Dragon Ball Ability Revisions

[Kepekley23]

Equivalence. Pretty sure "equivalency" is Old English lexicon.

@Amexim

I'm neutral-ish. It's obvious they can use it, but they don't know they can use it. Is it intuitive to have an ability you don't know you can use listed?

 

[Akreious]

"There's no debate. If simply being strong and yelling was the key to vice shout, literally everybody in Super would be breaking dimensional boundaries left and right."

Can you name me one instance of a character putting up some effort into their shout to amp it with Ki in DBS? I frankly recall Goku breaking through Hit's dimension to be a strong case that breaking through dimensional barriers as supporting evidence; on even larger level since it's breaking through it with one's aura. The only time I can really name when someone actually put force into their shout/yell is UI Goku powering up, and even then that's in the World of the Void where there's pretty much nothing but the Arena.

"SS3 Goku in the Buu Saga shook the planet and his energy was felt across the universe, no portal."

Maybe because simply powering up isn't what Vice Shout is at all?

"Kale was screaming like a maniac in the WoV, no portal."

Have you... ever thought of the fact that the WoV doesn't have pocket dimensions? It's described as complete void and nothingness many times, a place outside of the regular universes.

"Goku and Kefla powering up shaking the WoV/stage, no portal."

Look above.

"Only three people know the technique and have done it, simply warping the same space isn't as impressive."

https://youtu.be/_g6evRAYY5o?t=1m48s

This is a video of Gotenks performing the Vice Shout. Notice how he has to pause and actually prepare himself in order to do it. Lets compare this to Anilaza.

https://youtu.be/KJ91EsBV8PI?t=3m7s

See a difference? One is being spammed and also being used to kick Piccolo's friend's asses. There's also the difference of being able to warp your fist so that it comes out in another position from another area; which is again MECHANICALLY DIFFERENT FROM THE VICE SHOUT. And even if Vice shout is more impressive, are you saying Piccolo suddenly can't be impressed by something lesser?

A little hyperbolic example, Just because I've fired a Rifle before, does that suddenly mean I'm not allowed to be impressed by a pistol?

 

[Amexim]

Kukui, we don't need discussion rules for everything-- I swear, it's like you want to silence every non-staff member.

I don't even... I can't even dude.

 

[SomebodyData]

don't we count what Goku did to Hit's pocket time as portal generation too?

 

[Bluetrekking]

I agree with the OP as well.

 

[Amexim]

Once again, when saying that they can't do it, we're directly going against what the story says. Keep said it himself. "It was outright implied to be a strength related ability.

Chapter: 493 (DBZ 299), P7.1 Context: Super Saiyan Gotenks and Piccolo fail to open up a dimensional hole like Boo did Piccolo: "It-it's no use…Not even so much as a needle-sized hole will open up…!" Piccolo and SSJ Gotenks can't even open a needle-sized hole

Chapter: 493 (DBZ 299), P9.2-3, P10.3-4 Context: right after Gotenks transforms into a Super Saiyan 3 Piccolo: "Wh-what's happened to yo-you…!?" Gotenks: "Don't ask me, I don't know. Hehhe~~eh, that freaked you out, didn't it!? But I'm super-duper strong!"

• he screams and opens up a big hole*

Gotenks: "I did it!" But Gotenks, due to his strength, can."

If it was strength. Hmmm....

Maybe people stronger than him could, if they wanted to it needed to. Especially when we have Kale vs Cocotte, and Goku vs Hit as actual examples of bigger shit happening, even if Vegeta blowing up the RoSAT would kick him out of the room automatically-- which seems like a non-sequitor.

The fact that they didn't is PIS.

 

[Amexim]

@Kep, that's the thing though, the "Vice Shout" should be changed to limited Space Manip or something because of the other examples of people breaking dimensions without making portals. The portal part is just an example of how raw power can applied to stuff like that.

 

[Golden_Void]

Vegeta blew up the RoSaT's surface, not the dimension itself, I believe, unless I'm misremembering. Blowing up a planet sized space time is High 3-A.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Vegeta blew up the RoSaT's surface, not the dimension itself, I believe, unless I'm misremembering. Blowing up a planet sized space time is High 3-A.

https://youtu.be/oBO9Uy4uc_c?t=2m

 

[Amexim]

The only way it's combat applicable in the first place is by busting out of a pocket dimension someone BFR'd them to anyway.

And the reason why I think him blowing up the room is the same as him busting out of it similar to vice shout is that, well, if all we have is an explosion and him standing in a crater, unless he leisurely walked out of the room, and then blew up the temple for fun, he would have to somehow have removed himself from the room using his power. Because there's more of an assumption going into the idea that he somehow destroyed the entire space time of it. When they could also use it right after. Didn't Popo try to intimidate Vegeta for doing that? So, unless Popo is High 3A for creating RoSaT again, if Vegeta destroyed the space time and said Destruction defaulted him into the normal world-- which would basically be the same thing as him busting out anyway I think(?)-- then it's easier to assume he just busted out.

 

[Golden_Void]

Your entire argument on vice shout rests on the made-up belief that there needs to be a pocket dimenson involved.

 

[Amexim]

Like if Vegeta was High 3A (someone get a CRT), and he destroyed the timespace of the RoSaT, it would just be Vice Shout on a greater scale. Because with Gotenks, he pierced a hole in the dimensions to go to the one outside it. With Vegeta, he "broke the whole cage".

 

[Amexim]

@UMR No. It doesn't, actually. My argument rests on rational scaling. If X character has a hax done via a stat, any other character with comparable traits in that stat should be able to theoretically use that hax.

You're basically implying that Vice Shout can be done to make portals to... Where? If you're trying to say that they can just make Anilaza style portals from one point in their dimension to another in the same dimension, when that's applying new concepts and mechanics to what we've been shown, then you're the one making stuff up. Because all we know is that they can scream and poke a whole through RoSaT into the normal world. To assume it works like teleportation where they can somehow fold space from one place of the world into another has no evidence for it. Hell, to assume they can go back into RoSaT that way is less intuitive.

While we don't know if the pocket dimension is a hard requirement,

A. That's the only context this or similar feats are used in. So to say they could just "scream and open a portal from one part of the universe in the same dimension to another part on some Dr Strange shit" is a reach. B. It's intuitive to assume that you probably couldn't do it to, for example, shout back into a pocket dimension, since the blast cane and ripped a hole out of it...?

Your entire argument on vice shout rests on the made-up belief that there needs to be more to it than just having raw power channeled into a voice (if it's in any way concentrated into the scream at all). You have no evidence for your position at all.

So what's up?

 

[Golden_Void]

100% agree with the OP.
Remove it from the profiles. The end. There's no debate.

I'm not a big fan of circles.

 

[Amexim]

Because you won't listen to other people's arguments, you're just gonna apply the changes?

And, coming from Matt, a person who recently demonstrated that he didn't care about how many people disagreed or agreed with who and felt that what's correct is most important, I find it... Interesting that I might get in trouble if I adopt a similar tone as he.

Consequences be damned, it's only a circle because you refuse to actually budge. You don't make sense, but you don't realize that. Or Kami forbid, you don't care.

 

[Amexim]

I mean, I basically just corrected you a few seconds ago, and your response is to ignore that and be snarky?

You either don't have an argument, or you think you're too good to bother with me. Either way, that sucks.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Kukui, we don't need discussion rules for everything-- I swear, it's like you want to silence every non-staff member.
I don't even... I can't even dude.

Yeah no. Stop with this barrage of accusations.

This isnt at all true. This is a low blow and you know it.

 

[Amexim]

Kukui, how many times has this been discussed though? Like, if this was something that came up at least 3 times, I would be all for it. But to my knowledge, there's been two threads about Vice shout solely, and I was there for both of them I believe. Even if that sounds harsh, you have a tendency to recommend things be cut off with discussion rules.

Which, you're smart enough to realize, can be toxic for a community already filled with people who tend to not realize or, at worse, care about other people's opinions.

 

[SomebodyData]

How about instead of trying to attack Kukui you try to debunk the points or at least wait for them to respond? @Amexim

 

[Amexim]

Data, I have been doing it all day. If you read the thread, it's been me and Ak who were debunking points the entire time. My posts are without a doubt the longest and the ones litered with the most points next to AK.

Kukui isn't the source of the problem, but the fact that staff, well intentioned as they may be, tend to close threads that "don't go anywhere"-- and sometimes it's at the expense of actually reliable arguments.

I can apologize to Kukui if he really needs me to, but I would like someone-- perhaps you, to weigh in. Or are we just gonna close the thread like no one was saying anything?

It just frustrates me, not that no one agreed with me, but that no one understands the points I'm making. I can be wrong, but I'm not. So what's frustrating is that people keep saying the same points over and over without any solid evidence for it, and then staff will close it just because no one will budge an inch, and then, since this is dragon Ball, it'll just become staff only, alienating me.

It's like we forgot why we even allowed this ruling in the first place...

 

[Golden_Void]

Nobody is closing anything, you two derailed the post with the mechanics of Buu's attacks vs Anilaza's.

Regardless of what the requirements are to do a vice shout, only three people have done them, so only three people should have them, not a "possibly" rating for 60% of the verse.

That's it.

Imagine how foolish it would've looked to apply "possibly super saiyan transformation" to all the saiyans from U6 before we actually saw that they could transform.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Remember the last DB character we assumed could do things before it was confirmed?

His name was Monaka.

 

[AKM sama]

Your entire argument on vice shout rests on the made-up belief that there needs to be a pocket dimenson involved.

It's not a made up belief though. It is something the series has always shown us.

No destruction of space-time or portal creation happens when characters scream, unless some pocket dimension is involved. And there are plenty of examples which back it up, which I already mentioned.

 

[Amexim]

False equivalence between this and "possibly super Saiyan" thing and Monaka. With the SS, it's plausible that some saiyans can't go SS.

Goku and everyone stronger than super buu should be able to do this. It makes no sense otherwise.

 

[Akreious]

I've said it once and I'll say it again. The Vice shoot cannot be compared to special or exclusive techniques or forms like super saiyan. Actually no, it's legit displayed that any saiyan past a certain point in strength can easily get super saiyan (literally anybody from U6 that's notably strong).

Examples of breaking the walls of pocket dimensions are littered all over DBS. So you're telling me that Goku is able to charge up and break Hit's dimension but not perform the vice shoot performed by significantly weaker characters?