Discussion Thread for Death Battle Episodes 100 and 101 and beyond

[TartaChocholate]

Podcast summary

Thanks for the summary once again, dude!

1.They have a point. Not to mention the name of the technique doesn't mean that it's literally what the technique does, like how Vegeta's Big Bang Attack is not as powerful as a Big Bang. It would be different if it had been stated that the Evil Containment Wave only worked on people of evil heart or something. Besides, two other issues: the animation is for fun as always, and the original name is Mafuba which translates to Demon Sealing Wave, yet it has never been used on demons actually.

2. I can't really say much here given I know little of Naruto, but I have my doubts that clones in Naruto are impossible to distinguish from real people, especially given how sharp senses and figuring out trickery are so essential for ninjas. Might be wrong, though. And gotta say, the fake out in the fight was a pretty cool moment.

3. I thought the question meant something more along the lines of "do battles have to end in death and can't just be KOs or surrenders?". Of course, then it wouldn't be Death Battle. I don't think they are biased, they do make mistakes and all, but they have polished things a lot as time went on. Though, the one exception that does come as iffy is Yang vs Tifa due to the sheer amount of stuff that was off to be just incomplete research, but then again that may not even be their fault.

4. Quite frankly. I dunno, don't wanna sound like a bitter jerk, but Yamcha being a punching bag for mean spirited jokes is kinda getting old, so when people try to ape on that to be funny it comes as groan inducing instead.

5. When you get into physics you notice 94% of authors don't care about them at all with the sheer amount of disasters superpowers would create in real life. To be fair, while I still think Roshi's moon busting is an outlier (due to how King Piccolo leagues above him could only destroy cities for example) by the time DBS rolls along by the simple fact he can scale to grunts strong as Raditz mean he's strong enough to destroy the moon, not to mention how much stronger he should be to be in th Tournament of Power in the first place, as they mention, fighting against other Galaxy level fighters and beyond.

6. I guess also because they are used more like assists and weapons instead of fighting teaming up with the likes of Bayo and Jiraiya, unlike how Donald and Goofy would fight alongside Sora. I do get Cloud's point to an extent as well; true he never summoned in the story and probably it would have been considered if he had done so or had a trademark summon he used repeatedly, also it was season one, Death Battle was still finding its footing. Must be said though, Cloud does canonically have a Summon Materia, he does receive the Shiva Materia as part of the story.

7. Interesting, so Darkseid gets the Anti Life Equation?

 

[Hellbeast1]

That or his True Form (which makes me wonder if Thanos can withstand the Equation)

 

[Jasonsith]

That or his True Form (which makes me wonder if Thanos can withstand the Equation)

The mad titan should have no problem handling ALE. The true question is whether HotU and True form will be allowed.

In terms of battle prowess, HotU Thanos > True Darkseid > Full IG Thanos > ALE Darkseid > Base Darkseid > Base Thanos

So how SA pick the versions of combatants will likely largely affect their verdicts. And imo they will most likely pick True Darkseid > Full IG Thanos

 

[Hellbeast1]

Would Thanos beat the ALE though? Thoough to be fair the ALE is more hax then anything if I'm right.

 

[Jasonsith]

Would Thanos beat the ALE though? Thoough to be fair the ALE is more hax then anything if I'm right.

Feom what I read ALE is claimed to do... Empathic Manipulation where every one will agree to the beliefs of Darkseid.

 

[Mirai-Koichi]

Not gonna lie as a Darkseid fanboy, I've never really seen any impressive feats from the ALE. Final Crisis'.....crisis, was in large part due to DS' true form reaking havoc while the ALE just destroyed free will.

 

[Hellbeast1]

@Jason From what I imagine it also has something to do with Morality Manipulation and some form of Concept hax (Since it supposedly distorts the concept of Free Will)

But yeah the ALE is more super potent hax then AP. It's still impressive though since it's superior to Darkseid's own mind hax so there's that I guess.

 

[Mirai-Koichi]

Also not to get off topic but how would one go about making a character page on the site? Because I noticed a distinct lack of Korg (MARVEL) and I want to change that.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Do you intenionally kill off characters to generate views? No, because then they would have the obvious winner lose every time (*cough* Tifa *cough*). It's controversial by the nature of the show, get over yourselves, fanboys. (Ben then went on to explain to how they could game the system with Voltron vs Megazord as an example)

On a second thought I am confused about this one. The question was along the lines of "do you rig the outcome of your matches?" and was answered with a "No, otherwise the seemingly more powerful character would always win"? Or something else?

Also, did Ben bring Tifa as an example or you're recalling what happened with her and Yang?

I assume that Voltron vs Megazord was an example of how a match could be easily fixed and all that.

 

[TitanCrusher101]

Yang beating Tifa wasn't wrong? Tifa wouldn't beat Yang.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Not gonna lie as a Darkseid fanboy, I've never really seen any impressive feats from the ALE. Final Crisis'.....crisis, was in large part due to DS' true form reaking havoc while the ALE just destroyed free will.

Could you brief me on Final Crisis? Literally forgotten most of it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Tifa wouldn't beat Yang.

You're right. Tifa wouldn't beat Yang. She'd stomp the ever living crap out of her.

 

[The_Smashor]

Yeah. Also on what level are early game FF7 chars, anyway?

 

[Sorvoe551]

@Tarta Yeah, it was more about rigging results. I write down a summary of what they say and insert my own thoughts in parentheses. I mentioned Tifa really quick because that episode is infamously wrong. Ben brought up Voltron vs Megazord like this:

"We could have made Megazord win and gotten twice the views. There are more Power Rangers fans than Voltron fans, so it would have been shared more by happy PR fans. But that isn't right, Voltron would win." I'm paraphrasing, but you get the point.

 

[Sorvoe551]

@Titan Tifa is 4-B, Yang is 8-C. The difference in power is astronomical

 

[TartaChocholate]

@Sorvoe: Ah, I see. My bad. Yeah, I got that when you mentioned the podcast for Ultron and Sigma you were giving just the important points, I got a bit confused in that part regarding on which were Ben's words and which were your thoughts, again my bad >_>

I understand their point regarding rigging matching to please crowds, however IMHO I'd say yes and no; controversial results or content in general do get a lot of attention, so them screwing over favorites on porpuse would also get a lot of views (certainly with a lot of bad rep, but VS debates get you heat by nature). I do believe they play fair and their questionable results are genuine mistakes though.

 

[Jasonsith]

@Sorvoe: Ah, I see. My bad. Yeah, I got that when you mentioned the podcast for Ultron and Sigma you were giving just the important points, I got a bit confused in that part regarding on which were Ben's words and which were your thoughts, again my bad >_>

I understand their point regarding rigging matching to please crowds, however IMHO I'd say yes and no; controversial results or content in general do get a lot of attention, so them screwing over favorites on porpuse would also get a lot of views (certainly with a lot of bad rep, but VS debates get you heat by nature). I do believe they play fair and their questionable results are genuine mistakes though.

Sure they make genuine mistakes, like no MHS+ for Marvel small town characters except Quicksilver, and lol Wonder Woman sword that slices everything. (All DC high-tier heralds legit scale in some way to The Flash and Superman though.)

And yes making controversial verdicts on crap shoot matchups do create extra juicy controversial debates and clicks. (Carnage vs Lucy and Nightwing vs Daredevil are good examples.) But they could do good research and get similar results (like Roshi vs Jiraiya).

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Smashor, iirc, Early game Cloud and Tifa aren't that much weaker than Zack Fair in canon. Tifa does have some super casual Tier 6 feats early/mid game so I hear.

 

[The_Smashor]

Oh so basically it's a stomp no matter what. The power of sponsorships. Also, since Rooster Teeth and Screw Attack are working together, doesn't that mean that Agent Carolina would canonically defeat The Meta in a fight?

 

[Hellbeast1]

I doubt it (mainly because I disagree with the fight personally)

 

[MexicanJesus69]

I bring proves that Infinity Guantlet and Anti-Life Ecuation (And probably true form and Hotu) will appear. Also what models are going to be used in the 3D Fight,

All the proves are in this image


Wait, dabbing isnt the way Darkseid activates the True Form?

 

[Hellbeast1]

Fool dabbing is the Anti Life Equation

 

[TartaChocholate]

@JasonSmith: I don't really disagree with you, though that is a different issue. I think they play legit, but they have dropped the ball quite a bit, especially in seasons 2 and 3. Things have been improving in season 4 and especially season 5 where they at least try to cover all things, more consistent use of scaling, less "oh my X does so much stuff, Y most likely doesn't match that" and when they don't consider something they at least explain why. Mistakes in research are still around, but VS debate can get pretty tricky in itself.

@The Smashor:

The are other issues with Yang vs Tifa aside the tiers: Speed, Fighting Skill, Technique and Combat Experience were completely ignored. The measuring of the advantages and disadvantages in combat both fighters had against each other was incredibly shallow; for example: how well do their fighting styles worked against each other, such as whether Tifa's feints and use of kicks would mean an advantage; or how do their ranged options measure up between Yang's firepower and Tifa's magic. The canon weaknesses Yang was stated to have back then also weren't brought up: having difficulties against opponents who used too many kicks, her impulsive and bullheaded fighting style and her bad temper.

Also notably is that they mentioned that Tifa's Premium Heart boosted her base attack around 5 times more than her Leather Gloves and then how the boost went further as her Limit Gauge filled up, however, this was completely glossed over in the analysis itself.

From what I understad, Aura was also misrepresented, being threated as some sort of Defense Stat that makes you invulnerable to everything below its limit, instead of the force field that can be gradually drained the more is used as shown in the series itself. Also how Yang's semblance was considered to power her up ad infinitum. Yang's base strength and Tifa's durability were also ignored, they just assumed Tifa is fragile because her defensive stats were lower than Cloud's and that Yang's power would eventually always reach the point to make her able to defeat any opponent thanks to her semblance.

Though, to be fair and sad to say, many, many people are under the assumption that bullet dodging and cutting/breaking concrete is the full extent of FFVII's main cast power and they are actually just a bunch of scrubs; thinking only about the feats that we see in Advent Children (and even then the look is superficial, many are unaware that Cloud dodges lightning twice in the movie). It's surprisingly rare to see a non-fan or less serious VS debaters look at the original game and much less the supplemental material.

EDIT: Cleaned up the text a bit for easier reading. =P

 

[MexicanJesus69]

Fool dabbing is the Anti Life Equatio

Are you saying the result of the Anti-Life ecuation is the Dab?

 

[DraycoMakargo]

her impulsive and bullheaded fighting style and her bad temper.

@The Smashor

Another thing to add, besides the fighters' capabilities, is that they made Yang and Tifa out of character. Like Tarta mentioned, Yang has bad temper. For some reason this was given to Tifa, and Yang was annoying her in the fight with "le epic puns." In RWBY, Yang is usually the one to get pissed off while Tifa fights calmly for the most part.

I think they also mis-calc'ed Yang's durability. They were trying to calculate how Yang went flying through a pillar, but instead they used a calculation for if she had gone through the top to bottom of the pillar. It made her durability seem much higher than it should've been, but Tifa still could stomp regardless of which durability was correct.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Death Battle often calculates tons of force rather than tons of TNT equivalent I should add. While force alone can't really be translated to energy, using it in combination with distance launched. Just like how one Joules = 1 Newton-Meter or energy required to launch 1 newton of force over the course of one meter.

 

[Jasonsith]

Death Battle often calculates tons of force rather than tons of TNT equivalent I should add. While force alone can't really be translated to energy, using it in combination with distance launched. Just like how one Joules = 1 Newton-Meter or energy required to launch 1 newton of force over the course of one meter.

They have a mix. They want to compare feats that can be measured in the same units.

Like when comparing two guys pushing boulders and pushing cars as in Leon vs Frank, they measure strength in newtons.

When they are measuring destruction powers like obliterating a space ship or a large planet like in Optimus Prime vs Gundam, they measure AP in tons of TNT.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well yes, but they still typically use Newtons or tons of force for bullets and punches as well. They should at least be using PSI for punches since that's an energy unit that can be converted to Joules rather than a force unit.

 

[TartaChocholate]

@DraycoMakargo: Well, as Medeus mentioned, Death Battle usually uses tons of force instead of TNT like this site, and such was the case for Yang and Tifa's feats (they usually specify when they mean tons of TNT by explicitily saying so). I'm not saying you're wrong, I too have heard that the pillar calculation is questionable, but several versions on why, so I can't give a straight personal spin on that. I know cuz I made that same mistake until WeeklyBattles cleared it up for me >_>

To be fair, IIRC even if the pillar calculation was overblown it was still well below Yang's tiering from back then (and her current one as well, actually), which, from what I remember, was Multi-City Block Level until a somewhat recent revision regarding a Grimm's size. The issue, however, comes when you take Tifa into account; WeeklyBattles told me the Pillar Calculation was actually not even Wall Level and under 1 ton of TNT.

The bigger problem is how Tifa was considered to be so weak despite the redflags that should raise: how could she fight giant combat robots in early game (several of those fights have her as a mandatory party member)? How could she fight the Weapons who created giant craters and destroyed entire towns just by moving around? How she could fight Jenova who did a number on an entire civilization of magic users before the events of the game? How could she fight Safer Sephiroth who Death Battle ackownledged as a Planet Buster? Even if she fought in a team, being too weak would still got have gotten her killed quickly, and as Advent Children shows, canonically the 8 party members fought together.

I understand your gripe regarding personality, I kind of agree that things were leaning there to make Yang look good, but it kind of backfired as well: Yang came accross as a violent sociopath instead of a enthusiasthic and boisterous fighter, something even some RWBY fans have noticed is OoC. Then again DB needs fighters to be in killing mood and not always is easy to pull that, so we get jarring examples such as Kenshiro fighting Jotaro to death for no reason.

 

[Sorvoe551]

Okay, quick question: who was able to survive Darkseid's Omega Beams in DC Comics and how? I can understand WW's bracelets surviving and Batman was agile enough to dodge them (cartoon, I know, but still), but who else can handle them? It seems like they would bypass traditional durability with how they work.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Superman has tanked and resisted a severely held back Darkseid's omega beams. There've also been an instance in which Doomsday survived due to having just one blood cell left which he regenerated from. And afterwards he was seemingly immune to specific Avatar's Omega Beams. Lobo also did a similar Regenerationn feat when blown by the Omega Beams. Batman dodging the Omega Beams was obviously PIS though.

 

[Moritzva]

A lot off topic but nowhere else to say this, I find it funny that out of all controversial Death Battles, there are still a lot our calls agree with, like Majin Buu vs Kirby, kek.

 

[The_Smashor]

We need a Toei Buu profile so we can make that match.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Both Buu and Kirby were heavily downplayed in that episode. The main problem wasn't the outcome, but just the blatantly ignorant of Tier 4 or above or even FTL to Massively FTL+ feats both characters have. Though in Buu's case, it's only Toei version who's Massively FTL+ and he's Tier 3 in that version. Kirby would still stomp canon Buu.

 

[Moritzva]

They got the result right but had shit reasons. Pretty nice animation though, and kickass music.

 

[Sorvoe551]

Should Thanos be able to handle the Omega Beams? I'm guessing his armor and chair can, but I don't know if headshotting Thanos can cause him to disintegrate

 

[Jasonsith]

Should Thanos be able to handle the Omega Beams? I'm guessing his armor and chair can, but I don't know if headshotting Thanos can cause him to disintegrate

Superman, Doomsday and Lobo can survive or even tank it so Thanos should have no problem surviving one or two.

However, I read recently that one IG in one universe is useless in other universes. And True Form Darkseid is not going to step into the Marvel Universe and remain sitting in Apokolips in the DC Universe.

But since Thanos can play god in his Marvel Universe, he can simply create anything he wants - including radion missiles - and shoot towards Apokolips. While Darkseid could try to (1) erase or seal the Marvel Universe along with Thanos, or (2) send avatars to drag Thanos out of his Marvel universe and enslave Thanos with Anti-Life Equation. The battle could go inconclusive - which is what Screwattack - Ben Singer in particular - hates to see.

If Heart of the Universe is allowed by Screwattack, Thanos wins hands down and Screwattack would have a clear cut answer with a verdict that "lol not even TOAA can stop Thanos but 8-C Batman can kill Darkseid".

 

[Hellbeast1]

I think that's more a resistance to hax thing but alas

 

[TitanCrusher101]

Should Thanos be able to handle the Omega Beams? I'm guessing his armor and chair can, but I don't know if headshotting Thanos can cause him to disintegrate

Superman, Doomsday and Lobo can survive or even tank it so Thanos should have no problem surviving one or two.
However, I read recently that one IG in one universe is useless in other universes. And True Form Darkseid is not going to step into the Marvel Universe and remain sitting in Apokolips in the DC Universe.

But since Thanos can play god in his Marvel Universe, he can simply create anything he wants - including radion missiles - and shoot towards Apokolips. While Darkseid could try to (1) erase or seal the Marvel Universe along with Thanos, or (2) send avatars to drag Thanos out of his Marvel universe and enslave Thanos with Anti-Life Equation. The battle could go inconclusive - which is what Screwattack - Ben Singer in particular - hates to see.

If Heart of the Universe is allowed by Screwattack, Thanos wins hands down and Screwattack would have a clear cut answer with a verdict that "lol not even TOAA can stop Thanos but 8-C Batman can kill Darkseid".

Multiple problems here. (No offense intended)

Superman survived due to plot armor, and because he's kind of the last hope versus Darkseid.

Doomsday survived because it's not that different from shit he's faced before, and his sweet reactive evolution helps him a shit ton.

Lobo is a very underrated character. He's actually a super badass and OP Bounty Hunter who I love. He's The Punisher mixed with Deathstroke on steroids.

I could honestly see IG doing almost nothing in this battle due to Dark being smart enough to just stay in Apokolips. Plus he kind of loves battling in that place. (And home field advantage. cause why not)

Lastly, Batman can't kill Darkseid even if he gets a shit ton of prep time. I realise you were ******** on ScrewAttack here, but Batman gets severely overrated with prep time, which sucks because he's a great character.

 

[Sorvoe551]

@Jason A few questions:

1. Would the IG allow Thanos to know about Radion?

2. Can Avatars of Darkseid seal and/or erase universes normally or does that need his true form?

3. Has anyone resisted the Anti-Life Equation in DC? If so, would Thanos be able to if he's on equal terms with the survivors?

4. Didn't Batman "kill" Darksied with that super magic plot device bullet?