Dies Irae Revisions

[Monarch_Laciel]

@ALRF PIS

Also, @Trex, strange that a much weaker person would be able to use a distance ignoring ability, when your argument is situated on "Reinhard wasn't at full power so he couldn't use it"

 

[ALRF]

Yeah sure, PIS when that ain't enough to explain the appearance of Longinus. I'm not buying it, better explain in detail.

 

[Trexalfa29]

@ALRF PIS
Also, @Trex, strange that a much weaker person would be able to use a distance ignoring ability, when your argument is situated on "Reinhard wasn't at full power so he couldn't use it"

Valeria killed Schreiber using Longinus, that's not PIS. In fact, we see the distance ignoring ability being used by Valeria when he hit the moon in Bey's Briah IIRC. During Kei's Route, too.

What he couldn't use is the "never miss" capability, not the distance ignoring. Kemono-dono is one big case of CIS, he decides not to use abilities that would put him at a massive advantage over his opponents in a fight, as he likes to pick his fights so he can fight at fullest while enjoying himself. Same reason why he dislikes using Rosenkavalier Schwarzwald, despite that being his best tool to plunder Hadou God territory, as noted by Masada.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

WIlhelm's moon isn't a real moon, so there's no need to ignore distance to hit it. It's just an image on the end of his Briah AoE.

Look, this boils down to:

Reasons For: Rindou can do it with the LTT in KKK.

Reasons Against: Reinhard never shows the ability or even implies he has it in DI

@ALRF, I'll turn that on it's head. PIS aint enough to explain why Reinhard never uses or mentions the ability to ignore distance in DI

 

[Trexalfa29]

WIlhelm's moon isn't a real moon, so there's no need to ignore distance to hit it. It's just an image on the end of his Briah AoE.
Look, this boils down to:

Reasons For: Rindou can do it with the LTT in KKK.

Reasons Against: Reinhard never shows the ability or even implies he has it in DI

Not even going to address the moon thing because it's irrelevant because, IIRC, he did it.

Your second point reeks of not understanding basic powerscaling.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Basic powerscaling this is not.

Rindou is a different person, using a different ability.

Reinhard never shows that he can use this ability, or even implies it.

 

[Trexalfa29]

Basic powerscaling this is not.
Rindou is a different person, using a different ability.

Reinhard never shows that he can use this ability, or even implies it.

Rindou is a different person, using exactly the same weapon. Using an ability (Tenma Fukumetsu) linked to that same weapon.

This is like you suggesting we cannot scale Kemono-dono's throws to Valeria's Goldene Schwan Lohengrin cause it's a "different ability". Which is, in all honesty, laughable.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Explain Tenma Fekemetsu please. In detail, her page doesn't explain it enough.

 

[Trexalfa29]

Explain Tenma Fekemetsu please. In detail, her page doesn't explain it enough.

Shooting Longinus as an arrow from Rindou's bow, while warping space and skipping distance. Rindou can also speak the Tenma's names in Old World language to enforce Loser status on them and thus affect their connection to Yatou (nerf them).

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Is this her distortion?

 

[Trexalfa29]

Is this her distortion?

Rindou has no Distortion. Tenma Fukumetsu is, as I said, her ability to nerf the Tenma and use Longinus to attack stuff.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

She just has the ability? What is the source of her power? (Rusalka had Die Ewigkeit, Sojirou has his Distortion, Yakou has Mantra, etc)

 

[Trexalfa29]

She just has the ability? What is the source of her power? (Rusalka had Die Ewigkeit, Sojirou has his Distortion, Yakou has Mantra, etc)

No, she gained it after she received Longinus, the Golden Beast's remains, within Valhalla's ruins. It is literally power she gains after getting Kemono-dono's weapon, and you are arguing the man himself cannot use it.

 

[ALRF]

>Yakou

>Powersource

>Mantra

What?

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Yakou uses taikyoku...which is zero fyi...anyway trex and ALRFY is right not only reinhard is FULL of CIS rindou inherited the spear from the same person that didn't change in 8000+ years no reason reinhard can't use it but he won't thanks to i want a proper fight and calling valeria stabbing wolfie but having a LLT cg is PIS is doubtful considering valeria isn't that fast...and physically ain't the greatest too. The CG was there for a reason

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

>Yakou
>Powersource

>Mantra

What?

I dunno, he seemed different to the others cuz he was created from someone else's distortion, and the page made it sound like that.

 

[ALRF]

That's not how it works, but i won't go more since this isn't about him.

Anyhow we really need to finish this shit.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Alright.

I'm arguing that seeing as Reinhard never shows the ability to ignore distance or implies it is possible, Rindou found some new way to use it that Reinhard was never able / never discovered how to.

Reinhard doesn't have Tenma Fukumetsu after all. Does Rindou have the "never missing, always one-shotting" abilities?

 

[ALRF]

No, she doesn't have them.

Reinhard not having Tenma Fukumetsu means nothing, when this power was gained literally after Rindou taking LLT AKA what remained of Kemono-dono from the old world

 

[Trexalfa29]

Alright.

I'm arguing that seeing as Reinhard never shows the ability to ignore distance or implies it is possible, Rindou found some new way to use it that Reinhard was never able / never discovered how to.

Reinhard doesn't have Tenma Fukumetsu after all. Does Rindou have the "never missing, always one-shotting" abilities?

Please, tell me how Reinhard not shouting "Tenma Fukumetsu!" makes a difference at all. It is literally just a Longinus throw from a bow. He never implies it? Explain again how Valeria hit Schreiber, without handwaving it away if you may?

My memory is fuzzy on how many times Rindou used Longinus but, in the cases I remember, it resulted in the deaths of Momiji and Ren's afterimage.

 

[ALRF]

@Trex PIS apparently

which isn't justified considering we are shown a CG of Longinus.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

the only problem i see is reinhard's CIS getting in the way of that but not PIS cause...valeria's briah lets him use LLT too lol

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Rindou doesnt have the one shotting, never missing properties of the Longinus. If it is the exact same spear, with the exact same properties, why didn't they carry over?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

If Reinhard can choose whether or not to use certain properties of the spear, it stands to reason that a property he does not know about he cannot choose to use. Reinhard never uses or shows knowledge of the spear ignoring distance. Rindou likely found a new property to use.

 

[Trexalfa29]

So a weapon made specially for him... and he doesn't know all of its uses. If anyone doesn't know about them would be Rindou. Also, those properties are never mentioned in KKK, yet we are shown the spear basically one shotting Momiji (shielded Tokoyo), then Ren's copy also bit the dust at the tip of Rindou's spear.

You'll need more proof than that when Valeria's "Beast Wannabe" Briah let's him do just that with 6/8 Swastikas open.

Second, Kemono-dono can manifest his Legion's power through Longinus, so if these properties indeed didn't carry over this could be the explanation. Still can skip distance

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Merc made it for him. Reinhard did not stand next to him during the "forging" process questioning Merc on every little detail of what the spear could do. It is entirely possible he doesn't know every single thing it can do.

And Valeria can't have used the spear to kill Wolfgang, it should have bent away. I brought this up, and you all say it was "allowed" to hit him, without actually posting proof of this, because I certainly didn't see anything like that in the game.

 

[Trexalfa29]

Merc made it for him. Reinhard did not stand next to him during the "forging" process questioning Merc on every little detail of what the spear could do. It is entirely possible he doesn't know every single thing it can do.
And Valeria can't have used the spear to kill Wolfgang, it should have bent away. I brought this up, and you all say it was "allowed" to hit him, without actually posting proof of this, because I certainly didn't see anything like that in the game.

The spear was literally born out of Snake's self destruction impulses, it is literally Apoptosis: The Weapon. And it was tailor made for Kemono-dono. Your claim that he didn't know all of its capabilities holds absolutely no water. In fact, claiming that a character from this VN doesn't know the full extent of his capabilities is a statement without proof behind it, whatsoever.

We saw a CG of Longinus going towards Schreiber when there are pretty cool CGs of Valeria's hands while he fistfights. And please, explain to me how the hell did Valeria one shot Schreiber, who had gone ABSOLUTELY unharmed through the fight, bar a meaningless slap from Shirou? We are speaking about a dude who hits softer than Bey does, and Bey definately cannot one hit kill Schreiber. Valeria's whole schtick is that his defense is absolute but his physical attacks are shit, while in Briah he switchs to "absolute attack, shitty defense" mode. Hell, he couldn't finish off Kasumi Route's Ren without Briah, nor could he finish off Kei without it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Trex and ALRF continue to make sense.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Actually, Wolfgang's defense is also pretty shit. Part of being fast enough to never be hit is because he needs to never be hit. And you say there's a CG of the spear, I say the actual image shows Valeria clearly impaling Wolfgang with his hand. So really, there's a case to be made for either possibility in that example.

But I can see that we will continue to say Reinhard can use an ability that he has never shown knowledge of, nor ever used, and that there have been numerous showings of it not happening, and doesn't even happen when Reinhard's at full Hadou God so the argument that "he wasn't at full power" is nulled, so I give up on the spear.

 

[Trexalfa29]

Schreiber's defense being shit is a ridiculous claim. The only reason attacks hurt him more than usual is in Briah, given that getting hit is a contradiction to his desire, which kind of causes him great damage. It has to do with the nature of his Craving, not with his physical stats. Which I reckon his soul count makes him having less defense than Bey absolutely ridiculous, plus he has showings of meteor ramming Berlin and nuking it in the process. You kind of need some durability to do that. His defense is not shitty enough to get one shotted by Valeria's fist, and seeing as he wasn't in Briah mode (he was just finishing his chant), what you said is invalid.

Again, even if Valeria didn't show it here, we have this:


þÑ×ÕÆÆþÑ×Õ¿üþÑ׵ѢÒÇÉõ╣àµêæþ½£ÞâåÒÇæÕñ®Ú¡öÞªåµ╗à

But please, do prove that somehow what amounts to a simple spear throw with the same spear is different in Dies and KKK.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I said, I give up on the spear. But she's firing it like an arrow from a bow, not throwing it, so clearly there is something different in how it is being used.

And I can't understand Japanese unfortunately, so posting that video clip did nothing. Though she didn't even say Tenma Fukumetsu until the very end?

 

[ALRF]

That's a shitty argument.

It's still LLT so it doesn't matter

 

[Reppuzan]

@Monarch

I'm inclined to agree with ALRF and Trex on this one.

 

[ALRF]

Considering the matter of the spear is finished, i would like to move on and talk about Reinhard resurrection.

Like i said in my first post, i'm against Mercurius being the whole guy that accelerates resurrection.

Reinhard is, just like any other route, nerfed to beyond degree (seriously Rea route where he throws his spear and Rea is all fine and dandy), and asked him? He wasn't even asking him, he was pretty much in an argument against Mercurius since he was gonna unleash his full power (which is literally useless considering the eight swatiska isn't opened) until he was stopped by him, since Reinhard is, alongside Gladsheimr, in a pretty bad shape because of Ren's new craving which counters them.

 

[VoidGoji]

Also. Reinhard is nerfed in every possible way by the Swastikas to the point that he needed to consume a part of Gladsheimr just to summon LLT on a certain route. Even when he doesn't need to do anything but just summon LLT while at full power.

 

[VoidGoji]

So, yeah, the argument "but he wasn't at full power" is valid.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

It's valid for the things it's shown to be valid for, i.e. the spear being able to miss.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

so which ones are missing now?

 

[ZERO7772]

The whole thing with Beast not being able to use the spear unless he is at full power while Trifa can use just fine is BS by itself, however, this what the story seems to imply so we have to accept it

Reinhard being massively nerfed is fact tho this is the only reason any of the cast can throw hands with him