Dies Irae Revisions

[ZERO7772]

The distance thing comes from KKK iirc, I would happily help you in DI but I know little about KKK like most people but here my input on Trifa\Wolfgang thing :

Trifa hitting wolfgang doen't mean much sine the the spear have the "never miss" status which is the same as Elenoer who was able to hit Wolfgang when his true Briah was active but that doesn't mean she ignore distance it just mean her attacks will always hit the target

Ren not being able to approach Wolfgang can be easily Wolfgang so much faster than him just by standing there < BS but DI is full of it, saying Wolfgang can warp space around him and creat infinity distant is bullshit and headcanon because he never stated to be able to such thing, his Briah is just always being faster than his enemy

 

[ZERO7772]

I thought you meant that the spear can miss no ? if you are talking about the distant then I agree based on DI alone and like I said before I don't know about KKK

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I'm specifically talking about the spear supposedly ignoring distance, because nothing in DI supports that, and it seems very silly to scale the KKK spear considering it's working under a different Law, being used by a different person, etc

 

[ZERO7772]

I don't necessary disagree with you if other disagree as well then sure ~

 

[Schnee_One]

Agreed with Monarch.

 

[Extreme123dz]

Nah, we need the original scans in Japanese whit people that lay the 2 versions and bring it wit quotes/scans from both, Original and localization and analize this :v

 

[EvilMegaCookie]

The reason why the spear hit Schreiber is because it was allowed to. Otherwise it would just bend right out of the way.

Why was it allowed to and when was this stated?

https://i.imgur.com/jh4mtcE.png

Pretty sure there is a bit more to it but that was all I could find. Maybe it is mentioned in Marie's route, but I am pretty sure this is the only instance we have.

Or at the very least that is how I figure why Valeria could approach Schreiber while Ren couldn't. Doesn't make much sense for the whole "always faster and you cannot ever approach me" to suddenly stop working from behind. Besides, the lance was mentioned to be able to pierce all regardless of what laws they imposed on the realm. It might not be much, but in the censored version, Valeria's hand shone gold. So maybe it is some weird utilisation of the lance in melee form? Lol.

I suspect that is why he was capable of piercing Schreiber. Otherwise, I have no clue why they would show a CG of the Longinus. It was there for a reason.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

My theory is not that it "stops working from behind". My theory is that because Valerian did not register as an enemy to Schreiber, Schreiber's ability to always be faster than his opponent did not affect Valerian

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

Alright, not sure if my words mean anything here, but I agree with everything sans the spear thing. Needs more input from the experts.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

2-Hadou God Weaknesses : This is little wrong, it's not point of Reinhard can't use his full power unless against Merc, it's because IT IS snake he can use this much of power, okay this may not make much sense let me explain

I'm not sure you are right here. While it's true that Reinhard keeps increasing in power to match Mercurius, he is still then unable to use that full power against Ren.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

I may be wrong, but I remember it being explicitly stated in the narration that while Reinhard and Mercurius were fighting, they were continually evolving, and Ren was quite literally being left in the dust, since he wasn't evolving alongside them.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Yeah, that happens. So reasonably, if Ren is being left in the dust, the only explanation as to why Reinhard doesn't kill him in one shot, is that quote stating Reinhard can't use the full power of his Godhood against Ren.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

I agree with ya. The only point I disagree with you is about Reinhard being hurt by anyone of his legion. Not impossible, but I find it highly unlikely at worst and extremely weird at best.

EDIT: But Merc was also trying to kill Ren. How didn't Mercurius kill Ren as well?

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Naration said Ren was falling behind in evolution which seconds later he was bambozleed by the two. He was behind but not THAT far behind but still got bambozleed

Also Ren speed really quickly and wolfie was standing still however he never reached albedo at all during the chant he tried but no matter what never reached him so...then LLT CG showed up and valeria went behind for the kill...pretty sure valeria used LLT to get to Wolfie otherwise CG is useless @EMC it turned gold huh? IIRC it was stated user merge with lance but it's vague in the head

 

[ZERO7772]

You guys are getting few thing wrong here :

While it's true Ren was getting his ass kicked and Beast was mocking him, he wasn't FAR behind them, if you suggest Beast can't one shot him because he can't use his full power then what explation do you have for Ren surviving Snake attacks ? they all have the samve value which is "90" but the reason Ren was losing is because unlike the other two he lack "legion", however the table was turned when Shiou and machina came to his aid and using their abilities he was able to ignore the soul count

Snake doesn't evolve he's the strongest god from the get go it's the other two who evolve to match him

Again the only reason Beast can fight Snake in the first place is because he's his Apoptosis he doesn't stand chance against him in normal condition he even admit it himself in the epilogue, even if he somehow power up his Taikyoku from 80 to 90 without the Apoptosis status he will still get the Ren treatment because Snake have the whole multiverse at his side and Beast have like few millions ?

Heck if Sakuna were to fight Yato he would match him evenly

I find it unbelievable how Beast was the only one destroying himself even though the other two have similar power

 

[Scavell]

Some people try to make Dies Irae more powerful and diverse than it actually is.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

It is pretty powerful and diverse.

I'm just shearing the hedges so to speak

 

[ZERO7772]

The profiles are overhyped though that's a fact

 

[ALRF]

>Base Weaknesses Reinhard

No i don't agree with this,Eleonore and Wolfgang cannot harm Reinhard and Machina has only a veeery very small chance of beating him and yet a bayonett harms him? Yeah...

>Hadou God Weaknesses

Dunno about the first one.

For the second one, it clearly says after that how it is because of his Apoptosis nature since he damaged Mercurius too thus damaging himself since their existence is tied to each other.

>Briah Weaknesses

I agree with it.

>Trifa Additio

Trifa and Reinhard my buddy, those barriers belongs to Reinhard but Trifa has them too.

>LDO Immortality

Yeah, i agree with this

>Reinhard Soul Resurrection

I'm pretty sure Legion comes back because of Gladsheimr properties of being in a constant state of Creation and Destruction.

In their Methuselah fight, they were being destroyed cause of the former Time Accel, which causes them to reach their...self-destructive impulse, yeah the Legion were still coming back just because of how Gladsheimr works, don't remember any instance of Mercurius interefering at that point.

>Type 8

Dies Irae belongs to Shinza Bansho series, which has Paradise Lost and KKK too. KKK was released in 2011, while DI: Also Sprach (which had Reinhard dying too in Marie route) was in 2007 and Acta Est (which added Rea and Kei route) was in 2009 (or 2010 don't remember).

Now you see, DI never went in depth about cosmology or certain things, until KKK came in and started explaining every shit about the world, Throne, Naraka, Era of each Heavens, their Law names, their backstory, ect. This is also the place where the rule of Apoptosis cannot die until the one they are tied are dead came by...and which should also be applied to DI, because no matter how much you says it contradicts the death of Reinhard in Marie Route (DI Also Sprach guys which was in 2007 and was, to put it bluntly a shit game with no explanation or whatever), it was retconned in KKK. Hell after KKK came in, Masada and Light released Amantes Amantes just to expand more on the stuff that went missing (not all of them of course).

What am i saying is, KKK created the rule of Type 8 Immortality, and that's why it should stay.

>LLT Distance

1) Yeah...no...just no. Hajun Law had nothing to do with LLT, Rindou had nothing to do with LLT, it was just that, a special property of the LLT, ignoring distance to strike its foes. Though you also didn't explain how just by LLT being in Hajun world gave it the ability to bypass the distance.

2) Don't understand what you are trying to say here.

3) IIRC he used the LLT to severe the connection between Wolfie and Gladsheimr thus killing the commander.

>All this leads me to believe the spear image there was the visual equivalent of hyperbole, and Valerian wasn't even using the spear when he killed Schreiber.

Except there is a CG? Just like EMC said, it was there for a reason.

4) Pretty sure Distance and Dimension not withstanding means bypassing those.

Also isn't like...every time the spear is used in its true power, the narration also mentions it?

Now for the scans:

>Ren straight up catches the Longinus as it flies past.If it simply warped over and hit him, this would be impossible.

No mention of the LLT special properties or whatever. PIS or Reinhard being in character.

>Beatrice's lightning, at least in this case, proves to be faster than the spear. Again, impossible if it simply skipped over distance.

You also do know it is impossible if Beatrice is faster than something meant to be always faster than you right?, so no LLT special property too

>In between the spear being thrown and it hitting, Ren manages to run up and push Sakurai out of the way.

PIS. Especially considering the fact it said all of the special properties yet missing the target.

>The spear scratches Kei as it goes past. Key words "goes past" - this would be impossible if it simply skipped distance.

Actually, now that i remember, doesn't Reinhard have this blast attack using the LLT? anyhow also no mention of the spear properies and also another PIS since it would haven't missed.

>Ren dodges the Holy Lance - again, something impossible if it really skips distance.

Oh hey, another PIS considering Eleonore lol not missing

Also since this is a revision... can we add Reinhard causing ruptures in space with his presence alone ? or Gladsheimr breaking through space to take Kei as shown during her fight against Bey.

 

[ALRF]

Now don't expect me to reply again.

I'm veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery busy and i won't reply sooo yeaaah.

 

[ZERO7772]

I won't lie that Ren dodging the spear always get on my nerve, I mean he ALWAYS doge the damn thing and even if it's hit he will survive due to some shit

Holy shit this plot armor

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Huh, ALRF actually changed my mind a bit.

 

[ZERO7772]

It's all the same shit with the distant thing comes from KKK and Ren doging the thing because of PIS

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Yeah i remember he had a blast attack too which narration said was playful and destroyed 1/5th of city for ***** and giggles

Also Ren plot armor so good lol but in KKK bite him in da ass XP

 

[SchroKatze]

In addition to Reinhard's new Space destroying thing: Machina can shatter space with a roar (Also... This is said to be capable of destroying heaven and earth) and Schreiber shattered Bey's dimension with a roar.

 

[SchroKatze]

Eleonore can distort space to summon attacks from her Relic too.

 

[ZERO7772]

STOP SchroKatze !!!

 

[SchroKatze]

Stop what?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

>Hadou God Weaknesses

Dunno about the first one.

For the second one, it clearly says after that how it is because of his Apoptosis nature since he damaged Mercurius too thus damaging himself since their existence is tied to each other.

Again, it very clearly says "not only". Meaning that there is more than one reason for Reinhard destroying himself as he fights. And the reasons are given. He's too powerful AND he's Mercurius's apoptosis. Not just the latter.

>LLT Distance

1) Yeah...no...just no. Hajun Law had nothing to do with LLT, Rindou had nothing to do with LLT, it was just that, a special property of the LLT, ignoring distance to strike its foes. Though you also didn't explain how just by LLT being in Hajun world gave it the ability to bypass the distance.

A special property that is never mentioned or implied in DI. You'd think that something instantly hitting the enemy would be a tad more important than it always being faster than them, and yet ignoring distance is never mentioned.

2) Don't understand what you are trying to say here.

People have argued that because the spear hit Wolfie when he was in Briah, it must have ignored distance seeing as otherwise Wolfie would have outrun it by virtue of always being faster. I'm pointing out that he's standing still and not outrunning anything.

3) IIRC he used the LLT to severe the connection between Wolfie and Gladsheimr thus killing the commander.

Scans please

>All this leads me to believe the spear image there was the visual equivalent of hyperbole, and Valerian wasn't even using the spear when he killed Schreiber.

Except there is a CG? Just like EMC said, it was there for a reason.

To make the VN look good. Or just PIS. You seem so fond of that reasoning below, so I'll throw it in here.

4) Pretty sure Distance and Dimension not withstanding means bypassing those.

That's an reaching interpretation. You're looking at something in KKK. using that as the basis of your assumption, and trying to find the barest scraps of evidence that imply it was the same in DI, instead of trying to find evidence of it happening in DI on its own merit.

Also isn't like...every time the spear is used in its true power, the narration also mentions it?

Mentions that it ignores distance? Nope, never happens. I checked.

>The spear scratches Kei as it goes past. Key words "goes past" - this would be impossible if it simply skipped distance.

Actually, now that i remember, doesn't Reinhard have this blast attack using the LLT? anyhow also no mention of the spear properies and also another PIS since it would haven't missed.

It does, but that scan clearly states the spear is going past, not an energy beam.

>Ren dodges the Holy Lance - again, something impossible if it really skips distance.

Oh hey, another PIS considering Eleonore lol not missing

For god's sake. You're just going to keep spamming the words "PIS", "Reinhard not at full power" or "no mention of special properties". I can't prove a negative, yet by god I've done my best. You've done nothing to prove that it can ignore distance, you've just used excuses to justify why it never ever showed that property in DI.

Also since this is a revision... can we add Reinhard causing ruptures in space with his presence alone ? or Gladsheimr breaking through space to take Kei as shown during her fight against Bey.

Gladshiemr "breaking through space" in that instance just means that it pushed its arm into the normal world. It doesn't mean it can cut through space and ignore durability. Reinhard I'll need scans, seeing as I just remember people having impressions, not concrete statements.

 

[SchroKatze]

Here is Machina's and Schreiber's spatial shattering:


Spatial manipulation for Machina

 

[SchroKatze]

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Sounds like hyperbole and similie, and/or character impressions rather than clear fact. All it did was shake the air and ground. Space did not shatter and burst.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Ok, Schreiber can cause ruptures in the ground by roaring. Give him sound manipulation.

 

[ZERO7772]

Hmm I agree with Monrach here

 

[SchroKatze]

And what about Schreiber? (Second scan)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think it is pretty legit. Both scans are describing space being ruptured.

 

[ALRF]

2) IIRC that was Wolfie chanting his True Briah after getting touched.

Ren tried to stop him but couldn't since distance was extending every time Ren tried to get close to him.

This is why people says LLT ignore distance, not because of Wolfie staying still but because of his chant property which extends distance forever.

This is in Kei route btw.

Also those are truly PIS, Else how the heck are people dodging a weapon that is supposedly faster and never misses then?

In fact the scans you show us means that LLT true power wasn't really used.

I cannot give you scans right now since i have to go to bed so tomorrow ;P

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also I have to agree with Alfredo~

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@Matt, the first scan is a simile/metaphor describing the effects of the ground and air moving, likening it to the feeling that space had been split open. Not that space actually had been. The second scan doesn't even mention space. Just heaven (the air and illusion of the flowers) and earth (the ground)

 

[SchroKatze]

I sent the wrong scan for Wolfie, sorry.