Dota 2 Discussion Thread

[Shmooply]

clearly the solution is to just make everyone low 2-C

 

[StretchSebe]

I have a feeling that the likes of FV and Elder Titan aren't supposed to be in the current tiers we put them in because they have forms in the material plane, it's strange that ET is AE1 yet he's literally a cow man in the flesh which should make him AE2 (his true self when he isn't split being AE1 instead), Phoenix is somehow High 4-C by scaling to the very thing that kills him plus the sun in his Supernova isn't big as a real star since it's literally just him folding his wings around himself and whoever he holds on to, Leshrac and every other character is High 4-C from scaling to Phoenix's Supernova which is wrong for reasons previously said and they have no feats on that level. Not trying to downgrade stuff, but we should make a distinction between the true self of a cosmic hero in an extradimensional plane and their physical avatar on the material plane.

What does AE1 and 2 mean?

As for Phoenix, I think it is because they are among the strongest elementals having a direct tie to one of the fundamentals, and actually capable of creating supernovas:

"Alone across an untouched darkness gleamed the Keeper's first sun, a singular point of conscious light fated to spread warmth into the empty void. Through aeons beyond count, this blinding beacon set to coalescing its incalculable energy before bursting forth the cataclysmic flare of supernova. From this inferno raced new beacons, star progeny identical to its parent, who journeyed an unlit ocean and settled in constellatory array. In time, they too would be made to propagate through supernova flame. So would this dazzling cycle of birth and rebirth repeat until all skies hewn of Titan toil deigned to twinkle and shine.

By this ageless crucible the star that mortals would come to call Phoenix collapsed into being, and like its ancestors was thrust into an endless cosmos to find a place among its stellar brethren. Yet curiosity toward that which the dimming elders comfort in the darkness consumed the fledgling, and so over long cycles it inquired and studied. It learned that among worlds both whole and broken would soon stir a nexus of remarkable variety locked in an enduring conflict of cosmic consequence, a plane which would find itself in need of more influence than a dying sun's distant rays could provide. Thus this infant son of suns took terrestrial form, eagerly travelling to shine its warmth upon those who may need it most, and perhaps seize upon its solar destiny."

Of course, in game, ain't no way its supernova would be High 4-C given size, but lore wise it seems fair. Also idk how well we could use most in game attacks and stuff anyways given all heroes seem (relatively) equalized by the ancients. Ain't no way shadow shaman - a literal con-man magician - would be able to remotely fight on the level of someone like invoker if they weren't lmao. I digress though:

Looking into profiles on the verse page with more scrutiny, there definitely seems to be a need for a lot more content revision (the example of all elementals scaling to Phoenix being a good example). Overall, I agree that work needs to be done to better distinguish and substantiate characters and their tiering.

I just think that the whole Reaver scaling thing is wrong, heroes only gain the strength to tear down mountains when they wield it, much like how you get the strength bonus only when you buy it and put it in your inventory, they shouldn't be 8-A or 7-A in base.

I've already been through all the Artifact and Underlords stuff, there's not much in terms of feats due to the ambiguity and reliance on written lore with no cinematics/comics to backup still images in the card art. I'd rather work on the Dragon's Blood stuff tbh, it's much easier

This is all fair too. I didn't know what the mountain thing was referring to. I'd like to still comb through Artifact cards, as I'm sure we could find some supporting, or additional information about the power of certain characters

Speaking of Ancients, they could possibly be 2-A but I'm tripping right now since it's late, I'll probably double check what I'm saying here

Comics are a good source for the stuff about ancients.

Two that come to mind are "Are we heroes yet?" and The Sundered Moon, of which the latter has the information coming from Zet themself.

 

[StretchSebe]

Actually, I'll probably go through comics later today for things pertaining to lore. Skimming through the enigma one already had quite a bit to unpack. Can still leave the Ancients stuff to you if you'd like.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

What does AE1 and 2 mean?

As for Phoenix, I think it is because they are among the strongest elementals having a direct tie to one of the fundamentals, and actually capable of creating supernovas:

Of course, in game, ain't no way its supernova would be High 4-C given size, but lore wise it seems fair. Also idk how well we could use most in game attacks and stuff anyways given all heroes seem (relatively) equalized by the ancients. Ain't no way shadow shaman - a literal con-man magician - would be able to remotely fight on the level of someone like invoker if they weren't lmao. I digress though:

Looking into profiles on the verse page with more scrutiny, there definitely seems to be a need for a lot more content revision (the example of all elementals scaling to Phoenix being a good example). Overall, I agree that work needs to be done to better distinguish and substantiate characters and their tiering.


This is all fair too. I didn't know what the mountain thing was referring to. I'd like to still comb through Artifact cards, as I'm sure we could find some supporting, or additional information about the power of certain characters

Comics are a good source for the stuff about ancients.

Two that come to mind are "Are we heroes yet?" and The Sundered Moon, of which the latter has the information coming from Zet themself.

Actually, I'll probably go through comics later today for things pertaining to lore. Skimming through the enigma one already had quite a bit to unpack. Can still leave the Ancients stuff to you if you'd like.

Stars in Dota 2 make supernovae when they're about to die and collapse in on themselves. I'm just saying that their AP can scale to the specific act of making a supernova but their other physical stats shouldn't be High 4-C

There's some good feats of Axe destroying huge wood gates in a single stroke and I do recall him breaking pillars in the comic where he fights the Zongom (those lizard men armies) forgot what the name of the comic was but it's definitely still up

Will post Ancients stuff later

 

[StretchSebe]

So idk how to actually post images of scans here (it always asks for urls?), but a general run down of the comics:

• Legion Commander, Anti-Mage + Windranger, and Monkey King have some decent comics with pretty standard 'superhuman' feats and lore happenings.
• Axe's comic is really good. Has some decent feats I'd like to calc in his story too. Got a lot to support his stamina being peak-superhuman, and tangentially, he's already considered above average intelligence on his profile, but his character and above average intelligence is really fleshed out and expanded upon in his comic as he bounces off Goodkind.
• Winter Wyvern threatens Crystal Maiden with her power as a dragon, and Crystal Maiden casually asserts that she could easily kill her in a one on one, asking her to repeat the threat because she was 'thinking of all the dragons I've killed.' She then takes a bribe of Winter Wyvern's artifacts, including her most powerful artifact in exchange for letting the dragon remain in her domain. Damn. The Arcana doesn't describe this power, but still interesting to note.
• Oracle comic shows that Oracle is constantly seeing many timelines, and even though Phantom Assassin arrives to kill him, he convinces her to kill his enemies. On a whim he creates and gives her the Manifold Paradox. True to name, it can tear the fabric of reality, and can attack targets in a different timeline:

"With a raspy cackle, the elder smith Craler swung the sword that his family had spent eleven generations to fold and forge. So sharp it was that, with a sound like tearing fabric, a rip in reality tore open. Through this rip, Craler recognized himself from moments before, holding aloft the very same coveted blade. Then, in a fit of greed and madness, he cut this earlier self down to seize the twin sword as his own. Too late, however, Craler felt a familiar wound, and was suddenly filled with the memory of being cut down himself..."

• Enigma's comic is some basic Fundamental stuff. Comes from another dimension through a portal, an alchemist (Cedric) 'traps' and 'depowers' them to try and harness or learn how to attain godhood through Enigma, reveals bracers 'capable of manipulating the fabric of spacetime itself,' then Enigma completely clowns the alchemist. They whisper a secret that drives Cedric crazy, then ask Cedric 'You wanted to be me?' converts them to one of their summons by giving them 'the barest glimpse of what that means', then opens a portal to the war of the ancients.

 

[StretchSebe]

Stars in Dota 2 make supernovae when they're about to die and collapse in on themselves. I'm just saying that their AP can scale to the specific act of making a supernova but their other physical stats shouldn't be High 4-C

Oh, fair. Still, what's AE1 and AE2 stand for or mean?

Will post Ancients stuff later

Yeah, going through the comics and the Ancient stuff was better than I remembered too.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Oh, fair. Still, what's AE1 and AE2 stand for or mean?

Yeah, going through the comics and the Ancient stuff was better than I remembered too.

My b, AE1 and 2 means Type 1 Abstract Existence and Type 2 Abstract Existence. Type 1 is when you exist as an abstraction itself, like a concept, and Type 2 is when you're just an avatar of an abstraction.

What did you find?

 

[StretchSebe]

My b, AE1 and 2 means Type 1 Abstract Existence and Type 2 Abstract Existence. Type 1 is when you exist as an abstraction itself, like a concept, and Type 2 is when you're just an avatar of an abstraction.

Oooooooh got it.

What did you find?

Most of the comic finds I listed above already, but if you mean about the ancients, tl;dr would be

• Zet tells Zeus the Ancients existed and fought 'In the world before your world,' them named Diruulth and Radinthul. It was 'The Self' (Zet) and 'the others' (the ancients). They talk of 'The Self' being more powerful: "Diruulth and Radinthul of the others were at war. They became too powerful. The Self ended the war. Trapped them in a Prison." They also describe those fighting in the war of the ancients as lesser creatures (including the gods and fundamentals), and say "Should either win, their power would end both our worlds." Zet casually regrants Zeus full godhood from half godhood after this.
• The secret shop keeper describes the Mad Moon, the two ancients falling to earth, nemesis stones being used to make the Demon Edge. He says as it passes between hands that within it: 'For in one weapon, warring Ancients vie... And lesser mortals cannot wield such power!' As the two adventurers of the comic seek out it and accidently fuse it in a fight, they are temporarily morphed into creeps, with plenty more creeps coming to fight on either side over the demon edge. Sithil remains morphed into a radiant creep, while his accompanying adventurer Quirt actually manages to resist and change back to a human. He later gets petrified, and the demon edge ends up with the secret shop keeper. Weird bit of afterstory after that one, but that's a brief summary of the story 'Are we heroes yet?'

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Most of the comic finds I listed above already, but if you mean about the ancients, tl;dr would be

• Zet tells Zeus the Ancients existed 'In the world before your world,' them named Diruulth and Radinthul, and talks of 'The Self' being more powerful, or wagering to try and beat the both of them (The Self being Zet). Zet casually regrants Zeus full godhood from half godhood.
• The secret shop keeper describes the Mad Moon, the two ancients falling to earth, nemesis stones being used to make the Demon Edge. He says as it passes between hands that within it: 'For in one weapon, warring Ancients vie... And lesser mortals cannot wield such power!' As the two adventurers of the comic seek out it and accidently fuse it in a fight, they are temporarily morphed into creeps, with plenty more creeps coming to fight on either side over the demon edge. Sithil remains morphed into a radiant creep, while his accompanying adventurer Quirt actually manages to resist and change back to a human. He later gets petrified, and the demon edge ends up with the secret shop keeper. Weird bit of afterstory after that one, but that's a brief summary of the story 'Are we heroes yet?'

I've already read all of the comics btw, so here's what I have to say about this

• "the world before your world" sounds like a fancy way of saying "in the beginning" which makes sense since the ancients were born from the schism at the beginning of creation. AW doesn't grant him full godhood, he gives him a half of his powers back. I gave Zet fusionism/reconstruction for this feat
• hmm not much to say about are we heroes yet comic, other than the effects of even a relatively small shard of a nemesis stone

 

[StretchSebe]

I've already read all of the comics btw, so here's what I have to say about this

• "the world before your world" sounds like a fancy way of saying "in the beginning" which makes sense since the ancients were born from the schism at the beginning of creation. AW doesn't grant him full godhood, he gives him a half of his powers back. I gave Zet fusionism/reconstruction for this feat
• hmm not much to say about are we heroes yet comic, other than the effects of even a relatively small shard of a nemesis stone

forum 404'd. Weird. Anyways though, I think it might mean before time given Zet clarifies they were before even the gods, and the 'true forms' of the ancients (in my opinion) look very much like a case of 'cosmic other.' Ik superpower wiki is tabuu on VSBW for no good reason, but it's a good way of putting how I interpreted them. Then again, Zet could trap them in the mad moon, so idk. They could be of 'this' universe of Dota 2.

 

[StretchSebe]

Insomnia hours. Gonna calc some of the axe comic stuff tomorrow. I feel we off to a good start.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Insomnia hours. Gonna calc some of the axe comic stuff tomorrow. I feel we off to a good start.

Thank you, I'd also appreciate calcing some stuff from Dragon's Blood, even though it's not the ideal Dota film that I wanted, they still deserve profiles. They have some interesting stuff and up to 2-A cosmology with god tiers scaling to such stuff

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Okay maybe the Ancients aren't 2-A but I do know some 2-A characters. There's Void Spirit in his true form who embodies the void which is implied to be one and the same with the astral plane itself and according to the Aghanim events the astral plane is where the infinite multiverse is. So putting two and two together, Void Spirit is 2-A. Elder Titan in his whole form might be 2-A or even beyond that since the Dota 2 world's creation--which split his world of wholeness into many halves that continue to splinter and divide the material and spiritual planes (which includes the astral plane which is 2-A like I said) up until the modern era--also created the multiverse. That's all I can think of at the top of my head

Speaking of 2-A, there's very few characters in Dragon's Blood with this rating, I believe only the Eldwurms and the Worldwyrm can earn this. Anyone else can only be 2-A in AP and no other stats when they use the Forge, which is capable of fusing the infinite multiverse into one universe (simultaneously "destroying" the multiverse and everyone in it) when Invoker created Experiment 12,403, destroying the multiverse as Invoker has done countless times since the Forge must destroy the previous world before making a new one, and it can even restore the infinite multiverse when Mirana undid Invoker's final reality by restoring the reality that came before the Invoker's before he used the Forge which has the infinitely splintering realities.

 

[StretchSebe]

Okay maybe the Ancients aren't 2-A but I do know some 2-A characters. There's Void Spirit in his true form who embodies the void which is implied to be one and the same with the astral plane itself and according to the Aghanim events the astral plane is where the infinite multiverse is. So putting two and two together, Void Spirit is 2-A. Elder Titan in his whole form might be 2-A or even beyond that since the Dota 2 world's creation--which split his world of wholeness into many halves that continue to splinter and divide the material and spiritual planes (which includes the astral plane which is 2-A like I said) up until the modern era--also created the multiverse. That's all I can think of at the top of my head

Morning: I still think there could be a case for the Ancients being multiversal fra and due to the fact that they seem to be among the highest powers of the verse outside some exceptions. Those exceptions being in specific characters like you mention. Void Spirit is a good example of one of those exceptions, seeming to be able to see all else from the void and getting involved in the material plane in order to exert their influence over the war. So does Faceless Void. They both exist in the void, and can have major influence over entire timelines (again referring back to the Artifact card stating FV could obliterate a timeline). If I remember correctly too, Weaver is technically outside everything else too (albeit not in the void) being just one of many in a species that literally 'weaves' together and apart timelines. Then there's Zet, who already beat the ancients before in their more primeval forms, and trapped them in the mad moon, though it seems 'The Self' has been falling behind the ancients' power a bit if the Sundred Moon comic is anything to go by.

Other characters would probably be close too. Aghanim seems wildly powerful having been scattered across time and space and putting himself back together. Elder Titan as you also mention existed before the world, and made the innately higher-plane Fundamentals. Said fundamentals likely are not among the top tier, but being extradimensional and the fact that 'They exist across all of the universe's planes of existence at once and thus they are omnipresent forces' should also grant them quite a nice tiering or be evidence for higher tiered characters being even higher in tier than 2-A

Speaking of 2-A, there's very few characters in Dragon's Blood with this rating, I believe only the Eldwurms and the Worldwyrm can earn this. Anyone else can only be 2-A in AP and no other stats when they use the Forge, which is capable of fusing the infinite multiverse into one universe (simultaneously "destroying" the multiverse and everyone in it) when Invoker created Experiment 12,403, destroying the multiverse as Invoker has done countless times since the Forge must destroy the previous world before making a new one, and it can even restore the infinite multiverse when Mirana undid Invoker's final reality by restoring the reality that came before the Invoker's before he used the Forge which has the infinitely splintering realities.

Hoo boy, if the Eldwurms reach that, I'm really scared of CM now lmao.

Seriously though, I have yet to watch or learn anything about Dragon's Blood other than it stars Dragon Knight and Marci came from it. Seems cool, but I know next to nothing about/from it. This definitely sounds like a big upscale for Invoker at least.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Morning: I still think there could be a case for the Ancients being multiversal fra and due to the fact that they seem to be among the highest powers of the verse outside some exceptions. Those exceptions being in specific characters like you mention. Void Spirit is a good example of one of those exceptions, seeming to be able to see all else from the void and getting involved in the material plane in order to exert their influence over the war. So does Faceless Void. They both exist in the void, and can have major influence over entire timelines (again referring back to the Artifact card stating FV could obliterate a timeline). If I remember correctly too, Weaver is technically outside everything else too (albeit not in the void) being just one of many in a species that literally 'weaves' together and apart timelines. Then there's Zet, who already beat the ancients before in their more primeval forms, and trapped them in the mad moon, though it seems 'The Self' has been falling behind the ancients' power a bit if the Sundred Moon comic is anything to go by.

Other characters would probably be close too. Aghanim seems wildly powerful having been scattered across time and space and putting himself back together. Elder Titan as you also mention existed before the world, and made the innately higher-plane Fundamentals. Said fundamentals likely are not among the top tier, but being extradimensional and the fact that 'They exist across all of the universe's planes of existence at once and thus they are omnipresent forces' should also grant them quite a nice tiering or be evidence for higher tiered characters being even higher in tier than 2-A


Hoo boy, if the Eldwurms reach that, I'm really scared of CM now lmao.

Seriously though, I have yet to watch or learn anything about Dragon's Blood other than it stars Dragon Knight and Marci came from it. Seems cool, but I know next to nothing about/from it. This definitely sounds like a big upscale for Invoker at least.

Yeah I think Faceless Void counts too, even moreso when he gains Clasz's power in his arcana. Aghanim has an interesting line where he says "With power from beyond the void!" so that could be vague support for higher than 2-A stuff. Not to mention his son Rubick can manipulate 4 dimensional space to achieve what could possibly be reality warping in one of his immortal cosmetic's lore

Invoker and Mirana are only 2-A in AP with the Forge, nothing else. DB Terrorblade might even be 2-A even though we never got to see him do his thing (spoilers)

 

[StretchSebe]

Yeah I think Faceless Void counts too, even moreso when he gains Clasz's power in his arcana. Aghanim has an interesting line where he says "With power from beyond the void!" so that could be vague support for higher than 2-A stuff. Not to mention his son Rubick can manipulate 4 dimensional space to achieve what could possibly be reality warping in one of his immortal cosmetic's lore

Invoker and Mirana are only 2-A in AP with the Forge, nothing else. DB Terrorblade might even be 2-A even though we never got to see him do his thing (spoilers)

Once I start and finish going through Artifact cards, I'll also go through arcanas and stuff in game.

As I said with the Oracle comic, he does just casually create the arcana weapon that allows PA to rip the fabric of reality, and attack enemies in her timeline and other timelines as well. Not saying that makes her 2-A or anything, though with this and what you mention about other cosmetics/arcana + the forge, it definitely seems like there's a lot of specific artifacts with immense hax for affecting and interacting with the spacetime of the game's universe in incredibly dangerous ways beyond just the beings capable of doing so on their own.

 

[StretchSebe]

Oh yeah, and those bracers mentioned in Enigma's comic. Seriously, how do I post scans?

 

[StretchSebe]

I was about to start calcing for Axe when I found...

I couldn't find a single height for him, or any characters in Dota 2 really for reference so I could even start the calcs.

Well shit.

 

[StretchSebe]

I have a feeling the answer would be no, but could I potentially use the height prescribed by the infamous mountain-reaver calc for Axe of 1.89275109 meters?

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

I have a feeling the answer would be no, but could I potentially use the height prescribed by the infamous mountain-reaver calc for Axe of 1.89275109 meters?

There's no stated height for any characters or even items to measure and scale from, so yes I guess it's fine to use that. It's not that infamous, I just disagree with it

Oh yeah, and those bracers mentioned in Enigma's comic. Seriously, how do I post scans?

You post photos here by linking to a page that's accepted in this forum where the image you want to post is in, so don't bother going through this inconvenient stuff. But if you still want, the least you can do is post in imgur and link it

 

[StretchSebe]

There's no stated height for any characters or even items to measure and scale from, so yes I guess it's fine to use that. It's not that infamous, I just disagree with it

Alright, 1.89 meters it is. Getting to work on it.

And yeah, I was being a bit facetious about it. I don't think that the quote on the item is inaccurate, but it being mountain level because of it is 'capable of tearing whole mountains down' definitely doesn't seem right. That is to say that I believe it could be durable enough for such, but obviously just wielding the item alone doesn't grant that power. Has to have someone also able to output that level of damage.

You post photos here by linking to a page that's accepted in this forum where the image you want to post is in, so don't bother going through this inconvenient stuff. But if you still want, the least you can do is post in imgur and link it

Ah, ok. I'll just continue to post most of the images to blogs and stuff then, as the scans I wanted to share were from the comics you can freely find online quite easily. Isn't imgur imploding or something?

 

[StretchSebe]

Axe needs a new calc

vsbattles.fandom.com

We still close to Small Building Level on the lower end of characters

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Axe needs a new calc

vsbattles.fandom.com

We still close to Small Building Level on the lower end of characters

Nice. 9-B+ is a good start for level 1 heroes

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

I just thought of something, most heroes who aren't cosmic level or just super strong in their base level (Earthshaker, Monkey King, etc.) might get a "Higher with items" tier simply because their stats can change with whatever item they're equipped with, like Reaver giving the strength to tear down mountains, Assault Cuirass giving the speed that's said to be a measure of Valora's old speed which used to allow her to travel the cosmos, and Butterfly's speed which is more than just a "mere change in perspective" coming from Faceless Void who sees time differently

Edit: btw I'd appreciate some calcs for Dragon's Blood, since it seems like we have calcs for the low tiered, mundane heroes and we can probably begin scaling and completing my profiles (Lifestealer, Bristleback, etc. come to mind when scaling to Axe's feat) I'd like some calcs for the characters of DB too

 

[StretchSebe]

I just thought of something, most heroes who aren't cosmic level or just super strong in their base level (Earthshaker, Monkey King, etc.) might get a "Higher with items" tier simply because their stats can change with whatever item they're equipped with, like Reaver giving the strength to tear down mountains, Assault Cuirass giving the speed that's said to be a measure of Valora's old speed which used to allow her to travel the cosmos, and Butterfly's speed which is more than just a "mere change in perspective" coming from Faceless Void who sees time differently

Edit: btw I'd appreciate some calcs for Dragon's Blood, since it seems like we have calcs for the low tiered, mundane heroes and we can probably begin scaling and completing my profiles (Lifestealer, Bristleback, etc. come to mind when scaling to Axe's feat) I'd like some calcs for the characters of DB too

Items definitely would make heroes higher tier, especially specific ones. Manifold Paradox OP. I may start to watch Dragon's Blood finally, and do some calcs for it. Would probably be at least a few days before I started, but still would be willing to help out there.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Items definitely would make heroes higher tier, especially specific ones. Manifold Paradox OP. I may start to watch Dragon's Blood finally, and do some calcs for it. Would probably be at least a few days before I started, but still would be willing to help out there.

Exactly

I think I'll compile it for you first after I deal with irl stuff, I already have a list in mind and you can check which ones can be calced

 

[StretchSebe]

Going to start an episode or two of Dota: Dragon's Blood tomorrow, but as a quickie I went through basics item descriptions. I found a good amount in favor of items buffing stats, and otherwise grant certain abilities/powers:

Iron Branch - A seemingly ordinary branch, its ironlike qualities are bestowed upon the bearer. (Evidence in favor of items bestowing abilities/power and buffs onto heroes. Don't know exactly how to extrapolate the ironlike qualities to durability and ap and all)

Quelling Blade - The axe of a fallen gnome, it allows you to effectively maneuver the forest. (Description suggests like the Iron Branch it bestows the ability to effectively chop trees easily, which iirc would be 9-B. Not an ap buff though, more specifically a durability bypass/negation for wood)

Gloves of Haste - A pair of magical gloves that seems to render weapons weightless. (lifting strength buff)

Belt of Strength - A valued accessory for improving vitality. (stamina buff)

Ogre Axe - You grow stronger just by holding it. (vague ap buff)

Blade of Aclarity - A long blade imbued with time magic. (weird time thing, but does kind of relate to the butterfly speed thing you mentioned as more than just a 'mere change in perspective.')

Cloak - A cloak made of a magical material that works to dispel any magic cast on it. (Magic resistance that works up to negation if you accept the 'dispel any magic cast on it')

Wind Lace and Boots of Speed - Hasten to battle on wind-touched heels. + Fleet footwear, increasing movement. (Travel speed buffs)

Talisman of Evasion - A necklace that allows you to anticipate enemy attacks. (Grants precognition for the evasion)

Eaglesong - Capturing the majestic call of an eagle, this mystical horn brings limitless dexterity to those who hear it. (Grants dexterity, but since the wiki doesn't recognize peak - absolute dexterity as abilities, it would be combat, perception, and reaction time buffs)

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Going to start an episode or two of Dota: Dragon's Blood tomorrow, but as a quickie I went through basics item descriptions. I found a good amount in favor of items buffing stats, and otherwise grant certain abilities/powers:

Iron Branch - A seemingly ordinary branch, its ironlike qualities are bestowed upon the bearer. (Evidence in favor of items bestowing abilities/power and buffs onto heroes. Don't know exactly how to extrapolate the ironlike qualities to durability and ap and all)

Quelling Blade - The axe of a fallen gnome, it allows you to effectively maneuver the forest. (Description suggests like the Iron Branch it bestows the ability to effectively chop trees easily, which iirc would be 9-B. Not an ap buff though, more specifically a durability bypass/negation for wood)

Gloves of Haste - A pair of magical gloves that seems to render weapons weightless. (lifting strength buff)

Belt of Strength - A valued accessory for improving vitality. (stamina buff)

Ogre Axe - You grow stronger just by holding it. (vague ap buff)

Blade of Aclarity - A long blade imbued with time magic. (weird time thing, but does kind of relate to the butterfly speed thing you mentioned as more than just a 'mere change in perspective.')

Cloak - A cloak made of a magical material that works to dispel any magic cast on it. (Magic resistance that works up to negation if you accept the 'dispel any magic cast on it')

Wind Lace and Boots of Speed - Hasten to battle on wind-touched heels. + Fleet footwear, increasing movement. (Travel speed buffs)

Talisman of Evasion - A necklace that allows you to anticipate enemy attacks. (Grants precognition for the evasion)

Eaglesong - Capturing the majestic call of an eagle, this mystical horn brings limitless dexterity to those who hear it. (Grants dexterity, but since the wiki doesn't recognize peak - absolute dexterity as abilities, it would be combat, perception, and reaction time buffs)

You can watch all three seasons on 1movies

Gloves of haste are density manipulation items. Cloak's magic resist works by nulling any magic cast on it, so it's resistance to magic via power null. Eaglesong may be a combat skill amp with the "limitless dexterity"

 

[Shmooply]

It does make me wonder how should we treat craftable items. Cloak protects you from magic by negating it, yet you need it to make Pipe of Insight, which protects you from magic by making barriers that reduce their damage greatly, so are we going to treat that as both Magic Nullification and Forcefield Creation, or just go with Forcefield Creation with maybe added Magic Resistance?

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

It does make me wonder how should we treat craftable items. Cloak protects you from magic by negating it, yet you need it to make Pipe of Insight, which protects you from magic by making barriers that reduce their damage greatly, so are we going to treat that as both Magic Nullification and Forcefield Creation, or just go with Forcefield Creation with maybe added Magic Resistance?

We could always check the lore of both items, not all gameplay stats are canon or acknowledged in canon like the heroes' voice lines

 

[Shmooply]

We could always check the lore of both items, not all gameplay stats are canon or acknowledged in canon like the heroes' voice lines

Fair enough.

On topic, should we give heroes resistance to Transmutation due to them being able to wield items? We're shown that items from the shop can do that to people, it's how some creeps are created. You could argue that the Ancients themselves prevent heroes from being affected by the corrupting effects of items, but we're shown that's not really the case because of characters like Axe.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Fair enough.

On topic, should we give heroes resistance to Transmutation due to them being able to wield items? We're shown that items from the shop can do that to people, it's how some creeps are created. You could argue that the Ancients themselves prevent heroes from being affected by the corrupting effects of items, but we're shown that's not really the case because of characters like Axe.

Not all items from the shop do that, it's because the item Quirt and Sithil tries to retrieve is made of the same material of the Ancients themselves, so ofc they are warped by the stone depending on their alignment/mental temperament. But yes you're right, the Heroes are so resistant that they hardly acknowledge the Ancients' importance and are completely immune to its influence, the Ancients are just a means to their ends, like Grimstroke and Arcana Jugg, and not the other way around

 

[Shmooply]

Not all items from the shop do that, it's because the item Quirt and Sithil tries to retrieve is made of the same material of the Ancients themselves

Said item can be bought by all heroes, and is a key compotent for some items, but we both already know that.

But yes you're right, the Heroes are so resistant that they hardly acknowledge the Ancients' importance and are completely immune to its influence, the Ancients are just a means to their ends, like Grimstroke and Arcana Jugg, and not the other way around

It's a weird case. Pretty much all the heroes went to the battleground (I genuinely do not remember if the map actually has a canon name) out of their own free will, and some of them do actually talk to the Ancients when they're told to move around, but they do so in a disgruntled manner and imply their influence is doing jack squat to them.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Said item can be bought by all heroes, and is a key compotent for some items, but we both already know that.

It's a weird case. Pretty much all the heroes went to the battleground (I genuinely do not remember if the map actually has a canon name) out of their own free will, and some of them do actually talk to the Ancients when they're told to move around, but they do so in a disgruntled manner and imply their influence is doing jack squat to them.

It gets confusing at this point, like what happens to Demon Edge when it's used to complete an item recipe. How does the Ancients get fused into a copy of Monkey King's staff?

The map doesn't have a canon name. Also I don't think those voicelines are meant for the Ancients, they just acknowledge the player, like Troll Warlord trying to kill you for being impatient with mana or cool downs. So the heroes still have their free will

 

[Shmooply]

ike Troll Warlord trying to kill you for being impatient with mana or cool downs.

Speaking of mana, we could use it as a Universal Energy System for the verse. We should probably apply some standards for this though, to prevent every item-boosted hero from getting things like Immeasurable LS due to them being capable of pushing Ex Machina wielders with Force Staff.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Speaking of mana, we could use it as a Universal Energy System for the verse. We should probably apply some standards for this though, to prevent every item-boosted hero from getting things like Immeasurable LS due to them being capable of pushing Ex Machina wielders with Force Staff.

Dunno about a UES that makes heroes who can do environmental destruction feats scale to these feats, but Dota 2 deserves a verse specific power page. Mana, ability cooldowns, spell lifesteal, etc. are canon and they need a page for that since heroes can get items exploiting this. Plus I think dota 2 has a magic system involving the void as a vital ingredient

The Ex Machina example is not a good one, it's a Sphere that has the "remains" of an ancient universe and not a whole universe

 

[StretchSebe]

It does make me wonder how should we treat craftable items. Cloak protects you from magic by negating it, yet you need it to make Pipe of Insight, which protects you from magic by making barriers that reduce their damage greatly, so are we going to treat that as both Magic Nullification and Forcefield Creation, or just go with Forcefield Creation with maybe added Magic Resistance?

I think forcefield could be added to pipe. Gonna go through the notable crafting items today too.

Speaking of mana, we could use it as a Universal Energy System for the verse. We should probably apply some standards for this though, to prevent every item-boosted hero from getting things like Immeasurable LS due to them being capable of pushing Ex Machina wielders with Force Staff.

I think I'd be in favor of mana being a universal system. Even Anti-Mage uses mana, to an extent. Void is weird, but I think can fit within it given those from it also use mana when in the material plane.

The Ex Machina example is not a good one, it's a Sphere that has the "remains" of an ancient universe and not a whole universe

Also yeah, being remains of a universe and small enough for a hero to hold downscales Ex Machina tremendously even if it does provide a lot of power in cd refreshing. Does contribute to multiverse stuff though along with items like Aghanim's shard/scepter referencing timelines, and this with universes of old.

It's a weird case. Pretty much all the heroes went to the battleground (I genuinely do not remember if the map actually has a canon name) out of their own free will, and some of them do actually talk to the Ancients when they're told to move around, but they do so in a disgruntled manner and imply their influence is doing jack squat to them.

There is definitely supernatural willpower on the part of the heroes.

Beyond Zet and comparably top tier characters obviously not being at the whim of the ancients due to being more powerful or of higher planes/dimensions compared to the ancients (or at least at their level), even average heroes like Axe show up for all kinds of personal reasons. Creeps seem legitimately compelled given their linear and consistent patterns in waves, and strict adherence to one or the other, but heroes are there because they want to be.

In addition to heroes seeming to have free will while fighting for either ancient, Omniknight thinks it is the Omniscience guiding them, and there are others who acknowledge other forces as being the one potentially guiding them. Troll Warlord is a good example, and Blood Seeker invokes The Flayed Twins too, but my favorite has to be Zeus when getting attacked simply saying 'Good god, man, I'm under attack!' Obviously Zeus is very full of himself, but he allegedly knows the Omniscience.

I love his casual reference to it as 'man.' Like he's partnered up with the Omniscience in a BR game lobby and asking where he is while taking fire lmao.

Anyways though, I think a lot of this does make sense even if in game mechanics are weird and always changing for balancing the many timelines that exist on that fateful day of the battle between the ancients

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

About the UES with mana, I don't think Dota 2 can have one. Heroes like Crystal Maiden, Disruptor, and others with environmental destruction feats don't use mana to amp their strikes. Mana merely fuels their ability to use magic. That's all mana does, and the very few who use mana to increase their damage (Outworld Destroyer) or augment their defense (Medusa) don't use it to amp their physical stats. Anti-Mage only uses mana in a specific technique that doesn't amp his physical stats, but it adds an additional effect to his strikes where he turns their mana against them. Like I said, though, Dota 2 still deserves a verse specific page

 

[Shmooply]

I was more-so refering to the other types of UES, not every single one is about physical amps.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

I was more-so refering to the other types of UES, not every single one is about physical amps.

My b, was so used to UES and not the other two. Between the limited and non-physical energy system, which one does Dota 2 use?