Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence

[RoggerReggor]

This exists since nearly a year.

I remember Zetsu also aims to work on a standard to characterize Battle Intelligence, though yes, he could not find a valid definition for something like Supergenius Battle Intelligence, and he has also paused his work on this. Though I am sure he will get back to it (and I will also try to help him with it, if he needs it of course), not sure how it will influence this thread, but I agree with the fact that there should be clear standards for Battle Intelligence, and it is something which all powerscalers both need and deserve.

 

[First_Witch]

I remember Zetsu also aims to work on a standard to characterize Battle Intelligence, though yes, he could not find a valid definition for something like Supergenius Battle Intelligence.

Another bloke I know tried the exact same thing and I will tell you and this Zetsu fella the same answer he got when he asked me: You will never be able to quantify combat skill under the intelligence ratings VSB uses unless combat skill is fundamentally established.

What is EG or even SG level combat skill when its not even established what constitutes combat skill, you feel me?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I remember Zetsu also aims to work on a standard to characterize Battle Intelligence, though yes, he could not find a valid definition for something like Supergenius Battle Intelligence, and he has also paused his work on this. Though I am sure he will get back to it (and I will also try to help him with it, if he needs it of course), not sure how it will influence this thread, but I agree with the fact that there should be clear standards for Battle Intelligence, and it is something which all powerscalers both need and deserve.

Me and Zefra are trying to find what could be the upper limit for Humans, We are researching for that

Though, Imo Bruce Lee is a good example of a genius, He has created a new martial arts which is a mix of a ton of martial arts

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

If you believe a staff thread would be more conductive since the thread is controversial, sure.

But only one person can comment and they'll be limited. So it won't be very long and once it's finished you won't be able to do much.

If this is what we are doing that is fine with me, but I am also ok with just letting staff vote at this point. At this point arguments have been given on both sides and this thread has become way too long.

Arguments for each of the qualifiers for an EG rating have been made and there isn't a consensus on them. Here are the points of EG how arguments stand as I understand it.

Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science - I think this is an agree from both sides. While there has been some back and forth on how in depth his knowledge is, I haven't seen any claims for him not having this.

Vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits - Here the arguments were about Ayanokouji surpassing his instructors in each of their fields and the instructors being geniuses in their specific areas. It is also from Suzukake, the creator of the WR curriculum, describing the beta curriculum as in an entirely different dimension to the standard 10 levels and the level 6 curriculum being the limit of human development with every student dropping out from that point up. The counterarguments have been focused on Ayanokouji not actually having more knowledge than his instructors and being PHD/professor level only in those subjects. They have also argued against the scans which claim level 6 is the human limit.

At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology - Here there is agreement that Ayanokouji doesn't meet this.

Executing complex strategies even under high pressure - Here I think there is mostly agreement on this although there is disagreement on how "impressive" his strategies are. Multiple examples such as his X Strategy, Island Strategy, Paper Shuffle, and Knife Strategy have all been discussed. There isn't a case to be made that Ayanokouji doesn't employ complex strategies but the level of "high pressure" has been debated. Knife Strategy is the most prominent one where Ayanokouji came to the conclusion after seeing Housen pull out the knife and how he was holding it that allowing himself to be stabbed is the best course of action.

Outperforming supercomputers, the ability to perform extremely advanced thought processes such as calculations and multitasking - The most highly contested EG point of all of them. The arguments surround Ayanokouji's chess feat where the arguments are about him making a move better than the professionals and the chess engines Tsukishiro was using could come up with. The arguments were about the level of calculation needed for this. The counterarguments were claiming that doing this is possible IRL and since it was only 1 move it doesn't qualify as outperforming supercomputers. While the arguments for it discuss how his ability to find a better move than a team of professionals with multiple chess engines even once is noteworthy. Additionally, since this move was part of a series of move Ayanokouji had calculated in advance, it means his calculations to find that move needed to exceed the engines since the engine didn't see that move in its own calculation.

There is also debate over Ayanokouji's memory recall feats with the counterarguments being that these feats don't even exist. Given Ayanokouji's perfect memory and multiple instances of showing that he can search through his memories, the argument is that during his meeting with Arisu when she says "White Room" Ayanokouji searches through all his memories for any notion of her and how she could know about him since he then confirms that he has never seen her before and isn't missing ANY memories of his past. This was supported by both the scan from Y2V11 where Ayanokouji mentioned looking back across his school life to confirm Tsubaki had no reason to resent him, and how V0 is just a complete retelling of his past from memory. However the counterarguments claim that the feat in Y1V5 with Arisu doesn't require Ayanokouji to search through his memories and is not a valid feat.

Accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations - This has been debated around the scan where Ayanokouji mentioned his ability to consider all the possibilities of a situation and then can calculate how events will unfold. He mentions specifically that he "doesn't see the future" and he has no form of actual precog but his predictions stem from his analysis of variables and then intelligence based predictions/calculation. Some of his specific perditions have been debated such as the the Y1V6 meeting where he predicted the words, actions, and interactions of how an entire conversation of 7 people would unfold. This has been challenged on the basis of whether it is a "mathematical calculation based prediction". His prediction during the Unanimous voting exam has been discussed based on his prearranged strategy to use Kei at a certain point of the exam. This has been challenged based on asking what Ayanokouji specifically predicted when he gave Kei these instructions. During discussion on this feat it was noted that the exam was introduced just the day before it happened.

Scans have been provided in the thread already for each of the feats listed here, but I can find them again if they got lost in the thread. (Honestly likely)

So since arguments will be pretty much unchanged if we continue I am fine having staff just vote, but like I said if the decision is just to make this staff only with a few people I will be fine with that too.

@RoggerReggor
@MCH2

Did I miss any of the main points that have been discussed in the thread so far? I have intentionally not mentioned BIQ since that was a derail from the original thread anyway. Ayanokouji never had a seperate Combat EG rating to begin with, it just reflected his Intelligence tier.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Not separating BIQ would definitely work in your favor, since his BIQ is never surpassing his Gen IQ.

 

[MCH2]

What’s even the point of dropping a huge argument and then saying ok I am fine letting staff decide? You’ve already went through the criteria before, more than twice. RoggerRogger already had responded and even mentioned a strategy, something that wasn’t mentioned before. This isn’t a competition to determine who gets the last say, nor is it a debate, it should have been a discussion not about stretching Ayanokouji’s ability to reach EG but about working towards a consensus.

Unfortunately and nonetheless, somethings can’t just be left unaddressed.

Additionally, since this move was part of a series of move Ayanokouji had calculated in advance, it means his calculations to find that move needed to exceed the engines since the engine didn't see that move in its own calculation.

For example this is something you just inserted now. Just letting it slide and hoping it goes uncontested.
This was wrong. I just haven’t seen it before.

I will simply correct it by simply quoting the source material.

“Through the next two, three moves that I made, I felt the game veer off from the path I had envisioned. Then…before I knew it, I’d been cornered. I had been lured into walking down Sakayanagi’s path to victory, without even realizing it. The tides had turned so many times during this game, but now, I fell silent once again.”

Checkmate, via sacrificing the queen. It was what you could call the ultimate last resort, where you sacrificed your queen, the strongest piece. When pulled off successfully, it was an exceptional play that led to victory. But it was risky, and if it failed, your defeat would be imminent. It was the move I had decided to make at the eleventh hour, when I had been completely backed into a corner.

The chess Game is literally two things:
1) Ayanokouji is at least an IM, likely a mid - high GM
2) According to a human, Ayanokouji made a single better move than a group of professionals who had access to an engine. As many said, this has been done before…..

Even your assertion that the engine didn’t see the move is unsupported. We don’t know but the most likely scenario is that the engine thought another move was better. If it didn’t see it it’s a bad low depth engine.

And let’s hypothetically accept what you said nonetheless, Does this mean Arisu Sakayanagi is an EG as well? She’s his equal in chess, as admitted by her and him and as shown in their match as well. You will say no, but that’s simply because squeezing thin air out of this chess match serves only to inflate Ayanokouji. Thus even the statement of Ayanokouji about them being equal in chess has to be discarded or dismissed.

This is what I’ve been dealing with for the whole thread. One embellishment or wank after another, and obviously OP can’t spot such a slight of hand if OP hasn’t read the material and the profile doesn’t accurately describe basically anything can they?

 

[MCH2]

I kindly ask staff to lock this thread, look at the below profile and make their own judgement. This is basically my limit. @Qawsedf234 @UchihaSlayer96 @First_Witch @Phoenks

Both sides have agreed to this method of resolving it.

I ran this profile by Hunt before. And I posted it here before and people had inputs on it. This is more than a fair representation of his ability. I will accept quite literally any judgement you make on the matter. Genius, At least Genius, At least Genius possibly Extraordinary Genius, Extraordinary Genius.

EG side wants EG,
G side is fine with “At least Genius” at the absolute most.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/downgrading-ayanokoujis-intelligence.171740/post-6725941

 

[Phoenks]

@Qawsedf234 @UchihaSlayer96

Do you know of other staff that can evaluate this? Please, call them here if you do.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

What’s even the point of dropping a huge argument and then saying ok I am fine letting staff decide? You’ve already went through the criteria before, more than twice. RoggerRogger already had responded and even mentioned a strategy, something that wasn’t mentioned before. This isn’t a competition to determine who gets the last say, nor is it a debate, it should have been a discussion not about stretching Ayanokouji’s ability to reach EG but about working towards a consensus.

I was summarizing the arguments as I understand them since this thread has derailed and become way longer than expected. I

For example this is something you just inserted now. Just letting it slide and hoping it goes uncontested.

I will simply debunk your blatant falsehood by simply quoting the source material.

Bro, like I said before this thread has gotten so long you missed the fact that I DIDN'T just add this now. I said it over 10 pages ago. I appreciate you trying to undermine my argument just accusing me of just adding something when that isn't the case.

The reason these are important to consider is because it isn't the case for Ayanokouji's move. The position was just in the course of a game, not a chess puzzle. Furthermore, his move wasn't designed to confuse an engine as he didn't even know an engine was being used until after the game ended. It is also important to point out that as seen in the LN, Ayanokouji was calculating lines and planning moves in advance during this stage of the game. So he made calculations about his moves leading to a move the engine didn't find it its calculation. This is why the feat is impressive in terms of his intelligence.

And lets run with your blatant falsehood. Does this mean Arisu Sakayanagi is an EG as well? She’s his equal in chess, as admitted by her and him and as shown in their match as well. You will say no, but that’s simply because squeezing thin air out of this chess match serves only to inflate Ayanokouji. Thus even the statement of Ayanokouji about them being equal in chess has to be discarded or dismissed.

This is what I’ve been dealing with for the whole thread. One embellishment or wank after another, and obviously OP can’t spot such a slight of hand if OP hasn’t read the material and the profile doesn’t accurately describe basically anything can they?

Not a blatant falsehood, you dropped in LN text without explaining and then just claim that it debunks my point. "The game veering off his path" is talking about Tsukishiro changing his moves. You also ignored that right before this moment Ayanokouji took several minutes of his dwindling time to calculate his moves and proceed to not mention that. (Now who is trying to use people's lack of LN knowledge to slip things by?) I don't appreciate the accusations you are just throwing and I know this thread has become heated but that is un called for.

After Tsuki was changing his moves he calculated a new line which led to victory. This is what he was talking about in the second quote you added. He came up with this in the final moments of the game.

This is what I’ve been dealing with for the whole thread. One embellishment or wank after another, and obviously OP can’t spot such a slight of hand if OP hasn’t read the material and the profile doesn’t accurately describe basically anything can they?

No, just because you don't believe in his memory recall for some reason that doesn't warrant you calling everything embellishment. That coupled with you trying to accuse me of lying about the LN when you were the one who ignored him just before where you quoted saying he is doing exactly what I said. And saying I just tried to add this now when I added it days ago.

 

[MCH2]

Bro, like I said before this thread has gotten so long you missed the fact that I DIDN'T just add this now. I said it over 10 pages ago.

I apologize for not seeing that you posted the winning line before. I hadn’t seen it before. My apologies sincerely. I shouldn’t have alluded to any wrongdoing; I just ended up airing my own frustrations.

While I still stand with what I originally said, I will discuss this argument with huntsman privately as to avoid arguing here any further.

I kindly reiterate my earlier proposal.
https://vsbattles.com/threads/downgrading-ayanokoujis-intelligence.171740/post-6729651

 

[RoggerReggor]

Another bloke I know tried the exact same thing and I will tell you and this Zetsu fella the same answer he got when he asked me: You will never be able to quantify combat skill under the intelligence ratings VSB uses unless combat skill is fundamentally established.

What is EG or even SG level combat skill when its not even established what constitutes combat skill, you feel me?

True. Combat skill WILL NEED to get fundamentally established then.

Not separating BIQ would definitely work in your favor, since his BIQ is never surpassing his Gen IQ.

I am going to work on improving his BIQ stats, or at least the ratings with it, I mean, I do think that his feats are near the level of an E.G. and even gave my thoughts on that, though Fezzih said that he will work on an arguments' response for that.

At this point, I am in favor of Huntsman and MCH2 debating it out in Discord with their own judge (since I am pretty sure both being Discord debaters would not be under the pressure of completing it fast and would not have to restrict their messages), and just tell the thread attendees the result and consensus they reached, this is only about the Chess feat however.

It is important to note that both Huntsman and PMFT (and presumably others as well) have publicly announced the circular nature of the document made by Farhen and had themselves shared a 6 pages document, which according to them and a major part of the intelligence scalers, brought more criticism to the chess document than other documents which were 10s of pages long with extreme nitpicks with both the feat and history instances.

If it is favorable, then I don't think ditching the chess feats till their analysis is completed is not the worst thing. I think Memory Recollection as a Processing Speed feat is both less uncontroversial and much more canon and exemplary.

 

[DaReaperMan]

True. Combat skill WILL NEED to get fundamentally established then.

Bonjour.

Establishing combat skill requirements

Lonkitt's Suggestion on page 5 is currently what the goal is I will preface this thread by saying two things: what I write here is not final, and can be argued with, disagreed with, etc. Before this can go live, at least a one example must be listed for all ratings. Animalistic: With only...

vsbattles.com

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

At this point, I am in favor of Huntsman and MCH2 debating it out in Discord

This was just related to the chess feat, not overall intelligence rating to be clear.

 

[Phoenks]

Super Bump.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Or as I was trying to do, ask Qawsedf to make this staff only.

 

[Phoenks]

lets be real here. i dont think any staff will come here with 16 pages. just restart it in a staff thread with all the new info

I mean I have @Qawsedf234 and @UchihaSlayer96 . I really need those two to come to a final conclusion. Then, this thread will be finished. That's all it takes.

 

[HelloThere1089]

I mean I have @Qawsedf234 and @UchihaSlayer96 . I really need those two to come to a final conclusion. Then, this thread will be finished. That's all it takes.

You are an admin of FC/OC right? Do you have pinging rights across the board or just FC/OC.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I mean I have @Qawsedf234 and @UchihaSlayer96 . I really need those two to come to a final conclusion. Then, this thread will be finished. That's all it takes.

Dont controversial topics need 3 staff votes? and well this is pretty..... But I guess getting an extra vote wouldnt be too hard with judgement of 2 staff already.

 

[Phoenks]

Is this even controversial? There are like 6x more agreements than disagreements.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Yeah, this 16 pages is also comprised of unescessary conversations, is not just people actually debating.

 

[wwereymy235]

Is this even controversial? There are like 6x more agreements than disagreements.

If this mattered then MGK would be outerversal by now.

 

[Phoenks]

Difference is no staff here have disagreed with the majority... so I don't think this is controversial.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

He knows about this thread but idk if he wants to participate

Dax would likely dogwalk the entire thread in like 5-10 messages and put BOR allegations on everyone and quit silently lmao.

I talked with the guy and it seems like he ain't coming.

Though yes, I would agree that a staff-only thread should be made. Especially when we have this:

This is wild, LMAO.


Anyways, it seems like we just need to wait for staffs to decide where to rate Ayanokoji. I think you could easily win (in the sense of having better and distinctively more convincing arguments) with PMFT debating here but it seems like he isn't coming so Ayanokoji will likely be back to Genius rating.

Wait for the staffs to decide.

 

[Phoenks]

Super duper bump. Also I find it really funny that there's this imaginary guy y'all have in your head that can apparently "easily win" this discussion.

@Qawsedf234 @UchihaSlayer96 Please, let me end this.

 

[DivineAura44]

Super duper bump. Also I find it really funny that there's this imaginary guy y'all have in your head that can apparently "easily win" this discussion.

@Qawsedf234 @UchihaSlayer96 Please, let me end this.

Don't end up eating your words, it's often not too pleasant.

 

[Phoenks]

Don't end up eating your words, it's often not too pleasant.

If you have some new arguments, then bring it. If not, then don't even bother responding to the thread.

 

[DivineAura44]

If you have some new arguments, then bring it. If not, then don't even bother responding to the thread.

I've said my piece, no one can say a warning wasn't given.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I love how this has gone on for 16 pages when it could've been applied and closed at 13

 

[Phoenks]

I love how this has gone on for 16 pages when it could've been applied and closed at 13

Because every time we were getting close the Ayanokouji supporters copy pasted their previous arguments again, artificially extending this debate and stone-walling the thread.

Now there is this corny guy talking about some "I gave you a warning... Don't end up eating your own words. " I wonder if he will actually post an argument or just keep hyping himself up. Bro thinks he is Ayanokouji.

Shit's crazy.

Anyway I hope he doesn't cause I guarantee it'll just be the same stuff all over again.

 

[Worthless]

If even the Beta Circculum argument, which literally aligns with the site standards didn’t convince them, then I don’t think anything else will.
No matter what one said, it won’t matter.

 

[Phoenks]

If even the Beta Circculum argument, which literally aligns with the site standards didn’t convince them, then I don’t think anything else will.
No matter what one said, it won’t matter.

"literally aligns with site standards"

Except it literally doesn't. It just scales arbitrarily above a curriculum that is too difficult for gifted kids to handle. At best you could grant Ayanokouji Ph.D level academics in multiple fields.

But merely being a polymath would not qualify for E.G.

Would you stop? Nothing you've said on this thread has ever been of substance. You just complain instead of arguing your beliefs. Your presence here has truly been worthless.

 

[Worthless]

"literally aligns with site standards"

Except it literally doesn't. It just scales arbitrarily above a curriculum that is too difficult for gifted kids to handle. At best you could grant Ayanokouji Ph.D level academics in multiple fields.

Except It’s referring to human development in general and not just to the kids. Even if we limit the statement to only those children, it only makes him more impressive for vastly surpassing the upper limitations of those gifted children.

But merely being a polymath would not qualify for E.G.

And for the 100th time, it’s not just a mere polymath, as they have already explained.

You just complain instead of arguing your beliefs.

It makes one realize their own naivety

 

[AyeZ2]

This is getting slightly toxic

 

[Phoenks]

Except It’s referring to human development in general and not just to the kids. Even if we limit the statement to only those children, it only makes him more impressive for vastly surpassing the upper limitations of those gifted children.

It literally can't be referring to human development in general if humans devised the curriculum. You are saying humans made an academic curriculum that surpasses human academics. That doesn't make any logical sense and requires you to ignore the context.

And for the 100th time, it’s not just a mere polymath, as they have already explained.

Except it is and there's no reason nor evidence to prove otherwise.

 

[Vzearr]

I love how this has gone on for 16 pages when it could've been applied and closed at 13

Didn’t Qawsedf say baseline EG could be argued? Uchiha only read the OP and not the arguments bought up by the supporters, which is fine, I just feel like his vote would matter less in that case as the supporters seemingly added more context to the feats displayed by Ayanokouji. Perhaps I’m wrong though, as I also cannot be bothered to read 16 pages of argument.​

Note: I’m on my iPad and for some reason I can’t unbold my text, apologies for that.

 

[Tomfer]

Perhaps I’m wrong though, as I also cannot be bothered to read 16 pages of argument.

Summaries were posted in page 12-13, if you wish.

Note: I’m on my iPad and for some reason I can’t unbold my text, apologies for that.

Lmao.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Didn’t Qawsedf say baseline EG could be argued? Uchiha only read the OP and not the arguments bought up by the supporters, which is fine, I just feel like his vote would matter less in that case as the supporters seemingly added more context to the feats displayed by Ayanokouji. Perhaps I’m wrong though, as I also cannot be bothered to read 16 pages of argument.​

I dunno, I just feel like we could be over with this long ass thread lol

Note: I’m on my iPad and for some reason I can’t unbold my text, apologies for that.

As someone who also uses Tablet a lot, use the coding section for taking care of that, AKA the [ ] part of the bar

 

[Rayfire]

This is getting slightly toxic

"Slightly"

 

[Worthless]

It literally can't be referring to human development in general if humans devised the curriculum. You are saying humans made an academic curriculum that surpasses human academics. That doesn't make any logical sense and requires you to ignore the context.

I love how you talk about ignoring context when it refers to the upper limitations of what gifted individuals can learn, be taught, absorb, remember, and endure across various fields

Except it is and there's no reason nor evidence to prove otherwise.

I don't think any words could really convince you anyway when you genuinely believe that achieving all of that at such a young age is not impressive, that it's gifted at most.

 

[Phoenks]

I love how you talk about ignoring context when it refers to the upper limitations of what gifted individuals can learn, be taught, absorb, remember, and endure across various fields

Okay, so you agree with my point that it is the limit of gifted students, not the limit of humanity as a whole.

Thanks for deconstructing your own point and agreeing with mine, I guess.

I don't think any words could really convince you anyway when you genuinely believe that achieving all of that at such a young age is not impressive, that it's gifted at most.

I am arguing that Ayanokouji is genius, not gifted. I dropped that a while ago.