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Divine Dimensional Dance 2nd round: Shinza Gods downgrade

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QuasiYuri

They/Them
VS Battles
Retired
6,605
4,142

[[STAFF AND INVITED KNOWLEDGEABLE MEMBERS ONLY]]​

Introduction​

Shinza exist.

I decided to revise it.

This is the 2nd round of first CRT of the series of revisions to come.

Shinza Gods are 1-A.

I think they shouldn't.

Here's why.

Note: Besides the ones we already had, all of the translations you'll see here are provided by either @Qliphoth_Bacikal in the official translation thread or in private and by @TISSG7Redgrave in this same thread. Seriously, it was a huge number of scenes overall, translators are way too undervalued. Big thanks to them.

1-A current reasons​


There are basically two main arguements for Taikyoku to be 1-A to begin with:

Taiji is the root of all things. "Physics" are mere Laws. Taiji is more than just random Laws, since if one became Taiji, all of creation would be affected by it. Because of this and the world showing higher dimensions, Taiji is 1-A.​

Quoting the post itself:

Their laws being "unlimited expansion/overwrite" applies to simply any-D structures. Taikyoku is a force that allows users to paint over all there is or at least exist above and manipulate all existence, it doesn't matter how many "layers" are piled up. This is essentially showcased by Soujirou's attempt to slash Akuro and Yakou's attempt to block Ootake's attack. Taikyoku is something else."

While I'll answer the later part below, let's see what the thing about Taiji being more than "random Laws" and suchlike is. The original post had lots of discord links attached, but I'm lazy so I'll just link the entire scene (in case timestamp doesn't work, it's at 36:30). While the whole scene gives a bit more context, I'll just go with what was actually used in the post.

"Of course, in this World, a near infinite number of Laws exist, it doesn't mean that each one of those can be called Taikyoku

In reality, cutlery carries a Law called "cutting", fire has a Law called "burning". In the case of the Law that exists while underwater, something like pulmonary respiration cannot happen. Such assorted Laws are mere physics.

What's important is scale, density. The denomination of the form the Law takes is, by standard, "universe", therefore, getting to become an independent World is Takyoku's definition.

It's not difficult talk at all. If the aforementioned Law that exists underwater were to change into Taikyoku, All of Creation's underwater areas would also be changed to comply.

My own Law which lets me gain total control of all things in Creation, my own Law that disconnects me from all things in Creation is Taikyoku.

This Law is called a Colour, it's decision is a man's thought. What oneself longs for, what oneself would want to become. Such prayers and desires, called Cravings, become the driving force behind the genesis of Taikyoku."


Not every laws are Taiji. They mostly are mere physical phenomenons that just "happen". Taiji in different in that it's fueled by one's desire, a desire taking precedence over the world and disconnecting yourself from it. The power of Taiji is great enough to affect All of Creation.

First thing is that, while this is all cool, it doesn't hint "a conceptual or existential level" of transcendance. In fact it doesn't even talk about a transcendance factor. All that is said is that your law would take over all of creation and be disconnected to it. Anyone with good law manipulation and a range equating that of the setting could do the exact same. Of course Gudou Gods do have the fact that they are freed from the world's law and all even more, but nothing 1-A with that; and it wasn't used for the "upgrade" anyway.

Second one is that we already have similar explanations of the same phenomenon, which is that of Be'riah. Briah/Creation Figment is, in essence, nothing but a downscaled version of your Emanation, Taiji. You have the rejection of laws, the fact that you aren't limited by physics, etc... And the Aziluth degree is basically seen as your Briah but boosted (with the Briah and Aziluth info log mentionning how Aziluth is like "your creation figment is now universal" for Hegemony).

Of course it's a simplification. Gods have abilities such as Legion that no Briah users can access. However, the basic idea of Taiji used here is the exact as the one used for Briah. The only difference is truly the range/power.

Why does it matters? Well, Shinza Gods are currently at their tier because they are supposed to meet the "Characters who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy realms or states that fully transcend infinitely-layered hierarchies and/or dimensional levels on a conceptual or existential level," criteria.

Problem here is that if it was the case, if one's emanation is conceptually above everything, it merely being downscaled wouldn't change a thing. Creation Figment still reject the entire world, even going against the laws of the actual god, albeit for a short time. Yet it wouldn't give any form of 1-A rating.

In both cases, it is a "mere rewrite" of pre-existing laws just like in the first point. Not a form of transcendance of your law, and absolutely not a 1-A one.

Throne being Chō-Jigen, which apparently refers to "Beyond-Dimensional"​

If you check the meaning, while Chō-Jigen words are litteraly "Transcend/Super/Ultra/Hyper" and "Dimensions", it merely means Transdimensional. In fact, I think I never saw Chō Jigen (超次元) be used for anything remotely similar to 1-A.

https://www.wordsense.eu/超次元/

Which just means something higher than 3-D (which is why Solaris from Sonic isn't 1-A, or part of why Tenchi Muyo was downgraded).

https://www.wordsense.eu/transdimensional

Of course, if just refuting what was said in this post was enough, it wouldn't have passed. So let's go to the actual important part of this post. You can also consider this one as optionnal (or as a mere extention of the introduction) if it helps, since it's not really the main focus.

Evidences linking to 1-B / Higher Dimensionality​

Tbh most if not all the evidences against 1-A can be summed in two word: Higher dimensions. They are a big part of why Shinza is at the tier it is, and hopefully, it is a term loved by the verse.

Gods higher dimensionnal nature​

One of the most obvious case I can think of is that of Tenma Akuro, a Hadou God (pseudo one), is litteraly stated to be higher dimensional; with his scene being the evidence of dimensions having a Reality-Fiction difference.

なのに無傷 。 まったく無傷 。 薄皮一枚切り裂けない 。 それは紫織の 拳を受け止めたときと同様で 、 頑強さと言うより別位相の物理を目に したかのようだった
"And yet, he was unharmed. Completely unharmed. Not even a thin layer of skin was torn off. It was the same as when he received Shiori's fist, and it was as if I saw another phase of physics rather than stubbornness."


喩えるなら 、 絵の中でどれだけ猛火を描写しようと 、 それが現実の 人間を燃やせるわけがないのと同じ 。
To put it in another way, no matter how raging the fire is depicted in a painting, it can't burn a real person.


立っている場所がそもそも違うという断絶感。
A sense of disconnection, that the place where we are standing isn't the same to begin with.


そして 、 絵に現実は害せなくても 、 現実が絵を破壊することは容易 に出来る 。
And even if the picture can't harm the reality, reality can easily destroy the picture.


高次元から低次元への攻撃は 、 赤子の手を捻るよりも通しやすい 。
An attack from a higher dimension to a lower dimension is easier to get through than twisting a baby's hand.


I can see an arguement like "The difference between them is just referred like Higher-Dimensional/Lower-Dimensional difference, that doesn't have to mean they are bound by dimensions" being made (can see it because someone already said this before).

The previous thread justified it as "Interestingly, the difference between Soujirou and Akuro was actually called "Phase Difference" which, despite being visibly the same, is a gap much greater in scale compared to Dimensional Difference. This could also be simplified as "Taikyoku vs Non-Taikyoku difference".

Which could make sense, if you ignored the context. First thing Soujiro mentions about Akuto is how he has seen "another phase of physics rather than stubbornness", which clearly implies the charecter in question being higher dimensional, with it still being within physics, unlike what was argued in the thread which made them keep their rating.

There's also the fact that "phase" (位相) was actually used for the world or Yakou's dimensionnal dislocation/fault, hinting to the fact that it IS meant to indicate higher dimensionnal difference and making the idea of it being something else flat out wrong.

空間すら焼き消すというのなら、彼はその空間そのものに次元の断層を生み出した。
Even if it were to be burnt out, he created a dimensional dislocation in the space itself.

位相を三つは焼き尽くすも、展開された相は七。総てを滅却することは出来ず寸前にて停止する。
Of the seven that were developed, three of the phases were burnt to nothing. It could not destroy them all and stopped just in front of him.


The following quote describing the difference between Higher and Lower dimension to explain what was happening there just further proves it.

Then you have others things pointing toward the higher dimensionnal nature.

Soujirou's Distortion​

And the first of these is Soujiro's Unknown Distortion (which can even cut Tenmas) being stated to be Higher-Dimensional:

基本的な斬撃という水準を遥か超越した一閃。単純な威力や規模という意味ではなく、切断するという面においてより高次元の概念を帯一びているかのようだった。
A slash that goes far beyond the basic level of slashing. It was not simply in term of power and scales, but was more like a higher dimensionnal concept of cutting.


感じる波動は、純粋にただ斬るという一念のみ。
The only thing I feel is pure slashing.


あれは効く、絶対に断つ。詳しく説明はできそうもないが、この剣載はそういうものだと確信した。相手が天魔であろうと関係なく、両断する未来を幻視して、
It'll works, I will definitely cut it. I don't think I can explain it in detail, but I am convinced that this is the case. Imagine a future that cuts off, regardless of whether the opponent is a Tenma,"


If someone doubts the translations, Soujiro's page says roughly the same thing for these scans

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Soujirou_Mibu ("Unknown Distortion" part)

So in addition to Akuro being considered higher dimensional, a higher dimensionnal slash is considered to be able to harm even the Tenmas.

And since we talked about offense, let's talk about defense now.

Madara's dimensionnal barriers​

To go further, Yakou was actually able to block attacks from not only one but overall 3 Tenmas (Morei, Sukuna, Ootake. There's a typo for the last one on his profile btw) with his dimensionnal fault/dislocation/call it how you want. It is something we even acknowledge on his profile
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yakou_Madara

And yes, in all the cases they "had their Taiji on"/was when they were actually using their Law, as you'll see in the scenes.

Morei's flames/Law instance

節操無しが。恥知らずめ。おまえに矜持はないというのか──
Honorless. Shameless. They had no pride in themselves--

ゆえに今直ぐ討たんと旋回する母禮に対し、夜行は牽制の術を放ちながらため息をついた。
Thus Yakou sighed while releasing a restraining technique against Morei (母禮), who turned around immediately.

変わらない不遜な笑みと、視線だけで焼却する魔の眼光が交差する。
That unchanging arrogant smile intersected with the demonic eyes that can incinerate in their line of sight.

「相も変わらずつれないな。いったい誰と戦っている?」
"This has not changed. Who are you fighting?"

「御身の相手は、この私だぞ母禮殿」
"Your opponent is me, Morei-dono."

「どけいッ!」
"Out of my way!!"

大喝と共に、雷と炎の剣が眼前にある物すべてを薙ぎ払っていく。
With a thunderous roar, the swords of lightning and fire reaped everything in her sight.

宙にある大気、僅かな塵芥、更には空間そのものさえも消滅してのけるほどの業火。
The atmosphere in the air, small amounts of dust, even space itself were being extinguished.

以前夜行が相対した時に勝負を決した攻撃に、勝るとも劣らないその連撃は――
The continuous attack was no less than the attack that decided the match against Yakou previously--

されど、もはや届かない。
But it no longer came.

空間すら焼き消すというのなら、彼はその空間そのものに次元の断層を生み出した。
Even if it were to be burnt out, he created a dimensional dislocation in the space itself.

位相を三つは焼き尽くすも、展開された相は七。総てを滅却することは出来ず寸前にて停止する。
Of the seven that were developed, three of the phases were burnt to nothing. It could not destroy them all and stopped just in front of him.

「――──」
"---"

驚愕は止められたことではなかった。これらの背を押すアレの存在、それをいま確信したから….
Her astonishment did not stop there. She was certain that there was something behind them.

「一度見せながら殺し損ねたのは失敗だったな。御身らの法、すでに私には読めている」
"It was a mistake to not kill me after showing it once. Your Law (法) has already been read by me."



Sukuna + Ootake instance


両面の鬼が大地を揺るがし、三つ首の虎が死の息を吐く。
The two-sided Oni shook the earth, and the three-headed tiger let out a breath of death.


収束する波動に天地鳴動が引き起こされた。
The converging surge caused heaven and earth to shake.

攻撃の予備動作に生じる圧力、それのみで兵が次々と身体を潰され、ひしゃげて散る。
The pressure created by the preliminary movements of the attack was enough to crush the bodies of the soldiers one after another, causing them to crumble and scatter.

血の花が咲き乱れる中、随神相が見下ろす先は豆粒の如き二人の男。
In the midst of blooming blood, the Kamunagara (随神相) stared at the two men who looked like peas in a pod.

宿儺は四つの銃口でそれを狙い──
大獄は口蓋から暗い破滅の光を凝縮し──
Sukuna (宿儺) aimed their four muzzles at them--
Ootake (大獄) condenses the dark light of destruction from his palate--

遥か上空から見下ろした試験は傲慢の極みだろうか。否、これこそ鬼神。
Was this the arrogance of those who look down from above as a test? No, this was the Kishin (鬼神).

人の都合を欠片の解さず路傍の蟻よと踏み砕く、天空の頂きに腰掛ける者の特権なのだ。
This was the privilege of those who atop the heavens, they who do not care of the conveniences of others, crushing them like ants on a roadside.

巻き添えに弱卒の屍を撒き散らしながら迫る破壊光。
The light of destruction approached while scattering the corpse of weak soldiers in the way.

小国ならば滅亡必至の烈しき負の閃光を前に──
In the face of this negative flash of light, a small country would inevitably face extinction--

「笑止千万──侮りすぎだ」
"So preposterous--you underestimate us."

躱す必要一切無しと、応えたのは摩多羅夜行。
It was Yakou Madara who had responded without hesitation.

雅にかざした掌にて具現したのは時空の暇いとまによる障壁。
What was embodied in the palm of his hand that was held gracefully was a barrier of space-time.

随神相の一撃さえ、そよ風の如しと防ぎきった。
Even the blow of the Kamunagara can be repelled as if it were like a gentle breeze.



And a little Ootake one (although in this case it was also because of them having the same Colour so it's not as good of a feat as the two previous. Take it as a bonus).

かつて用いた次元断層による防御は、同種の波動により大獄の破滅を相殺した。
The defense of the dimensional dislocation (次元断層) used before offset the destruction of Ootake (大獄) with the same kind of surge (波動).


So we have dimensionnal fault/barrier/dislocation actually blocking Gods attacks, which support the idea of higher dimensionality for Gods in general and them being around something like 1-B, in opposition to what they currently are.

Miscellaneous stuff​

Now there's others things supporting this, but small enough to all be in the same category.

-Continuing on Madara, there's the fact that you can't understand Taiji without reaching it, because you are faced with a geometric space that only those with divinity can understand which is even directly linked to Taiji, implying once again the Gods/Taiji relationship with dimensions (we also acknowledge it in Yakou's profile).

「行かなくては……夜行様の元に」
"I need to go...to Yakou-sama."

そう思い、一歩踏み出した途端に世界が一変した。
The world changed completely as soon as she thought of it and took the first step.

複雑に編まれた曼荼羅模様。
It changed into an intricately knitted mandala (曼荼羅) pattern.

圧倒的な、到達したもの以外の理解を拒む幾何学空間。
An overwhelming geometric space that prevents those from understanding it other than those who have reached it.

曰く太極。それは御前試合を終えた折、この視点に摘み上げられた記憶そのままの姿だった。
Taikyoku (太極), it was called. It was exactly as she recalled when she was taken from this perspective after the Gozenjiai was over.

いや、正確にはより完成度を増しているのだろう。
No, it was more precise to say that it had become more complete.

なぜなら龍水も感じている。この絵図、この曼荼羅、ここに必要なものは後一つしかないと、半ば呆然としながら直感し──
Ryuusui also felt it. This picture, this mandala, with an instinct she had while partially dazed, knew that there was one more thing she had to do--



-While it's considered outside of everything and all, the Twilight Beach is stated to be a place with frozen time (the constant everlasting, unchanging etc... stuff coming from this too), even being called "another temporal plane".

I'm mentionning this because the beach is the singularity of the world of Foreknowledge. Meaning it would go against the idea of 1-A transcendance over all concepts and be more logic with everything above (I know that you can technically be 1-A and have time under the current system, but another evidence is never a bad thing).

-Last comes from Paradise Lost, with Angels and anything related such as Sin (which we scales directly to the Throne, the Abyss it is located in and the Sefirot) being constantly stated to gain higher-dimensionnal power from it. Something we already accept since it is on their profiles (the explanations they have also are pretty neat, so you can take a look at them too). This also include Keter, realm of the Throne being called higher-dimensionnal as well as these higher dimensionnal powers being able to kill Gods in Lyle's case.
I could also include stuff like the hole to the Singularity being called a "dimensional hole" in K3 or the different levels of the Singularity being called different dimensions, but it would just be using the word again when I think that what's in the post is more than enough.

Conclusion​

Overall, I think that Shinza Gods should be downgraded to something around 1-B (either thanks to Yakou's feats or the Singularity) because of the following points:

-The idea of "Their laws being "unlimited expansion/overwrite" applies to simply any-D structures. Taikyoku is a force that allows users to paint over all there is or at least exist above and manipulate all existence, it doesn't matter how many "layers" are piled up." is law manipulation on the level on the setting, not a form of transcendance, and especially not an 1-A one.This is without considering the points below.

-The Throne being Chō Jigen (超次元) somehow meaning 1-A is wrong. It just means transdimensional, which apply to anything above the third dimension.

-Higher dimensionnal nature for the Gods

-Higher dimensionnal attack being able to hurt them

-Higher dimensionnal barrier blocking their attacks

-Godhood being linked to the comprehension of higher geometric space

-Minor evidences Singularity being called a temporal plane in Dies Irae or basically just being another higher dimension in ParaLost.

Basically, we put Shinza Gods, the Singularity and the Throne as 1-A because of being supposedly conceptually above all higher dimensions no matter how much, while in fact they are on a higher dimensionnal level themselves, and were both shown and stated to be countered or hurt by attacks of this nature.

Now let's see how it'll goes. May it not be another 7 pages war nor the 4 pages mess that happened.
Let's try to use more constructed arguments and scans while being civilised this time.
 
@Tony_di_bugalu should preferrably be invited, since he's a fairly knowledgeable member on Shinza Banshou.

That said, I'm neutral for now.
 
In term of non-staff and all, I think the following members would be good to invite too:

-Darkmash (Did last Shinza thread)
-Birgi126 (helped me with the basis of this CRT)
-Pain_to12 (said they have some arguments to counter or something)
 
You should probably not ping Warren, he left VBW and from what ive heard from him has no plans returning anytime soon.

I also know that Bambu wont shownup either as he refuses to take part in anything related to Shinza.
 
You should probably not ping Warren, he left VBW and from what ive heard from him has no plans returning anytime soon.

I also know that Bambu wont shownup either as he refuses to take part in anything related to Shinza.
Warren still visits at times, but we are derailing.
 
Warren and QB are unlikely to come tbh.

Anyway firstly as was pointed out by Alrfy the tenma morei was after yakou awakened his tengan and ootake was broken until he obtained taiji.

Simply for mentioning having higher dimensions/geographical shapes shouldn't be what downgrades a verse when its more to describe the state the EEs are on in comparison to the tenmas (aka they don't get a single scratch thanks to time armor).

"Of course, in this World, a near infinite number of Laws exist, it doesn't mean that each one of those can be called Taikyoku



This quote is very VERY wrong because he says infinite that so this misinformation needs to bloody stop ffs.

The very fact that he mentions all laws and we know how there are higher dimensions within the cosmology thanks to PL and the sephiroth tree as well are something that exists within the series but no matter how many dimensions exist they are simply concepts and part of the lowest part of the world the multiverse. All these laws that make up the lowest floor are inferior to the singularity, throne and especially taiji. I mean we know taiji is the origin of all things shows that they are not bound by the dimensions of the multiverse since they are above it like the singularity and throne (unless u are somehow telling me that's the ******* case which is dumb even after calling the multiverse below a mere picture).

太極――陰陽道における万物の元始であり、宇宙の中心点を指す概念。彼ら御門の人間にとっては常識的な単語だが、その意味するとこは茫漠としてはっきりしない。
 陳腐に言えば究極のようなものだから、そこがどのようなものであり、知れば何が出来るようになるというのか、具体的な解がないのである。

The Taiji - the origin of all things in the Onmyoudou and the concept of the center point of the universe. It's a word that is common knowledge to the Mikado's, but its meaning is vague and unclear.
 It is a cliché to say that it is the ultimate, so there is no concrete solution as to what it is and what you can do if you know it.

You are using a time arguement very badly but I can also say the throne has no time too which moots such a thing (and don't say ren's shit is time stop because its bloody stagnation also its in DI so you cant use the argument its in KKK because the narration gave that statement).

Tldr; Just using the words dimensions to describe smth shouldn't just automatically downgrade a verse especially when the main part in which Taikyoku was stated to be the origin of all things right above which would include higher dimensions that exist within the cosmology
 
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Warren and QB are unlikely to come tbh.

Anyway firstly as was pointed out by Alrfy the tenma morei was after yakou awakened his tengan and ootake was broken until he obtained taiji.

Simply for mentioning having higher dimensions/geographical shapes shouldn't be what downgrades a verse when its more to describe the state the EEs are on in comparison to the tenmas (aka they don't get a single scratch thanks to time armor).
I explained in the last thread that Yakou saying Morei's true name and reading her law happened either in another fight or after the feat.

Ootake breaking Yakou's barrier doesn't prove Taiji inherent superiority to them, since his Kamunagara aka the manifestation of his law was blocked by the same barriers prior to the fight. It's just Ootake being strong.

Also it absolutely wasn't talking about the Time Armor, as shown in the OP. You need proof of this.
"Of course, in this World, a near infinite number of Laws exist, it doesn't mean that each one of those can be called Taikyoku
This quote is very VERY wrong because he says infinite that so this misinformation needs to bloody stop ffs.
You litteraly provided the raws for it WITH the kanji for "near".
The very fact that he mentions all laws and we know how there are higher dimensions within the cosmology thanks to PL and the sephiroth tree as well are something that exists within the series but no matter how many dimensions exist they are simply concepts and part of the lowest part of the world the multiverse. All these laws that make up the lowest floor are inferior to the singularity, throne and especially taiji. I mean we know taiji is the origin of all things shows that they are not bound by the dimensions of the multiverse since they are above it like the singularity and throne (unless u are somehow telling me that's the ******* case which is dumb even after calling the multiverse below a mere picture).
It's explanation without any scans backing it up.
太極――陰陽道における万物の元始であり、宇宙の中心点を指す概念。彼ら御門の人間にとっては常識的な単語だが、その意味するとこは茫漠としてはっきりしない。
 陳腐に言えば究極のようなものだから、そこがどのようなものであり、知れば何が出来るようになるというのか、具体的な解がないのである。

The Taiji - the origin of all things in the Onmyoudou and the concept of the center point of the universe. It's a word that is common knowledge to the people of the Gate, but its meaning is vague and unclear.
 It is a cliché to say that it is the ultimate, so there is no concrete solution as to what it is and what you can do if you know it.
It's just a creation feat for the current iteration of the world. Nothing about it gives 1-A
You are using a time arguement very badly but I can also say the throne has no time too which moots such a thing (and don't say ren's shit is time stop because its bloody stagnation also its in DI so you cant use the argument its in KKK because the narration gave that statement).
Just saying I use it badly without more argument doesn't help. Also the Throne isn't the Singularity.
Tldr; Just using the words dimensions to describe smth shouldn't just automatically downgrade a verse especially when the main part in which Taikyoku was stated to be the origin of all things right above which would include higher dimensions that exist within the cosmology
Being the origin of thing isn't enough for transcendance. And being stated and shown to be affected by higher dimensions when your justification is that it CAN'T happen is more than enough to get a downgrade.
 
Btw it would be better to not just say "based on what is said in the last thread..." since this thread is made to restart the whole thing.

So that's why I'll repost the japanese text for the "it says infinite not near" despite this being supposed to be solved already.

無論、世に法則といったものは無限に近く存在するし、それら一つ一つが太極というわけではない。

And as you can see, 近く is here. Not that it matters much.
 
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Simply for mentioning having higher dimensions/geographical shapes shouldn't be what downgrades a verse when its more to describe the state the EEs are on in comparison to the tenmas (aka they don't get a single scratch thanks to time armor).
Again, the post explains why this doesn’t just refer to how Tenma’s are compared to EE and is literak about the higher dimensional statement. Not to say that is not the only higher-d statement there.
And describing beings who are given 1-A tier because they will be above any extansions of higher dimensions as higher dimensional directly counters the main reasoning behind them being 1-A.
"Of course, in this World, a near infinite number of Laws exist, it doesn't mean that each one of those can be called Taikyoku
Yuri already explained how kanji says “near infinite” but even ignoring that, this point has no relevance whatsoever to Gods being 1-A or not, it is just nitpicking.
but no matter how many dimensions exist they are simply concepts and part of the lowest part of the world the multiverse.
You just say it to be such, no quote actuallu proves this.
but I can also say the throne has no time too which moots such a thing
and contradictions to that can also be presented, so go on, even if you say that it can be countered.
 
There's also some problems with Redgrave translation. Like translating 御門 to "people of the Gate" despite it being Ryuusui's family name for example (and even if you put it on the fact that the translation was made too litteraly, you would get something more like "honorable gate").

I don't want to doubt Redgrave translation, but 2 wrong in 2 sentences isn't really great.
 
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using her true name

makes it even worse for the tenmas you know...because theirs laws are WEAKENED from loser mold ffs (for those who don't know saying true name of tenmas = bad because ren lost to him).

Jezuz this is a reason they are called Morei and Akuro instead of using their real names.

You keep insisting on that when the contexts was given already refusing to even look at the fact he blocked it only via other factors otherwise it didn't save him from getting bamboozled by ******* ootake's fists only working when Yakou awakened as Hajun's shit cleaner.

無論、世に法則といったものは無限に近く存在するし、それら一つ一つが太極というわけではない。

I'm pretty sure this translates infinite even if there is 近く存在するし which says there are many that exists. Even if we use near why the **** are we very VERY much excluding dimensional laws SO ******* conveniently

 太極とは何ぞやと言われれば、端的に法則と言うしかない。
 すなわちその世界における絶対法であり、そうした決まり事を定めた張本人を指す。

It evens says that it is the absolute law of the world even.

It is the apex of the ******* cosmology literally telling us that everything within the multiverse is just a picture that cannot harm reality for a reason. Remember the high 1-A downgrade where even the singularity is above the "picture"?????? That's at least above the layers of dimensions that exist in the ******* multiverse so are we doing to even ignore DI's statements?

Being the origin of thing isn't enough for transcendance. And being stated and shown to be affected by higher dimensions when your justification is that it CAN'T happen is more than enough to get a downgrade.
This headcanon is pretty bad in general. Like you HAVE to ignore everything stated about taiji in general, the mechanics on it and how it is capable of controlling all things in creation even as a colorless type. Literally even if you don't have an explicit statement of it being beyond dimensions I'm bloody sure we can piece this together when the cosmology has higher dimensions but is considered part of the universe of the setting and only as part of the painting.
and contradictions to that can also be presented, so go on, even if you say that it can be countered.
What the **** are you on? The throne has no time so where the **** are you getting it HAS time?????? Pls if anyone uses ren's shit i swear no one read his note.

Again, the post explains why this doesn’t just refer to how Tenma’s are compared to EE and is literak about the higher dimensional statement. Not to say that is not the only higher-d statement there.
And describing beings who are given 1-A tier because they will be above any extansions of higher dimensions as higher dimensional directly counters the main reasoning behind them being 1-A.
Again what's wrong with saying they are higher D when its again to ******* explain how weak the EE are like for **** sake Mibu can't even hurt them for shit until taiji happened. If this is all it takes to downgrade 1-As then we should downgrade everyone that HAS a higher D statement because clearly they are still bound by dimensions.

Edit: Yeah i forgot to cross check names so **** me.

And christ I'm still having uni
 
using her true name
makes it even worse for the tenmas you know...because theirs laws are WEAKENED from loser mold ffs (for those who don't know saying true name of tenmas = bad because ren lost to him).
My point is that he only said her true name after, not when he used his barriers.
You keep insisting on that when the contexts was given already refusing to even look at the fact he blocked it only via other factors otherwise it didn't save him from getting bamboozled by ******* ootake's fists only working when Yakou awakened as Hajun's shit cleaner.
Out of 4 uses his barriers got destroyed one time. Also you didn't bring any proof of what you are saying. It's not because you are saying "bamboozled by ******* ootake's fist" that it somehow make an argument w/o proof better.

無論、世に法則といったものは無限に近く存在するし、それら一つ一つが太極というわけではない。

I'm pretty sure this translates infinite even if there is 近く存在するし which says there are many that exists. Even if we use near why the **** are we very VERY much excluding dimensional laws SO ******* conveniently

 太極とは何ぞやと言われれば、端的に法則と言うしかない。
 すなわちその世界における絶対法であり、そうした決まり事を定めた張本人を指す。

It evens says that it is the absolute law of the world even.
It's not anywhere enough for 1-A transcendance. And I already explained how it was referring to the fact that laws are rewritten. The entire first part of the OP already answer this.
Also there's the fact that infinite is hyperbolic af + if we accepted this as enough a lot of dudes like Arceus would be 1-A.
It is the apex of the ******* cosmology literally telling us that everything within the multiverse is just a picture that cannot harm reality for a reason. Remember the high 1-A downgrade where even the singularity is above the "picture"?????? That's at least above the layers of dimensions that exist in the ******* multiverse so are we doing to even ignore DI's statements?
I'm not ignoring any statements. I just calmly explain things with proof. Something you aren't doing in this part.
This headcanon is pretty bad in general. Like you HAVE to ignore everything stated about taiji in general, the mechanics on it and how it is capable of controlling all things in creation even as a colorless type. Literally even if you don't have an explicit statement of it being beyond dimensions I'm bloody sure we can piece this together when the cosmology has higher dimensions but is considered part of the universe of the setting and only as part of the painting.
Calling it a headcanon without proofs? Not good.
However I could call what you are saying an headcanon, since it goes against proof I presented + I already explained this once again.
What the **** are you on? The throne has no time so where the **** are you getting it HAS time?????? Pls if anyone uses ren's shit i swear no one read his note.
Nobody talked about Ren, also chill out.
Again what's wrong with saying they are higher D when its again to ******* explain how weak the EE are like for **** sake Mibu can't even hurt them for shit until taiji happened. If this is all it takes to downgrade 1-As then we should downgrade everyone that HAS a higher D statement because clearly they are still bound by dimensions.
... Did you even read the OP? Mibu's Distorsion is litteraly said to be able to cut Tenmas.
Also we don't give Beyonder 1-A because dude is stated to be InfinitD among others thing; Shinza isn't getting a special treatment.
 
Also please, don't make me repeat the fact that we're supposed to keep being chill, civilised and pretty much everything else I said in the last thread.
If you can't do that, Idk, take a breath? Do something else, chill a bit, and come back when you think you can provide scans with constructed arguments while staying cool.
 
What the **** are you on? The throne has no time so where the **** are you getting it HAS time??????
Satanael literally killed Muzan with time manipulation, no one is talking about Ren here.
Again what's wrong with saying they are higher D when its again to ******* explain how weak the EE are
More like they are to explain nature of Tenma’s and why they are so strong, you keep insisting on the idea that it is just to show EE is weak so it isn’t literal which is just your headcanon.
And again, there are other examples of Higher-Dimensionality in the thread.
If this is all it takes to downgrade 1-As then we should downgrade everyone that HAS a higher D statement because clearly they are still bound by dimensions.
We most likely should if we aren’t already, but that aside why are you acting like that is only thing mentioned in the thread? Thread gives several reasons for that.
 
I'm still unsure if I should be involved here, especially when this verse and relevant material (like translations and such) will just remind me of a certain someone.

This unfortunately came to be at the wrong time for me as well as Yumiko, but this wiki nor this verse revolves around me. I will not stonewall or gatekeep here.

Regardless of what happens here, if its genuinely agreed upon I will accept it whether I like it or not. Besides, it may not matter in the end for me, anyway.
 
I'm still unsure if I should be involved here, especially when this verse and relevant material (like translations and such) will just remind me of a certain someone.

This unfortunately came to be at the wrong time for me as well as Yumiko, but this wiki nor this verse revolves around me. I will not stonewall or gatekeep here.

Regardless of what happens here, if its genuinely agreed upon I will accept it whether I like it or not. Besides, it may not matter in the end for me, anyway.
Yumiko? Sorry for this either way.
 
You litteraly provided the raws for it WITH the kanji for "near
This is taken from dies irae (OG English version), I would have posted the scans but I dont know how to post an image here(would be nice if anyone can show me how)
Anyway here is what is said in the scan

"The serpent had been driven mad by eternity, all it could find beyond the infinite concept constituting the knowledge and wisdom of the universe was a dead end of utter and complete folly"
 
This is taken from dies irae (OG English version), I would have posted the scans but I dont know how to post an image here(would be nice if anyone can show me how)
Anyway here is what is said in the scan

"The serpent had been driven mad by eternity, all it could find beyond the infinite concept constituting the knowledge and wisdom of the universe was a dead end of utter and complete folly"
I know what scan you are talking about, but it doesn’t change Madara’s statement saying “Near-infinite”, and considering that Reinhard ve Mercirius fight had some unreliable narration (Like city level azitulth Reinhard) I would say Yakou’s statement is more true here.
 
This is taken from dies irae (OG English version), I would have posted the scans but I dont know how to post an image here(would be nice if anyone can show me how)
Anyway here is what is said in the scan

"The serpent had been driven mad by eternity, all it could find beyond the infinite concept constituting the knowledge and wisdom of the universe was a dead end of utter and complete folly"
I know about this one yeah.
Although like I said "infinite" is pretty hyperbolic.
Especially when this exact same screen uses hyperbole like "eternity" for something which sure isn't eternal.

Note that it matters much regardless, since having an infinite or near infinite statement isn't gonna be the decisive factor.
 
Also to post a picture you click on the symbol between the smiley and the link or do Ctrl+P, then you put the picture's link in what appears, and everything works just fine normally.
 
I know what scan you are talking about, but it doesn’t change Madara’s statement saying “Near-infinite”, and considering that Reinhard ve Mercirius fight had some unreliable narration (Like city level azitulth Reinhard) I would say Yakou’s statement is more true here.
Never said it changed madara's statement, just pointing it out

There was no such thing as city level Reinhard in dies irae (when Schreiber nuked Berlin casually at the beginning), hope you are not talking about when he closed off the city from the rest of creation??
 
Never said it changed madara's statement, just pointing it out

There was no such thing as city level Reinhard in dies irae (when Schreiber nuked Berlin casually at the beginning), hope you are not talking about when he closed off the city from the rest of creation??
He just means that a lot of statement during the fight were not litteral, which include stuff like saying that some attacks were strong enough to destroy a city despite already reaching Aziluth.
 
I know about this one yeah.
Although like I said "infinite" is pretty hyperbolic.
Especially when this exact same screen uses hyperbole like "eternity" for something which sure isn't eternal.

Note that it matters much regardless, since having an infinite or near infinite statement isn't gonna be the decisive factor.
Yes it actually doesnt matter
I think the eternity was from mercurius having reset the multiverse so many times he lost count

Okay so I am still gathering my argument, I wil be honest I have not read PL, so I might ignore your points there since I don't really know what happened there just basic knowledge.

But I will try to answer some and also present my reasons for a 1-A structure
 
Yes it actually doesnt matter
I think the eternity was from mercurius having reset the multiverse so many times he lost count

Okay so I am still gathering my argument, I wil be honest I have not read PL, so I might ignore your points there since I don't really know what happened there just basic knowledge.
Eternity was referring to the resets driving him mad yup.

PL is more of a minor supporting part, so no worries.
 
There was no such thing as city level Reinhard in dies irae (when Schreiber nuked Berlin casually at the beginning), hope you are not talking about when he closed off the city from the rest of creation??
I am not saying Reinhard is city level at any point, I am just saying that in his fight with Mercurius there was such statement which makes the narration in that fight less reliable
Here is the scan.
 
Killed muzan with time paradox

Um its more like he paradoxed himself to erase the original sin and open the gates of heaven iirc

More like they are to explain nature of Tenma’s and why they are so strong, you keep insisting on the idea that it is just to show EE is weak so it isn’t literal which is just your headcanon.
And again, there are other examples of Higher-Dimensionality in the thread.
You DO know time armor is a thing RIGHT????? And all you are doing is saying higher dimensional wording = must be confined by dimensions when taiji is NOT and while its not explicit one should be able to put two and two together....

... Did you even read the OP? Mibu's Distorsion is litteraly said to be able to cut Tenmas.
Cut...the tenmas...I need to jump off a volcano i swear. Because firstly he tried to hit akuro and that didn't work and even if he could it was likely a tumor boost/Kikei boost.
Out of 4 uses his barriers got destroyed one time. Also you didn't bring any proof of what you are saying. It's not because you are saying "bamboozled by ******* ootake's fist" that it somehow make an argument w/o proof better.
You forgot sleepy gave how the 3rd time he used it? I guess short-term memory loss is a thing too.

吐菩加身依美多女――祓い給え清め給え――寒言神尊利根陀見!」
 横殴りに訪れた一撃を阻むのは、二十四にも及ぶ次元断層。衝撃を相転移する絶対障壁。それが大獄と夜行の間に顕現する。
 過剰と言うしかない対処だった。つい先ほど、随神相の一撃を防いだときさえこの十分の一も練っていない。
 悲鳴にも似た高速真言。最硬度の防咒を施しながら、なおも瞬間移動まで使いながら後退するその挙動。摩多羅夜行ともあろう者が、臆病風に吹かれたのかと嘲笑されても仕方がない。事実、彼もどうしてそこまでしたのか分からない。
 だが、それはこの上もなく正当な対処であり、同時にどうしようもなく意味のない行動だった。
「無駄だ」
 その程度、薄紙ほどの用も成さぬと。山脈を消し飛ばすほどの熱量にも耐えるだろう壁の一枚一枚が、鋼の拳に触れるたび、いとも容易く粉砕される。
 貫通する黒い鉄槌、有象無象の区別なく、ただ在るならば死に絶えさせると直進し、防ぐだけの暇はない。
 ゆえに、そして、成す術もなく──
「教育してやろう。死後を識れ」
 無慈悲な響きと共に、致死の一撃が夜行の心臓へ落下した。
「おお……」
 刹那、生命を砕かれ砂と成る。
 肉片ではなく世界に敷き詰められた砂塵へと。死人の末路へ成り果てて、ここを満たす死の一つへと堕ちていく。
 両腕両脚が乾き砕かれ砂と散った。胸部は衝撃ですでに消失。そこを起点に頭部まで深いひびが走っている。
 後は自然に落下して、そのまま砂となっていくだけ。

tldr; Yakou used his barrier and instantly got murdered by ootake literally dying only to become hajun's hunting dog and gaining the color of his taiji.

It's not anywhere enough for 1-A transcendance. And I already explained how it was referring to the fact that laws are rewritten. The entire first part of the OP already answer this.
Also there's the fact that infinite is hyperbolic af + if we accepted this as enough a lot of dudes like Arceus would be 1-A.
Yeah because its taiji...it overwrites shit with their own color...its...what hadous do??? Like srsly?

Honestly talking about which is ok narration wise and which isn't just makes it look like no one should use it.

This completely hinges on the premise taiji is somehow still tied to dimensions because of all these statements that are more to explain the standing of certain things but like...the multiverse is literally filled with all the concepts that exist even dimensions of the cosmology yet everything like the throne, singularity and taiji are above it unless you are tell me they are also bound by it.
 
You DO know time armor is a thing RIGHT????? And all you are doing is saying higher dimensional wording = must be confined by dimensions when taiji is NOT and while its not explicit one should be able to put two and two together....
Except that this isn't about time armor.
Saying it isn't despite blatant proof of the opposite doesn't help. The fact that you nearly say that it is a personnal interpretation of yours make it even more doubtful.
Cut...the tenmas...I need to jump off a volcano i swear. Because firstly he tried to hit akuro and that didn't work and even if he could it was likely a tumor boost/Kikei boost.
Or you need to read the OP. Also it's something we are acknowledging since a long time anyway.
The fact that you are guessing things doesn't help either.
You have to prove them.
You forgot sleepy gave how the 3rd time he used it? I guess short-term memory loss is a thing too.

吐菩加身依美多女――祓い給え清め給え――寒言神尊利根陀見!」
 横殴りに訪れた一撃を阻むのは、二十四にも及ぶ次元断層。衝撃を相転移する絶対障壁。それが大獄と夜行の間に顕現する。
 過剰と言うしかない対処だった。つい先ほど、随神相の一撃を防いだときさえこの十分の一も練っていない。
 悲鳴にも似た高速真言。最硬度の防咒を施しながら、なおも瞬間移動まで使いながら後退するその挙動。摩多羅夜行ともあろう者が、臆病風に吹かれたのかと嘲笑されても仕方がない。事実、彼もどうしてそこまでしたのか分からない。
 だが、それはこの上もなく正当な対処であり、同時にどうしようもなく意味のない行動だった。
「無駄だ」
 その程度、薄紙ほどの用も成さぬと。山脈を消し飛ばすほどの熱量にも耐えるだろう壁の一枚一枚が、鋼の拳に触れるたび、いとも容易く粉砕される。
 貫通する黒い鉄槌、有象無象の区別なく、ただ在るならば死に絶えさせると直進し、防ぐだけの暇はない。
 ゆえに、そして、成す術もなく──
「教育してやろう。死後を識れ」
 無慈悲な響きと共に、致死の一撃が夜行の心臓へ落下した。
「おお……」
 刹那、生命を砕かれ砂と成る。
 肉片ではなく世界に敷き詰められた砂塵へと。死人の末路へ成り果てて、ここを満たす死の一つへと堕ちていく。
 両腕両脚が乾き砕かれ砂と散った。胸部は衝撃ですでに消失。そこを起点に頭部まで深いひびが走っている。
 後は自然に落下して、そのまま砂となっていくだけ。

tldr; Yakou used his barrier and instantly got murdered by ootake literally dying only to become hajun's hunting dog and gaining the color of his taiji.
Again, you need to really chill. If you can't do that just leave.

And yeah he got murdered in ONE instance. Besides the 4th one which is because of sharing the same color, it still makes 2 instances of Yakou successfully blocking a law.

So you proved that Yakou's barriers aren't an absolute defense which beat everything in the world. Does it go against my point? Sure not.

eah because its taiji...it overwrites shit with their own color...its...what hadous do??? Like srsly?
Honestly talking about which is ok narration wise and which isn't just makes it look like no one should use it.

This completely hinges on the premise taiji is somehow still tied to dimensions because of all these statements that are more to explain the standing of certain things but like...the multiverse is literally filled with all the concepts that exist even dimensions of the cosmology yet everything like the throne, singularity and taiji are above it unless you are tell me they are also bound by it.
It's very simple.

There's proof that it isn't above the concept of dimensions and especially not to an 1-A scale, which you litteraly answer by "c'mon it's obvious even if it's not said".

Litteraly no verse ever got 1-A based on this. Is Arceus 1-A for creating every concept in Pokemon, including the concept of space (which is even said to be that of spatial dimensions too)? Sure not. Shinza isn't a magic exception.

Also we litteraly restarted the thread so that: 1) We can debate calmly like civilised person 2) With scans and good proof that everyone can understand 3) With structured arguments.

So all the things like "it's ******* wrong!" "im gonna jump from a volcano", "short term memory loss lol" and suchlike need to stop. We could be two playing this game, and it wouldn't help anything. If you can't stop this, then what need to be stopped is your involvement.

I'm nearly surprised to see that a staff thread made for these reasons let such behavior continue without a care. Like, what was the point of restarting one if we let the same things repeat themselves?
 
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Um its more like he paradoxed himself to erase the original sin and open the gates of heaven iirc
This is not how Dies Irae Pantheon Prolouge explains it, it says that Satanael used Time Manipulation which created a parallel universe to kill Muzan because he couldn't win fairly:
一つは、無斯を排非除する際に明星が時間逆行という業を使ったこと。

One thing is that Morning Star used time retrograde to eliminate Muzan.

あれによって時間軸の操作が肯定され、そこに繋がる形で可能性世界というものが生まれてしまった。

This affirmed the operation of the time axis, and the possibility world was born in the form connected to it.
PS: I used online translators for this part so if someone who knows Japanese can point this out as incorrect I can concede on it.
You DO know time armor is a thing RIGHT?????
Except Time Armor is not related to this part at all?? This part explains Tenma Psychology.
And all you are doing is saying higher dimensional wording = must be confined by dimensions when taiji is NOT and while its not explicit one should be able to put two and two together....
You fail to prove anything you said here
Cut...the tenmas...I need to jump off a volcano i swear. Because firstly he tried to hit akuro and that didn't work and even if he could it was likely a tumor boost/Kikei boost.
It was his distortion that was stated to be able to cut Tenma's, and this is even pointed by the character profile, at the Unknown Distortion part.
.the multiverse is literally filled with all the concepts that exist even dimensions of the cosmology yet everything like the throne, singularity and taiji are above it unless you are tell me they are also bound by it.
Not only just "being above concept of dimensions" isn't accepted as 1-A by itself, there are indeed proof that they are bound by dimensions which you never properly countered.
 
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