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Dragon Ball Ability Revisions
- Thread starter Golden_Void
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- dragon ball
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Okay, this is going in circles again.
First, the reason given in the OP is invalid as it is dealing with false equivalence. As I explained above, Anilaza's portal creation (which is the true portal creation ability) is totally different than the vice shout thing. Vice shout only works where a pocket dimension is involved. So the best we can do is change the name from "Portal Creation" to something more fitting.
Second, the same people who were arguing in the last thread are arguing again with the same arguments. I mean this is the exact repeat of the previous thread. https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1122678
First, the reason given in the OP is invalid as it is dealing with false equivalence. As I explained above, Anilaza's portal creation (which is the true portal creation ability) is totally different than the vice shout thing. Vice shout only works where a pocket dimension is involved. So the best we can do is change the name from "Portal Creation" to something more fitting.
Second, the same people who were arguing in the last thread are arguing again with the same arguments. I mean this is the exact repeat of the previous thread. https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1122678
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Using possibly for justification is not a good basis.
I am fine with Buu and Gotenks having it, doesn't mean everyone should have it.
I thought it was fine at the time, but some issues.
1. Just because they have the power potential, doesn't mean they can do it. Just because you have the power to do it, doesn't mean you can/will. It ignores the characters knowledge, their abilities, and their mastery. It has a few variables other than just 'power'.
Goku can probably do it, doesn't mean he knows how or will.
Or else he would have done it when he was powering up against his first encounter with buu.
2. Possibly in a power set based on a safe assumption, however is not ever mentioned again. At best, it only happened in a pocket dimension where it is riddled with some questionable circumstances. Such as while they had the power to do it, they only did it in the hyperbolic time chamber. This seems more like an ability needed to be created just because the plot demanded it.
Went from in support to neutral, but it does seem like a stupid ability to add to the profiles, and even if the above was true, it is likely not 'combat applicable'.
So if we keep it, make sure to specify it isn't combat applicable.
Or we take it out entirely, chalk it up to PIS.
I am fine with Buu and Gotenks having it, doesn't mean everyone should have it.
I thought it was fine at the time, but some issues.
1. Just because they have the power potential, doesn't mean they can do it. Just because you have the power to do it, doesn't mean you can/will. It ignores the characters knowledge, their abilities, and their mastery. It has a few variables other than just 'power'.
Goku can probably do it, doesn't mean he knows how or will.
Or else he would have done it when he was powering up against his first encounter with buu.
2. Possibly in a power set based on a safe assumption, however is not ever mentioned again. At best, it only happened in a pocket dimension where it is riddled with some questionable circumstances. Such as while they had the power to do it, they only did it in the hyperbolic time chamber. This seems more like an ability needed to be created just because the plot demanded it.
Went from in support to neutral, but it does seem like a stupid ability to add to the profiles, and even if the above was true, it is likely not 'combat applicable'.
So if we keep it, make sure to specify it isn't combat applicable.
Or we take it out entirely, chalk it up to PIS.
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1. There is literally nothing to the mechanic but screaming. Plz stop treating Vice Shout as if it's the Rasengan or some kind of complex technique. There is no Mastery of it.
2. We literally just listed instances where similar stuff happens. It's replicated in a myriad of different ways in the show. Examples include Goku vs Hit (rematch), Vegeta busting out of the Time Chamber, Kale and Caulifla vs Cocotte and the other Pride Troopers.
I think we should change it from portal creation specifically to "possibly limited spatial Manipulation" and put an addendum that says (they should be strong enough to break and punch holes and/or portals through dimensions should the situation arise).
Did you even read any of what we said?
2. We literally just listed instances where similar stuff happens. It's replicated in a myriad of different ways in the show. Examples include Goku vs Hit (rematch), Vegeta busting out of the Time Chamber, Kale and Caulifla vs Cocotte and the other Pride Troopers.
I think we should change it from portal creation specifically to "possibly limited spatial Manipulation" and put an addendum that says (they should be strong enough to break and punch holes and/or portals through dimensions should the situation arise).
Did you even read any of what we said?
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- Thread starter
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The only argument for keeping it is that it was an ability stated to be possible through pure strength.
It's also vastly better than Anilaza's feat, given it bridges dimensions, not merely connecting two points of the same space.
That said, Piccolo was shocked a universal tier character could do something a solar system character could do on an entirely superior level. Nobody else stronger than Anilaza replicated the ability even though it did it through pure strength.
On top of that, unless you let someone stand there for a decent amount of time to scream hard enough to open a portal, its not really a good option to use in combat.
IMO, Piccolo, Buu and Gotenks should be the only ones to have it, as they're the only ones who displayed it with varying levels of success.
Inb4 "so Piccolo can have it, but Goku can't?"
I guess we should start scaling resistances by power level too.
It's also vastly better than Anilaza's feat, given it bridges dimensions, not merely connecting two points of the same space.
That said, Piccolo was shocked a universal tier character could do something a solar system character could do on an entirely superior level. Nobody else stronger than Anilaza replicated the ability even though it did it through pure strength.
On top of that, unless you let someone stand there for a decent amount of time to scream hard enough to open a portal, its not really a good option to use in combat.
IMO, Piccolo, Buu and Gotenks should be the only ones to have it, as they're the only ones who displayed it with varying levels of success.
Inb4 "so Piccolo can have it, but Goku can't?"
I guess we should start scaling resistances by power level too.
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"It's also vastly better than Anilaza's feat, given it bridges dimensions, not merely connecting two points of the same space."
I'm pretty sure bridging your attack in two positions in space requries more mastery of energy than yelling hard enough to break dimensional walls down. This isn't comparable with eachother. One requires you to know how to control your strikes so it comes out at the right angle to attack your opponent; one is screaming hard enough to break walls between a pocket dimension and the regular dimension.
"That said, Piccolo was shocked a universal tier character could do something a solar system character could do on an entirely superior level. Nobody else stronger than Anilaza replicated the ability even though it did it through pure strength. "
Or maybe because the mechanics of the two abilities don't apply to eachother?
"On top of that, unless you let someone stand there for a decent amount of time to scream hard enough to open a portal, its not really a good option to use in combat. "
I'll use the argument used time and time again; This is an indexing site. Whether it's combat applicable or not has no bearing on its listing. PLUS, it literally takes a couple of seconds to do. Like, only a few panels max in the manga.
"IMO, Piccolo, Buu and Gotenks should be the only ones to have it, as they're the only ones who displayed it with varying levels of success."
So Piccolo's equal (Goku) in terms of combat ability, is unable to do Vice Shout because he's never showed it? What? Lets bring up the example above again; I guess Beerus is literally INCAPABLE of performing Destructo Disc or Whis is unable to do the Kamehameha because they never showed it right?
"I guess we should start scaling resistances by power level too."
That's how Dragon Ball works, but not here so don't bring that up. Unlike resistances, Piccolo's only reason for his failure is because he lacks power period. It's not a specific ability; it's SCREAMING LOUDLY. Or else I guess Grand Priest is unable to do the Solar Flare or Zen'Os guards are unable to fire off a Ki Blast right? Because they never showed it?
I'm pretty sure bridging your attack in two positions in space requries more mastery of energy than yelling hard enough to break dimensional walls down. This isn't comparable with eachother. One requires you to know how to control your strikes so it comes out at the right angle to attack your opponent; one is screaming hard enough to break walls between a pocket dimension and the regular dimension.
"That said, Piccolo was shocked a universal tier character could do something a solar system character could do on an entirely superior level. Nobody else stronger than Anilaza replicated the ability even though it did it through pure strength. "
Or maybe because the mechanics of the two abilities don't apply to eachother?
"On top of that, unless you let someone stand there for a decent amount of time to scream hard enough to open a portal, its not really a good option to use in combat. "
I'll use the argument used time and time again; This is an indexing site. Whether it's combat applicable or not has no bearing on its listing. PLUS, it literally takes a couple of seconds to do. Like, only a few panels max in the manga.
"IMO, Piccolo, Buu and Gotenks should be the only ones to have it, as they're the only ones who displayed it with varying levels of success."
So Piccolo's equal (Goku) in terms of combat ability, is unable to do Vice Shout because he's never showed it? What? Lets bring up the example above again; I guess Beerus is literally INCAPABLE of performing Destructo Disc or Whis is unable to do the Kamehameha because they never showed it right?
"I guess we should start scaling resistances by power level too."
That's how Dragon Ball works, but not here so don't bring that up. Unlike resistances, Piccolo's only reason for his failure is because he lacks power period. It's not a specific ability; it's SCREAMING LOUDLY. Or else I guess Grand Priest is unable to do the Solar Flare or Zen'Os guards are unable to fire off a Ki Blast right? Because they never showed it?
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@UMR
Dyspo was also hailed for being faster than light. Bad writing that makes characters say stuff that doesn't make sense isn't good evidence. Mr. Pickle's statement isn't very helpful here. Bad writing and PIS.
And it's not for combat. Even though characters have used variations of this shit. Like with Goku against Hit.
And yes. CERTAIN RESISTANCES that can be connected to power levels should scale. Just make sure they're connected to power. Like resisting the Hakai. And probably Vegeta's absolute zero resistance-- he just didn't care he got frozen tbh. A resistance-- sure, but nothing about it implies that he has some special abikity, unlike his Telekinesis.
Dyspo was also hailed for being faster than light. Bad writing that makes characters say stuff that doesn't make sense isn't good evidence. Mr. Pickle's statement isn't very helpful here. Bad writing and PIS.
And it's not for combat. Even though characters have used variations of this shit. Like with Goku against Hit.
And yes. CERTAIN RESISTANCES that can be connected to power levels should scale. Just make sure they're connected to power. Like resisting the Hakai. And probably Vegeta's absolute zero resistance-- he just didn't care he got frozen tbh. A resistance-- sure, but nothing about it implies that he has some special abikity, unlike his Telekinesis.
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- Thread starter
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@akreious
Capable doesn't mean you can.
You're also downplaying vice shout to make it seem like Anilaza's feat is superior, when it factually isn't.
"I guess Beerus is literally INCAPABLE of performing Destructo Disc or Whis is unable to do the Kamehameha because they never showed it right?"
I guess all angels should know Hakai since they train the gods of destruction, yet there is no evidence of it. Therefore, absence of evidence is evidence of absence in these situations, until proven otherwise. Lets not compare simple ki manipulation to hax abilities.
@Amexim
Dyspo being vaguely stated as FTL isn't the same as being visibly shocked by an ability similar to one Piccolo has seen before.
Capable doesn't mean you can.
You're also downplaying vice shout to make it seem like Anilaza's feat is superior, when it factually isn't.
"I guess Beerus is literally INCAPABLE of performing Destructo Disc or Whis is unable to do the Kamehameha because they never showed it right?"
I guess all angels should know Hakai since they train the gods of destruction, yet there is no evidence of it. Therefore, absence of evidence is evidence of absence in these situations, until proven otherwise. Lets not compare simple ki manipulation to hax abilities.
@Amexim
Dyspo being vaguely stated as FTL isn't the same as being visibly shocked by an ability similar to one Piccolo has seen before.
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"You're also downplaying vice shout to make it seem like Anilaza's feat is superior, when it factually isn't."
... What? I literally said they mechanically function differently. Anilaza is bridging two positions in space, the other is breaking the wall between a local pocket dimension and the regular dimension. One involves transferring force to another space in time to hit your opponent; the other is breaking down a dimensional wall. They mechanically function differently.
"I guess all angels should know Hakai since they train the gods of destruction, yet there is no evidence of it. Therefore, absence of evidence is evidence of absence in these situations, until proven otherwise. Lets not compare simple ki manipulation to hax abilities."
Problem is; such hax abilities are directly correlated with Ki manipulation and the power of said Ki. Also Hakai energy is stated to be directly correlated with one's position; with Toppo gaining the Hakai ability when he became a God of Destruction Candidate and as such gained hakai energy. As Angels aren't Gods of Destruction, they logically shouldn't have Hakai. So this example of Angels not having Hakai is a bad one as it's explained to be a consequence of position; not simple ability.
"Dyspo being vaguely stated as FTL isn't the same as being visibly shocked by an ability similar to one Piccolo has seen before."
Or maybe, like I said above, the two feats are mechanically different from eachother?
... What? I literally said they mechanically function differently. Anilaza is bridging two positions in space, the other is breaking the wall between a local pocket dimension and the regular dimension. One involves transferring force to another space in time to hit your opponent; the other is breaking down a dimensional wall. They mechanically function differently.
"I guess all angels should know Hakai since they train the gods of destruction, yet there is no evidence of it. Therefore, absence of evidence is evidence of absence in these situations, until proven otherwise. Lets not compare simple ki manipulation to hax abilities."
Problem is; such hax abilities are directly correlated with Ki manipulation and the power of said Ki. Also Hakai energy is stated to be directly correlated with one's position; with Toppo gaining the Hakai ability when he became a God of Destruction Candidate and as such gained hakai energy. As Angels aren't Gods of Destruction, they logically shouldn't have Hakai. So this example of Angels not having Hakai is a bad one as it's explained to be a consequence of position; not simple ability.
"Dyspo being vaguely stated as FTL isn't the same as being visibly shocked by an ability similar to one Piccolo has seen before."
Or maybe, like I said above, the two feats are mechanically different from eachother?
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- Thread starter
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"As Angels aren't Gods of Destruction, they logically shouldn't have Hakai. So this example of Angels not having Hakai is a bad one as it's explained to be a consequence of position; not simple ability."
Except Angels are described as teachers of the gods, so they literally mold them into a proper GoD.
The mechanics of Buu and Anilaza's techniques don't matter. Both make portals, and bridging two spacetimes is more impressive than two portals in the same space.
Except Angels are described as teachers of the gods, so they literally mold them into a proper GoD.
The mechanics of Buu and Anilaza's techniques don't matter. Both make portals, and bridging two spacetimes is more impressive than two portals in the same space.
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"Except Angels are described as teachers of the gods, so they literally mold them into a proper GoD."
Okay? If I teach someone how to fire a gun, does that suddenly give me a gun in my pocket? Angels most likely knows how Hakai works but lack hakai energy. it's not about ability, it's the energy given to them by the position that allows Hakai. Or in other words; They have the knowledge, but lack the toolkit.
"The mechanics of Buu and Anilaza's techniques don't matter. Both make portals, and bridging two spacetimes is more impressive than two portals in the same space."
Difference between the two is, one is absolutely combat applicable. The Vice Shout requires you to put fourth all your power to break through dimensional walls; Anilaza can spam his version. Also why can't Piccolo be impressed by it? He failed at the Vice Shout in the first place, and now he's seeing a similar but way more combat applicable version that's being used to kick his friend's asses. Actually, the possibility that Goku and Gang might lose from this ability alone would make anyone nervous regardless of any previous feat you might've done. If they lose; you all get erased! How does that not warrant worry?
Edit:
"That makes sense, the gods of destruction doesn't born with Hakai, and in the manga Beerus taught Goku the Hakai." Manga =/= Anime
Okay? If I teach someone how to fire a gun, does that suddenly give me a gun in my pocket? Angels most likely knows how Hakai works but lack hakai energy. it's not about ability, it's the energy given to them by the position that allows Hakai. Or in other words; They have the knowledge, but lack the toolkit.
"The mechanics of Buu and Anilaza's techniques don't matter. Both make portals, and bridging two spacetimes is more impressive than two portals in the same space."
Difference between the two is, one is absolutely combat applicable. The Vice Shout requires you to put fourth all your power to break through dimensional walls; Anilaza can spam his version. Also why can't Piccolo be impressed by it? He failed at the Vice Shout in the first place, and now he's seeing a similar but way more combat applicable version that's being used to kick his friend's asses. Actually, the possibility that Goku and Gang might lose from this ability alone would make anyone nervous regardless of any previous feat you might've done. If they lose; you all get erased! How does that not warrant worry?
Edit:
"That makes sense, the gods of destruction doesn't born with Hakai, and in the manga Beerus taught Goku the Hakai." Manga =/= Anime
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"Okay? If I teach someone how to fire a gun, does that suddenly give me a gun in my pocket?"
False equivalency and non-sequitur.
"Angels most likely knows how Hakai works but lack hakai energy. it's not about ability, it's the energy given to them by the position that allows Hakai. Or in other words; They have the knowledge, but lack the toolkit. "
This makes no sense. For one, you have no proof of these claims. Two, Toppo isn't a seated GoD, yet he has access to GoD abilities through training he's received. He didn't just scream and automatically know how to do everything. How can angels know how hakai works yet be unable to show their god the actual technique? 9/10 if someone is teaching an ability, they themselves can do it. We never see King Kai use spirit bomb, instant transmission, or kaioken, but he teaches all of these (minus IT) to Goku.
False equivalency and non-sequitur.
"Angels most likely knows how Hakai works but lack hakai energy. it's not about ability, it's the energy given to them by the position that allows Hakai. Or in other words; They have the knowledge, but lack the toolkit. "
This makes no sense. For one, you have no proof of these claims. Two, Toppo isn't a seated GoD, yet he has access to GoD abilities through training he's received. He didn't just scream and automatically know how to do everything. How can angels know how hakai works yet be unable to show their god the actual technique? 9/10 if someone is teaching an ability, they themselves can do it. We never see King Kai use spirit bomb, instant transmission, or kaioken, but he teaches all of these (minus IT) to Goku.
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I agree with Unite My Rice about the Vice Shout.
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UMR;
You're the one who's upselling Vice Shout. Explain to me how ripping holes in space with enough consistency and precision to make them consistent appear wherever you wanted-- using them in combat to augment your strikes by warping them to wherever you choose is less complex and skill based than basically screaming hard enough at your jail cell and it breaking from your voice.
"Both make portals, and bridging two spacetimes is more impressive than two portals in the same space." Out of context, maybe. But in context, and possibly even out of context, the latter requires more control than the former. Breaking through a dimensional wall like your Ki is a sledgehammer is raw power. Fisting the universe and making your hands come out in different places OF YOUR CHOOSING, is controlled, and grounds for a more "impressive" thing, based on the fact that the user has to actually manipulate the phenomenon more than just breaking stuff.
Being in the same space-time doesn't matter for Anilaza's strikes. The point is, Vice Shout demonstrates that it's exclusively raw power with no control over what happens. It's just Ki being forced through a dimension-- shit that happened with Hit, and Vegeta, and Kale and Caulifla sans SHOUTING. It doesn't even need to be Vice Shout "portal creation". Limited space Manip is fine. Because it's more accurate than just the screaming stuff.
Edit: Arguing that Piccolo's statement somehow negates what he stated before, despite being powerful enough at this point to vice shout whenever he wanted, is ridiculous cherry-picking. With Dyspo's statement, and Piccolo's, they're both ridiculous based on what happened in the series previously. Are you really about to use bad writing to justify a statement like this? When we know what we know about vice shout? Remember Frieza saying that a blast he fired at Toppo could destroy the planet-- as if that's supposed to be impressive?! Is Frieza and everyone just planet now...?
The point about characters being "capable of something"...
Capable doesn't mean they can. But you're assuming because no one has shown it, they CAN'T-- CAN'T as if Destructo Disc was a Kekkei Genkai or some genetic or Spiritual hax exclusive to Goku, Vegeta, Krillin, Frieza-- even though there's examples of it in different ways, in addition to the only information on your case is an out of pocket stupid statement that doesn't even remember anything the series has done in the past. FRIEZA had an example.
With the Kamehameha and Solar Flare, being capable of it isn't grounds for having it as a technique. That's not correct, and I don't think Ak is saying that. I think we're both saying that, if you have the capability of doing something like this-- vice shout's mechanics are raw power and screaming alone-- if you meet both if those requirements, and it's not a specific technique or anything you even need to learn, you could do it too.
You're arguing about the wrong stuff. Plz stop.
You're the one who's upselling Vice Shout. Explain to me how ripping holes in space with enough consistency and precision to make them consistent appear wherever you wanted-- using them in combat to augment your strikes by warping them to wherever you choose is less complex and skill based than basically screaming hard enough at your jail cell and it breaking from your voice.
"Both make portals, and bridging two spacetimes is more impressive than two portals in the same space." Out of context, maybe. But in context, and possibly even out of context, the latter requires more control than the former. Breaking through a dimensional wall like your Ki is a sledgehammer is raw power. Fisting the universe and making your hands come out in different places OF YOUR CHOOSING, is controlled, and grounds for a more "impressive" thing, based on the fact that the user has to actually manipulate the phenomenon more than just breaking stuff.
Being in the same space-time doesn't matter for Anilaza's strikes. The point is, Vice Shout demonstrates that it's exclusively raw power with no control over what happens. It's just Ki being forced through a dimension-- shit that happened with Hit, and Vegeta, and Kale and Caulifla sans SHOUTING. It doesn't even need to be Vice Shout "portal creation". Limited space Manip is fine. Because it's more accurate than just the screaming stuff.
Edit: Arguing that Piccolo's statement somehow negates what he stated before, despite being powerful enough at this point to vice shout whenever he wanted, is ridiculous cherry-picking. With Dyspo's statement, and Piccolo's, they're both ridiculous based on what happened in the series previously. Are you really about to use bad writing to justify a statement like this? When we know what we know about vice shout? Remember Frieza saying that a blast he fired at Toppo could destroy the planet-- as if that's supposed to be impressive?! Is Frieza and everyone just planet now...?
The point about characters being "capable of something"...
Capable doesn't mean they can. But you're assuming because no one has shown it, they CAN'T-- CAN'T as if Destructo Disc was a Kekkei Genkai or some genetic or Spiritual hax exclusive to Goku, Vegeta, Krillin, Frieza-- even though there's examples of it in different ways, in addition to the only information on your case is an out of pocket stupid statement that doesn't even remember anything the series has done in the past. FRIEZA had an example.
With the Kamehameha and Solar Flare, being capable of it isn't grounds for having it as a technique. That's not correct, and I don't think Ak is saying that. I think we're both saying that, if you have the capability of doing something like this-- vice shout's mechanics are raw power and screaming alone-- if you meet both if those requirements, and it's not a specific technique or anything you even need to learn, you could do it too.
You're arguing about the wrong stuff. Plz stop.
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"That said, Piccolo was shocked a universal tier character could do something a solar system character could do on an entirely superior level."
That still is false equivalence. You are comparing 2 different abilities. Anilaza's ability is to create portals in same space-time. Screaming only works for pocket dimensions, as shown many times in the series.
In DB, creating portals in same space-time is much impressive ability than screaming pocket dimensions away.
That still is false equivalence. You are comparing 2 different abilities. Anilaza's ability is to create portals in same space-time. Screaming only works for pocket dimensions, as shown many times in the series.
In DB, creating portals in same space-time is much impressive ability than screaming pocket dimensions away.
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Anyway, the screaming actually destroys pocket dimensions. Buu and Gotenks only managed to rip a hole in the dimension because they were weaker. As we have seen Vegeta destroyed RoSaT twice, Goku destroyed Hit's dimension and Kale destroyed Cocotte's dimension. They all were stronger than Buu and Gotenks. It's not portal creation.
Think of a pocket dimension as a metal plate. While weaker characters can only poke holes in it, stronger characters can destroy it completely. Obviously, it also depends on the pocket dimension itself.
Think of a pocket dimension as a metal plate. While weaker characters can only poke holes in it, stronger characters can destroy it completely. Obviously, it also depends on the pocket dimension itself.
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Just because you meet these requirements, doesnt mean you can do it.Amexim said:
A martial artist with years of mastery over techniques may not be able to imitate a move he has never heard of before.
No one knows about this except Piccolo, Buu and Goku.
It ignores the plot entirely.
And also, you are being very, very dismissive.
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Why do you think there's a POSSIBLY in front? We know they CAN, and it's not any special ability. Hell, in DBS, they performed much better feats than Vice Shout such as BLOWING UP the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and breaking through Hit's dimension (Via sheer power).KinkiestSins said:
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No we don't, that is an argument from belief.Akreious said:
Why? Because the only people that know about the technique itself was stated above.
You may have the power, but that doesnt mean you know the technique.
It requires power, sure. And perhaps Ki and a shout.
But if that were the only requirements. Literally everyone would have done it by now.
It is based on flimsy logic that doesnt hold up to the current context of the show and might just be an ability because the 'plot demanded it'.
And we are talking DBZ here, not DBS.
Before you go back to 'Anilaza', at least for me, I care more about the ability at best, being not combat applicable since it was only done in the hyperbolic time chamber. At worst, it is inconsistent with the verse.
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"No we don't, that is an argument from belief.
Why? Because the only people that know about the technique itself was stated above."
You mean... shouting hard enough at a location? Again, it's not a technique you need to learn unlike what you're thinking. Hell, even Gotenks saw Vice Shout once and was all "I know how to do this" despite being... Gotenks! You're literally saying these characters cannot yell hard enough at a location. that's the implication.
"You may have the power, but that doesnt mean you know the technique."
The Vice Shout isn't some special technique like you're implying.
"It requires power, sure. And perhaps Ki and a shout.
But if that were the only requirements. Literally everyone would have done it by now."
Explain to me WHERE they needed to do vice shout again after the Buu incident? Exactly; never. They never needed to again. Why would "literally everyone would have done it by now" if they never had to occasion to do so afterwards ever?
"It is based on flimsy logic that doesnt hold up to the current context of the show and might just be an ability because the 'plot demanded it'\"
Super Saiyan 3 was a deus ex machina and also because the plot demanded it. You're treating Vice Shout as this super special technique when how it works tells completely otherwise.
"And we are talking DBZ here, not DBS."
Except people like SSJ3 Gotenks and Buuhan are top tier of DBZ. Only characters stronger in-canon is DBS, which is where most profiles have the Vice Shout.
"Before you go back to 'Anilaza', at least for me, I care more about the ability at best, being not combat applicable since it was only done in the hyperbolic time chamber. At worst, it is inconsistent with the verse."
Piccolo doesn't care what you think. Being able to spam-create portals and attack your opponent from any angle is MASSIVELY more impressive than destroying the walls between local pocket dimensions. One requires a knowledge of how space works and how to create the portal at exactly the right angle to attack your enemy from behind/off-guard and the other is yelling hard enough that walls break.
Why? Because the only people that know about the technique itself was stated above."
You mean... shouting hard enough at a location? Again, it's not a technique you need to learn unlike what you're thinking. Hell, even Gotenks saw Vice Shout once and was all "I know how to do this" despite being... Gotenks! You're literally saying these characters cannot yell hard enough at a location. that's the implication.
"You may have the power, but that doesnt mean you know the technique."
The Vice Shout isn't some special technique like you're implying.
"It requires power, sure. And perhaps Ki and a shout.
But if that were the only requirements. Literally everyone would have done it by now."
Explain to me WHERE they needed to do vice shout again after the Buu incident? Exactly; never. They never needed to again. Why would "literally everyone would have done it by now" if they never had to occasion to do so afterwards ever?
"It is based on flimsy logic that doesnt hold up to the current context of the show and might just be an ability because the 'plot demanded it'\"
Super Saiyan 3 was a deus ex machina and also because the plot demanded it. You're treating Vice Shout as this super special technique when how it works tells completely otherwise.
"And we are talking DBZ here, not DBS."
Except people like SSJ3 Gotenks and Buuhan are top tier of DBZ. Only characters stronger in-canon is DBS, which is where most profiles have the Vice Shout.
"Before you go back to 'Anilaza', at least for me, I care more about the ability at best, being not combat applicable since it was only done in the hyperbolic time chamber. At worst, it is inconsistent with the verse."
Piccolo doesn't care what you think. Being able to spam-create portals and attack your opponent from any angle is MASSIVELY more impressive than destroying the walls between local pocket dimensions. One requires a knowledge of how space works and how to create the portal at exactly the right angle to attack your enemy from behind/off-guard and the other is yelling hard enough that walls break.
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First off Kinky. No. This isn't an argument from belief fallacy-- that's used when people say shit like "if everyone else thinks it's true, it's gotta be!" Please don't try that again. If anyone is being fallacious, it's you. Despite us bringing forth evidence and logic, you continue to say that you refuse to entertain even the POSSIBILITY of these characters being able to MAYBE do something like this or similar to it-- despite examples persisting.
Your sole arguments rely on two things.
1. That Vice Shout is a technique that people need to know the mechanics of in order to do. When it's literally just being strong and screaming-- otherwise, Piccolo and Gotenks wouldn't have been able to replicate it without study or something. Even the idea that it could be is assuming more from what is demonstrated than what isn't. Vice Shout isn't even complicated enough to be considered a technique that you have to be taught. It's people screaming. And similar shit has happened. Hit v Goku. Vegeta v Time Chamber. Kale v Cocotte.
Saying "no one knows the technique" for something that's not even complex enough to be considered an attack or technique or move is ridiculous. And we already continued to point to examples of where characters have done something similar to created dimensions.
2. That because a character hasn't shown it, it means they CANNOT do it. This is by definition an argument from ignorance. And if you're smart enough to note fallacies, which you are, then you should be capable of recognizing your argument makes no sense.
We have been saying the same thing over and over again. It's ridiculous.
Your sole arguments rely on two things.
1. That Vice Shout is a technique that people need to know the mechanics of in order to do. When it's literally just being strong and screaming-- otherwise, Piccolo and Gotenks wouldn't have been able to replicate it without study or something. Even the idea that it could be is assuming more from what is demonstrated than what isn't. Vice Shout isn't even complicated enough to be considered a technique that you have to be taught. It's people screaming. And similar shit has happened. Hit v Goku. Vegeta v Time Chamber. Kale v Cocotte.
Saying "no one knows the technique" for something that's not even complex enough to be considered an attack or technique or move is ridiculous. And we already continued to point to examples of where characters have done something similar to created dimensions.
2. That because a character hasn't shown it, it means they CANNOT do it. This is by definition an argument from ignorance. And if you're smart enough to note fallacies, which you are, then you should be capable of recognizing your argument makes no sense.
We have been saying the same thing over and over again. It's ridiculous.
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What part of my above comments did you miss? I literally said this.Akreious said:
One, the only people that have seen the technique is Buu, Gotenks and Piccolo. Goku didnt see it, neither did Vegeta, Whis, Beerus etc. Assuming they can while forgetting the plot circumstances, and then arguing everyone can do is an argument from belief.
Using an argument on the reason why they haven't done it because they 'didn't' need it and 'where would they need to do it only further reinforces my point. This an ability because the plot demanded.
If you choose to accept it because 'well Gotenks did it' then you need to also need to accept the idea that 'Goku' can do it with shouting and Ki, which he didnt. This isnt a one way street. For the above technique to be true, both things need to be true.
Super Sayain Three was not a deus ex machina, do you even know what a deus ex machina is?
A deus ex machina is a plot device where an unsolvable problem becomes solvable suddenly."
This isn't super sayain three. We know goku knew the technique and why he couldnt do it.
One, it drained his time on earth.
Two, his physical body when he did get it back wasn't tough enough to sustain the form.
This isnt a deus ex machna, by any stretch.
You just strawmanned my last point I said. "It wont be combat applicable or it is inconsistent."
You said "Piccolo doesn't care what you think (not a debunk.) Being able to spam create portals and attack your opponent from any angel is massively more impressive then destroying the walls between local pocket dimensions. (not a debunk). One requires a knowledge on how space works (pretty sure Gotenks didn't know this at the ripe old age of 10.) and how to create a portal at a right angle to attack your enemy from behind/off guard while the other is yelling hard enough walls break. (Also not a debunk.)
It isn't combat applicable because the only time we saw this technique is in the hyperbolic time chamber.
And if you do accept that 'he can do it else where', why hasn't literally done this technique since?
Not Gotenks, Not Piccolo, No one.
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Also, Kinky, every ability is because the plot demanded it. You can't call abilities themselves outliers-- especially when there's consistent demonstrations of similar things being done over and over again.
If Goku was Universal, he would have destroyed Earth and the entire universe in every fight after the battle of God's arc. If Naruto was town level, kunai would break on his body. If Sonic was faster than light-- he can't, because that's impossible for one, but he would also be practically everywhere at once.
We can pull out these stupid things all day, but you are smart enough to know that those arguments are bullshit.
If Goku was Universal, he would have destroyed Earth and the entire universe in every fight after the battle of God's arc. If Naruto was town level, kunai would break on his body. If Sonic was faster than light-- he can't, because that's impossible for one, but he would also be practically everywhere at once.
We can pull out these stupid things all day, but you are smart enough to know that those arguments are bullshit.
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Yes it is. You argued that everyone can do it because the requirements have been shown and people have broken them, but you haven't shown me proof other then 'sheer power' and yet ignore that if that were the only requirements, literally everyone would have done it by now.Amexim said:
1. Already answered this. If those were the only requirements, we would have seen this technique again from those powering up who are stronger then super buu.
2. Yes they can because playing both devils advocate
"if you needed only power, then everyone would have done it by now." = No one has
"It requires a technique!" = Then everyone can do it and we should have been able to see it at least once. Which we haven't.
If that is a fallacy, the entire reason for why we give the ability in the first place is a massive circle jerk.
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100% agree with the OP.
Remove it from the profiles. The end. There's no debate.
Remove it from the profiles. The end. There's no debate.
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^
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Just going to note out real fast while given the chance, if this is really getting removed, we need a discussion rule to prevent this topic from coming again like before.
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I agree with Sins and Rice.
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@Kukui
That's really not necessary.
That's really not necessary.
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Only thing I'm worried about is the people misspelling "false equivalence" as "false equivalency", implying they're using the term just because they saw others use it, without even knowing what it means.
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@Akreious
There's no debate. If simply being strong and yelling was the key to vice shout, literally everybody in Super would be breaking dimensional boundaries left and right.
SS3 Goku in the Buu Saga shook the planet and his energy was felt across the universe, no portal.
Kale was screaming like a maniac in the WoV, no portal.
Goku and Kefla powering up shaking the WoV/stage, no portal.
Only three people know the technique and have done it, simply warping the same space isn't as impressive.
There's no debate. If simply being strong and yelling was the key to vice shout, literally everybody in Super would be breaking dimensional boundaries left and right.
SS3 Goku in the Buu Saga shook the planet and his energy was felt across the universe, no portal.
Kale was screaming like a maniac in the WoV, no portal.
Goku and Kefla powering up shaking the WoV/stage, no portal.
Only three people know the technique and have done it, simply warping the same space isn't as impressive.
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I mean, at least acknowledge our points and try to talk it out like Kinkiest is (Playing devil's advocate apparently).
Aaaanyways
"1. Already answered this. If those were the only requirements, we would have seen this technique again from those powering up who are stronger then super buu."
Except the times the powered up lacked a pocket dimension to blow a hole into. Which is kind of what you need in order to blow a hole into a pocket dimension.
""if you needed only power, then everyone would have done it by now." = No one has
"It requires a technique!" = Then everyone can do it and we should have been able to see it at least once. Which we haven't."
... Yeah. Nobody has, they never had the occasion or need to do so again.
2nd one, again never had the occasion to do so again. I'd also like to bring up Vegeta BLOWING UP the Hyperbolic Time Chamber again, which is a much more impressive and large scale feat than the Vice Shout
Aaaanyways
"1. Already answered this. If those were the only requirements, we would have seen this technique again from those powering up who are stronger then super buu."
Except the times the powered up lacked a pocket dimension to blow a hole into. Which is kind of what you need in order to blow a hole into a pocket dimension.
""if you needed only power, then everyone would have done it by now." = No one has
"It requires a technique!" = Then everyone can do it and we should have been able to see it at least once. Which we haven't."
... Yeah. Nobody has, they never had the occasion or need to do so again.
2nd one, again never had the occasion to do so again. I'd also like to bring up Vegeta BLOWING UP the Hyperbolic Time Chamber again, which is a much more impressive and large scale feat than the Vice Shout
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There's no need for a pocket dimension. Where was this ever mentioned? Even in the non-canon anime, Buuhan while in the actual universe used vice shout and affected every dimensional barrier in the universe.
Of course blowing something up > creating a hole between realms for travel. That's not even comparable.
Of course blowing something up > creating a hole between realms for travel. That's not even comparable.
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Vegeta blew up the RoSaT's surface, not the dimension itself, I believe, unless I'm misremembering. Blowing up a planet sized space time is High 3-A.
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Why hasn't anyone done it since?
Because the writers are idiots. Enough said. I already said to UMR that you can't use bad writing to justify an inference that's unintuitive. The reason why they haven't done it is the same reason why Frieza threw a blast at Toppo, noting it was planet level-- as if that was supposed to be impressive in-verse. Dyspo's praised for being faster than sound and light, like that is in any way impressive to beings who have been MFTL for arcs, faster than sound since the beginning of the series, and FTL for the majority of Z.
Everyone CAN do it, as in they have the POTENTIAL, meaning POSSIBLY. Along with the fact that keeps happening in Super. You continue to go against the actual, irrefutable and intuitive evidence posted by Kep here.
"It was outright implied to be a strength related ability.
Chapter: 493 (DBZ 299), P7.1 Context: Super Saiyan Gotenks and Piccolo fail to open up a dimensional hole like Boo did Piccolo: "It-it's no use…Not even so much as a needle-sized hole will open up…!" Piccolo and SSJ Gotenks can't even open a needle-sized hole
Chapter: 493 (DBZ 299), P9.2-3, P10.3-4 Context: right after Gotenks transforms into a Super Saiyan 3 Piccolo: "Wh-what's happened to yo-you…!?" Gotenks: "Don't ask me, I don't know. Hehhe~~eh, that freaked you out, didn't it!? But I'm super-duper strong!"
You're trying to say, "the fact that they haven't done it before means that there's more to Vice Shout, because otherwise they would have done it all the time." Except, well, whenever they were in dimensions like this, they broke them some other way. So the do it more than you think. And the writers don't do research. And you're trying to extrapolate something to be true when it flies in the face of all evidence because of a simple WIS inconsistency? How is your DENIAL actually correct and rational?
I'm sorry if that sounded harsh, but you don't make sense. At all.
Because the writers are idiots. Enough said. I already said to UMR that you can't use bad writing to justify an inference that's unintuitive. The reason why they haven't done it is the same reason why Frieza threw a blast at Toppo, noting it was planet level-- as if that was supposed to be impressive in-verse. Dyspo's praised for being faster than sound and light, like that is in any way impressive to beings who have been MFTL for arcs, faster than sound since the beginning of the series, and FTL for the majority of Z.
Everyone CAN do it, as in they have the POTENTIAL, meaning POSSIBLY. Along with the fact that keeps happening in Super. You continue to go against the actual, irrefutable and intuitive evidence posted by Kep here.
"It was outright implied to be a strength related ability.
Chapter: 493 (DBZ 299), P7.1 Context: Super Saiyan Gotenks and Piccolo fail to open up a dimensional hole like Boo did Piccolo: "It-it's no use…Not even so much as a needle-sized hole will open up…!" Piccolo and SSJ Gotenks can't even open a needle-sized hole
Chapter: 493 (DBZ 299), P9.2-3, P10.3-4 Context: right after Gotenks transforms into a Super Saiyan 3 Piccolo: "Wh-what's happened to yo-you…!?" Gotenks: "Don't ask me, I don't know. Hehhe~~eh, that freaked you out, didn't it!? But I'm super-duper strong!"
- he screams and opens up a big hole*
You're trying to say, "the fact that they haven't done it before means that there's more to Vice Shout, because otherwise they would have done it all the time." Except, well, whenever they were in dimensions like this, they broke them some other way. So the do it more than you think. And the writers don't do research. And you're trying to extrapolate something to be true when it flies in the face of all evidence because of a simple WIS inconsistency? How is your DENIAL actually correct and rational?
I'm sorry if that sounded harsh, but you don't make sense. At all.
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But, it is equivalency...
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