Devil May Cry - Universe Level Mundus

[ZillaJrKaijuKing]

I'm not sure whether or not this was already brought up, but the Devil May Cry 3 manga's intro says that the human and demon worlds are two halves of the universe. Light split the universe in half and it became the human universe while the darkness became the demon realm. Would Mundus being able to merge the two realms be universal? Is the manga even credible enough, for that matter?

EDIT: Nevermind. It looks like something similar was brought up.

If memory serves me right, the whole pocket dimension Mundus created wentcompletely blank after he lost, and after a good 3-4 seconds we see Dante back into the demon world again. I remember hearing that when something goes completely blank in fiction, it's to usually signify that the reality/general area was completely destroyed etc. And Mundus appeared to of tanked it as well as we later find out (Mundus making his way to the human world). I think surviving the destruction of his pocket dimension (of Universal size) would lead to Universe durability.

That may not necessarily be a durability feat. They could have merely been transported out of the dimension. We don't see any explosions. It could have merely disappeared.

 

[SouthAmericanMan]

I can agree with that.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

That may not necessarily be a durability feat. They could have merely been transported out of the dimension. We don't see any explosions. It could have merely disappeared.

And how would they be transported out of the dimension? If we go with the outcome that will leave us with the least amount of assumptions (the more likely outcome) then I believe destruction/ the dissapearence of the realm seem like better possbilities. I am not sure at all how Dante would have the means to somehow escape the pocket dimension.

I will lean more with destruction however, Antvasima has said this regarding similar scenes

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

well yeah Dante and Mundus both tanked that collapse and Mundus still is quite stubborn hell he took all of Dante's hits after being severely wounded while he didn't have the Sparda and called it weak so yeah that also shows how outclassed Dante was in DMC 1 though DMC 2 helped closed the gap between the two until Dante surpassed Sparda by then so this kind of justifies their durability and ability difference back then

 

[Brunout]

Also, isn't Argosax a Mundus-level demon?

I mean, Sparda needed help from matier and the whole clan of half-demons(yeah, that old hag and her clan are half-demons) to seal argosax away with 4 relics(force edge wasn't enough?)

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

To be honest, I cannot find a good reason as to why Mundus would be unable to withstand equivelant energy to what he creates (creating universes), and we cannot really use examples from Marvel who are glass cannons because they are this way due to the guidebook rankings etc. I think that scaling AP to durability or vice versa is acceptable unless proven otherwise by guidebook rankings, statements or something else.

Also yes Brunout Dante by the DMC4 was already implied to be at the same level if not stronger than his father Sparda, so it would make sense that by the time of DMC2 Dante is capable enough to defeat Argosax (which his father required help with) completely on his own with relative ease.

 

[SouthAmericanMan]

To be honest, I cannot find a good reason as to why Mundus would be unable to withstand equivelant energy to what he creates (creating universes), and we cannot really use examples from Marvel who are glass cannons because they are this way due to the guidebook rankings etc. I think that scaling AP to durability or vice versa is acceptable unless proven otherwise by guidebook rankings, statements or something else.
Also yes Brunout Dante by the DMC4 was already implied to be at the same level if not stronger than his father Sparda, so it would make sense that by the time of DMC2 Dante is capable enough to defeat Argosax (which his father required help with) completely on his own with relative ease.

There's a Guidepost in DMC2 saying that "The hunter (Dante) shall surpass all who came before him (Sparda)"

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. I am leaning back and forth on this issue.

It does seem awfully inconsistent to create a universe, and then only use small meteorites, lightning, and lasers.

On the other hand, as you say, if the screen goes blank, that commonly signifies a reality destruction, which would be more consistent.

I would prefer more staff member input, but if we end up counting it as a hax, I suppose that we would have to scale Mundus' general attack potency from Dante's other highest feats.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

The only thing against it, is the caliber of the attacks Mundus sends towards Dante. However the AOE of them do not really matter seeing as even the weakest of his projectiles (whilst in his statue/weakest form) was able to greatly injure/nearly kill Dante and the other meteorites (In "angel" form) was able to damage a Majin Dante who also survived the destruction of the pocket dimension. The actual AP of these meteors are far greater than we suspect them to be.

 

[LordAizenSama]

There's perhaps something untold here. something like, he required prep time to create it or he no longer has the power he once had. I dunno. Just making stuff up.

I'm also undecided . However i'm not convinced, and don't think I ever will be without really good solid proof, that a screen going blank in a game signifies the end of the universe/reality when logically the screen has to transition to another scene somehow.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

There's perhaps untold here. something like, he required prep time to create it or he no longer has the power he once had.
I'm undecided also. However i'm not convinced, and don't think I ever will be without really good solid proof, that a screen going blank in a game signifies the end of the universe/reality when logically the screen has to change to another scene somehow.

First point requires proof which there is none of, Hideki made it clear that Mundus created a universe in that scene so I would rule those two possibilities out. The second point however I can understand, but it's more to do with blank screens in fiction generally symbolizing the destruction of a universe/reality.

 

[Antvasima]

A "Possibly 3-A" perhaps?

 

[HeroicDefender97]

I fully support the upgrade for Dante, Mundus, and Sparda in all honesty. Austrian-Man has very solid arguments that there is a slim chance that these characters can possibly be Universe Level.

And considering the power that Dante and Mundus displayed in their battle. It wouldn't be too far-fetched.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

I don't think "Possibly" would be an appropriate ranking for a character who has visibly shown a feat which has been confirmed to be Universal via WoG. If that is not concrete confirmation then I have no idea what is.

The inconsistencies which are the lightning,meteors and such are all explained via AP. Our AP/Tier system is based around the destruction or creation of matter and seeing that Mundus was able to create a Universal sized pocket dimension I fail to see how this is not affiliated with AP. Who is to say that the AP of these seemingly underwhelming projectiles are not Universal?

Just as a reminder, "The attack potency depends upon the energy output of the attack, not the area of effect of the attack."

 

[RavenSupreme]

did we saw the planets / stars / light whatever moving in the created realm?

because without time there is no movement - when there is, its a low 2c feat instead of 3a

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

There is movement within the realm, both Dante/Mundus flew through clouds which seemed to of been moving perfectly fine.

 

[Antvasima]

@AMM Okay. 3-A it seems to be then.

@RavenSupreme The issue is not whether or not there existed time within the universe. The issue is whether the timespace continuum was already there, and Mundus simply filled it with a universe worth of content.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Well, seeing as 3-A seems to be accepted around the board should the changes be made?

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose so, although I would prefer if more staff members cleared the change first.

 

[RavenSupreme]

i am now actually wondering why we stikc to 3a when mundus actually created the entire continuum? including the content and the "dimension" such as space, time etc. ?

or was it just that he took a random space and there he created it?

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

i am now actually wondering why we stikc to 3a when mundus actually created the entire continuum? including the content and the "dimension" such as space, time etc. ?
or was it just that he took a random space and there he created it?

Here is the feat in questio

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

wouldn't that just give them Infinite speed?

 

[HeroicDefender97]

I don't think "Possibly" would be an appropriate ranking for a character who has visibly shown a feat which has been confirmed to be Universal via WoG. If that is not concrete confirmation then I have no idea what is.

The inconsistencies which are the lightning,meteors and such are all explained via AP. Our AP/Tier system is based around the destruction or creation of matter and seeing that Mundus was able to create a Universal sized pocket dimension I fail to see how this is not affiliated with AP. Who is to say that the AP of these seemingly underwhelming projectiles are not Universal?

Just as a reminder, "The attack potency depends upon the energy output of the attack, not the area of effect of the attack."

The only reason I said "Possibly" was because there is a chance that the admins on this site can debunk it and not consider it to be a legit thing. Like remember how the MFTL upgrade proposal for Dante was shut down?--- yeah I mean something like that. But in all seriousness I still agree with the evidence that you provided on Dante, Sparda, and Mundus being Universe Level.

 

[RavenSupreme]

dante having infinite speed or the author confirmed universal feat including time so things can move?

the former is ridicoulus whereas the latter just fits in the description and statement...

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

I suppose so, although I would prefer if more staff members cleared the change first.

I believe Cross, Prom, Somebody,Raven and Everlasting all agreed with the original proposed 3-A ranking (might be forgetting some other users) so they should be fine with the changes (well not really changes seeing as it remains as 3-A)

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

The only reason I said "Possibly" was because there is a chance that the admins on this site can debunk it and not consider it to be a legit thing. Like remember how the MFTL upgrade proposal for Dante was shut down?--- yeah I mean something like that. But all seriousness I still agree with the evidence that you provided on Dante, Sparda, and Mundus being Universe Level.

The only reason MFTL Dante was debunked was because of how vague it is. Calculating that feat would be akin to trying to calculate someone running from the desert to a gas station, without being given any distance/clarity on where those are.

Universal Mundus however is a clear feat of creation which is backed up by WoG, there is a 0% chance of this being debunked. And if someone tries bringing up the "inconsistencies" then they are also going against a concept of our site (Attack Potency).

I appreciate the support btw.

 

[Ryukama]

This doesn't seem to be WoG just saying some random thing of what the character in question can do outside the story rather him further elaborating on an actual feat within the series. And Area of Effect shouldn't really have a factor in it as we tend to ignore it for most series.

I agree with AMM's proposal.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Seeing that there many people accept 3-A some of which are admins,calc group members and even a bureaucrat I see no real reason to wait much longer to adjust the profiles.

If possible, I would like to personally adjust the profiles so I can fix scaling. E.g 1,Anime,4 and 2 Dante having the same tier despite DMC2 Dante being far superior to those three and most likely scaling to Sparda (via surpassing him in lore etc)

 

[Alakabamm]

Well, as I said, I see no problem with 3-A

 

[Xolon]

Is Kamiya even working with the DMC series anymore? If not than statements from him being considered WOG is a lot more shaky.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Yeah can this be added to the pages now? Everyone appears to be in agreement for 3-A

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Is Kamiya even working with the DMC series anymore? If not than statements from him being considered WOG is a lot more shaky.

How does Kamiya not working with Capcom change anything? He was the one who directed Devil May Cry 1 and gave clarification as to whether or not Mundus created a Universe within a cutscene. It is as concrete as you can possibly get.

Somehow not working with Capcom can effect whether or not his statements regarding a game he wrote/created is legitimate. What a complete joke.

 

[Lina_Shields]

So, with regards to Majin Dante, Mundus, and Sparda's tiering revision, the changes are as follows:

Attack Potency: Universe level

Speed: At least FTL+, likely higher (was travelling through various stars against his battle with Mundus)

Would this be correct? I am still unsure in regards to the speed setting of Majin Dante and Mundus.

 

[Brunout]

What about argosax?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I believe so, and i see where i was wrong about the reality warping, I see no problems with it now

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

So, with regards to Majin Dante, Mundus, and Sparda's tiering revision, the changes are as follows:
Attack Potency: Universe level

Speed: At least FTL+, likely higher (was travelling through various stars against his battle with Mundus)

Would this be correct? I am still unsure in regards to the speed setting of Majin Dante and Mundus.

I am unsure about speed too, it's best to save this topic for another time. When we can actually come up with a good guesstimate for how much distane Dante/Mundus needs to of covered in there space flight.

Everything else looks fine, perhaps mention Universe creating and WoG as justifications for Mundus tier.

Dante should have 3 keys, DMC3,DMC1 4 and finally DMC2 Dante. DMC2 Dante should recieve the Universe ranking due to him surpassing his father in power and beating Argosax without difficulty. You may make a 4th key for Sparda-Dante or his other DT forms but I feel that would be too long and arduous to do.

 

[Alakabamm]

I don't agree with the speed really.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I'm with AMM and Alaka on the speed as well. That one can be discussed about another time and in another thread.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Here is a render of Majin Dante just in case it's needed

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Well, since this is concluded and pretty much everyone agrees with it, can we get some more input on this?