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Devil May Cry Revisions
- Thread starter Matthew_Schroeder
- Start date
- Status
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for me Dante is univers level
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I have posted why I disagree with the downgrade
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I just agree with the Latin name and the Underworld Collapsing stuff - the game makes explicit it's Mallet Island collapsing. Those shouldn't be used as evidence for Universe level Mundus.
Besides that, disagree with the rest, especially about Kamiya's credibillity.
Why is he realiable?
I bet the people who bombard him with the questions about Mundus level never read his Twitter rules. It's his fixed tweet.
"Rules:
•No tagging me in ur conv.
•No repeated questions
•No requests or asking about games which are not my games/not our IP
•No shit posts"
It's crystal clear -- and an obvious reason, after answering seriously the same question a few times -- to troll the questioners. After all, that's what a tired person do on the internet. By the way, speaking about trolling, you reached your verdict here.
"Isn't what's happening rather obvious?
Hideki Kamiya is sick and tired of fanboys pestering him about how powerful his characters are, and so he just threw that non-answer there to appease them.
It is highly unlikely that a guy who expresses a hatred of Vs Matches and Vs Debating and always responds by trolling would give a sincere response one time.
Therefore, it can be concluded that Hideki Kamiya's Twitter is not a reliable source and should be disregarded."
First of all > He didn't give a sincere response one, but three times.
Secondly > He has always been attentive with questions about his "verses", denying lies, but always the same way; with short answers.
Never saw?
Here is what he says about the relationship between Dante and Trish.
"No. She is more than that. RT @Ketchups92: @PG_kamiya Did you intend Trish to be Dante's love interest in DMC1?"
Meaning: No, she isn't.
And here is what he says about the silhouette on Devil May Cry shop.
"It's just a cool girl's silhouette. RT @Chaosmaster8753 In DMC1, y does the logo on Dante's shop have Trish on it when he hasn't met her"
Meaning: it isn't Trish
"But these two questions aren't VS Related, that's why he didn't troll"
The universe one, the first especially, wasn't too. The questioner had a doubt, Kamiya answered him -- without even knowing it was going to become a VS thing snowball --, and then answered more three times the same question (as mentioned before) without trolling.
So, using a period in which Kamiya was certainly tired of the excessive questions, to judge him as not trustworthy is, nothing less than, wrong. Future events where the person was visibly impatient being used as a reason to deny the things he has answered in the past, as if the mental state were the same, is not right.
> Still has a continuation, now about the God Tiers and outlierish things.
Besides that, disagree with the rest, especially about Kamiya's credibillity.
Why is he realiable?
I bet the people who bombard him with the questions about Mundus level never read his Twitter rules. It's his fixed tweet.
"Rules:
•No tagging me in ur conv.
•No repeated questions
•No requests or asking about games which are not my games/not our IP
•No shit posts"
It's crystal clear -- and an obvious reason, after answering seriously the same question a few times -- to troll the questioners. After all, that's what a tired person do on the internet. By the way, speaking about trolling, you reached your verdict here.
"Isn't what's happening rather obvious?
Hideki Kamiya is sick and tired of fanboys pestering him about how powerful his characters are, and so he just threw that non-answer there to appease them.
It is highly unlikely that a guy who expresses a hatred of Vs Matches and Vs Debating and always responds by trolling would give a sincere response one time.
Therefore, it can be concluded that Hideki Kamiya's Twitter is not a reliable source and should be disregarded."
First of all > He didn't give a sincere response one, but three times.
Secondly > He has always been attentive with questions about his "verses", denying lies, but always the same way; with short answers.
Never saw?
Here is what he says about the relationship between Dante and Trish.
"No. She is more than that. RT @Ketchups92: @PG_kamiya Did you intend Trish to be Dante's love interest in DMC1?"
Meaning: No, she isn't.
And here is what he says about the silhouette on Devil May Cry shop.
"It's just a cool girl's silhouette. RT @Chaosmaster8753 In DMC1, y does the logo on Dante's shop have Trish on it when he hasn't met her"
Meaning: it isn't Trish
"But these two questions aren't VS Related, that's why he didn't troll"
The universe one, the first especially, wasn't too. The questioner had a doubt, Kamiya answered him -- without even knowing it was going to become a VS thing snowball --, and then answered more three times the same question (as mentioned before) without trolling.
So, using a period in which Kamiya was certainly tired of the excessive questions, to judge him as not trustworthy is, nothing less than, wrong. Future events where the person was visibly impatient being used as a reason to deny the things he has answered in the past, as if the mental state were the same, is not right.
> Still has a continuation, now about the God Tiers and outlierish things.
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We are still doing this....
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So let's start with this:
That's it, a one-word response. He didn't even directly answer the question of if the feat is accurate or not, he just said "Universe". This answer borders on |Non Sequitur from how inconsequential it is.
You starts off telling that it was nonsense to use the quote from Kamiya himself because it was short. Yeah, it was basically that, and it would be a point, but... the debate would continue on if it was just that justification, so you continued with that:
Kamiya could have answered "Building", "Planet", "Multiverse", or "Omniverse" and the answer would make as much connective sense, but answering universe implies that he is saying it is a Universe, so people accepted it. --- Wich clearly contradicts what is said in the last text that you brought from the Editing Rules: Building is a joke (I don't even need to explain why Building would not make as much connective sense nor would contradict the editing rules statemnet, do i?); Planet is little less of a joke (We see Stars all around the battlefield. No, it's not planet, nor saying that would make as much connective sense and it would cleary contradict what we see in the game); Do Kamiya even know what Multiverse is? (Heck, if you come out with a yes i can really laugh); Omniverse (...)
And then after you picked up some of the thousands of the trolling fans questions and Kamiya's answer to make your point about him not being reliable about his own work shine more. But hey, let me just correct this part of your text:
So as you can see, Hideki Kamiya likes to troll people and give cryptic, uncertain, vague or ridiculous answers to these types of questions. He has even answered questions pertaining to Mundus being capable of creating a Universe (Which came before the question which he answered with "Universe.") with troll answers.
So, as you can see, Hideki Kamiya is a human who gets frustrated when fans ask him about things he already pleaded and raged them not to question or already answered, not taking very lightly when people ask him who would win in a fight against two characters that he created instead of asking something NEW AND PRODUCTIVE ABOUT THEM AS CHARACTERS, or even about their universe in particular* - It would be easy to fend off things about Kamiya's statements here, but you made the favor to contradict yourself once more and had given us an answer to the problems:
Eventually, he responded to a "Can Mundus create stars and constellations?" question with "Universe.", and since them he has usually redirected new people asking about Mundus being Universe level to that first question. - He eventually had the ideia to redirect people who made the same question to him to the same question another people has sent him, wich had the same response, so that he do not need to answer all over again one thousand times more. He clarified and redirected so Troll Fans do not bother him anymore, not trolled so his fans can consider him a troll.
I would point bias, since your statement goes with a nonsensical random answer so people could leave him alone when the feat is already there (and frankly we all know what it is) and he simply clarifies what we already know, but meh, let me continue (as this would take more than needed)
(Oh, and there is the point that he hates Battles between his characters, but he do not hate to clarify what happens in his games. He clarified what happend in his games more than just a few times, while i can chopp my head off if you found him saying which characters wins against wich in some Troll Question. But nah, you can't find it, because this is what you want to happen, not what Kamiya wants)
So, let's continue
So Mundus spreads his wings and arms, and suddenly both him and Dante are floating in an Outer Space-like environment. This is literally all information we get on it. There's no dialogue nor clarification, nor does the Official Strategy Guide provide insight into what happened.
We can infer to possible conclusions:
The former is indeed the most valid one. You can't just simply come and say a Franchise that has a set number of Dimensions, and that take the dimension topic seriously as **** (to the point any enemy that has any power following that line, Nightmare for example, has a larger role to play in the games), has some random unnamed and unnimportant dimension just standing by waiting for it to be the final background of some fight. The main plot of ALL games is about the fights between Human World (One Dimension) and the Demon World (Another Dimension) - The Mirror World (Another Dimension) is simply the friggin passage to Hell - Nightmare's Dimension (Another Dimension) is a space created by Mundus (who created Nightmare) guarded by creatures that travels freely between both main dimensions (Human and Demon) (The Sargasso) that makes the victim revive his darkest fears and traumas
But hey, of course DMC would have a random dimension that is identical to the Human One in all showed ocasions there, without ANY PURPOSE AT ALL, right?
Furthermore, even if it was confirmed in game that this is a dimension created by Mundus, there is absolutely nothing that indicates it warrants a Universe level rating.
Yes, yes, yes. Forget the fact that Mundus had showed before 'Universe Level rating' by separating and then going to reunite The Human World and the Demon World and goes for the it proves nothing. Forget the Name = Power statement from Arkham too (that we know what you think about that statement ''''vagueness''... but when it comes from his daughter's statements, oh gosh, it is sacred stuff when she says about Abigail right?)
And that's if it is accepted that this is a Creation Feat and not a Dimensional Transportation feat, and I personally feel that the later is far more likely. - It is more likely, when we never saw in any DMC game a Character FORCING Dimensional Transportantion into another? Transporting yourself is other thing, but you are almost saying Mundus has Meta-Teleportantion man (are you sure you are trying to downgrade?)
'So, let's go to the putrid Overral Scaling...'
These are literally all the feat which are Tier 7 and above in the Devil May Cry series, not counting Mundus. As you can see, Devil May Cry is consistently Large Town level, with a few Island leveland Continent level feats from God Tiers.
No. You picked feats from Mid Tiers of the verse and said Hey, the verse has this powers. The Top and the God tiers should have no powers above this for the reason that i want it to be that way, even if backstory puts the god tiers lightyears above that. Seriously:
Scaling all the strongest characters of the series from Mundus' feat, be it 4-A or 3-A is absurd. It is a humongous outlier that grossly contradicts the scale of the series as a whole.
In reality, the strongest characters have their own considerations (like the fact that Argosax before it was even completely summoned was distorting the Human World, as Arius said, but i would have to pick that up later). The only humongous outlier that grossly contradicts the scale of the series as a whole was one made by yourself saying that Prime Abigail is as strong as Mundus, wich put him at 3-A on this wiki (wich a HIGHLY Disagree), going by a statement of Lady that is basically There was this guy that summoned Demons, and he could not control Abigail, wich i heard was as strong as the Demon King, so yeah, he is strong people (and, of course, your '''interpretation'' of the narrative)
Meanwhile, Devil May Cry characters being scaled from Mundus' vague and uncertain feat is an immensely worse, because not only is it far greater than anything else in the series, but the character who performs it isn't some God Tier being who is supposed to be far stronger than everyone else in the Verse, so it shouldn't scale even to Mundus
Can you believe that i actually agree in part with you right there? Who would have tough whu? I am saying about the part of the scale of course, because God Tiers in EVERY Fiction Work are supposedly Godly above another characters. They are MADE to be lightyears above the other ones in power, in the context of the work (of course). Mundus (a God Tier) desintegrated Griffon (a Mid Tier) while sealed in another dimension using a projection that Kamiya knows how much power had (If it was enough to pass to the Human World, than it would be insignificant compared to Mundus normal powers). Dante before Prime and without Sparda's powers is in fact a Top Tier. He could One-Shot 'Sidgail' (another Top Tier) with ease using Devil Trigger, while with all HIS power alone he couldn't even scratch Mundus
But then again, i myself will never consider Lucia, Arius (even Argosax possessed) and Abigail as God Tiers
'Other Supposed Universal Feats' *sigh*
I remember like it was yesterday, the post where you were trying to downgrade Mundus by using Lady's statement (The one that actually boosted Abigail to Universe Level, ugh). I talked about Pluto's, and you said something like Ugh, but the official translation has nothing to do with it. And it is no random scanlation, it is the official one, the one that counts and bla bla bla. So, when it is of your interest, you pick the scanlation one ('''''''''that is more accurate to the japanese version''''''''') and when is of your interest, you pick the official one. Interest to know more about the kind of person you are Matt. But let's not be stucked on personal affairs, shall we?
Mundus' name is outright stated to be allegorical, not literal, and it doesn't have to do with the physical universe itself. Similarly, Agni and Rudra are not literally the Hindu Gods of Fire and Wind, but simple demons with Fire and Wind powers. The names indicate something about their name, but aren't meant to be taken literally.
is outright stated to be allegorical - This doesn't matter at all... really '-'. It is HIS name. It is HIS power. It literally don't contradict in any point
Agni and Rudra are not literally the Hindu Gods of Fire and Wind - If you studied more Matt, you would see that Agni means Fire in Hindi, while Rudra means Wind
So yeah, they are to be taken literally, your opinion on the matter can't change that. Specially when it has clear bias. When Arkham says a Demon's Powers depend on the Name, you say NO. When Arkham says The Human World was already there, and after some war the Underworld was bor you say YES. *cough* BIAS BIAS BIAS *cough*
It is far more likely and believable that Mundus' name is Mundus because he is the Emperor of the Demon World (Vile World).. No. From all we know he was born Mundus, and for what the Guidebook tells us (in the page you yourself showed us) it is stated that, and i quote: ...a dark prince of the Underworld mustered a great army of evil and slew the former God of Evil. He is named Mundus because he's powers extend to the meaning of that, not what you want to
According to Kamiya himself, they chose the name Mundus because he is the Emperor of the Underworld and the name has evocative imagery - No. He said Mundus meaned Universe in Latin (So, an official interview that Kamiya states, albeit indirectly this time, that Mundus have Universe level of power. Cool). The rest is He is the ruler of the Underwolrd / We DESIGNED him God-Like instead of Devil-Like for the player to feel his Dignity and We choose because it gave him a good look. So, nothing contradicts the fact that he has more than one Universal Level Feat and that he's name, wich is akin to his power, Means Universe
So Mundus' name meaning "Universe" isn't meant to be taken literally. He isn'ta a Universe. - Yeah, he is not. And Agni isn't fire, Rudra isn't Wind, Phantom isn't a Ghost but Cerberus is still an Ice Cerberus. That was a bad joke you did there Akin to Its power no Akin to what he is
First of all, what was collapsing wasn't the Demon World but the Mallet Island, and we know for a fact that the Demon World didn't collapse with Mundus' death because it is A-Okay in Devil May Cry 2, 4 and the Anime.
Also, even Kamiya denies this happening.
So no, this never happened.
I agree totally with this one. It make no sense whatsoever, the max we can take out of it is a part of Underworld sustained by Mundus was collapsing or something like that. Mallet Island destruction alone couldn't destroy something in Other dimension
Mundus fused the Demon World and the Human World. Wich are two halves of the universe - Should i explain that half of a Universe is still infinite? I think not
Twenty years ago, Mundus the emperor of the underworld resurrected. (...) His powers were sealed by Sparda, he's attempting to take control of the human world again. He has been preparing to open the gate on Mallet Island."
So if Mundus was a Universal Reality Warper who could merge Universes, why would he need to open a portal?
By the same reason that he do not simply appear in front of Dante the first moment he sets his feet on Mallet Island. HE WAS SEALED. Stuck in another Dimension, only could send insignificant beings (close to him) that powers were so weak that the Seal, made for Stronger beings, couldn't contain. The smaller ones phased trough the wholes on the fence, while the bigger one couldn't. It is so simple that is laughable how you simply ignore to get what you want. The only contact Mundus do to the outside world in sending a projection to desintegrate a subordinate to the brim, said projection being to weak to be stopped by the seal
So the Human World and the Demon World were connected through a portal, Temen-Ni-Gru, and it was through this portal that Demonkind invaded Earth. Mundus never fused two universes. He opened a portal.
Two words: Human Creation. Temen-Ni-Gru was created by HUMANS, who divined DEMONS and wanted DEMON POWER, but, as the Underworld was sealed, they needed to build up a GATEWAY, so they could PASS TROUGH and gain their so desired DEMON POWER. Want me to expalin the rest of DMC 3 Plot or did you gathered what was needed? I expect the former, please. It is not cool to keep stating such obvious trivialities
Also according to Arkham, Sparda required Prep Time and outside help to seal Temen-Ni-Gru:
"Two amulets... a set of Sparda's blood. Now I need one more key. He sacrificed two things to suppress the tremendous force of this tower: His own Devil's blood, and a mortal priestess."
So not only is it not a Dimension Merging feat, but it is also something which Sparda, Mundus' equal, requires Prep-Time to do.
No, Sparda needed. Sparda need after sealing basically ALL HIS POWER inside de Underworld in case he didn't became evil and wished innocent blood. Man, i have to beg to stop the obvious trivialities? It's in the game!! You only need to play it
'Conclusion'
You use only the things that favour your opinion. The scanlation thing made me go speechless when i read, to go from i have reason because my sources are official when you needed to i have reason because my sources are not official, but closely to japanese when it was suited for you. Don't need to talk anymore about the subversion of both Hideki Kamiya and his words, nor the contradictions on your on texts
That's it, a one-word response. He didn't even directly answer the question of if the feat is accurate or not, he just said "Universe". This answer borders on |Non Sequitur from how inconsequential it is.
You starts off telling that it was nonsense to use the quote from Kamiya himself because it was short. Yeah, it was basically that, and it would be a point, but... the debate would continue on if it was just that justification, so you continued with that:
Kamiya could have answered "Building", "Planet", "Multiverse", or "Omniverse" and the answer would make as much connective sense, but answering universe implies that he is saying it is a Universe, so people accepted it. --- Wich clearly contradicts what is said in the last text that you brought from the Editing Rules: Building is a joke (I don't even need to explain why Building would not make as much connective sense nor would contradict the editing rules statemnet, do i?); Planet is little less of a joke (We see Stars all around the battlefield. No, it's not planet, nor saying that would make as much connective sense and it would cleary contradict what we see in the game); Do Kamiya even know what Multiverse is? (Heck, if you come out with a yes i can really laugh); Omniverse (...)
And then after you picked up some of the thousands of the trolling fans questions and Kamiya's answer to make your point about him not being reliable about his own work shine more. But hey, let me just correct this part of your text:
So as you can see, Hideki Kamiya likes to troll people and give cryptic, uncertain, vague or ridiculous answers to these types of questions. He has even answered questions pertaining to Mundus being capable of creating a Universe (Which came before the question which he answered with "Universe.") with troll answers.
So, as you can see, Hideki Kamiya is a human who gets frustrated when fans ask him about things he already pleaded and raged them not to question or already answered, not taking very lightly when people ask him who would win in a fight against two characters that he created instead of asking something NEW AND PRODUCTIVE ABOUT THEM AS CHARACTERS, or even about their universe in particular* - It would be easy to fend off things about Kamiya's statements here, but you made the favor to contradict yourself once more and had given us an answer to the problems:
Eventually, he responded to a "Can Mundus create stars and constellations?" question with "Universe.", and since them he has usually redirected new people asking about Mundus being Universe level to that first question. - He eventually had the ideia to redirect people who made the same question to him to the same question another people has sent him, wich had the same response, so that he do not need to answer all over again one thousand times more. He clarified and redirected so Troll Fans do not bother him anymore, not trolled so his fans can consider him a troll.
I would point bias, since your statement goes with a nonsensical random answer so people could leave him alone when the feat is already there (and frankly we all know what it is) and he simply clarifies what we already know, but meh, let me continue (as this would take more than needed)
(Oh, and there is the point that he hates Battles between his characters, but he do not hate to clarify what happens in his games. He clarified what happend in his games more than just a few times, while i can chopp my head off if you found him saying which characters wins against wich in some Troll Question. But nah, you can't find it, because this is what you want to happen, not what Kamiya wants)
So, let's continue
So Mundus spreads his wings and arms, and suddenly both him and Dante are floating in an Outer Space-like environment. This is literally all information we get on it. There's no dialogue nor clarification, nor does the Official Strategy Guide provide insight into what happened.
We can infer to possible conclusions:
- Mundus created this dimension himself
- Mundus transported him and Dante to another dimension
The former is indeed the most valid one. You can't just simply come and say a Franchise that has a set number of Dimensions, and that take the dimension topic seriously as **** (to the point any enemy that has any power following that line, Nightmare for example, has a larger role to play in the games), has some random unnamed and unnimportant dimension just standing by waiting for it to be the final background of some fight. The main plot of ALL games is about the fights between Human World (One Dimension) and the Demon World (Another Dimension) - The Mirror World (Another Dimension) is simply the friggin passage to Hell - Nightmare's Dimension (Another Dimension) is a space created by Mundus (who created Nightmare) guarded by creatures that travels freely between both main dimensions (Human and Demon) (The Sargasso) that makes the victim revive his darkest fears and traumas
But hey, of course DMC would have a random dimension that is identical to the Human One in all showed ocasions there, without ANY PURPOSE AT ALL, right?
Furthermore, even if it was confirmed in game that this is a dimension created by Mundus, there is absolutely nothing that indicates it warrants a Universe level rating.
Yes, yes, yes. Forget the fact that Mundus had showed before 'Universe Level rating' by separating and then going to reunite The Human World and the Demon World and goes for the it proves nothing. Forget the Name = Power statement from Arkham too (that we know what you think about that statement ''''vagueness''... but when it comes from his daughter's statements, oh gosh, it is sacred stuff when she says about Abigail right?)
And that's if it is accepted that this is a Creation Feat and not a Dimensional Transportation feat, and I personally feel that the later is far more likely. - It is more likely, when we never saw in any DMC game a Character FORCING Dimensional Transportantion into another? Transporting yourself is other thing, but you are almost saying Mundus has Meta-Teleportantion man (are you sure you are trying to downgrade?)
'So, let's go to the putrid Overral Scaling...'
These are literally all the feat which are Tier 7 and above in the Devil May Cry series, not counting Mundus. As you can see, Devil May Cry is consistently Large Town level, with a few Island leveland Continent level feats from God Tiers.
No. You picked feats from Mid Tiers of the verse and said Hey, the verse has this powers. The Top and the God tiers should have no powers above this for the reason that i want it to be that way, even if backstory puts the god tiers lightyears above that. Seriously:
- Mundus creating a storm over Mallet Island -> Mundus, sealed in another Dimension and not using any avatar creating a storm == Corrected Answer
- Mundus creating Mallet Island and it collapsing -> Mundus, sealed in another Dimension, never was stated to create Mallet Island, but his Defeat IN ANOTHER DIMENSION threatened to destroy it as backfire of his loss == Corrected
- Nefasturris making the sky red and summoning storm clouds -> Nefasturris can pass by a Mid Tier if he try hard enough
- Arius creating a larger vortex of clouds in the sky when summoning Argosax (Needed Prep Time to do it) -> Human Arius, using a friggin summoning ritual to bring to the human world a God Tier of DMC, creating a large vortex of clouds == Corrected
- Echidna creating a thunderstorm and causing clouds to spin rapidly -> Agreed. You called Echidna fodder in another post (as long as Berial) so she's basically a Mid Tier. Normal
- Echidna creating a rainforest over time - ''''''''''''''over time'''''''''''''''' (so over time that Nero, that is constantly in missions over there, because it's the way to the HQ, didn't have noticed before. Because you want it to be that way) == Corrected
- Abigail's continental cloud feat -> Sidgail. It was Sid, a minor weaker demon that could not control Abigail's powers, that made a Multi-Continental level feat. Abigail that is by the way a Top Tier, not a God one (Unless that you choose to consider Lady's statement. Wich would be clearly bias, since any other statement you would not consider since it's upgrade, not downgrade) == Corrected
- Arkham moving clouds in a vortex when opening the gate to the demon world (Also required prep time) - Half-Demon Arkham. Wich i sincerely can't even put at Mid Tier, but the wiki consider, so whatevs == Corrected
- Phantom causing the clouds above Mallet Island to spin rapidly - Phantom is a Mid Tier, so yeah, normal
- The Saviour starting a storm - I don't even remember that one (not that it really matters)
Scaling all the strongest characters of the series from Mundus' feat, be it 4-A or 3-A is absurd. It is a humongous outlier that grossly contradicts the scale of the series as a whole.
In reality, the strongest characters have their own considerations (like the fact that Argosax before it was even completely summoned was distorting the Human World, as Arius said, but i would have to pick that up later). The only humongous outlier that grossly contradicts the scale of the series as a whole was one made by yourself saying that Prime Abigail is as strong as Mundus, wich put him at 3-A on this wiki (wich a HIGHLY Disagree), going by a statement of Lady that is basically There was this guy that summoned Demons, and he could not control Abigail, wich i heard was as strong as the Demon King, so yeah, he is strong people (and, of course, your '''interpretation'' of the narrative)
Meanwhile, Devil May Cry characters being scaled from Mundus' vague and uncertain feat is an immensely worse, because not only is it far greater than anything else in the series, but the character who performs it isn't some God Tier being who is supposed to be far stronger than everyone else in the Verse, so it shouldn't scale even to Mundus
Can you believe that i actually agree in part with you right there? Who would have tough whu? I am saying about the part of the scale of course, because God Tiers in EVERY Fiction Work are supposedly Godly above another characters. They are MADE to be lightyears above the other ones in power, in the context of the work (of course). Mundus (a God Tier) desintegrated Griffon (a Mid Tier) while sealed in another dimension using a projection that Kamiya knows how much power had (If it was enough to pass to the Human World, than it would be insignificant compared to Mundus normal powers). Dante before Prime and without Sparda's powers is in fact a Top Tier. He could One-Shot 'Sidgail' (another Top Tier) with ease using Devil Trigger, while with all HIS power alone he couldn't even scratch Mundus
But then again, i myself will never consider Lucia, Arius (even Argosax possessed) and Abigail as God Tiers
'Other Supposed Universal Feats' *sigh*
I remember like it was yesterday, the post where you were trying to downgrade Mundus by using Lady's statement (The one that actually boosted Abigail to Universe Level, ugh). I talked about Pluto's, and you said something like Ugh, but the official translation has nothing to do with it. And it is no random scanlation, it is the official one, the one that counts and bla bla bla. So, when it is of your interest, you pick the scanlation one ('''''''''that is more accurate to the japanese version''''''''') and when is of your interest, you pick the official one. Interest to know more about the kind of person you are Matt. But let's not be stucked on personal affairs, shall we?
Mundus' name is outright stated to be allegorical, not literal, and it doesn't have to do with the physical universe itself. Similarly, Agni and Rudra are not literally the Hindu Gods of Fire and Wind, but simple demons with Fire and Wind powers. The names indicate something about their name, but aren't meant to be taken literally.
is outright stated to be allegorical - This doesn't matter at all... really '-'. It is HIS name. It is HIS power. It literally don't contradict in any point
Agni and Rudra are not literally the Hindu Gods of Fire and Wind - If you studied more Matt, you would see that Agni means Fire in Hindi, while Rudra means Wind
So yeah, they are to be taken literally, your opinion on the matter can't change that. Specially when it has clear bias. When Arkham says a Demon's Powers depend on the Name, you say NO. When Arkham says The Human World was already there, and after some war the Underworld was bor you say YES. *cough* BIAS BIAS BIAS *cough*
It is far more likely and believable that Mundus' name is Mundus because he is the Emperor of the Demon World (Vile World).. No. From all we know he was born Mundus, and for what the Guidebook tells us (in the page you yourself showed us) it is stated that, and i quote: ...a dark prince of the Underworld mustered a great army of evil and slew the former God of Evil. He is named Mundus because he's powers extend to the meaning of that, not what you want to
According to Kamiya himself, they chose the name Mundus because he is the Emperor of the Underworld and the name has evocative imagery - No. He said Mundus meaned Universe in Latin (So, an official interview that Kamiya states, albeit indirectly this time, that Mundus have Universe level of power. Cool). The rest is He is the ruler of the Underwolrd / We DESIGNED him God-Like instead of Devil-Like for the player to feel his Dignity and We choose because it gave him a good look. So, nothing contradicts the fact that he has more than one Universal Level Feat and that he's name, wich is akin to his power, Means Universe
So Mundus' name meaning "Universe" isn't meant to be taken literally. He isn'ta a Universe. - Yeah, he is not. And Agni isn't fire, Rudra isn't Wind, Phantom isn't a Ghost but Cerberus is still an Ice Cerberus. That was a bad joke you did there Akin to Its power no Akin to what he is
First of all, what was collapsing wasn't the Demon World but the Mallet Island, and we know for a fact that the Demon World didn't collapse with Mundus' death because it is A-Okay in Devil May Cry 2, 4 and the Anime.
Also, even Kamiya denies this happening.
So no, this never happened.
I agree totally with this one. It make no sense whatsoever, the max we can take out of it is a part of Underworld sustained by Mundus was collapsing or something like that. Mallet Island destruction alone couldn't destroy something in Other dimension
Mundus fused the Demon World and the Human World. Wich are two halves of the universe - Should i explain that half of a Universe is still infinite? I think not
Twenty years ago, Mundus the emperor of the underworld resurrected. (...) His powers were sealed by Sparda, he's attempting to take control of the human world again. He has been preparing to open the gate on Mallet Island."
So if Mundus was a Universal Reality Warper who could merge Universes, why would he need to open a portal?
By the same reason that he do not simply appear in front of Dante the first moment he sets his feet on Mallet Island. HE WAS SEALED. Stuck in another Dimension, only could send insignificant beings (close to him) that powers were so weak that the Seal, made for Stronger beings, couldn't contain. The smaller ones phased trough the wholes on the fence, while the bigger one couldn't. It is so simple that is laughable how you simply ignore to get what you want. The only contact Mundus do to the outside world in sending a projection to desintegrate a subordinate to the brim, said projection being to weak to be stopped by the seal
So the Human World and the Demon World were connected through a portal, Temen-Ni-Gru, and it was through this portal that Demonkind invaded Earth. Mundus never fused two universes. He opened a portal.
Two words: Human Creation. Temen-Ni-Gru was created by HUMANS, who divined DEMONS and wanted DEMON POWER, but, as the Underworld was sealed, they needed to build up a GATEWAY, so they could PASS TROUGH and gain their so desired DEMON POWER. Want me to expalin the rest of DMC 3 Plot or did you gathered what was needed? I expect the former, please. It is not cool to keep stating such obvious trivialities
Also according to Arkham, Sparda required Prep Time and outside help to seal Temen-Ni-Gru:
"Two amulets... a set of Sparda's blood. Now I need one more key. He sacrificed two things to suppress the tremendous force of this tower: His own Devil's blood, and a mortal priestess."
So not only is it not a Dimension Merging feat, but it is also something which Sparda, Mundus' equal, requires Prep-Time to do.
No, Sparda needed. Sparda need after sealing basically ALL HIS POWER inside de Underworld in case he didn't became evil and wished innocent blood. Man, i have to beg to stop the obvious trivialities? It's in the game!! You only need to play it
'Conclusion'
You use only the things that favour your opinion. The scanlation thing made me go speechless when i read, to go from i have reason because my sources are official when you needed to i have reason because my sources are not official, but closely to japanese when it was suited for you. Don't need to talk anymore about the subversion of both Hideki Kamiya and his words, nor the contradictions on your on texts
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We need as much info as we can, we still have a couple decent points brought up against itAntvasima said:
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I will answer the points against me.
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Guys, wrong place and time.
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And just to add up, i liked what the O Virgílio guy said up there. You can't simply pick examples to why we can't trust Kamiya from things that Kamiya himself has prohibited on his twitter, and that people keep doing
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Cracks Knuckles
Alright, let's get this done.
First Disagreement: Sparda 20000000
"For people with a rotten soul like you even if they obtain power they are no match for someone with a real soul"
Exact context behind this line? When was it stated? Because it sounds like typical "You lost because you are evil" hero talk without context.
>Stuff about Pluto.
There are two in-universe mythology statements about Pluto, let's see them both:
"There's a word left by a notable prophet when he visited this castle. It states, "Pluto shall come on the promised date and separate heaven and earth. One with black wings of treachery shall come and stand in Pluto's way."
"There's something written, "The confronter of the path, Pluto's dragon. Prove your bravery with your sword and the dragon will fall in its own flame.""
That's literally it. We don't even know if Pluto and Mundus are one and the same. Also, "Black Wings of Teachery"... That sounds like Mundus. Mundus wanted Earth and the Demon World to be separated, so it is entirely possible that Pluto is someone else and Mundus stood against him.
And in DMC 1 as well, we have explicit evidence that Mundus can't fuse universes.
Also, this is in-universe mythology, it's worthless.
"Mundus didn't use the temen ni gru it was built by humans so they could travel to the demon world not the other way around"
But as I proven extensively in my post, Mundus did use the Temen Ni Gru as a portal, it doesn't matter who built it.
"Also how do you it was mundus who couldn't planet bust it said a demon black horns mundus doesn't have black horns"
It was Mundus, mate. In Chapter 1 they show Mundus and he has Black Horns, it is referring to Mundus. They also refer to him as a "Demon God", and only Mundus has that title.
"With sparda sealing the temen ni gru his plan was to make it as difficult as possible in case someone tried to reawaken it such as using his blood he would never think someone from his bloodline would try to awaken it"
No, he wanted to seal it and to do so he needed to use the amulet, his own power, and the blood of a priestess. He needed Help and Prep-Time to seal away a portal.
If he and Mundus were Universal, this wouldn't happen.
"Matt said the demon world didn't collapse but mundus's dimension did collapse after Dante beat him"
We have no proof it did. There's a fade-out scene transition and Dante is back in Mundus' throne room. That's it.
"Also it is hinted that mundus was the one who originally split the universe in two"
There isn't, it's more likely someone else (Pluto) did, and Mundus stood against him wanting the worlds to be one again.
Would fit perfectly with the Fall of Heaven story implied in DMC 3 with The Fallen and outright stated in the Official Translation of the manga.
Second Disagreement: O Virgílio
"It's crystal clear -- and an obvious reason, after answering seriously the same question a few times -- to troll the questioners. After all, that's what a tired person do on the internet. By the way, speaking about trolling, you reached your verdict here."
HE HAS BEEN TROLLING PEOPLE WHO ASK HIM VS QUESTIONS SINCE 2009 WHEN HE STARTED HIS TWITTER
He outright states that he hates Vs Questions and he always trolls them. You are just clinging to it because you want it to be true out of personal preference.
"He has always been attentive with questions about his "verses", denying lies, but always the same way; with short answers"
Yes, but those examples you give me are not Vs questions. Ask Kamiya a "Who would win" question and he will troll you.
"The universe one, the first especially, wasn't too. The questioner had a doubt, Kamiya answered him -- without even knowing it was going to become a VS thing snowball --, and then answered more three times the same question (as mentioned before) without trolling."
He answered to throw people a bone, that's it.
Kamiya answered Mundus questions by trolling before answering it with a uninterested one-word response.
Alright, let's get this done.
First Disagreement: Sparda 20000000
"For people with a rotten soul like you even if they obtain power they are no match for someone with a real soul"
Exact context behind this line? When was it stated? Because it sounds like typical "You lost because you are evil" hero talk without context.
>Stuff about Pluto.
There are two in-universe mythology statements about Pluto, let's see them both:
"There's a word left by a notable prophet when he visited this castle. It states, "Pluto shall come on the promised date and separate heaven and earth. One with black wings of treachery shall come and stand in Pluto's way."
"There's something written, "The confronter of the path, Pluto's dragon. Prove your bravery with your sword and the dragon will fall in its own flame.""
That's literally it. We don't even know if Pluto and Mundus are one and the same. Also, "Black Wings of Teachery"... That sounds like Mundus. Mundus wanted Earth and the Demon World to be separated, so it is entirely possible that Pluto is someone else and Mundus stood against him.
And in DMC 1 as well, we have explicit evidence that Mundus can't fuse universes.
Also, this is in-universe mythology, it's worthless.
"Mundus didn't use the temen ni gru it was built by humans so they could travel to the demon world not the other way around"
But as I proven extensively in my post, Mundus did use the Temen Ni Gru as a portal, it doesn't matter who built it.
"Also how do you it was mundus who couldn't planet bust it said a demon black horns mundus doesn't have black horns"
It was Mundus, mate. In Chapter 1 they show Mundus and he has Black Horns, it is referring to Mundus. They also refer to him as a "Demon God", and only Mundus has that title.
"With sparda sealing the temen ni gru his plan was to make it as difficult as possible in case someone tried to reawaken it such as using his blood he would never think someone from his bloodline would try to awaken it"
No, he wanted to seal it and to do so he needed to use the amulet, his own power, and the blood of a priestess. He needed Help and Prep-Time to seal away a portal.
If he and Mundus were Universal, this wouldn't happen.
"Matt said the demon world didn't collapse but mundus's dimension did collapse after Dante beat him"
We have no proof it did. There's a fade-out scene transition and Dante is back in Mundus' throne room. That's it.
"Also it is hinted that mundus was the one who originally split the universe in two"
There isn't, it's more likely someone else (Pluto) did, and Mundus stood against him wanting the worlds to be one again.
Would fit perfectly with the Fall of Heaven story implied in DMC 3 with The Fallen and outright stated in the Official Translation of the manga.
Second Disagreement: O Virgílio
"It's crystal clear -- and an obvious reason, after answering seriously the same question a few times -- to troll the questioners. After all, that's what a tired person do on the internet. By the way, speaking about trolling, you reached your verdict here."
HE HAS BEEN TROLLING PEOPLE WHO ASK HIM VS QUESTIONS SINCE 2009 WHEN HE STARTED HIS TWITTER
He outright states that he hates Vs Questions and he always trolls them. You are just clinging to it because you want it to be true out of personal preference.
"He has always been attentive with questions about his "verses", denying lies, but always the same way; with short answers"
Yes, but those examples you give me are not Vs questions. Ask Kamiya a "Who would win" question and he will troll you.
"The universe one, the first especially, wasn't too. The questioner had a doubt, Kamiya answered him -- without even knowing it was going to become a VS thing snowball --, and then answered more three times the same question (as mentioned before) without trolling."
He answered to throw people a bone, that's it.
Kamiya answered Mundus questions by trolling before answering it with a uninterested one-word response.
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If you look at mundus he has no black horns and mundus wings are white the demon being called a demon god doesn't mean anything argosax was called a demon god as well
After Dante defeated sid, sid was ask why he couldn't beat Dante even though he had gained power because Sid rejected his humanity he was using the power he couldn't use its full potential and the statements that put Abigail on mundus's level are questionable
Lady's statement
"Supposedly he has powers on par with the demon king"
She wasn't sure if that was true or not so
Sid's statement
"I will show you the power of Abigail who once rivaled the demon king"
Sid said Abigail once had the power indicating that Abigail's power is no longer on mundus level"
And keep in mind sid isn't as powerful as the real Abigail
The black wings of treachery fits with sparda sparda has black wings and him standing against mundus is what made him famous We know the universe was split in two if mundus defeated someone with a universe feat wouldn't that make him universe level and with the dimension feat mundus did the feat in his physical body and not in his 3 eyed avatar with the feats you mentioned
Look at the link I sent you humans used the temen ni gru to get to the demon world and gained demonic powers https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:DMC3_Manga_-_Vol._1_-_Pg_90-91.jpg
After Dante defeated sid, sid was ask why he couldn't beat Dante even though he had gained power because Sid rejected his humanity he was using the power he couldn't use its full potential and the statements that put Abigail on mundus's level are questionable
Lady's statement
"Supposedly he has powers on par with the demon king"
She wasn't sure if that was true or not so
Sid's statement
"I will show you the power of Abigail who once rivaled the demon king"
Sid said Abigail once had the power indicating that Abigail's power is no longer on mundus level"
And keep in mind sid isn't as powerful as the real Abigail
The black wings of treachery fits with sparda sparda has black wings and him standing against mundus is what made him famous We know the universe was split in two if mundus defeated someone with a universe feat wouldn't that make him universe level and with the dimension feat mundus did the feat in his physical body and not in his 3 eyed avatar with the feats you mentioned
Look at the link I sent you humans used the temen ni gru to get to the demon world and gained demonic powers https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:DMC3_Manga_-_Vol._1_-_Pg_90-91.jpg
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Counterpoint
I let it clear those weren't VS Questions, and Mundus' one isn't too - it's just a doubt about a moment in the game. As I said in my commnent; he answered because he didn't know this question was going to become a one-month-war against the questioners.
Answers like this would and should be considered throwing a bone, because it gives space for further discussion and personal interpretation. A straight answer, like Universe being considered throw a bone would be kinda headcanon, it gives basically no space for interpretation.
I let it clear those weren't VS Questions, and Mundus' one isn't too - it's just a doubt about a moment in the game. As I said in my commnent; he answered because he didn't know this question was going to become a one-month-war against the questioners.
Answers like this would and should be considered throwing a bone, because it gives space for further discussion and personal interpretation. A straight answer, like Universe being considered throw a bone would be kinda headcanon, it gives basically no space for interpretation.
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As FateAlbane demonstrated in this very thread, One-Word answers are not reliable.
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Need a hand?
> "For people with a rotten soul like you even if they obtain power they are no match for someone with a real soul"
Exact context behind this line? When was it stated? Because it sounds like typical "You lost because you are evil" hero talk without context. <
- Dante told this to Sid. Sid was anguisty crying by the fact that he couldn't beat Dante, even getting the most powerful he could would be useless, and he asked why. That was Dante's response. And this fact continues to be used on DMC 4. Dante tells this to Agnus and Nero tells this to Sanctus. You need a real Soul to be strong, a Soul of a Human, to be exponencially more powerful than a normal Demon
> That's literally it. We don't even know if Pluto and Mundus are one and the same. Also, "Black Wings of Teachery"... That sounds like Mundus. Mundus wanted Earth and the Demon World to be separated, so it is entirely possible that Pluto is someone else and Mundus stood against him. < - Yes, they are the same. The things they wanted to do was the same thing and even Sparda was depicted on the Legend. Yes, Pluto and Mundus are the same, as the guy with Black Wings of Treachery is Sparda
> And in DMC 1 as well, we have explicit evidence that Mundus can't fuse universes < Wich would be....?
> Also, this is in-universe mythology, it's worthless. < In-Universe mythology becomes worthless when it don't favors you
> But as I proven extensively in my post, Mundus did use the Temen Ni Gru as a portal, it doesn't matter who built it. < You just proved you don't payed attention to the game. Never it is stated that Mundus used, not even hinted
> It was Mundus, mate. In Chapter 1 they show Mundus and he has Black Horns, it is referring to Mundus. They also refer to him as a "Demon God", and only Mundus has that title. < No, the demon with Black Horns was Sparda. Sparda HAS Black Horns. Mundus is White. It is his design, that Kamiya cares the most. It wasn't Mundus, nor Mundus appears physically in any chapter of the Manga, nor in any other piece of frenchise apart from DMC 1. It will not be Mundus just because you want it to be
> No, he wanted to seal it and to do so he needed to use the amulet, his own power, and the blood of a priestess. He needed Help and Prep-Time to seal away a portal. < Yeah yeah, he needed to use the Amulet (wich is HIS creation with HIS own power). Ingenious. He needed prep because he abandoned his powers so he shoul not turn into an evil being
> There isn't, it's more likely someone else (Pluto) did, and Mundus stood against him wanting the worlds to be one agai < Mundus is Pluto. It was Mundus
> Would fit perfectly with the Fall of Heaven story implied in DMC 3 with The Fallen and outright stated in the Official Translation of the manga. < No, it don't. Nothing fits with that story. And, like you said before, is in-universe mythology, so its worthless
I will just repeat what i said before: Vs Bullshit he will not answer. He did not like it, and the ones who question it are the real trolls. You are being partial for saying that it's his fault, when it clearly is not. He gave direct and correct answers about thing on HIS works. It's not his fault that ******** fans go ask him stupid questions that he ******* PROHIBITED
> "For people with a rotten soul like you even if they obtain power they are no match for someone with a real soul"
Exact context behind this line? When was it stated? Because it sounds like typical "You lost because you are evil" hero talk without context. <
- Dante told this to Sid. Sid was anguisty crying by the fact that he couldn't beat Dante, even getting the most powerful he could would be useless, and he asked why. That was Dante's response. And this fact continues to be used on DMC 4. Dante tells this to Agnus and Nero tells this to Sanctus. You need a real Soul to be strong, a Soul of a Human, to be exponencially more powerful than a normal Demon
> That's literally it. We don't even know if Pluto and Mundus are one and the same. Also, "Black Wings of Teachery"... That sounds like Mundus. Mundus wanted Earth and the Demon World to be separated, so it is entirely possible that Pluto is someone else and Mundus stood against him. < - Yes, they are the same. The things they wanted to do was the same thing and even Sparda was depicted on the Legend. Yes, Pluto and Mundus are the same, as the guy with Black Wings of Treachery is Sparda
> And in DMC 1 as well, we have explicit evidence that Mundus can't fuse universes < Wich would be....?
> Also, this is in-universe mythology, it's worthless. < In-Universe mythology becomes worthless when it don't favors you
> But as I proven extensively in my post, Mundus did use the Temen Ni Gru as a portal, it doesn't matter who built it. < You just proved you don't payed attention to the game. Never it is stated that Mundus used, not even hinted
> It was Mundus, mate. In Chapter 1 they show Mundus and he has Black Horns, it is referring to Mundus. They also refer to him as a "Demon God", and only Mundus has that title. < No, the demon with Black Horns was Sparda. Sparda HAS Black Horns. Mundus is White. It is his design, that Kamiya cares the most. It wasn't Mundus, nor Mundus appears physically in any chapter of the Manga, nor in any other piece of frenchise apart from DMC 1. It will not be Mundus just because you want it to be
> No, he wanted to seal it and to do so he needed to use the amulet, his own power, and the blood of a priestess. He needed Help and Prep-Time to seal away a portal. < Yeah yeah, he needed to use the Amulet (wich is HIS creation with HIS own power). Ingenious. He needed prep because he abandoned his powers so he shoul not turn into an evil being
> There isn't, it's more likely someone else (Pluto) did, and Mundus stood against him wanting the worlds to be one agai < Mundus is Pluto. It was Mundus
> Would fit perfectly with the Fall of Heaven story implied in DMC 3 with The Fallen and outright stated in the Official Translation of the manga. < No, it don't. Nothing fits with that story. And, like you said before, is in-universe mythology, so its worthless
I will just repeat what i said before: Vs Bullshit he will not answer. He did not like it, and the ones who question it are the real trolls. You are being partial for saying that it's his fault, when it clearly is not. He gave direct and correct answers about thing on HIS works. It's not his fault that ******** fans go ask him stupid questions that he ******* PROHIBITED
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Now let's talk about this one.
Third Disagreement: Kyo Takashi
"You starts off telling that it was nonsense to use the quote from Kamiya himself because it was short"
A one-word answer shows disinterest and is super vague.
"Kamiya could have answered "Building", "Planet", "Multiverse", or "Omniverse" and the answer would make as much connective sense, but answering universe implies that he is saying it is a Universe, so people accepted it. --- Wich clearly contradicts what is said in the last text that you brought from the Editing Rules"
No I didn't, dude. ANY one word response would make as much connective sense as saying "Universe". He didn't even directly answer the question directly. In terms of logical progression, if he said "Banana" or "Cat", it would make as much connective tissue.
But you jump into thinking it's right because you want Universal DMC, pure and simple.
"And then after you picked up some of the thousands of the trolling fans questions and Kamiya's answer to make your point about him not being reliable about his own work shine more"
Yes, because Kamiya trolls people and makes it abundantly clear he hates Vs Question and has been trolling people who ask Who Would Win questions to him since 2009. I'm sorry, but it's the fact.
"So, as you can see, Hideki Kamiya is a human who gets frustrated when fans ask him about things he already pleaded and raged them not to question or already answered, not taking very lightly when people ask him who would win in a fight against two characters that he created instead of asking something NEW AND PRODUCTIVE ABOUT THEM AS CHARACTERS, or even about their universe in particular"
And asking if Mundus can create a universe isn't a new and productive questio, it's a dumb VsDebating question which gets troll answers.
"It would be easy to fend off things about Kamiya's statements here, but you made the favor to contradict yourself once more and had given us an answer to the problems"
You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
"I would point bias, since your statement goes with a nonsensical random answer so people could leave him alone when the feat is already there (and frankly we all know what it is) and he simply clarifies what we already know, but meh, let me continue (as this would take more than needed) "
The feat isn't there, and only a wanker would look at something so vague and jump at the conclusion that Mundus is creating a universe. He didn't clarify anything, he is trolling the fanboys by giving them what they want to hear, knowing that they will embrace it regardless of how illogical it is.
If a Superman writer on twitter says that Superman has the power of the Big Bang, will you believe it? No, it's pure nonsense. Same thing here.
"Oh, and there is the point that he hates Battles between his characters, but he do not hate to clarify what happens in his games. He clarified what happend in his games more than just a few times, while i can chopp my head off if you found him saying which characters wins against wich in some Troll Question. But nah, you can't find it, because this is what you want to happen, not what Kamiya wants"
Yes, he doesn't mind answering normal questions, but asking if Mundus created a universe is a Vs Question. I'm sorry.
"The former is indeed the most valid one."
No it's not. Nothing clarifies it as such.
"You can't just simply come and say a Franchise that has a set number of Dimensions, and that take the Dimension topic seriously as **** (to the point any enemy that has any power following that line, Nightmare for example, has a larger role to play in the games)"
Nightmare uses nightmare illusions, dude.
"The main plot of ALL games is about the fights between Human World (One Dimension) and the Demon World (Another Dimension) - The Mirror World (Another Dimension) is simply the friggin passage to Hell - Nightmare's Dimension (Another Dimension) is a space created by Mundus (who created Nightmare) guarded by creatures that travels freely between both main dimensions (Human and Demon) (The Sargasso) that makes the victim revive his darkest fears and traumas"
Holy Non-Sequitur, man. So the Verse having other dimensions means that Mundus is creating a dimension? What sort of logic is this, what you said makes no connective sense. You are just appealing to instances where there are dimensions to insist that this scene with 0 clarification is a dimension creating feat when there is 0 evidence that it is.
"Yes, yes, yes. Forget the fact that Mundus had showed before 'Universe Level rating' by separating and then going to reunite The Human World and the Demon World and goes for the it proves nothing. Forget the Name = Power statement from Arkham too (that we know what you think about that statement ''vagueness... but when it comes from his daughter's statements, oh gosh, it is sacred stuff when she says about Abigail right?)"
All things I debunked, but you can't deal with that, can you?
"It is more likely, when we never saw in any DMC game a Character FORCING Dimensional Transportantion into another? Transporting yourself is other thing, but you are almost saying Mundus has Meta-Teleportantion man (are you sure you are trying to downgrade?)"
Meta-Teleportation doesn't exist, and we see demons creating portals and using teleportation in Devil May Cry, what's your point?
"'So, let's go to the putrid Overral Scaling...'"
Okay, listen. You are continuously throwing shade and being incredibly arrogant / rude in your post. This adds absolutely nothing to your argument and just makes you look like an angry biased fanboy. I would much rather appreciate you discuss peacefully as that would actually give credence to your arguments.
"No. You picked feats from Mid Tiers of the verse and said Hey, the verse has this powers. The Top and the God tiers should have no powers above this for the reason that i want it to be that way, even if backstory puts the god tiers lightyears above that. Seriously:"
I LITERALLY WATCHED ALL CUTSCENES FROM ALL DMC GAMES AND LISTED EVERY SINGLE FEAT.
THERE IS NOTHING ABOVE TIER 6 IN DMC.
Also, you also wank the notion of a God-Tier equating being "Lightyears ahead"
"Mundus, sealed in another Dimension and not using any avatar creating a storm"
He wasn't sealed anymore, dude. Nor was he weakened, and it is still one of the only two feats Mundus has.
"Mundus, sealed in another Dimension, never was stated to create Mallet Island, but his Defeat IN ANOTHER DIMENSION threatened to destroy it as backfire of his loss"
Mundus wasn't sealed anymore, and it is very likely he created it because Mundus dying led to it being destroyed.
"Human Arius, using a friggin summoning ritual to bring to the human world a God Tier of DMC, creating a large vortex of clouds"
It shows that the main villain of DMC 2 can't create storms by himself. "so over time that Nero, that is constantly in missions over there, because it's the way to the HQ, didn't have noticed before. Because you want it to be that way"
It is over-time, we have 0 STATEMENTS ABOUT THE TIMEFRAME, and it is likely it was over a period of time.
"It was Sid, a minor weaker demon that could not control Abigail's powers, that made a Multi-Continental level feat"
Nobody has proven to me that Current Abigail is weaker. This is a headcanon to try and hide the 3-A outlier.
"The Saviour starting a storm - I don't even remember that one (not that it really matters)"
It does matter, the only feat from a God Tier is Tier 7, how is it irrelevant?
"In reality, the strongest characters have their own considerations (like the fact that Argosax before it was even completely summoned was distorting the Human World, as Arius said, but i would have to pick that up later)."
A distortion which is never clarified and shown and which amounted to demons invading.
But yes, the strongest characters have the strongest feats, which are Mundus collapsing an island and Abigail doing continental clouds.
These are THE best reliable feats in all of DMC.
"The only humongous outlier that grossly contradicts the scale of the series as a whole was one made by yourself saying that Prime Abigail is as strong as Mundus, wich put him at 3-A on this wiki (wich a HIGHLY Disagree), going by a statement of Lady that is basically There was this guy that summoned Demons, and he could not control Abigail, wich i heard was as strong as the Demon King, so yeah, he is strong people (and, of course, your 'interpretatio of the narrative) "
No, she says that Abigail is comparable to Mundus, no reason to say he isn't. You once again deny it to hide the actual outlier which is Mundus being 4-A or 3-A.
"Can you believe that i actually agree in part with you right there? Who would have tough whu? I am saying about the part of the scale of course, because God Tiers in EVERY Fiction Work are supposedly Godly above another characters. They are MADE to be lightyears above the other ones in power"
Wow, you missed my point entirely. So I will reiterate.
None of the God Tiers other than Mundus show anything greater than Tier 7 or 6.
There.
"Dante before Prime and without Sparda's powers is in fact a Top Tier. He could One-Shot 'Sidgail' (another Top Tier) with ease using Devil Trigger, while with all HIS power alone he couldn't even scratch Mundus "I remember like it was yesterday, the post where you were trying to downgrade Mundus by using Lady's statement (The one that actually boosted Abigail to Universe Level, ugh)."
Dante in the Anime is stronger than Dante in DMC 1 since it takes place after. That only shows that Dante got strong enough to beat up Mundus level entities easily.
Abigail isn't Universal, man. Neither is Mundus.
"I talked about Pluto's, and you said something like Ugh, but the official translation has nothing to do with it."
Because there is 0 proof that Pluto = Mundus and actual evidence that he isn't.
"And it is no random scanlation, it is the official one, the one that counts and bla bla bla. So, when it is of your interest, you pick the scanlation one (''''that is more accurate to the japanese version'''') and when is of your interest, you pick the official one."
I changed my mind, but both translations debunk Universal Mundus. It doesn't matter.
"Interest to know more about the kind of person you are Matt. But let's not be stucked on personal affairs, shall we?"
Are you going to descend to Ad-Hominens now? Thank you.
"is outright stated to be allegorical - This doesn't matter at all... really '-'. It is HIS name. It is HIS power. It literally don't contradict in any point"
Do you know what an allegory means? Mundus has that name because of the evocative imagery and meaning, and to represent that he rules the Demon World. It doesn't mean that he is a Universe or Universal, that is literally the most absurd interpretation of his name possible.
"If you studied more Matt, you would see that Agni means Fire in Hindi, while Rudra means Wind"
Oh wow, don't act like you're a genius and I'm ignoring. I am 100% sure I know more about religions and mythology than you. But this is besides the point.
The point, which apparently you missed, is that Agni and Rudra in DMC are not the Hindu Gods, they are just demons with Fire and Wind powers. The names indicate their nature but are not literal.
Also, btw, what does the name Neva have to do with Succubi and Lightning? Absolutely nothing. So the supposed rule that Demon Names = Their nature and power isn't even consistent.
"So yeah, they are to be taken literally, your opinion on the matter can't change that. Specially when it has clear bias. When Arkham says a Demon's Powers depend on the Name, you say NO. When Arkham says The Human World was already there, and after some war the Underworld was born you say YES. *cough* BIAS BIAS BIAS *cough*"
Stop screaming and personally attacking me. The fact of the matter is we know Mundus and other Demon Names are allegorical but you want to use a character's name to say they are Universal when they have 0 Universal feats.
"No. From all we know he was born Mundus, and for what the Guidebook tells us (in the page you yourself showed us) it is stated that, and i quote: ...a dark prince of the Underworld mustered a great army of evil and slew the former God of Evil. He is named Mundus because he's powers extend to the meaning of that, not what you want to "
And this proves what exactly? I meant it is allegorical for the audience cause it evokes imagery and ideas to us.
"No. He said Mundus meaned Universe in Latin (So, an official interview that Kamiya states, albeit indirectly this time, that Mundus have Universe level of power. Cool)."
Wow, Mundus meaning Universe = Mundus being Universal?
I guess I am literally God's gift to the world cause this is what Matthew means.
"The rest is He is the ruler of the Underwolrd / We DESIGNED him God-Like instead of Devil-Like for the player to feel his Dignity and We choose because it gave him a good look. So, nothing contradicts the fact that he has more than one Universal Level Feat and that he's name, wich is akin to his power, Means Universe"
No, dude. It is saying that he Rules a Universe, not that he is Universal. The Queen of England isn't Country level.
"That was a bad joke you did there Akin to Its power no Akin to what he is"
Yes, the Ruler of the Demon World, not an Universal.
"Mundus fused the Demon World and the Human World. Wich are two halves of the universe - Should i explain that half of a Universe is still infinite? I think not"
The universe is finite, you need proof that the universe is infinite in DMC, when we don't have we use the size of the Observable Universe as a minimum.
"By the same reason that he do not simply appear in front of Dante the first moment he sets his feet on Mallet Island. HE WAS SEALED. Stuck in another Dimension"
HE WASN'T, AS EVIDENCED BY THE END OF THE GAME. He needed Preparation to open a Gate to invade the Demon World, and had resurrected and regained his power.
"only could send insignificant beings (close to him) that powers were so weak that the Seal, made for Stronger beings, couldn't contain."
What logic is this.
>Seal contains Mundus
>Seal can't contain foddders
???
"The smaller ones phased trough the wholes on the fence, while the bigger one couldn't."
Pure headcanon.
"It is so simple that is laughable how you simply ignore to get what you want."
The only thing which is laughable is insisting that a supposed Universal Reality Warper needs Prep-Time to open a portal.
"Two words: Human Creation. Temen-Ni-Gru was created by HUMANS, who divined DEMONS and wanted DEMON POWER, but, as the Underworld was sealed, they needed to build up a GATEWAY, so they could PASS TROUGH and gain their so desired DEMON POWER."
And it was through this gate that Demons invaded Earth, as evidenced By Sparda sealing Temen-Ni-Gru to stop demons from invading.
"Want me to expalin the rest of DMC 3 Plot or did you gathered what was needed?"
No need, I watched all the cutscenes and I think the story is fresher in my memory than yours.
"I expect the former, please. It is not cool to keep stating such obvious trivialities"
I'm glad you understand my side of things.
"No, Sparda needed. Sparda need after sealing basically ALL HIS POWER inside de Underworld"
NO, He sealed all of his power DURING THIS RITUAL, you are literally inverting the order of events and outright lying now.
"Man, i have to beg to stop the obvious trivialities? It's in the game!! You only need to play it"
You need to play it, since you are misremembering stuff now.
"You use only the things that favour your opinion."
I used literally everything.
"The scanlation thing made me go speechless when i read, to go from i have reason because my sources are official when you needed to i have reason because my sources are not official, but closely to japanese when it was suited for you."
Because I am not arrogant enough to be incapable of admiting I was wrong and changing my mind. The Scanlation is likely more faithful and literal to the Japanese Original.
"Don't need to talk anymore about the subversion of both Hideki Kamiya and his words, nor the contradictions on your on texts"
Subversion? I just analyzed the pattern of Hideki Kamiya and concluded that he isn't reliable.
You added nothing new to the table.
Third Disagreement: Kyo Takashi
"You starts off telling that it was nonsense to use the quote from Kamiya himself because it was short"
A one-word answer shows disinterest and is super vague.
"Kamiya could have answered "Building", "Planet", "Multiverse", or "Omniverse" and the answer would make as much connective sense, but answering universe implies that he is saying it is a Universe, so people accepted it. --- Wich clearly contradicts what is said in the last text that you brought from the Editing Rules"
No I didn't, dude. ANY one word response would make as much connective sense as saying "Universe". He didn't even directly answer the question directly. In terms of logical progression, if he said "Banana" or "Cat", it would make as much connective tissue.
But you jump into thinking it's right because you want Universal DMC, pure and simple.
"And then after you picked up some of the thousands of the trolling fans questions and Kamiya's answer to make your point about him not being reliable about his own work shine more"
Yes, because Kamiya trolls people and makes it abundantly clear he hates Vs Question and has been trolling people who ask Who Would Win questions to him since 2009. I'm sorry, but it's the fact.
"So, as you can see, Hideki Kamiya is a human who gets frustrated when fans ask him about things he already pleaded and raged them not to question or already answered, not taking very lightly when people ask him who would win in a fight against two characters that he created instead of asking something NEW AND PRODUCTIVE ABOUT THEM AS CHARACTERS, or even about their universe in particular"
And asking if Mundus can create a universe isn't a new and productive questio, it's a dumb VsDebating question which gets troll answers.
"It would be easy to fend off things about Kamiya's statements here, but you made the favor to contradict yourself once more and had given us an answer to the problems"
You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
"I would point bias, since your statement goes with a nonsensical random answer so people could leave him alone when the feat is already there (and frankly we all know what it is) and he simply clarifies what we already know, but meh, let me continue (as this would take more than needed) "
The feat isn't there, and only a wanker would look at something so vague and jump at the conclusion that Mundus is creating a universe. He didn't clarify anything, he is trolling the fanboys by giving them what they want to hear, knowing that they will embrace it regardless of how illogical it is.
If a Superman writer on twitter says that Superman has the power of the Big Bang, will you believe it? No, it's pure nonsense. Same thing here.
"Oh, and there is the point that he hates Battles between his characters, but he do not hate to clarify what happens in his games. He clarified what happend in his games more than just a few times, while i can chopp my head off if you found him saying which characters wins against wich in some Troll Question. But nah, you can't find it, because this is what you want to happen, not what Kamiya wants"
Yes, he doesn't mind answering normal questions, but asking if Mundus created a universe is a Vs Question. I'm sorry.
"The former is indeed the most valid one."
No it's not. Nothing clarifies it as such.
"You can't just simply come and say a Franchise that has a set number of Dimensions, and that take the Dimension topic seriously as **** (to the point any enemy that has any power following that line, Nightmare for example, has a larger role to play in the games)"
Nightmare uses nightmare illusions, dude.
"The main plot of ALL games is about the fights between Human World (One Dimension) and the Demon World (Another Dimension) - The Mirror World (Another Dimension) is simply the friggin passage to Hell - Nightmare's Dimension (Another Dimension) is a space created by Mundus (who created Nightmare) guarded by creatures that travels freely between both main dimensions (Human and Demon) (The Sargasso) that makes the victim revive his darkest fears and traumas"
Holy Non-Sequitur, man. So the Verse having other dimensions means that Mundus is creating a dimension? What sort of logic is this, what you said makes no connective sense. You are just appealing to instances where there are dimensions to insist that this scene with 0 clarification is a dimension creating feat when there is 0 evidence that it is.
"Yes, yes, yes. Forget the fact that Mundus had showed before 'Universe Level rating' by separating and then going to reunite The Human World and the Demon World and goes for the it proves nothing. Forget the Name = Power statement from Arkham too (that we know what you think about that statement ''vagueness... but when it comes from his daughter's statements, oh gosh, it is sacred stuff when she says about Abigail right?)"
All things I debunked, but you can't deal with that, can you?
"It is more likely, when we never saw in any DMC game a Character FORCING Dimensional Transportantion into another? Transporting yourself is other thing, but you are almost saying Mundus has Meta-Teleportantion man (are you sure you are trying to downgrade?)"
Meta-Teleportation doesn't exist, and we see demons creating portals and using teleportation in Devil May Cry, what's your point?
"'So, let's go to the putrid Overral Scaling...'"
Okay, listen. You are continuously throwing shade and being incredibly arrogant / rude in your post. This adds absolutely nothing to your argument and just makes you look like an angry biased fanboy. I would much rather appreciate you discuss peacefully as that would actually give credence to your arguments.
"No. You picked feats from Mid Tiers of the verse and said Hey, the verse has this powers. The Top and the God tiers should have no powers above this for the reason that i want it to be that way, even if backstory puts the god tiers lightyears above that. Seriously:"
I LITERALLY WATCHED ALL CUTSCENES FROM ALL DMC GAMES AND LISTED EVERY SINGLE FEAT.
THERE IS NOTHING ABOVE TIER 6 IN DMC.
Also, you also wank the notion of a God-Tier equating being "Lightyears ahead"
"Mundus, sealed in another Dimension and not using any avatar creating a storm"
He wasn't sealed anymore, dude. Nor was he weakened, and it is still one of the only two feats Mundus has.
"Mundus, sealed in another Dimension, never was stated to create Mallet Island, but his Defeat IN ANOTHER DIMENSION threatened to destroy it as backfire of his loss"
Mundus wasn't sealed anymore, and it is very likely he created it because Mundus dying led to it being destroyed.
"Human Arius, using a friggin summoning ritual to bring to the human world a God Tier of DMC, creating a large vortex of clouds"
It shows that the main villain of DMC 2 can't create storms by himself. "so over time that Nero, that is constantly in missions over there, because it's the way to the HQ, didn't have noticed before. Because you want it to be that way"
It is over-time, we have 0 STATEMENTS ABOUT THE TIMEFRAME, and it is likely it was over a period of time.
"It was Sid, a minor weaker demon that could not control Abigail's powers, that made a Multi-Continental level feat"
Nobody has proven to me that Current Abigail is weaker. This is a headcanon to try and hide the 3-A outlier.
"The Saviour starting a storm - I don't even remember that one (not that it really matters)"
It does matter, the only feat from a God Tier is Tier 7, how is it irrelevant?
"In reality, the strongest characters have their own considerations (like the fact that Argosax before it was even completely summoned was distorting the Human World, as Arius said, but i would have to pick that up later)."
A distortion which is never clarified and shown and which amounted to demons invading.
But yes, the strongest characters have the strongest feats, which are Mundus collapsing an island and Abigail doing continental clouds.
These are THE best reliable feats in all of DMC.
"The only humongous outlier that grossly contradicts the scale of the series as a whole was one made by yourself saying that Prime Abigail is as strong as Mundus, wich put him at 3-A on this wiki (wich a HIGHLY Disagree), going by a statement of Lady that is basically There was this guy that summoned Demons, and he could not control Abigail, wich i heard was as strong as the Demon King, so yeah, he is strong people (and, of course, your 'interpretatio of the narrative) "
No, she says that Abigail is comparable to Mundus, no reason to say he isn't. You once again deny it to hide the actual outlier which is Mundus being 4-A or 3-A.
"Can you believe that i actually agree in part with you right there? Who would have tough whu? I am saying about the part of the scale of course, because God Tiers in EVERY Fiction Work are supposedly Godly above another characters. They are MADE to be lightyears above the other ones in power"
Wow, you missed my point entirely. So I will reiterate.
None of the God Tiers other than Mundus show anything greater than Tier 7 or 6.
There.
"Dante before Prime and without Sparda's powers is in fact a Top Tier. He could One-Shot 'Sidgail' (another Top Tier) with ease using Devil Trigger, while with all HIS power alone he couldn't even scratch Mundus "I remember like it was yesterday, the post where you were trying to downgrade Mundus by using Lady's statement (The one that actually boosted Abigail to Universe Level, ugh)."
Dante in the Anime is stronger than Dante in DMC 1 since it takes place after. That only shows that Dante got strong enough to beat up Mundus level entities easily.
Abigail isn't Universal, man. Neither is Mundus.
"I talked about Pluto's, and you said something like Ugh, but the official translation has nothing to do with it."
Because there is 0 proof that Pluto = Mundus and actual evidence that he isn't.
"And it is no random scanlation, it is the official one, the one that counts and bla bla bla. So, when it is of your interest, you pick the scanlation one (''''that is more accurate to the japanese version'''') and when is of your interest, you pick the official one."
I changed my mind, but both translations debunk Universal Mundus. It doesn't matter.
"Interest to know more about the kind of person you are Matt. But let's not be stucked on personal affairs, shall we?"
Are you going to descend to Ad-Hominens now? Thank you.
"is outright stated to be allegorical - This doesn't matter at all... really '-'. It is HIS name. It is HIS power. It literally don't contradict in any point"
Do you know what an allegory means? Mundus has that name because of the evocative imagery and meaning, and to represent that he rules the Demon World. It doesn't mean that he is a Universe or Universal, that is literally the most absurd interpretation of his name possible.
"If you studied more Matt, you would see that Agni means Fire in Hindi, while Rudra means Wind"
Oh wow, don't act like you're a genius and I'm ignoring. I am 100% sure I know more about religions and mythology than you. But this is besides the point.
The point, which apparently you missed, is that Agni and Rudra in DMC are not the Hindu Gods, they are just demons with Fire and Wind powers. The names indicate their nature but are not literal.
Also, btw, what does the name Neva have to do with Succubi and Lightning? Absolutely nothing. So the supposed rule that Demon Names = Their nature and power isn't even consistent.
"So yeah, they are to be taken literally, your opinion on the matter can't change that. Specially when it has clear bias. When Arkham says a Demon's Powers depend on the Name, you say NO. When Arkham says The Human World was already there, and after some war the Underworld was born you say YES. *cough* BIAS BIAS BIAS *cough*"
Stop screaming and personally attacking me. The fact of the matter is we know Mundus and other Demon Names are allegorical but you want to use a character's name to say they are Universal when they have 0 Universal feats.
"No. From all we know he was born Mundus, and for what the Guidebook tells us (in the page you yourself showed us) it is stated that, and i quote: ...a dark prince of the Underworld mustered a great army of evil and slew the former God of Evil. He is named Mundus because he's powers extend to the meaning of that, not what you want to "
And this proves what exactly? I meant it is allegorical for the audience cause it evokes imagery and ideas to us.
"No. He said Mundus meaned Universe in Latin (So, an official interview that Kamiya states, albeit indirectly this time, that Mundus have Universe level of power. Cool)."
Wow, Mundus meaning Universe = Mundus being Universal?
I guess I am literally God's gift to the world cause this is what Matthew means.
"The rest is He is the ruler of the Underwolrd / We DESIGNED him God-Like instead of Devil-Like for the player to feel his Dignity and We choose because it gave him a good look. So, nothing contradicts the fact that he has more than one Universal Level Feat and that he's name, wich is akin to his power, Means Universe"
No, dude. It is saying that he Rules a Universe, not that he is Universal. The Queen of England isn't Country level.
"That was a bad joke you did there Akin to Its power no Akin to what he is"
Yes, the Ruler of the Demon World, not an Universal.
"Mundus fused the Demon World and the Human World. Wich are two halves of the universe - Should i explain that half of a Universe is still infinite? I think not"
The universe is finite, you need proof that the universe is infinite in DMC, when we don't have we use the size of the Observable Universe as a minimum.
"By the same reason that he do not simply appear in front of Dante the first moment he sets his feet on Mallet Island. HE WAS SEALED. Stuck in another Dimension"
HE WASN'T, AS EVIDENCED BY THE END OF THE GAME. He needed Preparation to open a Gate to invade the Demon World, and had resurrected and regained his power.
"only could send insignificant beings (close to him) that powers were so weak that the Seal, made for Stronger beings, couldn't contain."
What logic is this.
>Seal contains Mundus
>Seal can't contain foddders
???
"The smaller ones phased trough the wholes on the fence, while the bigger one couldn't."
Pure headcanon.
"It is so simple that is laughable how you simply ignore to get what you want."
The only thing which is laughable is insisting that a supposed Universal Reality Warper needs Prep-Time to open a portal.
"Two words: Human Creation. Temen-Ni-Gru was created by HUMANS, who divined DEMONS and wanted DEMON POWER, but, as the Underworld was sealed, they needed to build up a GATEWAY, so they could PASS TROUGH and gain their so desired DEMON POWER."
And it was through this gate that Demons invaded Earth, as evidenced By Sparda sealing Temen-Ni-Gru to stop demons from invading.
"Want me to expalin the rest of DMC 3 Plot or did you gathered what was needed?"
No need, I watched all the cutscenes and I think the story is fresher in my memory than yours.
"I expect the former, please. It is not cool to keep stating such obvious trivialities"
I'm glad you understand my side of things.
"No, Sparda needed. Sparda need after sealing basically ALL HIS POWER inside de Underworld"
NO, He sealed all of his power DURING THIS RITUAL, you are literally inverting the order of events and outright lying now.
"Man, i have to beg to stop the obvious trivialities? It's in the game!! You only need to play it"
You need to play it, since you are misremembering stuff now.
"You use only the things that favour your opinion."
I used literally everything.
"The scanlation thing made me go speechless when i read, to go from i have reason because my sources are official when you needed to i have reason because my sources are not official, but closely to japanese when it was suited for you."
Because I am not arrogant enough to be incapable of admiting I was wrong and changing my mind. The Scanlation is likely more faithful and literal to the Japanese Original.
"Don't need to talk anymore about the subversion of both Hideki Kamiya and his words, nor the contradictions on your on texts"
Subversion? I just analyzed the pattern of Hideki Kamiya and concluded that he isn't reliable.
You added nothing new to the table.
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"Dante told this to Sid. Sid was anguisty crying by the fact that he couldn't beat Dante, even getting the most powerful he could would be useless, and he asked why. That was Dante's response"
Look at the actual line: For people with a rotten soul like you even if they obtain power they are no match for someone with a real soul"
Dante is still admitting that Sid obtained Abigail's power but is saying that he lost because he is evil. It's a meaningless "Good will prevail!" statement, that's it.
"Yes, they are the same. The things they wanted to do was the same thing and even Sparda was depicted on the Legend"
No they are not, their goals are 100% separate and Pluto is only refered to in in-universe Mythology.
"Yes, Pluto and Mundus are the same, as the guy with Black Wings of Treachery is Sparda"
No.
"Wich would be....?"
The fact that he needs prep-time to open a portal to invade Earth rather than fuse the universes. I explained this in my OP.
"In-Universe mythology becomes worthless when it don't favors you"
No, In-universe mythology is worthless BECAUSE IT IS MYTH. We have 0 proof that it is even true.
This is like saying Yu Yevon from Final Fantasy X is 3-A because the people who worship him think he is.
"No, the demon with Black Horns was Sparda. Sparda HAS Black Horns. Mundus is White. It is his design, that Kamiya cares the most. It wasn't Mundus, nor Mundus appears physically in any chapter of the Manga, nor in any other piece of frenchise apart from DMC 1. It will not be Mundus just because you want it to be"
"A black-horned demon god. Only Mundus is ever referred to as a Demon God, because he is the God of the Demons.
It is Mundus.
"Yeah yeah, he needed to use the Amulet (wich is HIS creation with HIS own power). Ingenious. He needed prep because he abandoned his powers so he shoul not turn into an evil being"
He still needed to use tools, sacrifice most of his power, and outside help from a priestess to seal a portal.
How can you not realize that this is a tremendous low-end feat for someone who is supposedly Universal according to you?
"No, it don't. Nothing fits with that story. And, like you said before, is in-universe mythology, so its worthless"
Yes, it is, I am just explaining why the In-Universe Mythology makes more sense if you accept that Pluto isn't Mundus. Pluto separated Heaven and Earth and Mundus rebelled. Fits exactly with what Arkham says in the Official Translation.
But I am using Scanlation anyway so it is pointless.
"will just repeat what i said before: Vs Bullshit he will not answer."
Asking if Mundus creates Universes is a Vs Bullshit question.
"He did not like it, and the ones who question it are the real trolls."
No, Kamiya is the real troll because he is trolling people like you to this day. He has trolled "Did Mundus create a universe" questions before.
"You are being partial for saying that it's his fault, when it clearly is not."
It is, he chooses to troll people.
"He gave direct and correct answers about thing on HIS works."
When it isn't Vs Related, and he often still trolls normal questions if they are stupid.
"It's not his fault that ******** fans go ask him stupid questions that he ******* PROHIBITED"
It is also not his fault if said fans are incapable of realizing that they aren't being trolled or simply choose to believe they aren't.
Look at the actual line: For people with a rotten soul like you even if they obtain power they are no match for someone with a real soul"
Dante is still admitting that Sid obtained Abigail's power but is saying that he lost because he is evil. It's a meaningless "Good will prevail!" statement, that's it.
"Yes, they are the same. The things they wanted to do was the same thing and even Sparda was depicted on the Legend"
No they are not, their goals are 100% separate and Pluto is only refered to in in-universe Mythology.
"Yes, Pluto and Mundus are the same, as the guy with Black Wings of Treachery is Sparda"
No.
"Wich would be....?"
The fact that he needs prep-time to open a portal to invade Earth rather than fuse the universes. I explained this in my OP.
"In-Universe mythology becomes worthless when it don't favors you"
No, In-universe mythology is worthless BECAUSE IT IS MYTH. We have 0 proof that it is even true.
This is like saying Yu Yevon from Final Fantasy X is 3-A because the people who worship him think he is.
"No, the demon with Black Horns was Sparda. Sparda HAS Black Horns. Mundus is White. It is his design, that Kamiya cares the most. It wasn't Mundus, nor Mundus appears physically in any chapter of the Manga, nor in any other piece of frenchise apart from DMC 1. It will not be Mundus just because you want it to be"
"A black-horned demon god. Only Mundus is ever referred to as a Demon God, because he is the God of the Demons.
It is Mundus.
"Yeah yeah, he needed to use the Amulet (wich is HIS creation with HIS own power). Ingenious. He needed prep because he abandoned his powers so he shoul not turn into an evil being"
He still needed to use tools, sacrifice most of his power, and outside help from a priestess to seal a portal.
How can you not realize that this is a tremendous low-end feat for someone who is supposedly Universal according to you?
"No, it don't. Nothing fits with that story. And, like you said before, is in-universe mythology, so its worthless"
Yes, it is, I am just explaining why the In-Universe Mythology makes more sense if you accept that Pluto isn't Mundus. Pluto separated Heaven and Earth and Mundus rebelled. Fits exactly with what Arkham says in the Official Translation.
But I am using Scanlation anyway so it is pointless.
"will just repeat what i said before: Vs Bullshit he will not answer."
Asking if Mundus creates Universes is a Vs Bullshit question.
"He did not like it, and the ones who question it are the real trolls."
No, Kamiya is the real troll because he is trolling people like you to this day. He has trolled "Did Mundus create a universe" questions before.
"You are being partial for saying that it's his fault, when it clearly is not."
It is, he chooses to troll people.
"He gave direct and correct answers about thing on HIS works."
When it isn't Vs Related, and he often still trolls normal questions if they are stupid.
"It's not his fault that ******** fans go ask him stupid questions that he ******* PROHIBITED"
It is also not his fault if said fans are incapable of realizing that they aren't being trolled or simply choose to believe they aren't.
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I agree with this sentiment because knowing Kyo and Sparda, this will literally just go back and forth for eternity.Antvasima said:
People who agree: TheJ-ManRequiem, The Real Cal Howard, Dragonmasterxyz, The Everlasting, Ultima Reality, Js250476, Saikou The Lewd King, LordGriffin1000, Hellbeast1, MrKingOfNegativity, Knightofannihilation666, KarmodF, Weekly Battles, FateAlbane, Gargoyle One, ArbitraryNumbers, Antoniofier, Promestein, ShrekAlmighty, Huesito88, Blahblah9755, God-King Superman77, Super Saiyan God Julian, GimmyJibbsJr, HeroicDefender97, DarkDragonMedeus, Kaltias, Dark649, Shadowbokunohero, Therefir, Antvasima, JustSomeWeirdo
(Also got kudos from Steel Justice, TheSandman31, Eficiente, Ramesses the Sun King and CrossverseCrisis [Told me he agrees in PM])
People who disagree and actually gave reasons as to why: Sparda 20000000, O Virgílio, Kyo Takashi
Solve this through democracy.
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Top 10 Most Brutal Anime Deaths
Anyway, I've been reading these arguments and I must say, I agree
Anyway, I've been reading these arguments and I must say, I agree
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Seems goodDark649 said:
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If we accept that the story in the Devil May Cry Manga official translation about Mundus rebelling against God and him and the demons falling into the Underworld which was created during the War in Heaven, yes, it would seem so.Js250476 said:
The DMC Manga mentions a Primordial Light which split the Universe into two.
It does fit with the Pluto stuff.
I would actually like a DMC 5 that explores angels and whatnot, seems interesting.
But them again, we sorta got that with Bayonetta (Did you know that Bayonetta implies that Dante's mother Eva was an Umbra Witch?)
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Umm....No one would scale at all, but can a profile be made?Matthew Schroeder said:
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