Doppo Orochi vs Sagat (8-0-0)

[Knifeman29]

The God of martial Arts fights the Emperor of Muay Thai
The Tiger slayer battles the Invincible Tiger
Doppo VS Sagat

Both are 9-A
Speed is equal
Fight takes place in the Ayutthaya Ruins​

Doppo:SamanPatou, EliminatorVenom, LordGinSama, Armochompy Peppersalt43, Vizer04, Revaret, Popted2

Sagat:

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​

 

[SamanPatou]

Following, I will share my opinions soon.

 

[SamanPatou]

Ok, here we are.
Premise: I don't know much about Baki (I just recently started reading it), so I will mainly go off with the profile and ask questions.

First, let's take a look at AP.

Doppo upscales from these three calcs, with the higher resulting in 0.03 tons.
Sagat upscales from this, which is 0.04 tons
Overall, they shouldn't be that far from the other.

I'm not quite sure how to analyze this in a single round, so I'll split it into arguments for both:


Sagat:

Advantages/Good Tools

• Possibly higher AP
• Higher reach, due to his size and projectiles
• Can boost his Attacks in several ways
• Much higher lifting strength
• Comparable ESP
• Has already fought karatekas, including one as good as Ryu, and has a life-long winning streak
• His aggressive fighting style might exploit Doppo's weakness
• Can cause crumpling

Disadvantages

• It is unknown how good most of his opponents were, especially when compared to Doppo
• Likely has never fought one with techniques such as Doppo's
• His projectiles can be countered by the Mawashi Uke, although I don't know how effective it is

Doppo

Advantages/Good tools

• Many more deadly techniques, (those related to Pressure Points, limited Dura Neg and Status Effects)
• Higher pain tolerance
• Likely more experience and has likely fought Muay Thai pratictioners (I'm ignorant of this, so I'll leave this to others)
• Analytical Prediction, Info Analysis and Instinctive Reactions are extremely useful
• May be able to reflect Sagat's projectiles, tho I don't know how the technique works, how efficient it is and what are its limits

Disadvantages

• Less range, tho I'm not sure how relevant it would be
• Much lower Lifting Strength
• His weakness to aggressive opponents and tendency to rely on karate may or may not turn the tides of the battle, experts shall shed light on this

All in all, I'd say Doppo would take this, but I will wait for others' opinions.

@LordGinSama @EliminatorVenom I believe your input can be precious

 

[EliminatorVenom]

This is a based fight.

Answering some of the things Saman has asked, with Gin probably being in a better position as it has been a while since I last read Baki, these are my opinions:

1) Doppo's reliance on Karate: While true that Doppo is pretty much a karate purist, and he does have problems with aggressive opponents at times, it is less muted than most examples of people who are like this, as he has trained and used karate in a much wider range of situations, combat scenarios and ways than most people. He has sucessfully applied and adapted his techniques to scenarios such as fighting tigers (The famous incident he killed a tiger), armed people, extremely unorthodox, dirty fighters (Dorian), street brawls, fighting tournaments with no rules (He was one of the greatest fighters in Korakuen in his tenure) and even sword fighters. (Musashi)
2) Doppo's reflection: I'm... unsure if his reflection would work on energy projectiles, as most reflections in Baki are heavily based around redirecting the limbs and physical strikes of foes, so I'd bet it wouldn't work, if I had to pick one or another.

Saman analysed it pretty concisely, so I'll just add a few things before my veredict:

• Doppo is the superior fighter, overall. They are comparable in experience and range of foes, with Sagat having more experience against more "supernatural" forms of fighting and Doppo having more against a purely physical foe, but by feats, I'd say that Doppo's accuracy, technical perfection, tactics and the intangibles of a fight are all in his favour. Maybe Sagat can compare to him mentally, with his recent evolution and suppressing the Satsui no Hado, but skill-wise, I'd give the edge to Doppo.
• Range is actually great for Sagat, he can solidly put some harm into Doppo or at least force him to move around and engage him on his terms thanks to the energy projectiles, and his incredibly long limbs will be a boon to keep Doppo out of distance, especially considering Doppo is quite small. Of course, this isn't anything massive and it isn't anything new to Doppo or that he can't take care of, but it is something to consider.
• I'd add that Doppo has a far superior defense. Sagat might have raw durability, but Doppo has waaaay more defensive options, better tolerance to pain and all of his powers complement his defense by a lot.
• Luckily for Doppo, I don't think Sagat'd use his LS for anything major. Sagat's style is mostly based around striking, and he'd use LS for the odd clinch, which even with way inferior LS can be fought against, and some short grapples to land a few hits.

 

[LordGinSama]

Venom basically said what I was thinking

 

[LordGinSama]

Although Sagat can definitely put his LS to proper use here, I can't speak for Sagat's version of Muay Thai but I've done classes for it a few years back and stand grappling is a very major part of the art.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Although Sagat can definitely put his LS to proper use here, I can't speak for Sagat's version of Muay Thai but I've done classes for it a few years back and stand grappling is a very major part of the art.

Yeah, I kinda oversimplified it, my bad. At least from my experience there in a gym, which is admittedly very little as I took only a few classes, there's plenty of clinching, leaning, tripping and restraining the foe, just not in the manner of wrestling and all that.

In any case, Sagat does seem to focus on the striking aspect, with really long straight strikes.

 

[SamanPatou]

Sagat does use some grabs, mostly to keep the opponent still and knee their face and gut, or lift, hit and throw them away. But yes, he's mostly a striking-based and projectile fighter.

 

[Armorchompy]

Following. Does Sagat have a canon fighting style or is it just inferred from his gameplay?

 

[SamanPatou]

Sagat's canonically a Muay Thai pratictioner, master and champion, with the inclusion of fictional elements such as energy blasts, combos, acrobatics etc...

The rest is pretty much detailed in his intelligence and A&T sections.

 

[Armorchompy]

Oh I mean mostly his preference for fighting defensively and stuff like that

 

[SamanPatou]

We don't really know, he may be balanced due to his overall skill and wisdom, and also because his gameplay allows you both play it safe from distance as well as rushdown the opponent and put some pressure in them.

I'd say there is no ultimate answer, in the few cutscenes available we see him doing both things.

 

[SamanPatou]

Bump

 

[Armorchompy]

I feel like if Sagat plays defensive that's his best chance, Doppo doesn't have a good answer to TIGER and Sagat should be able to use his superior range effectively when he approaches, but overall I think Doppo should win out in most situations, even if Sagat does play defensive there's still counterplay when Doppo gets in range

 

[SamanPatou]

Bump

 

[SamanPatou]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Doppo FRA for now

 

[SamanPatou]

Bump

 

[Vizer04]

Doppo FRA

 

[SamanPatou]

Bump

 

[Armorchompy]

idk if it was counted but i am voting doppo too

 

[Knifeman29]

Bump

 

[Knifeman29]

Bump

 

[Knifeman29]

Bump

 

[Revaret]

Doppo FRA

 

[Popted2]

Doppo FRA

 

[CrackerVolley]

I feel like if Sagat plays defensive that's his best chance, Doppo doesn't have a good answer to TIGER and Sagat should be able to use his superior range effectively when he approaches, but overall I think Doppo should win out in most situations, even if Sagat does play defensive there's still counterplay when Doppo gets in range

I'm not voting yet, but there's a decent chance Sagat will be playing defensively. I know there's the question on how gameplay may not actually actually line up the reality of the lore, but a lot of Sagat's AI in the SF2 and Alpha games do really highlight how committed he is to zoning you out with Tiger Shots and the range of his leg strikes.

 

[SamanPatou]

We've reached grace period, btw.

I'm not voting yet, but there's a decent chance Sagat will be playing defensively. I know there's the question on how gameplay may not actually actually line up the reality of the lore, but a lot of Sagat's AI in SF2 and Alpha do really highlight how committed he is to zoning you out with Tiger Shots and the range of his leg strikes.

It still isn't out of the ordinary, it would also make sense for him to fight that way.

 

[SamanPatou]

Grace is over, I'm adding the match.