Dos and Don'ts of Statistics by Large Size

[DontTalkDT]

Since there are plenty large characters, I think writing a guide on how to make or not to make stats by size might be a good idea. For that I want to debate the options we have.

Don'ts 1: Speed by size alone
One calc practice I see used, which I don't agree with, is to get speed by scaling it with the characters size.

A typical example would be: A normal human running speed is 12.5 m/s. The character is 10x larger than a normal human and hence takes steps that are 10x longer. Assuming the character makes step in the same timeframe as a normal human, it is hence 10x faster. So the character is 125 m/s fast.

I don't even see these calcs made just for running characters, but even for flying ones, where something like a step length doesn't really exist.

So, why do I disagree with this method? Because there is no guarantee that a giant will need the same timeframe for an action as a small person.

In fact, many giants in animation look somewhat sluggish, because they move slowly relative to their body size. E.g.:


Rise of The Titans - Hercules 1997 Scene

Of course, if one can get a timeframe of some action one can simply use that, but if no timeframe is given I disagree that a giant can necessarily perform actions in the same timeframe its small counterpart would.

This has another consequence:

Don'ts 2: KE by size alone
I've seen that used as well. Since I would argue that we shouldn't calculate speed by size alone, as a consequence KE can't be calculated by size alone either.

Dos: AP by GPE
The one quantification method by size alone that I agree with would be doing it via gravitational potential energy.

An example of that would be this ancient calc of mine.

A giant character (with some rare exceptions) can at least drop on someone with their body weight and stand back up. That are potential AP/Strength feats. One has to consider where the center of mass is of course.

This is IMO the only way to reliably get a stat only from size (aside from range of course).

Opinions? Further ideas for methods one can use?

 

[Zaratthustra]

Well, let's say we use 1.70m and 62kg character for that 12.5 m/s. He's then 10 times larger. I assume you mean by height. Using Ugarik method.

Weight - (17/1.7) ^ 3 * 62 = 62000 kg

(Speed2 = Speed1 * (Height2/Height1))

Running Speed - 12.5 * (17/1.7) = 125 m/s

Running Energy - 0.5 * (62000 kg) * (125 m/s)^2 = 484 375 000 joules or 0.11576840344 tons (Small Building - 9-A)

This situation doesn't sound unusual since at that size it should be possible. As long as the character and those that could content (if we go by scaling) can support this calculation with their feats/statements then I don't see why not. Yeah, sure for some verses may not work if they have outlines or its too exagerate for the verse.

This situation could also be case by case since some verse treats bigger characters as sluggish, slow moving, etc but at the same time some consider them fast, and not sluggish. It's depend on the mechanics of the verse.

 

[DontTalkDT]

If the character has feats of doing actions in a lower timeframe than their human counterpart you can use that.

I just believe that the assumptions that a character necessary is as fast as their small counterpart relative to size is in general unjustified. There is no sufficiently good reason to assume it.


That is completely independent over whether the result is unreasonable. (Although any 51m tall giant being Supersonic and any 1000km tall character being planet level aren't the epitome of intuitive either.)

 

[Zaratthustra]

Yeah, like I said above not all character are faster if they are larger in size. It's depends how the verse in specification treats characters that are of bigger proportions or those that enlarge themselves. A good example is Antman from Marvel. He get's sluggish and slower as he increase (talking about the MCU).

At the same time some verse treats them being faster since they can cover more distance or just because that's the verse mechanic.

 

[DontTalkDT]

bump

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, giant characters are generally moves slower due having larger nervious system, it takes more time to them to reach the brain, or to the brain to sent the signal to the limb; I also believe that having higher surface area slows them too, but kind of unsure. Naturally, there's exceptions, such that one Digimon that was small and fast, people tried to makes him huge to slow him down, but he remain equally fast.

I'm fine by not using KE for giants ratings if they do not perform feats in a timeframe inferior to what a smallsized being would do it. As for GPE, not quite sure, even the GPE of falling humans would exceed our current rating.

 

[Ugarik]

There is another issue with large size which seems extremely counterintuitive. Lifting strength actually is increasing as power of 4 if "a giant can necessarily perform actions in the same timeframe its small counterpart would".

At first in seems like it doesn't make any sence however Newton's second law states that force = Mass*(ΔV)/t and it fact if you input speed and mass of a giant here you will get a power of 4 increase compared to their regular sized counterpart.

I figured the best way to make sense out of this. Let's say there are 1.7 m and 170 m dudes. No doubt the second one is a million times heavier. Hower if the fist dude drops something on the ground from his own height this thing will hit the ground in 0.6 seconds. However if the tall guy does the same the fall time will take whole 6 second. So not only the second dude is a million times heavier the gravity also seems 100 times weaker for him.

 

[Wokistan]

I agree with the points on speed and KE. That fetish calculator we use for some of the characters assumes the huge character is still moving proportionate to a normal human's size, which can get some rather wanked speed results when this isn't shown. I ran into issues with this initially here and here.

I think if they actually do something KE worthy though, like Dauntless getting that timeframe or someone in a visual medium swinging a thing, it should be fine.

 

[DontTalkDT]

As for GPE, not quite sure, even the GPE of falling humans would exceed our current rating.

We rank human levels by punches or kicks, I think? I mean, that that is less than a drop kick is obvious. Have never seen anyone argue that an AP feat for a giant (or normal character for that matter) doesn't apply, because they put their weight into the impact.

There is another issue with large size which seems extremely counterintuitive. Lifting strength actually is increasing as power of 4 if "a giant can necessarily perform actions in the same timeframe its small counterpart would".

Lifting strength in general is also something I wouldn't calculate just from giant size. That's because I think lifting strength shouldn't include lifting the weight of ones own body, so they would need feats of lifting other objects.

I think if they actually do something KE worthy though, like Dauntless getting that timeframe or someone in a visual medium swinging a thing, it should be fine.

If you have a timeframe or otherwise can otherwise proof that they move the same speed as their small counterparts relative to their size they can of course have that.

 

[Wokistan]

You do shift your weight to get the most out of a punch or kick anyways

 

[Ugarik]

Also what's the reason behind using full body running KE instead of just a punch. Not only is it more accurate but also easier to calculate.

The punching formula is just: 40 J*(H/1.75 m)^5 where H is height in meters

 

[M3X_2.0]

Can you explain more abour this formula, Ugarik?

 

[Wokistan]

People probably aren't going to die if they run into a wall, and some people tackle

 

[Ugarik]

Can you explain more abour this formula, Ugarik?

Any KE increases as the ^5 with size. 40 J is KE of a normal punch and 1.75 m is an average human height

People probably aren't going to die if they run into a wall, and some people tackle

By that logic even physicaly unfit humans would be 9-C.

 

[Ugarik]

Regardless, I agree with all the points made by DT

 

[Wokistan]

Can really out of shape people even tackle properly like that though? Too much dead weight and speed goes into the trash, not enough weight and you're stuck lower down.

Aren't bones usually 9-C anyways

 

[Therefir]

I agree with DontTalkDT for the most part, but in cases where characters move at high speeds, as if they were human-sized, using Ugarik's method should be fine.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I agree with DontTalkDT for the most part, but in cases where characters move at high speeds, as if they were human-sized, using Ugarik's method should be fine.

In an example like you have there you can just measure the timeframe the giant needed to take a step and get speed that way.

Basically, in any case in which characters are known to move with as high speeds as if they were human-sized, you can just measure said speed directly and get a more precise quantification of it that way.

 

[Zero0zero0zero]

The GPE method could be used for any heavy or overly fat character, right?

 

[Ugarik]

If speed shouldn't be measured from size alone my formula can not be used

 

[Antvasima]

Somebody should preferably ask the other calc group members to comment here.

 

[DMUA]

Yeah I definitely agree

 

[TheRustyOne]

I agree with the points made by DontTalk as well.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I agree with DontTalkDT's points, but I also think Ugarik's suggestion of scaling size to average human punches is more accurate than using GPE or KE.

 

[Wokistan]

If speed shouldn't be measured from size alone my formula can not be used

I think his punch formula might have also relied on assuming a proportionate speed.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Can we assume normal human speed with giant weight? I still think GPE isn't reliable.

 

[Zero0zero0zero]

I feel like whatever formula may be chosen, should be at least be flexible by distance divided by size. There's also various giant octupus and non-humanoid giant beings, so punching formula isn't the ideal on these cases.

 

[The_Impress]

If a gigantic character has shown to have comparable speeds to the rest of the human cast members, in that scenario would scaling KE and Speed to size be valid?

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

For GPE, wouldn't humans falling be 9-C then? A human doesn't fall on people as an attack, which is why we don't rate humans as 9-C. Same with giants.

 

[Andytrenom]

With how often we get "8-C because building sized, 7-A because mountain sized, etc", I do think we need an official set of policies on this AP via size thing

Calculating punching KE might also be a good way of giving these characters their ratings

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Problem is the speed of giants might or might not be proportionate to their height compared to humans.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like most calc group members agree with DontTalkDT's analysis. We need to decide some alternative useful method to use though, and it would also be quite a project to find and properly revise all of the giant characters tiered by the old method.

 

[DontTalkDT]

For GPE, wouldn't humans falling be 9-C then? A human doesn't fall on people as an attack, which is why we don't rate humans as 9-C. Same with giants.

We wouldn't discount giant crater calculations, because the character caused it by falling, no?

Neither would we not rank a character by falling if it actually fights like that, no? Like kicking people after jumping high up into the air.

A normal human is rather limited in its ability to fall unto other people, but a giant has a much easier time regarding that as it can just step on most things.

Additionally our margin of error regarding high tiers is somewhat higher as well. IMO that is the reason why we would probably not count a small 10-C child cutting a 10-B character with a sharp knife as a 10-B feat (without the knife), while we would consider someone cutting a 7-A character with a sharp knife as a feat somewhere in the 7-A area.

With how often we get "8-C because building sized, 7-A because mountain sized, etc", I do think we need an official set of policies on this AP via size thing

Might be good idea to do a table with size corresponding to AP for some common materials.

In that regard I at least would cut off my method once we reach moon level or something, simply because GPE doesn't apply as well to characters floating in space.

If a gigantic character has shown to have comparable speeds to the rest of the human cast members, in that scenario would scaling KE and Speed to size be valid?

Not sure what you mean. If the character is shown to be only as fast as an average human, than no. That would make the giant very slow relative to its size.

If the character in question is shown to take its actions in the same timeframe a normal sized person would take these actions in, then technically yes. Though, as I mentioned before, it would seem simpler to do just do a direct KE calc if you have a timeframe available that proofs that the character fulfils this criteria.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

If the giant actually fell on people as an attack, sure we can use GPE, just like it would be fine to use KE if the giant actually ran that fast. But if we just have a giant and without any other information, I disagree with using GPE. What if the giant dies if it falls down?

Also I don't think we rate a character 7-A if he can only damage 7-A characters with sharp weaponry, especially when fiction wanks sharp weaponry.

 

[DMUA]

What if the giant dies if it falls down?

That doesn't sound common at all, and if it happens in one work, there are dozens of others where a giant falls over and gets back up more bothered by the punch that brought them down than anything else

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

If the giant did fall down on people or stuff then that's fine, but if it's just a giant existing I don't think GPE should be used.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Unless we are talking exceptional cases, I have the feeling that it's ok to assume that the giant is an entity capable of living with its own size. Being able to survive tripping is part of that.


If the majority here thinks we should just not do tier by size at all, I guess I'm ok with that as well. Though, in my opinion, cases of 1km tall 9-A giants would be kinda strange.

 

[Zaratthustra]

Wouldn't cases that back the AP from size be still relevant. Like someone being 1000 miles tales but there are no destructive feat for environment since a lot of times the author doesn't write or explain them. We know the character is so big but since there are no destructive feats even if he/she fought with someone, what do we do? Put him and those thay may scale to Unknown or can the size calculation be still relevant.

I say thins since in a lot of books/novels there isn't always the damage on evironement stated.

 

[Antvasima]

So what is the calc group consensus here? Take note that we likely do not have enough time to start major revisions right now.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

We haven't reached a consensus yet, although DontTalkDT suggested using the gravitational potential energy of giants falling as their AP rating.