"Do you wanna have a bad time?" - Sans Rebunks (SI, Resistances, KARMA)

[ShionAH]

Introduction​

So Sans lost some stuff, this CRT will try to get 'em added back to the GOAT of Undertale.

---

Social Influencing

• Tricked Frisk in the Genocie Route, making them spare him even though at this point they were a bloodlusted genociding maniac

- Arguments

Spoiler: Text

Nothing says that Frisk canonically always falls for it (otherwise how would they be able to beat him), and nothing says that they did because they bought Sans' talk no jutsu. They may have simply decided to play along to see how it plays out. The same thing was done by Flowey after all, as he does mention that he purposely lost every game and did everything that was possible to do in the Underground just to see what happens. I'd also remind y'all that Flowey is also supposed to be a reflection of the Player, as he does give you a tutorial, gives hints for how to complete the Pacifist Route (and gets mad if you don't do everything exactly how he says) and claims multiple times that Chara is the only one who understands him as they're not predictable like the other characters, who are just NPCs for him. I'd remind you all that Chara is written to be also a reflection of us, due to them being our desire to grind stats (yet not being actually us at the same time) and their name is chosen by us.

- Counter

Spoiler: Text 2

It is pretty much shown that at this point on Frisk is out of their minds, literally trying to kill innocent kids and seeing them as something as mere as EXP. I don't think there is ANYTHING that would convince Frisk especially when Papyrus a close friend in other runs who literally refuses to attack us and tells us he is proud of us failed to affect them in any way emotionally. I could bring hundreds of times where Frisk in Genocide has shown to be a completely emotionless maniac, the route is literally called "Genocide" for a reason. Yet, Sans achieves it. He is just that good of a manipulator. About the canon stuff, Undertale has many different routes depending on the player which is why we generally take the entirety of the content, basically all the routes and dialogues for our profiles. By this logic we would have to pick a single route and use that for the profiles, which is really stupid. Whats important is that it COULD happen. On to the whole "they played along", I don't think someone who truly didn't care about Sans' words would go on to literally hug him dropping their weapon, and then would be "REALLY PISSED OFF" when they realise they were betrayed. It also lacks any evidence then throwing random stuff from Flowey and stuff to mind the warp of people who don't know Undertale, disgusting if you ask me.

Agree: 3 (@Monsters_fight, @TheOrangeGuy09, @ShionAH
Disagree: 3 (@StrymULTRA, @Eden_Warlock99, @Deidalius
Neutral:

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Empathic Manipulation

• Minor Empathic Manipulation (When against Sans, the opponents will likely feel guilt as if their sins were crawling on their backs)

Strym pretty much manipulated the Staff to make it look way worse. I don't see why it would be Minor for not crippling the enemies, that is not what "Minor" means Sans is pretty much inducing feelings on to his foes, which is straight up an ability. Secondly, Strym argues this never actually did anything to Frisk in combat which is why it has the little weakness note. Expect guess what? Feats we use literally PROVE that Frisk is affected. Just because Frisk can continue fighting while they are getting affected emotionally does not mean suddenly Sans' ability is useless. Hell this is likely just an application of Frisk's Supernatural Willpower and Determination

Actually, additionally. Its entirelly possible due to Frisk not being evil, it simply had no affects on THEM. Obviously the player is out of Sans' reach.

"Weaken the enemy (via sorrow, guilt, regret)"

Agree: 4 (@Monsters_fight, @TheOrangeGuy09, @ShionAH, @Eden_Warlock99)
Disagree: 2 (@StrymULTRA, @Deidalius
Neutral:

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Resistance to Fear Manipulation

• Seemingly unaffected by Chara's presence and merely makes jokes about it, which has been shown to make victim's unnaturally scared. A good example of this being Doggo who couldn't even see them or know if there was even someone there, Frisk also did the same to Flowey even though Flowey considers himself emotionless

- Argument

Spoiler: Text 1

While we don't know what's going on for the other monsters, we have showings that with bravery/rage/confidence alone, you can overcome their fear aura. Sans isn't any different from this.

- Counter

Spoiler: Text 2

This is the most disgusting, most insane argument I have ever seen that somehow got a pass from MULTIPLE staff members. I could genuinly jump off a building just to not live in the same cosmos as this piece of shit of a text.

Anyways, this is wrong. We cannot use Undyne and others to say that Fear was just weak. Yknow why? Its very much clear that the Fear ability actually gets stronger with our LV and likely from Chara. At first it can make people as soft as Papyrus scared and make others shiver. Which means what Undyne, Dummy and MK resist is actually a Fear hax that only has these two showcases. Sans on the other hand faces us AFTER we do THIS, literally making the "emotionless" and "soulless" Flowey who literally is a complete stranger to the feeling of "fear" according to himself scream with fear, shake uncontrollably and sweat nervously using a simple stare even when he was pretty proud and normal right before. Which is implied that we actually USE against Sans.

• ...
• that expression that you're wearing...
• ...
• you're really kind of a freak, huh?

Agree: 3 (@Monsters_fight, @TheOrangeGuy09, @ShionAH
Disagree: 2 (@StrymULTRA, @Eden_Warlock99)
Neutral:

---

Weakness/Vandalism?

• He cannot do anything during his special attack, and his opponent can attack him if he falls asleep.

This was added by Strym without a CRT or enough approvals. Remove.

Agree: 4 (@Monsters_fight, @TheOrangeGuy09, @StrymULTRA, @ShionAH
Disagree:
Neutral:

---

 

[Monsters_fight]

I agree with everything, but despite Strym adding that without a CRT, we could debate about that weakness and if it gets accepted, we can still have it. Anyways, try to be calmer and not be so hostile towards Strym.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I agree with everything, but despite Strym adding that without a CRT, we could debate about that weakness and if it gets accepted, we can still have it. Anyways, try to be calmer and not be so hostile towards Strym.

Pretty much this.

I can agree with the proposals but calm the bit down in some parts. It's not that deep.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Is able to maintain his job even though he sleeps all the time and drives Undyne mad.

Who says that Undyne has fired someone before? Who says that it's only because of Undyne having pity on him?

Too far fetched to be SI.

Was capable of traumatizing Flowey to the point where even the mention of anything linked to Sans leaves him angry and nervous.

Dark Souls bosses do not get SI because of them getting super hard.

the route is literally called "Genocide" for a reason

It's a fan term, not an official one. Remember that.

Undertale has many different routes depending on the player which is why we generally take the entirety of the content, basically all the routes and dialogues for our profiles. By this logic we would have to pick a single route and use that for the profiles, which is really stupid.

Nobody here is using this logic at all. In fact, I used Flowey's canonically taking every possible path and being a reflection of the Player character right to harm your argument. Frisk could have just fallen for it just to see what happens. After all, it's not like Sans could permanently kill them, so they can mess around all they want.

I don't think someone who truly didn't care about Sans' words would go on to literally hug him dropping their weapon, and then would be "REALLY PISSED OFF" when they realise they were betrayed.

I can also get pissed off when things go in an unpleasant and unexpected way, absolutely nothing to do with SI.

It also lacks any evidence then throwing random stuff from Flowey and stuff to mind the warp of people who don't know Undertale, disgusting if you ask me.

It's called "actually playing the game beyond watching the Sans fight 300 times per day". Drop the accusations, or this goes to RVRT.

Strym pretty much manipulated the Staff to make it look way worse.

Drop the accusations, or this goes to RVRT (2).

Secondly, Strym argues this never actually did anything to Frisk in combat which is why it has the little weakness note. Expect guess what? Feats we use literally PROVE that Frisk is affected. Just because Frisk can continue fighting while they are getting affected emotionally does not mean suddenly Sans' ability is useless. Hell this is likely just an application of Frisk's Supernatural Willpower and Determination

Actually, additionally. Its entirelly possible due to Frisk not being evil, it simply had no affects on THEM. Obviously the player is out of Sans' reach.

I do not even need to debunk this, I can really just ask a question here:

"What feats does Sans' emphatic hax have?"

It really boils down to this. You have to show that Sans' KR has feats of ******* up people without DT in the way you're implying. You don't have that? Then go to sleep.

This is the most disgusting, most insane argument I have ever seen that somehow got a pass from MULTIPLE staff members. I could genuinly jump off a building just to not live in the same cosmos as this piece of shit of a text.

Drop the accusations, or this goes to RVRT (3).

Which is implied that we actually USE against Sans.

Implied from what? I'd remind you that Sans does this kind of statements when he sees Frisk's expression to see how many times they died against them, nothing says that Frisk made said particular face to Sans, the most likely interpretation here is just Sans reading Frisk's satisfied face after winning, but got freaked out from them going all the way again.

The weakness section idrc tho, but the rest.., it's just weak as hell and a bunch of assumptions, more than worth to be called wank.

 

[ShionAH]

Lacking any extremely powerful affects does not mean it is a “minor” hax. Its still a full ability.

Again, you are just making the assumption that the frisk didn’t care about and did it to do it. Its your word against mine, expect the other stuff such as their reaction supports my claim more than it does yours. Tipping it to my side, additionally Flowey has nothing to fo with this

You ignored how unlike Sans others only resist Fear hax BEFORE it does anything strong. Which just messed your argument up.

Counting your vote though, of course

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Who says that Undyne has fired someone before? Who says that it's only because of Undyne having pity on him?

Actually, we do have canonical info regarding this...

...which really goes against SI, so yeah.

I can also get pissed off when things go in an unpleasant and unexpected way, absolutely nothing to do with SI.

You missed the other part tbh.

I do not even need to debunk this, I can really just ask a question here:

"What feats does Sans' emphatic hax have?"

It really boils down to this. You have to show that Sans' KR has feats of ******* up people without DT in the way you're implying. You don't have that? Then go to sleep.

Making sins crawling on one’s back is pretty much legit emotional manipulation that Frisk is feeling. The only thing though: Player couldn’t care less.

Implied from what? I'd remind you that Sans does this kind of statements when he sees Frisk's expression to see how many times they died against them, nothing says that Frisk made said particular face to Sans, the most likely interpretation here is just Sans reading Frisk's satisfied face after winning, but got freaked out from them going all the way again.

He’s just disgusted that you are a pervert to come and kill him even after you already did.
But I still feel that Resistance to Fear Manipulation is OK, but don’t really care if it remains rejected.

 

[ShionAH]

Actually, we do have canonical info regarding this...

...which really goes against SI, so yeah.

So after YEARS of being a fan, I had NO IDEA this existed. Ts game is awesome

 

[StrymULTRA]

Lacking any extremely powerful affects does not mean it is a “minor” hax. Its still a full ability.

It actually works like that, sadly for you.

In powerscaling we use feats over assumptions, as there we go in fanfiction instead and lose the point of powerscaling.

Feats. Now.

Again, you are just making the assumption that the frisk didn’t care about and did it to do it. Its your word against mine, expect the other stuff such as their reaction supports my claim more than it does yours.

Except that your explanation is bogus and you're just refusing to see any other intepretation of it.

additionally Flowey has nothing to fo with this

"A character who is canonically meant to reflect the Player and their way of thinking when dealing with fictional beings below their capabilities is not usable as a reason why they chosen to go along the boss' trickery."

Wowza.

Making sins crawling on one’s back is pretty much legit emotional manipulation that Frisk is feeling. The only thing though: Player couldn’t care less.

Prove me someone who is good of heart would be affected significantly and then we talk.

But you cannot do that outside fanfiction bullshit.

He’s just disgusted that you are a pervert to come and kill him even after you already did.

This still does not prove that Chara used the same stare they used in Flowey though.

 

[ShionAH]

"A character who is canonically meant to reflect the Player and their way of thinking when dealing with fictional beings below their capabilities is not usable as a reason why they chosen to go along the boss' trickery."

“Headcanon + fanfiction + personal opinion on narrative = proof”

Prove me someone who is good of heart would be affected significantly and then we talk.

They literally wouldnt, wtf? Its an ability that uses your sins against you, if you have close to no sins its useless. No one is arguing that it works on pure hearted people.

 

[Agnaa]

Only read SI, but the argument for it is as wack as it was last time.

Especially lmao is the part where you say "Papyrus couldn't even convince Frisk!" ignoring how there is a route for abandoning genocide at Papyrus, and then going on to say "We basically take every route of Undertale as canon". You can abandon genocide at any point, and we shouldn't give every single monster that you could stop at SI. That's just part of how many routes exist in this game.

Strym asked me to ping the following staff members @Maverick_Zero_X @Planck69 @DarkDragonMedeus @AbaddonTheDisappointment

 

[ShionAH]

Only read SI, but the argument for it is as wack as it was last time.

Not surprised, I know your opinion on certain stuff.

You can abandon genocide at any point, and we shouldn't give every single monster that you could stop at SI. That's just part of how many routes exist in this game.

Do ANY OF THEM make Frisk DROP THEIR WEAPON, HUG THEM and THEN abondon Genocide? Do ANY OF THEM do this when Frisk is LV 19.99999 RIGHT WHEN THEY ARE AT THEIR GOAL? DO ANY OF THEM DO THIS WHEN FRISK IS AT THEIR PEAK DETERMINATION AND LOVE (LEVEL OF VIOLENCE) or EXP (Execution Points THAT LITERALLY MAKE YOU MORE “EVIL” and “AGRESSIVE”)?

Ohh but noo its always MY arguments that suddenly “make no sense” and are “wack”

 

[StrymULTRA]

“Headcanon + fanfiction + personal opinion on narrative = proof”

How is Flowey being the same as Frisk/Player a headcanon though?

Besides, Monster Kid and Papyrus also can make Frisk stop the Genocide by also appealing to them like Sans, but these don't get SI.

I think Agnaa made a good explanation about it here.

They literally wouldnt, wtf? Its an ability that uses your sins against you, if you have close to no sins its useless. No one is arguing that it works on pure hearted people.

Meaning that this is a lose-lose explanation:

• Good people: No effect because no sins to use
• Bad people: Still no effect because it has no feats of affecting them and the ones who did face it ultimately were not that hindered and just walked through it.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

DISAGREE with the SI stuff
The SI counter hinges entirely on the idea that Frisk is this completely unfeeling, unthinking killer who can’t be reasoned with. But immediately after the fight, sans himself contradicts this by acknowledging that Frisk didn’t commit Genocide out of hatred for monsters or whatever, but rather pure curiosity, to see what happens if they push the game to its limits.

i know your type.
you're, uh, very determined, aren't you?
you'll never give up, even if there's, uh...
absolutely NO benefit to persevering whatsoever.
if i can make that clear.
no matter what, you'll just keep going.
not out of any desire for good or evil...
but just because you think you can.
and because you "can"...
... you "have to."

So if there’s an option to spare Sans and see what happens, why not take it?

Yes, they drop their weapon and approach Sans for a hug, but Sans literlly invites them to do it? It’s just Frisk rolling with what looks like another possible outcome.
And when it turns out to be a trick? Of course they’re pissed. They just got outplayed. Not helped by the fact that sans also straight-up mocks them in the Game Over screen (Something something TTAR is literally the perfect example of this yada yada).

Plus, considering Flowey’s parallel to the player as "throwing in random stuff" is like, ignoring one of Undertale’s most obvious and intentional narrative elements.

also DISAGREE with the fear resistance
It's just that fighting someone with fear hax doesn't give you a resistance to it, you need it to explicitly not affect you, like a statement or whatever.
Also Flowey does feel fear, guy feels every emotion that isn't Love.

He held me with tears in his eyes, saying…
“There, there. Everything is going to be alright.”
He was so… Emotional.
But… For some reason…
I didn’t feel anything at all.
I soon realized I didn’t feel ANYTHING about ANYONE.
My compassion had disappeared!

Far too many people misinterpret his "I soon realised I couldn't feel ANYTHING about ANYONE." to be that he's literally unable to feel anything, which is obviously not the case. Flowey simply reveals that despite Asgore expressing love and sympathy towards him, Flowey did not experience any feelings of love or comfort in response.

In fact, at the end of the pacifist route, Asriel emphasizes that his inability to love others was due to being soulless.
He never claims that being soulless rendered him unable to feel emotions.

Frisk…
I haven’t felt like this for a long time.
As a flower, I was soulless.
I lacked the power to love other people.
However, with everyone’s souls inside me…
I not only have my own compassion back…
But I can feel every other monster’s as well.
They all care about each other so much.
And… they care about you too, Frisk.

And yes, he did express fear.

I remember when I first woke up here, in the garden.
I was so scared.
I couldn’t feel my arms or my legs…
My entire body had turned into a flower!
“Mom! Dad! Somebody help me!” I called out.
But nobody came.
Eventually, the king found me, crying in the garden.

When Flowey first woke up, he was horrified at the loss of his limbs.
He was terrified by the awful situation he was alone in.
His fear pushed him to the point of tears.

AGREE with removing the "Minor" for KARMA tho, purely cause of the "Weighing on your neck" line, which clearly suggests that it’s something actively hindering them.

 

[StrymULTRA]

AGREE with removing the "Minor" for KARMA tho, purely cause of the "Weighing on your neck" line, which clearly suggests that it’s something actively hindering them.

Idk man that did not slow them that much and ultimately had no impact on the fight.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Agree: 3 (@Monsters_fight, @TheOrangeGuy09, @ShionAH

Did you agree with your own CRT?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

So after YEARS of being a fan, I had NO IDEA this existed. Ts game is awesome

Real, Undertale is always like this. I myself only found this a couple of days ago while going through some UT tumblr blogs. Truly Undertale being peak.

Especially lmao is the part where you say "Papyrus couldn't even convince Frisk!" ignoring how there is a route for abandoning genocide at Papyrus, and then going on to say "We basically take every route of Undertale as canon". You can abandon genocide at any point, and we shouldn't give every single monster that you could stop at SI. That's just part of how many routes exist in this game.

Sans' feat happens where you do NOT abandon Genocide though.

Idk man that did not slow them that much and ultimately had no impact on the fight.

Because canonically it is PLAYER who controls Frisk. All of text stuff describes Frisk's/Chara's feelings, NOT Player's.

Did you agree with your own CRT?

If a staff can agree with their own CRT, a user pretty much can.

DISAGREE with the SI stuff
The SI counter hinges entirely on the idea that Frisk is this completely unfeeling, unthinking killer who can’t be reasoned with. But immediately after the fight, sans himself contradicts this by acknowledging that Frisk didn’t commit Genocide out of hatred for monsters or whatever, but rather pure curiosity, to see what happens if they push the game to its limits.

So if there’s an option to spare Sans and see what happens, why not take it?

Yes, they drop their weapon and approach Sans for a hug, but Sans literlly invites them to do it? It’s just Frisk rolling with what looks like another possible outcome.
And when it turns out to be a trick? Of course they’re pissed. They just got outplayed. Not helped by the fact that sans also straight-up mocks them in the Game Over screen (Something something TTAR is literally the perfect example of this yada yada).

Plus, considering Flowey’s parallel to the player as "throwing in random stuff" is like, ignoring one of Undertale’s most obvious and intentional narrative elements.

also DISAGREE with the fear resistance
It's just that fighting someone with fear hax doesn't give you a resistance to it, you need it to explicitly not affect you, like a statement or whatever.

Tbh Flowey started fearing as long as he realized Frisk/Chara can kill them too, and they never agreed to be partners with Flowey or anything. Sans, on the other hand, always knew that Frisk/Chara can kill them yet was unaffected by their aura at all.

Agree on Flowey not being fearless though, he only specifically lacks compassion/love.

 

[Agnaa]

Do ANY OF THEM make Frisk DROP THEIR WEAPON, HUG THEM and THEN abondon Genocide?

First one it's unclear, but Papyrus does ask for a hug before being spared, and does make him abandon it.

Do ANY OF THEM do this when Frisk is LV 19.99999 RIGHT WHEN THEY ARE AT THEIR GOAL? DO ANY OF THEM DO THIS WHEN FRISK IS AT THEIR PEAK DETERMINATION AND LOVE (LEVEL OF VIOLENCE) or EXP (Execution Points THAT LITERALLY MAKE YOU MORE “EVIL” and “AGRESSIVE”)?

Do we know that it makes them more evil/aggressive? I thought it was just a measure of that based on their demonstrated actions.

And I think that is kind of a strange idea given Flowey's whole thing of doing every route. Is the idea that their minds are kept intact through resets, yet they don't keep that mindhax which EXP inflicts due to EXP not being saved through resets?

Ohh but noo its always MY arguments that suddenly “make no sense” and are “wack”

idk why you're taking this as something personal. I disagreed with Strym too in my last UT thread, I call many things wack, I've previously said you act in good faith.

Sans' feat happens where you do NOT abandon Genocide though.

The "abandon genocide" thing, in that case, is a more meta one where you simply don't load the game up again. Or in Frisk's case, ig, decide not to reset.

And still, it does seem like Frisk would've gone along with abandoning genocide if Sans would have let them, rather than instantly killing them.

Weirdly enough, there is unique dialogue for abandoning genocide at Mettaton NEO, when that must be done through glitches or cheating.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Checking more (sorry for message spam).

Agree: 4 (@Monsters_fight, @TheOrangeGuy09, @StrymULTRA, @ShionAH
Disagree:
Neutral:

I am neutral there, "I don't care" does not mean "I agree".

Do ANY OF THEM make Frisk DROP THEIR WEAPON, HUG THEM and THEN abondon Genocide?

No, but Monster Kid and Papyrus make the Genocide Route actually aborted if they're spared.

Sans not really, as you die immediately after. But the method is the same: appealing to the Player's empathy, which in the true form of the route it's completely absent.

Because canonically it is PLAYER who controls Frisk. All of text stuff describes Frisk's/Chara's feelings, NOT Player's.

Frisk's own emotions do impact the Player's control, like Frisk turnung the ACT button to SAVE without player input, or them slowing their walking speed a lot in the bathroom in the True Lab out of fear.

This is a non-argument.

Sans, on the other hand, always knew that Frisk/Chara can kill them yet was unaffected by their aura at all.

But nothing says that they used said aura on Sans to begin with, so...

 

[ShionAH]

Do we know that it makes them more evil/aggressive? I thought it was just a measure of that based on their demonstrated actions.

Pretty sure Sans says EXP makes it easier to gain more EXP (killing). Also “Level of violence” literally makes you more violent each LV I guess

idk why you're taking this as something personal. I disagreed with Strym too in my last UT thread, I call many things wack, I've previously said you act in good faith.

I am just stressed out and sleep deprived (I think that means lacking sleep?), sorry about the behaviour.


-Accidently deleted the quote, answer to Strym.-

From my understanding, OrangeMan is saying since Flowey got scared AFTER realising Frisk was a “monster” which Sans already knew implying that he was already affected. I think thats what he means.

 

[Deidalius]

I read the arguments above, and I disagree with giving Sans Social Influencing and Empathic Manipulation. Disagree FRA basically.

 

[ShionAH]

I read the arguments above, and I disagree with giving Sans Social Influencing and Empathic Manipulation. Disagree FRA basically.

I am sorry, you disagree with giving Empathic hax? Completely the entire ability?

I think I need a new vote counter for that

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

The "abandon genocide" thing, in that case, is a more meta one where you simply don't load the game up again. Or in Frisk's case, ig, decide not to reset.

Huh? Not really, it's just them becoming actually better, it's acknowledged many times in game. I feel like you are overusing with the whole "it's just meta" stuff.

Weirdly enough, there is unique dialogue for abandoning genocide at Mettaton NEO, when that must be done through glitches or cheating.

Huh, no? It's just if you kill everyone but spare Vulkin, he will say you held back.

Frisk's own emotions do impact the Player's control, like Frisk turnung the ACT button to SAVE without player input, or them slowing their walking speed a lot in the bathroom in the True Lab out of fear.

Fasle equivalance, these are completely different cases.
For a more similar case: feeling bad after hitting Mad Dummy does not prevent you from trying to beat up Mad Dammy in his fight all the time.

But nothing says that they used said aura on Sans to begin with, so...

Why would they use it on blind Doggo, non-confrontational Flowey, but not use it against Sans against whom they really get pissed off? I feel this should be at least "possibly/likely" rating, which honestly would be a good compromise.

 

[Deidalius]

I am sorry, you disagree with giving Empathic hax? Completely the entire ability?

I think I need a new vote counter for that

I should clarify, since you misinterpreted my intent. I think that ability should stay minor, as the profile currently is. FRA. So just put me on disagree on both of those.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I should clarify, since you misinterpreted my intent. I think that ability should stay minor, as the profile currently is.

Tbh your wording makes it look like as if you want the abilties completely gone or smth, so I doubt he misinterpreted.
But given you clarified, this (rather minor) issue is resolved.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Idk man that did not slow them that much and ultimately had no impact on the fight.

The "weight" is still a tangible effect it had on Frisk, and Empathic Manipulation in general just doesn't have that much of an impact in fights.
It's definitely a echelon higher than what we commonly list as a "Minor" ability (Minor Fire Manipulation because someone has a lighter)

Tbh Flowey started fearing as long as he realized Frisk/Chara can kill them too, and they never agreed to be partners with Flowey or anything. Sans, on the other hand, always knew that Frisk/Chara can kill them yet was unaffected by their aura at all.

Not denying that Frisk/Chara has a fear aura, it's just that I'm 99% sure that you need statements or other explicit proof of resisting things like fear to get a resistance.
Simply fighting someone with an even crippling fear aura, like say Dio or Sukuna, is not enough to net you a resistance.

Weirdly enough, there is unique dialogue for abandoning genocide at Mettaton NEO, when that must be done through glitches or cheating.

Nah, just don't kill all 40 monsters in Hotland/Core, basically just rush to Mettaton.

 

[StrymULTRA]

From my understanding, OrangeMan is saying since Flowey got scared AFTER realising Frisk was a “monster” which Sans already knew implying that he was already affected. I think thats what he means.

This is not a strong argument either as Chara has specifically made that face to Flowey, while with Sans they never hinted to do so.

It's also not something new to Chara, either.

Huh? Not really, it's just them becoming actually better, it's acknowledged many times in game. I feel you are overusing with tjhe whole "it's just meta" stuff.

"Flowey being used as example due to being a blatant parallel to the Player narrative is just meta stuff" ong.

Fasle equivalance, these are completely different cases.

You saying that does not refute it.

For a more similar case: feeling bad after hitting Mad Dummy does not prevent you from trying to beat up Mad Dammy in his fight all the time.

You can also turn a Pacifist in a Neutral at any moment from killing a single monster even well beyond that fight.

This is not an argument, it's you trying to force a narrative in a game where it's almost nonexistent due to every possible choice being canon.

Why would they use it on blind Doggo, non-confrontational Flowey, but not use it against Sans against whom they really get pissed off?

They didn't use it on Undyne, Muffet or Mettaton either.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

The "weight" is still a tangible effect it had on Frisk, and Empathic Manipulation in general doesn't have that much of an impact in fights.
It's definitely a echelon higher than what we commonly list as a "Minor" ability (Minor Fire Manipulation because someone has a lighter)

Not denying that Frisk/Chara has a fear aura, it's just that 99% sure that you need statements or other explicit proof of resisting things like fear to get a resistance.
Simply fighting someone with an even crippling fear aura, like say Dio or Sukuna, is enough to net you a resistance.

These have an actual fight scenes while UT fight is one vague thing. You can argue that even turns are canon stuff, while another one can argue that a 5 y. o. child blitzes the King of Monsters effortlessly.

Consider my proposal here y'all:.

Why would they use it on blind Doggo, non-confrontational Flowey, but not use it against Sans against whom they really get pissed off? I feel this should be at least "possibly/likely" rating, which honestly would be a good compromise.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Disagree: 3 (@StrymULTRA, @Eden_Warlock99, @Deidalius

Did you forget to count @Agnaa, a literal staff?

 

[ShionAH]

Pretty sure Agnna didnt vote anything yet. Just spoke about my argument, after I wake up if he still didnt clarify anything I’ll count him.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Pretty sure Agnna didnt vote anything yet. Just spoke about my argument, after I wake up if he still didnt clarify anything I’ll count him.

Only read SI, but the argument for it is as wack as it was last time.

I think it's pretty clear he still disagrees, if he also did in the last CRT.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

"Flowey being used as example due to being a blatant parallel to the Player narrative is just meta stuff" ong.

Agnaa's argument was not that.

You saying that does not refute it.

What... what kind of argument is this?
-Makes false equivalance
-That's false equivalance
-You did not refute anything

You can also turn a Pacifist in a Neutral at any moment from killing a single monster even well beyond that fight.

That's cool, but really red herring.

They didn't use it on Undyne, Muffet or Mettaton either.

I'm sure Shion addressed that in OP iirc.

 

[StrymULTRA]

What... what kind of argument is this?
-Makes false equivalance
-That's false equivalance
-You did not refute anything

You have to say why is false equivalence tho.

Just because you named a fallacy does not mean the argument is debunked, it does not work like that.

I'm sure Shion addressed that in OP iirc.

If we wanna play that card then Adem addressed also that instance.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Do we know that it makes them more evil/aggressive? I thought it was just a measure of that based on their demonstrated actions.

Actually looking into this, an increase in LOVE does make Frisk more cruel.

LV1

LV2 to 4

LV5 to 7

LV8 and higher

Of course, Frisk's mentality in the Genocide route is still more important, but it's still something to consider.

 

[LittleGuy99]

I agree with the Empathic Manipulation thing.
I am neutral with everything else.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think Agnaa and StyrmUltra are making sense here.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I agreee with the proposals.