Dragon Ball AP Ratings Upgrade

[CloverDragon03]

I suppose that makes sense, though it's also uncertain what kind of planet is being referred to

 

[Omegabronic]

I suppose that makes sense, though it's also uncertain what kind of planet is being referred to

Isn't that in reference to vegeta's Galic Gun going after the Earth?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Not sure tbh

 

[Nullflowerblush]

you'd think if vegeta could destroy the planet normally he wouldn't need the galick gun but eh

 

[Damage3245]

Reducing it so that the only AP calcs in use for the entirety of Dragon Ball Z are just Frieza's destruction of planet Vegeta and Cell blowing up the Solar System is a bit of a drastic move to me.

Two calcs for an entire series? The powerscaling chain was already pretty long, but this just makes it even longer and with less support.

That this hinges pretty heavily on Power Level scaling is also another reason I'm not really in favor of this change.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Cell's Kamehameha might not be used for scaling

 

[Omegabronic]

you'd think if vegeta could destroy the planet normally he wouldn't need the galick gun but eh

Isn't the galic gun compared to the Kamehameha by vegeta when he does it even?

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Reducing it so that the only AP calcs in use for the entirety of Dragon Ball Z are just Frieza's destruction of planet Vegeta and Cell blowing up the Solar System is a bit of a drastic move to me.

Two calcs for an entire series? The powerscaling chain was already pretty long, but this just makes it even longer and with less support.

That this hinges pretty heavily on Power Level scaling is also another reason I'm not really in favor of this change.

Could you name more relevants feats from Dragon Ball?

It's a REALLY scarce verse in terms of feats in general.

In DB we had early moon busting feats, which made the subsequent casual moon feat irrelevant. The planet busting statement was the next one, then Freeza, then Cell.

We have nothing basically. And what do you mean no support? There's several statements that indicate the gap between characters, these ARE support regardless.

 

[Damage3245]

@The_Yellow_Topaz Minor correction but I didn't say no support, I just said less support.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

@The_Yellow_Topaz Minor correction but I didn't say no support, I just said less support.

Well, this would also be inaccurate.
Before, Raditz only scaled far above moon level, which was supported by a way earlier moon busting feat from a weaker character.
Now he has several statements that describes exactly how much stronger he is.

We could reach an understanding, like the fact Goku is 1/20 of his Saiyan Saga self, and Raditz is 3/20 of that should still be a better alternative than just scaling him above whatever he was before. Even if you discard the backscaling with Freeza, this would only really affect Saiyan Saga.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

That this hinges pretty heavily on Power Level scaling

Jeice, Burter, and Recoome all have equal Power Levels, but Burter is clearly faster than even Ginyu, apparently.
Don't know if this affects anything.

 

[Damage3245]

Looking at the Multipliers page which says this:

However, a good statement alone is not enough to get a high multiplier accepted. The amount of extra evidence one has to provide to get larger multipliers accepted is proportional to the size of the multiplier. For lower multipliers, like things much less than times 100, evidence can take the form of a clear increase in combat strength against priorly equal or superior opponents. For higher multipliers, like times 100 and above, the importance of stronger evidence, such as feats displaying power of a similar magnitude as the value the multiplier points to or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story, and a higher amount of evidence becomes increasingly necessary.

If multiple multipliers are to be stacked, that are used upon each other, the evidence for the end result is equal to the total multiplier applied to the best feat. That means that if, for example, a character has a times 10 multiplier and later on gets another times 50 multiplier, than the evidence necessary to use both multipliers to get a statistic, is like that of a times 500 multiplier, as the best feat would be increased by a factor of 500 in that case.

The scaling chain being proposed here essentially being:

BoZ Goku is 1/20th as strong as Saiyan Saga Goku who is 1/3rd as strong as KKx3 Goku who is 1/10th as strong as Oozaru Vegeta who is 1/5th as strong as as KKx10 Goku who is 9.78 Quttatons

That amounts to backwards scaling a 3000x multiplier. With the only supporting evidence for a Large Planet level (5-A) rating being that the characters are above a Moon level (5-C) calc and Vegeta's most powerful technique at the time was at least Planet level (5-B).

If I had to choose between two different powerscaling options here, I'd rather go with "At least 5-C" for the beginning of Z characters than relying on a 3000x backwards scaled multiplier chain.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

That amounts to backwards scaling a 3000x multiplier

You're adding multipliers together when each of them are smaller and thus less extraordinary. Adding smaller instances to make it seem like it's a big deal is really dishonest imo

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

There's another blog that doesn't use the Frieza backscaling, but keeps the BoZ multipliers, it good

Updated Dragon Ball AP Ratings (Version 2)

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

BoZ Goku is 1/20th as strong as Saiyan Saga Goku who is 1/3rd as strong as KKx3 Goku who is 1/10th as strong as Oozaru Vegeta who is 1/5th as strong as as KKx10 Goku who is 9.78 Quttatons

Maybe we should be revising Freeza's calc instead, since it uses KE to get it's rating. I don't think that's accurate as a lot of the mass has variable speed and is just straight up vaporized/disintegrated with the heat of the explosion--

 

[Damage3245]

Maybe we should be revising Freeza's calc instead, since it uses KE to get it's rating. I don't think that's accurate as a lot of the mass has variable speed and is just straight up vaporized/disintegrated with the heat of the explosion--

There is an open thread for that calc right now.

You're adding multipliers together when each of them are smaller and thus less extraordinary. Adding smaller instances to make it seem like it's a big deal is really dishonest imo

It's not; the section I quoted from the Multipliers page specifically notes stacking multipliers.

 

[DivineAura44]

Jeice, Burter, and Recoome all have equal Power Levels, but Burter is clearly faster than even Ginyu, apparently.
Don't know if this affects anything.

Ki seems to be a multiplication of physicals more often than not. So ki and speed grow at the same rate but if you are physically.faster than someone, they can have more ki and still be slower. The same would apply with other things like durability and strength.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

El Manga Legendario states that you need a PL of 10,000 to destroy a planet and the hype Vegeta gets from the guidebooks due to being able to destroy earth, implies that the prior villains had yet to reach that level yet

Sounds like bogus. Wasn't Roshi's PL in the 100s when he destroyed the moon?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Sounds like bogus. Wasn't Roshi's PL in the 100s when he destroyed the moon?

Never stated in-universe.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Never stated in-universe.

Then was the thing about 10 000 pl to destroy a planet stated in-universe?

 

[SlendVeny]

BoZ Goku is 1/20th as strong as Saiyan Saga Goku who is 1/3rd as strong as KKx3 Goku who is 1/10th as strong as Oozaru Vegeta who is 1/5th as strong as as KKx10 Goku who is 9.78 Quttatons

That amounts to backwards scaling a 3000x multiplier.

KKx3, KKx10, and Oozaru are already accepted, so our un-accepted multiplier number is around 20 or 100.

 

[Omegabronic]

Jeice, Burter, and Recoome all have equal Power Levels, but Burter is clearly faster than even Ginyu, apparently.
Don't know if this affects anything.

wouldn't this affect the whole "stronger = faster" thing a lot of profiles use for speed scaling?

 

[Omegabronic]

Vegeta's most powerful technique at the time was at least Planet level (5-B).

we scale vegeta's normal technique's to that tho

 

[CloverDragon03]

wouldn't this affect the whole "stronger = faster" thing a lot of profiles use for speed scaling?

Uh, no? That means that a boost in Ki means the equivalent of that same boost in AP, durability, and speed. Certain characters having certain AP and speed ratings isn't the same

 

[Omegabronic]

Uh, no? That means that a boost in Ki means the equivalent of that same boost in AP, durability, and speed. Certain characters having certain AP and speed ratings isn't the same

but, by that logic, someone stronger should always be faster since both ap and Speed would be proportional in growth wouldn't it? sorry if i am missunserstanding something here

 

[CloverDragon03]

but, by that logic, someone stronger should always be faster since both ap and Speed would be proportional in growth wouldn't it? sorry if i am missunserstanding something here

Differences in characters come down to more factors compared to a simple Ki boost

 

[StretchSebe]

Here's the updated AP ratings

All reasoning are in the notes of the blog post, the added multipliers are accepted in Toei AP blog too (except for the Original Dragon Ball and Piccolo/Nail one)

If there's anything that needs to be changed (I don't know if Buu's aborbtions adding his power has been accepted yet) I'll just re-edit it

What this changes

22nd Budokai Goku and Piccolo reach higher levels of Moon level with the additional mutlipler, Saiyan Saga characters are Large Planet level to Dwarf Star level due to back scaling from Namek Saga, Frieza Saga reaches Star level+ with the additional multiplier of 2nd form Frieza being 2x 1st form Frieza, and Cell Saga characters reach Solar System level even before Super Perfect Cell

Agree. I'm not sure why Cell Saga antagonists weren't scaled the way they were for awhile there. 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza (supposed to be stronger than the z fighters had they not known and trained for 3 years too, and at least after 19 absorbs energy, above Star level), 16, 17, and 18 even stronger than them, Imperfect Cell even stronger than them (after absorbing... enough), then Semi-Perfect Cell being way stronger than that, then Vegeta and Trunks being way stronger than that, then Perfect Cell being untouchable by them, then Goku being equal and Gohan being stronger, then Perfect Cell again being stronger, then Gohan AGAIN being stronger...

Scaling got nuts in the Andoird/Cell/Cell Games Sagas. Solar System level seems fair by Semi-Perfect at the least.

Also, plenty of calculations (I think? At least values provided) and statements. I agree.

I came in late to this so sorry for not contributing much besides a vote and my two cents

 

[Ednaxel2]

El Manga Legendario states that you need a PL of 10,000 to destroy a planet and the hype Vegeta gets from the guidebooks due to being able to destroy earth, implies that the prior villains had yet to reach that level yet

That's not what I was implying, what I was trying to imply is that any character with a power level of 10,000 or above would have far beyond the power needed to actually destroy Earth.

"Si con una fuerza de combate de 10.000 se puede
destruir un planeta, es inconcebible lo que se puede lograr con un millón"

"If a combat force of 10,000 can
destroy a planet, it is inconceivable what a million can achieve"

It never states that having a power level of 10,000 was essential to destroy a planet, only that someone with a power level of 10,000 is able to do so (which doesn't imply whatsoever that its the limit someone with 10k can do)

There's also the fact that earth is recognized as being a small planet not just a regular one

 

[Nullflowerblush]

There's also the fact that earth is recognized as being a small planet not just a regular one

This means next to nothing. Earth being small does not automatically make the baseline planet 5-A.

 

[StekFence]

There's also the fact that earth is recognized as being a small planet not just a regular one

It’s not like the book is speaking from the standards of a freiza force member tho

 

[Livinmeme]

Could you name more relevants feats from Dragon Ball?

It's a REALLY scarce verse in terms of feats in general.

In DB we had early moon busting feats, which made the subsequent casual moon feat irrelevant. The planet busting statement was the next one, then Freeza, then Cell.

We have nothing basically. And what do you mean no support? There's several statements that indicate the gap between characters, these ARE support regardless.

Dragon ball has FEATS....The problem is that almost all of them are so far bellow the tier the characters get by statements that....Well it doesn't matter

 

[StretchSebe]

Dragon ball has FEATS....The problem is that almost all of them are so far bellow the tier the characters get by statements that....Well it doesn't matter

Ok, I can say one thing: Don't know who originally said it, but I like the quote "There's only so many planets you can destroy."

Universe is big, but after a certain point of power; unless you have a character like Buu just willing to go around blowing up celestial bodies, direct feats are gonna slow down a lot.

Only so many planets you can reasonably destroy (at least, in most stories/plots)

 

[Ednaxel2]

This means next to nothing. Earth being small does not automatically make the baseline planet 5-A.

The point was to defend against the PL 10,000 arguments not support the Large Planet level scaling

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

The downscaling comes from Great Ape Vegeta having the same PL as Kaioken x2 Namek Goku, not really anything that came from recent guidebooks
If I recall correctly, this would also upgrade Piccolo Jr to 5-A since he could survive Goku's Super Kamehameha which has a PL of 910

well, there's the statement saying Goku only grew 10x stronger from gravity training, which keeps getting ignored.

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

Jeice, Burter, and Recoome all have equal Power Levels, but Burter is clearly faster than even Ginyu, apparently.
Don't know if this affects anything.

I think this'd be in reference to flight speed, considering Goku could blitz Burter but Ginyu was somewhat keeping up with Goku. Skill is a factor in flight speed, not just Ki size, which is also implied by Piccolo at the start of the Saiyan saga, so Burter's skill with flight can be >> Ginyus.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

well, there's the statement saying Goku only grew 10x stronger from gravity training, which keeps getting ignored.

From, like, the back of a Viz volume?

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

From, like, the back of a Viz volume?

DB Forever too, it's in your blog

 

[Ednaxel2]

well, there's the statement saying Goku only grew 10x stronger from gravity training, which keeps getting ignored.

He likely got a zenkai boost after his fight with Vegeta before the 10x boost from training

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

He likely got a zenkai boost after his fight with Vegeta before the 10x boost from training

That's something I made up to justify Vegeta being >> him in Kaioken x2. The more I think about it, saying Oozaru Vegeta could be above 180k might also be plausible.

 

[Damage3245]

we scale vegeta's normal technique's to that tho

I was going to make a CRT to change that as it happens but that's a topic for another thread.