop holding back "to fight for good" was Gohan able to power-up, and after transforming, Gohan finally endeavored to return the suffering Cell inflicted upon Earth, but after arrogance resulted in Goku's death, Gohan broke down, even briefly falling out of Super Saiyan 2. Feeling responsible for Goku's death and presented with the opportunity to avenge said death, Gohan mustered up the strength to fight again; after professedly failing, believing the situation hopeless, Gohan completely gave up, "[falling] into complete resignation", losing the motivation to fight back. When Goku's provided encouragement, Gohan offered to "do what I can", once again believing he lacked strength, only self-consciously holding back in apparent service of the planet itself, and only exploding after being informed the potential damage could be undone.

This is NOT a case of "hype talk". Gohan literally refuses to fight, to power up unless he can protect everything.

Two chapters taking place before "Gohan's Pain", "The Tables Turn", and "Father and Son".

 

[DivineAura44]

At the far bottom of the translation—the first of only two sentences; "A Cell with more power than ever shoots a Kamehameha Wave with all [its] strength."

Well I'll concede on that. I'll pivot to the other point I should have made earlier. I just assumed I wouldn't have to. As it relates to Cell's Kamehameha vs Gohan's, Gohan didn't match it. Every sense it and thought Cell was gonna win. Piccolo literally says "It's no good, he's getting pushed back." Apparently, the El Manga Legendario says Gohan's Kamehameha > Cell's but I don't see that. This would be an irrelevant argument if Gohan was enraged anyways.

Gohan is gentle, by nature. Not only is he mild-mannered, but he is lacking in self-confidence, and he wishes to avoid killing—avoid fighting altogether; Gohan refuses to utilize a Super Saiyan's strength for combat, only exploding when at the height of emotional turmoil, which is nearly exclusively in service of bystanders, rarely protecting himself. Despite clearly being able to fight back, due to an inherent pacifistic nature, Gohan only ever attacked Cell twice throughout the entire fight, and only ever when pushed to the limits, refusing to power up. Only through Android 16's dying pleads for Gohan to stop holding back "to fight for good" was Gohan able to power-up, and after transforming, Gohan finally endeavored to return the suffering Cell inflicted upon Earth, but after arrogance resulted in Goku's death, Gohan broke down, even briefly falling out of Super Saiyan 2. Feeling responsible for Goku's death and presented with the opportunity to avenge said death, Gohan mustered up the strength to fight again; after professedly failing, believing the situation hopeless, Gohan completely gave up, "[falling] into complete resignation", losing the motivation to fight back. When Goku's provided encouragement, Gohan offered to "do what I can", once again believing he lacked strength, only self-consciously holding back in apparent service of the planet itself, and only exploding after being informed the potential damage could be undone.

This is NOT a case of "hype talk". Gohan literally refuses to fight, to power up unless he can protect everything.

So basically what I said? According to you, 16's final plea got Gohan to power up. You then say he later believes he lacks strength. So in other words, 16 did nothing . There's no reason why Gohan wouldn't already be aware of what the Dragon Balls do, it's not like he hasn't seen them in action. Goku is hype talking Gohan and gets him to realize a power from himself that he wouldn't be able to release otherwise. I don't understand how you don't get that.

Two chapters taking place before "Gohan's Pain", "The Tables Turn", and "Father and Son".

I implore that you read back chapters 405 - 407. No human that is being genuine thinks this Gohan wasn't enraged. The entire chapter is Goku and Cell talking about how strong Gohan would be if he got enraged. I'm serious, that's literally what the chapters are about and the reason why 405 was named the way it was. It was about getting Gohan angry as it would bring Gohan to Perfect Cells level. The title "Gohan's Pain" might show Gohan is sad, but that wouldn't necessarily take away from his anger at all. Gohan was angry and got a rage boost. Despite this, Gohan still never surpassed SPC's power.
SPC > Gohan (Enraged) > PC > Gohan (Normal). The fact that you are arguing otherwise is either coming from a place of being disingenuous or not reading context.

 

[Livinmeme]

Well I'll concede on that. I'll pivot to the other point I should have made earlier. I just assumed I wouldn't have to. As it relates to Cell's Kamehameha vs Gohan's, Gohan didn't match it. Every sense it and thought Cell was gonna win. Piccolo literally says "It's no good, he's getting pushed back." Apparently, the El Manga Legendario says Gohan's Kamehameha > Cell's but I don't see that. This would be an irrelevant argument if Gohan was enraged anyways.


So basically what I said? According to you, 16's final plea got Gohan to power up. You then say he later believes he lacks strength. So in other words, 16 did nothing . There's no reason why Gohan wouldn't already be aware of what the Dragon Balls do, it's not like he hasn't seen them in action. Goku is hype talking Gohan and gets him to realize a power from himself that he wouldn't be able to release otherwise. I don't understand how you don't get that.

I implore that you read back chapters 405 - 407. No human that is being genuine thinks this Gohan wasn't enraged. The entire chapter is Goku and Cell talking about how strong Gohan would be if he got enraged. I'm serious, that's literally what the chapters are about and the reason why 405 was named the way it was. It was about getting Gohan angry as it would bring Gohan to Perfect Cells level. The title "Gohan's Pain might show Gohan is sad, but that wouldn't necessarily take away from his anger at all. Gohan was angry and got a rage boost. Despite this, Gohan still never surpassed SPC's power.
SPC > Gohan (Enraged) > PC > Gohan (Normal). The fact that you are arguing otherwise is either coming from a place of being disingenuous or not reading context.

Wait, would that mean that SPC is stronger than Gohan (enraged), or that gohan (enraged + ****** up) is weaker than normal Gohan, because...Cell directly admits that he got "almost as strong as Gohan"

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I hate writing so much.

 

[Livinmeme]

I hate writing so much.

DB/Z never had very good writting to begin with, but it went to an abyss without an apparent end after the namek saga ended

 

[SlendVeny]

DB/Z never had very good writting to begin with, but it went to an abyss without an apparent end after the namek saga ended

L take

 

[DivineAura44]

DB/Z never had very good writting to begin with, but it went to an abyss without an apparent end after the namek saga ended

No no, I don't think Null means the writing of the series. I think they mean as in typing a lot of words. Good news for him, if he drops another essay on me, I ain't responding, he won the argument .

 

[Nullflowerblush]

if he drops another essay on me, I ain't responding, he won the argument

wait, word?

 

[DivineAura44]

wait, word?

Ong, I don't got it in me to debate that point which barely affects the scaling. You gotta remember Null, this ain't our first go 'round. We've debated whether or not Gohan was enraged in the Cell Saga so much by now, not just for Gohan vs Cell but also the inconsistencies in the SSJ2 multiplier (back when it was 2x, you were making the point that a stomp gap being overturned into a new stomp by a 2x multiplier made no sense. Therefore SSJ2's multiplier shouldn't have been applied. I used to argue that it wasn't just a 2x multiplier because Gohan should have also gotten a rage boost which contributed to Gohan's rise in power).


I'm not ready to keep the tradition alive. If you got any arguments, now is the perfect time cuz you will win that battle.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

According to you, 16's final plea got Gohan to power up. You then say he later believes he lacks strength. So in other words, 16 did nothing .

Android 16's words was the final push Gohan needed to power up.
Losing Goku and being crippled by the revived Cell made Gohan doubt himself again.

Goku is hype talking Gohan and gets him to realize a power from himself that he wouldn't be able to release otherwise.

"Hang on, Gohan!!! Hang on!!! You haven't used all your power yet!!! Let it rip!!!"; "I'm doing my best!!! I... can't do anymore..."; "You're holding back!! Trying not to destroy the planet!!! Let go!!! The Dragon Balls can fix it!!!"

"Hang on! Hang on, Gohan! You ain’t putting out all your power yet! Make your power explode!"; "I’m doing it at full force…! Any more than this is…"; "Somewhere in your mind you’re thinking of the damage to the Earth! Don’t worry about it! We’ll undo the damage with the dragonballs!"

"Cell tried to blow away the entire Earth, but a heartbroken Gohan is encouraged by Goku in the afterlife, and in his Kamehameha struggle with Cell he puts forth his strongest power."

"During the battle with Cell, he won with a Kamehameha that had all his might behind it."

"It looked like Gohan was being pushed back by the Kamehameha that Cell fired, but with Goku's advice he unleashes all his ki in one burst!"

Not touching the rage boost thing because rage boosts are a non-concept; Gohan habitually holds back and his power rises with his emotions, and all Goku did was instill Gohan with the confidence to stop holding back.

 

[Damage3245]

@Nullflowerblush; didn't one of the databooks imply that Goku lent Gohan some energy for that final clash? Or do we just disregard that one statement? Because I don't think it'd necessarily conflict with the Kamehameha having all of Gohan's Ki behind it or his strongest power, if it also had some extra Ki on the side via Goku.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The Daizenshuu 2 said that, but the Daizenshuu 2 said he "puts forth his strongest power" and "unleashes all his ki in one burst", too.

 

[AguilaR202]

I think demoralized/ arm broken / 50% SS2 Gohan matching Cells KHH despite charging for less it is enough proof of him being substantially > SPC in normal conditions, even if he was slowly losing the struggle prior to Gokus intervention he lasted pretty damn long, for reference a beam clash only needs as little as a 30% difference in power for one side to quickly overwhelm taking KKx4 Goku vs Vegetas Garlick Gun beam clash as example.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

One thing though.

• Imperfect Cell after absorbing more people is superior to Piccolo (after he fused with Kami) and Android 17: 978 Quettatons (Large Star level)
• Semi-Perfect Cell adds Android 17's strength to his own: 1.956 Foe (Large Star level)

Uhhh, 978 Quettatons+978 Quettatons is not 1.956 Foe.

978 Quettatons = 4.09195336e+42 Joules
1 Foe =1e+44 Joules

Large Star level has a gap of ~715.59x to get to 22.77 Foe. So actually,

• 544217.644 Quettatons = 22.77 Foe
• Therefore, 23900.6431 Quettatons = 1 Foe
• So, 978 Quettatons+978 Quettatons, which is 1956 Quettatons is = 0.082 Foe

Adding 4.09195336e42 J+4.09195336e42 J is just 8.18390672e42 J. Still very far away from 1e44 J.

1.956e44/8.18390672e42 = 23.9x.

This means the scale overestimates Semi-Perfect Cell's power by a factor of over 20x
The scaling should be fixed

 

[Qawsedf234]

The scaling should be fixed

Should probably be replaced by joule figures rather than using prefixes that few people really get.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Should probably be replaced by joule figures rather than using prefixes that few people really get.

Just using the prefixes the OP used, I'll include joules in my post so everyone's on the same page. Thanks Qawsed

 

[Qawsedf234]

Just using the prefixes the OP used, I'll include joules in my post so everyone's on the same page. Thanks Qawsed

Oh I was talking about the OPs post. Your thing is fine.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Oh I was talking about the OPs post. Your thing is fine.

Oh, oof. My B.
I did include joules anyway

 

[Ednaxel2]

One thing though.

• Imperfect Cell after absorbing more people is superior to Piccolo (after he fused with Kami) and Android 17: 978 Quettatons (Large Star level)
• Semi-Perfect Cell adds Android 17's strength to his own: 1.956 Foe (Large Star level)

Uhhh, 978 Quettatons+978 Quettatons is not 1.956 Foe.

978 Quettatons = 4.09195336e+42 Joules
1 Foe =1e+44 Joules

Large Star level has a gap of ~715.59x to get to 22.77 Foe. So actually,

• 544217.644 Quettatons = 22.77 Foe
• Therefore, 23900.6431 Quettatons = 1 Foe
• So, 978 Quettatons+978 Quettatons, which is 1956 Quettatons is = 0.082 Foe

Adding 4.09195336e42 J+4.09195336e42 J is just 8.18390672e42 J. Still very far away from 1e44 J.

1.956e44/8.18390672e42 = 23.9x.

This means the scale overestimates Semi-Perfect Cell's power by a factor of over 20x
The scaling should be fixed

I would fix it but I feel like I should just wait until other stuff is sorted like the Solar kamehameha, potential changes made to the Buu Saga scaling, and the Planet Vegeta calc

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

I think demoralized/ arm broken / 50% SS2 Gohan matching Cells KHH despite charging for less it is enough proof of him being substantially > SPC in normal conditions, even if he was slowly losing the struggle prior to Gokus intervention he lasted pretty damn long, for reference a beam clash only needs as little as a 30% difference in power for one side to quickly overwhelm taking KKx4 Goku vs Vegetas Garlick Gun beam clash as example.

I mean, it 2ad SPC that brought jos arm and took his power to 50% in the first place, and that was with a casual blast at Vegeta that he tried to actively block

It's weird either way

 

[SlendVeny]

Are we still having issues with the Frieza backscaling? If so, I would like to suggest a Possibly rating.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

We need that 5-A Planet Vegeta calc

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Are we still having issues with the Frieza backscaling? If so, I would like to suggest a Possibly rating.

What? THAT was an issue? It's outright stated to be like that, who has an issue with that?

Don't settle for possibly, people can't just walk over clear-cut statements that leave no doubt because of personal distaste for the ratings. I thought Cell was a problem here, not this

 

[SlendVeny]

What? THAT was an issue? It's outright stated to be like that, who has an issue with that?

Don't settle for possibly, people can't just walk over clear-cut statements that leave no doubt because of personal distaste for the ratings. I thought Cell was a problem here, not this

It was earlier, I don't remember if it was solved. People weren't big fans of Vegeta backscaling off Frieza, and they started strawmanning the Oozaru thing iirc.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

What? THAT was an issue? It's outright stated to be like that, who has an issue with that?

Don't settle for possibly, people can't just walk over clear-cut statements that leave no doubt because of personal distaste for the ratings. I thought Cell was a problem here, not this

Pretty sure it'd be an outlier for Raditz-Saga lads to be 5-A

 

[SlendVeny]

Pretty sure it'd be an outlier for Raditz-Saga lads to be 5-A

And that debunks the Vegeta scaling because?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

And that debunks the Vegeta scaling because?

The Vegeta scaling?

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Pretty sure it'd be an outlier for Raditz-Saga lads to be 5-A

Ah yes, an outlier for the featless characters that scale off far weaker versions of themselves.

Please refer to the definition of outlier, it's not.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Ah yes, an outlier for the featless characters that scale off far weaker versions of themselves.

Please refer to the definition of outlier, it's not.

El Manga Legendario states that you need a PL of 10,000 to destroy a planet and the hype Vegeta gets from the guidebooks due to being able to destroy earth, implies that the prior villains had yet to reach that level yet

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

El Manga Legendario states that you need a PL of 10,000 to destroy a planet and the hype Vegeta gets from the guidebooks due to being able to destroy earth.

These are not outliers, secondary sources, even more so if they're not in their native language, cannot set a precident like an in-universe event. These cannot be classified as outliers.
Unsure how El Manga Legendario takes priority over far more recent guidebooks that had much, much closer involvement with the author, Akira Toriyama, like the Super Exciting Guide, and the Chouzenshuu.

implies that the prior villains had yet to reach that level yet;

These were never the stakes of any of the prior arcs, no villains had any interest in destroying the planet.

Needless to mention, DC /=/ AP, we can have 5-A characters that don't have attacks that can effectively destroy the planet, be it through range or anything else. We literally do already.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

The downscaling comes from Great Ape Vegeta having the same PL as Kaioken x2 Namek Goku, not really anything that came from recent guidebooks
If I recall correctly, this would also upgrade Piccolo Jr to 5-A since he could survive Goku's Super Kamehameha which has a PL of 910

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I just want to point out that Earth is considered a small planet by Dragon Ball standards as stated by King Cold when he and Frieza show up before the Android Saga truly begins.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I just want to point out that Earth is considered a small planet by Dragon Ball standards as stated by King Cold when he and Frieza show up before the Android Saga truly begins.

That just means other planets are bigger than Earth. Doesn't make Earth not 5-B (assuming that's what's being implied)

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

That just means other planets are bigger than Earth. Doesn't make Earth not 5-B (assuming that's what's being implied)

That's not what I was implying, what I was trying to imply is that any character with a power level of 10,000 or above would have far beyond the power needed to actually destroy Earth.