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It would be really good
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Devil May Cry Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Mister6ame6
- Start date
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- devil may cry
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As an independent game it was okay. As a DMC game, it was sewage. Utterly disrespectful to the original and its audience, basically directly telling the people who liked the original to go bleep themselves in the game itself, complete with Not Dante glaring at the screen while insulting the audience. All while directly profiting off the original's name.
DMC2 was a game that introduced some good new things, but its mechanics, particularly its lock-on mechanics, combined with the changes to Dante's personality, severely dragged it down. Ironically Lucia was more interesting than he was in the game, having a genuine character arc involving self-acceptance, family and overcoming the circumstances of one's birth. That's why people requested her reappearance in DMC5, which very much surprised the developers, and I think is why they brought her back and ship-teased her in the Before the Nightmare novel.
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We have to admit that Dante from DMC Devil May Cray is very cool making fun of the original Dante, the story is very good, the gameplay even better, it was a Reboot to do everything right, but then original fans came with blood in their eyes and set fire to the game, everything was completely new and with a better explanation of the story
Dante's personality in DMC 2 is not very well seen in him, he was never so serious, the game had horrible mechanics, which got to the point of nausea when you encountered the enemies, literally the game was a bad adaptation, it seems that the whole plot was designed in a hurry, the difficulty of the game was horrible, i put it on hard and it was extremely easy, bosses without essence, i don't think Lucia's story was well appreciated, it even seems that the directors wanted to remove Dante as the protagonist as they did in DMC4, but at least they did a little with Lucia.
Although, they fixed every mistake in DMC 2 in 3 and did an excellent job, so much so that it is the most loved to this day, i believe DMC 2 could be better, but it really wasn't like DMC 1 where every villain and game mechanic was excellent, Even the enemies during the game weren't boring like in DMC 2, maybe someday they'll remake 2, it's what needs it most, apart from all those boring parts, and improve the story further and add things from the novel.
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It wasn't making fun, it was a mean-spirited middle finger to the audience. Not the best way to win them over. Imagine if Kevin Smith was contracted to remake the LOTR trilogy, and then restated his previous opinions about how it should have gone and his opinion of the audience. I literally shouldn't say what he said about it here, but ironically it would still be better than this, because at least Smith wasn't delivering it with spite, just condescension. The key is that the behaviour of the reboot devs was blatantly intended not in good fun, but as an expression of spite.
If you like rip-offs of the Matrix with a drunk slob instead of Keanu. Even the final boss was ripped off from the original plan for Agent Smith to literally merge with the city which was scrapped due to budget concerns.
Gameplay was okay.
... Not so much. Telling your audience that they're trash and being intentionally spiteful towards them isn't doing things right.
Funny how burning down peoples' series, insulting them for not liking what you've done and even working those insults into your product in an intentionally spiteful way alienates your audience. So many people working in entertainment media don't seem to get that.
Not better so much. Acceptable as a self-contained non-DMC story. Hence, would have been okay as a different and independent title. Still not a DMC game. If someone remakes Dragon Ball with Goku as a robot made in a lab by Doctor Gohan, and Bulma as an old homeless woman who took him in and raised him while Roshi is now leading a resistance against the rich human Frieza and the other robot Majin Buu's united world empire of Earth, it could be an okay story, but it isn't Dragon Ball. If that story also repeatedly mocks the real Dragon Ball and its audience in a way that is clearly spiteful rather than just in good fun, it's going to get a bad reaction.
Lucia has a lot of unrealized potential as a character. Especially with her relationship with Matier, which needs more exploring.
I think that was the start of the push to remove him, but I also don't think it was the serious attempt that the later ones were.
Appearances by Beryl and Enzo on-screen might be nice.
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Bruh. That was literally the worst stunt they could have pulled out, mocking the fans you are supposed to be trying to appeal to is stupid and one of the many reasons why it failed miserably.
The story is pretty much meh, generic at best, trash at worst. Gameplay was straight up bad. I remember how buggy and slow and unfun it was, the mechanics were shit too (color code enemies lol) and the controls were dumbed down so much even PoC 1.4 had better gameplay.
Honestly even if they dropped the game without DMC in the name it would have been trash.
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Dragon's Dogma fans: first time?
Tanin_iver
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Wouldn't it be the other way around tho, chronologically speaking?
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True but DMC 5 was and still is an excellent sequel to DMC 4 that was worth waiting for meanwhile DD2 is a very flawed yet fun sequel to DD that wasn't worth waiting for.
Though in typical Capcom fashion I expect paid DLC and/or a definitive version for DD2 (similar to the definitive edition of DMC 5) but it's pretty jarring seeing DD Dark Arisen cost a fraction of the price of DD2 yet still has significantly more content which is ironic considering roughly half of the intended content of DD was cut due to budget constraints and now that Itsuno (presumably) received the time and money to fully realize his intended vision for the DD franchise that he couldn't do with the first game and you'll think the sequel would at least have comparable content to a 10+ yrs old game with it's DLC (nearly half the intended content cut ofc) yet the sequel doesn't even have simple stuff anymore like "hardmode" and for every QoL improvement/addition (a significantly more detailed creator, spells take less time to cast plus are more accurate, new vocations, etc) another feature is completely messed up compared to the first game (mircotransactions for in-game items, there are less spells to choose from plus are less diverse, vocations getting removed, etc).
Add in the fact while DMC 5 (base) received almost universally positive feedback and is generally seen as an amazing game, DD2 (base) is receiving heavily mixed feedback and is generally seen as a good game with big flaws which considering these are games some peeps have waited over a decade for is pretty much like night and day.
Indeed, why is Itsuno like this? But considering Capcom's history (E.g Asura's Wrath having it's true ending being locked behind a paywall) and the increase MTXs and monetization in Capcom games they might've been some corporate meddling too, tho that's doesn't excuse Itsuno from insulting parts of the DMC fandom.
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Tanin_iver
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I was actually talking about comparing DMC Reboot to DMC4, which was a kick in the balls to the OG fans of the series. But you are correct about DMC5 and Dragons Dogma 2.
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I mean the reboot being permanently abbreviated as DmC says it all tbh. A game with good gameplay but it really should've been it's own thing and not a reboot to a beloved Capcom franchise (at a time where the future of iconic and cult classic IPs was up in the air).
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I still enjoyed my run of DD2, flaws and all. Although, I have a feeling they've cut content out to release later though, not new for Capcom starting from what I remember with SF vs Tekken characters. I reckon they did similar with DMC 5, not having bloody palace on release.
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Fun fact, Capcom's stunt of hiding Asura's Wrath's true ending behind a paywall has been repeated. They also did it with one of the Deadrising games, the fourth, I think. Asura's Wrath severely suffered for that action, and it happening near the same time as the Reboot didn't help. I do know that the guy who was pushing to Westernise everything and was behind the Reboot and a lot of the other stupid stuff made at that time did get fired.
Still, history sadly proves to us that learning lessons from their mistakes is not a skill Capcom has, but then very few media companies have that skill. That habit of making something people don't want, insulting them for not wanting it all through production, having it flop and then calling the audience all sorts of insulting and sometimes even reprehensible things for not supporting it, is becoming increasingly common.
Still, history sadly proves to us that learning lessons from their mistakes is not a skill Capcom has, but then very few media companies have that skill. That habit of making something people don't want, insulting them for not wanting it all through production, having it flop and then calling the audience all sorts of insulting and sometimes even reprehensible things for not supporting it, is becoming increasingly common.
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With the end of the Chaos Timeline story, Hellfilth comes in question.
I've been noting most of the Chaos Timeline appearances, the appearances have been linked with the Broken Gear as it allows it's user get there via portals.
-------------------------------
Vergil: Count Thunder
CT Vergil uses it first in his side story, after traversing the Memory Corridor and then arriving in the following unique areas and eventually reoccurring areas, Edge of Darkness, Ruins of Agony, Chaos Plaza and Twilight Altar.
------‐------------------------
Dante: Destined Executioner
Lily then has possession of the Broken Gear in part 2 of the Dante's Destined Executioner story, using it in the Unknown Ground area to traverse through the same places CT Vergil went after getting to the Chaos Timeline, the areas Dante and Lily go through is the Edge of Darkness and Ruins of Agony.
Part 3 of the Destined Executioner has Vergil suddenly ambushed and taken by Hellfilth after Dante and Vergil's fight, this occurs at the Clock Tower area.
----‐--------------------------
V: Charismatic Ally
V uses the Broken Gear to track down Nightmares and other stuff...he travels to the Twilight Altar to fight Nightmare Phantom, the scan for this is in the Theories section at the bottom of the post.
-------------------------------
Dante: Blazing Tempest
Dante travelling with Lily who is still in possession of the Broken Gear, in the Blazing Tempest side story, starts him off in the Ruins of Agony, Dante goes to a few other locations and finally at the Twilight Altar (for the 2nd time the player gets to this area in PoC) where Lily states they're in a rift between worlds, where the rules of time and space are different.
---------------------------
Part 2 of the Blazing Tempest side story Lily and Dante form a plan to get another demon artefact, Lily states they need energy, the energy they collect is Chaos energy from defeating demons in the Ruins of Agony.
--------------------------------
Part 3, Dante and Lily arrive in the Nightmare space, the area they're in is called the Nightmare Shore, as they traverse ahead they get to an area familiar to Coop boss players, Hellfilth's boss arena which has an area name of the Nightmare Balcony (the Hellfilth boss fight doesn't name any of the areas, so only now we are getting the names for these areas). Lily mentions that this realm has a master, and said master doesn't want to meet Dante and Lily.
-------------------------------
Random theories I was thinking of whilst playing through..
With our prior knowledge of Hellfilth through her description in the strategy guide, we know she is the source of all Nightmares, and the Nightmare space she has control over is her domain.
I'm going to say the Edge of Darkness, Ruins of Agony, Chaos Plaza and Twilight Altar areas are within the Chaos Timeline, with other areas being part of it too, but I can't be definite on the others, so they won't be used in the Theories.
Theory 1
In part 3 of Blazing Tempest, Lily and Dante stop traversing the Chaos Timeline and end up using the Broken Gear to travel to Hellfilth's Nightmare world/realm/space, which is completely separate from the Chaos Timeline.
Theory 2
The Chaos Timeline is Hellfilth's realm/domain.
Reasoning- In part 2 of Blazing Tempest, the Ruins of Agony and Twilight Altar areas have the mission objective of explore the mysterious space, when you reach part 3 of BT, this mission objective changes to Nightmare space meaning that the Chaos Timeline CT Vergil, CA V got to is the Nightmare Space.
Counter- The mysterious space can still mean the Chaos Timeline as the Nightmare space is only revealed after Dante/Lily get to the Nightmare Shore/Balcony.
Reasoning- Hellfilth is able to traverse the Chaos Timeline freely like when she randomly appeared in the Clock Tower without being in possession of the Broken Gear, which shouldn't be possibly without the Broken Gear unless she in fact is the master of the Chaos Timeline.
Counter- This could be explained that in her strategy guide description, she is stated to wander beyond time and space and could just be moving through timelines/realms/whatever due to her power.
Random baseless reasoning - Taking into consideration her vast magnitude of power, being the source of all Nightmares and the embodiment of fear, her having nightmare versions of Demon lords such as Nightmare Calibur, where the normal Calibur first appeared in the Chaos Plaza (Chaos Timeline) story wise, and this statement stating that all demons have nightmare versions of themselves, in V's Charismatic Ally story (minor note that the demons she created, all have a more powerful move set and more expansive abilities than the original)
Then getting slightly into the metaphysical aspect of Nightmares/dreams in DMC, Nightmares are transcendental beings, can exist independently from their original and retain all the memories from them too, even after the originals death, like when Nightmare Phantom (who appears at the Twilight Altar) remembered V killing the OG in the Visions of V manga and the statement that they exist in a separate realm which I got from this statement I've borrowed from Palito266's blog. Said realm which could be the one Hellfilth created as she is the source of all nightmares.
https://imgur.com/a/p0uzX5w
https://imgur.com/S8A97vN
Counter- This reasoning of mine is mainly just assumption based on her power, reach and interference with the Chaos Timeline so far in the story, PoC could easily state otherwise in future side stories.
I personally believe 1, that it's separate and Hellfilth has her own separate thing. The Chaos Timeline is separate.
---------------------------
Chaos Timeline attributes
-Has a different time and space to ours.
-So far you can only get there by using the Broken Gear.
-Contains Chaos energy, said energy was able to be harvested from Demons in the Ruins of Agony area and others.
-Links to Hellfilth via Nightmares appearing within it and her just moving around it.
-Called Chaos Space-Time in the JP version
-Various Demons spawn from it, meaning it should have it's own demon world as demons originate from there, the Demon crystal's scattered around also suggest high concentrates of demonic power as crystallised demon blood is that.
-----------------------------
@SuperSonicTL I saw your theory about the Chaos Timeline being the DW, you mentioned no mention of DW throughout PoC, I found this if that's sufficient?
https://imgur.com/a/Mke7rX4
I've been noting most of the Chaos Timeline appearances, the appearances have been linked with the Broken Gear as it allows it's user get there via portals.
-------------------------------
Vergil: Count Thunder
CT Vergil uses it first in his side story, after traversing the Memory Corridor and then arriving in the following unique areas and eventually reoccurring areas, Edge of Darkness, Ruins of Agony, Chaos Plaza and Twilight Altar.
------‐------------------------
Dante: Destined Executioner
Lily then has possession of the Broken Gear in part 2 of the Dante's Destined Executioner story, using it in the Unknown Ground area to traverse through the same places CT Vergil went after getting to the Chaos Timeline, the areas Dante and Lily go through is the Edge of Darkness and Ruins of Agony.
Part 3 of the Destined Executioner has Vergil suddenly ambushed and taken by Hellfilth after Dante and Vergil's fight, this occurs at the Clock Tower area.
----‐--------------------------
V: Charismatic Ally
V uses the Broken Gear to track down Nightmares and other stuff...he travels to the Twilight Altar to fight Nightmare Phantom, the scan for this is in the Theories section at the bottom of the post.
-------------------------------
Dante: Blazing Tempest
Dante travelling with Lily who is still in possession of the Broken Gear, in the Blazing Tempest side story, starts him off in the Ruins of Agony, Dante goes to a few other locations and finally at the Twilight Altar (for the 2nd time the player gets to this area in PoC) where Lily states they're in a rift between worlds, where the rules of time and space are different.
---------------------------
Part 2 of the Blazing Tempest side story Lily and Dante form a plan to get another demon artefact, Lily states they need energy, the energy they collect is Chaos energy from defeating demons in the Ruins of Agony.
--------------------------------
Part 3, Dante and Lily arrive in the Nightmare space, the area they're in is called the Nightmare Shore, as they traverse ahead they get to an area familiar to Coop boss players, Hellfilth's boss arena which has an area name of the Nightmare Balcony (the Hellfilth boss fight doesn't name any of the areas, so only now we are getting the names for these areas). Lily mentions that this realm has a master, and said master doesn't want to meet Dante and Lily.
-------------------------------
Random theories I was thinking of whilst playing through..
With our prior knowledge of Hellfilth through her description in the strategy guide, we know she is the source of all Nightmares, and the Nightmare space she has control over is her domain.
I'm going to say the Edge of Darkness, Ruins of Agony, Chaos Plaza and Twilight Altar areas are within the Chaos Timeline, with other areas being part of it too, but I can't be definite on the others, so they won't be used in the Theories.
Theory 1
In part 3 of Blazing Tempest, Lily and Dante stop traversing the Chaos Timeline and end up using the Broken Gear to travel to Hellfilth's Nightmare world/realm/space, which is completely separate from the Chaos Timeline.
Theory 2
The Chaos Timeline is Hellfilth's realm/domain.
Reasoning- In part 2 of Blazing Tempest, the Ruins of Agony and Twilight Altar areas have the mission objective of explore the mysterious space, when you reach part 3 of BT, this mission objective changes to Nightmare space meaning that the Chaos Timeline CT Vergil, CA V got to is the Nightmare Space.
Counter- The mysterious space can still mean the Chaos Timeline as the Nightmare space is only revealed after Dante/Lily get to the Nightmare Shore/Balcony.
Reasoning- Hellfilth is able to traverse the Chaos Timeline freely like when she randomly appeared in the Clock Tower without being in possession of the Broken Gear, which shouldn't be possibly without the Broken Gear unless she in fact is the master of the Chaos Timeline.
Counter- This could be explained that in her strategy guide description, she is stated to wander beyond time and space and could just be moving through timelines/realms/whatever due to her power.
Random baseless reasoning - Taking into consideration her vast magnitude of power, being the source of all Nightmares and the embodiment of fear, her having nightmare versions of Demon lords such as Nightmare Calibur, where the normal Calibur first appeared in the Chaos Plaza (Chaos Timeline) story wise, and this statement stating that all demons have nightmare versions of themselves, in V's Charismatic Ally story (minor note that the demons she created, all have a more powerful move set and more expansive abilities than the original)
Then getting slightly into the metaphysical aspect of Nightmares/dreams in DMC, Nightmares are transcendental beings, can exist independently from their original and retain all the memories from them too, even after the originals death, like when Nightmare Phantom (who appears at the Twilight Altar) remembered V killing the OG in the Visions of V manga and the statement that they exist in a separate realm which I got from this statement I've borrowed from Palito266's blog. Said realm which could be the one Hellfilth created as she is the source of all nightmares.
https://imgur.com/a/p0uzX5w
https://imgur.com/S8A97vN
Counter- This reasoning of mine is mainly just assumption based on her power, reach and interference with the Chaos Timeline so far in the story, PoC could easily state otherwise in future side stories.
I personally believe 1, that it's separate and Hellfilth has her own separate thing. The Chaos Timeline is separate.
---------------------------
Chaos Timeline attributes
-Has a different time and space to ours.
-So far you can only get there by using the Broken Gear.
-Contains Chaos energy, said energy was able to be harvested from Demons in the Ruins of Agony area and others.
-Links to Hellfilth via Nightmares appearing within it and her just moving around it.
-Called Chaos Space-Time in the JP version
-Various Demons spawn from it, meaning it should have it's own demon world as demons originate from there, the Demon crystal's scattered around also suggest high concentrates of demonic power as crystallised demon blood is that.
-----------------------------
@SuperSonicTL I saw your theory about the Chaos Timeline being the DW, you mentioned no mention of DW throughout PoC, I found this if that's sufficient?
https://imgur.com/a/Mke7rX4
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They literally have a meme there as a pfp lmao
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Capcom has been aware of many jokes or the like, such as Chun Li being thicc, Akuma casually messatsu child and that you cant fix AKI
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Also Deviljho being a pickle...
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Nero doesn't have a story mode tho
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I meant the 3 story chapters that came out with Devil Bringer Nero, not a full fleged story but the side stories the other characters have been getting like Trish, V etc etc.
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Is that thing about DW containing the human world and being infinite before it still valid?
I've seen some verses get 2-A because a space contains a Low 2-C structure and is infinite.
You could try the same.
I've seen some verses get 2-A because a space contains a Low 2-C structure and is infinite.
You could try the same.
Oliver_de_jesus
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I mean, Peak of mid dont say something about Chaos Timeline have Infinity timelines which exist on Demon world?
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This wouldn't qualify. A space containing a Low 2-C structure and is infinite in size could just be Low 2-C itself (say the Low 2-C structure it contains is finite in size, for instance)
2-A is containing an infinite number of Low 2-C structures
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DMC should easily get 2A with the discussion we had on the CRT and it will be applied soon.
But that is wrong because the structure is supposed to be L1C instead knowing the standards.
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To be clear, you would need a separate thread for that. You shouldn't be changing any profiles based on your most recent thread.
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I think it would be better to make that thread as a new thread with formatted justifications. Don't include anything about tier 1, because that just makes a huge mess.
Start with 2-A, and if the thread brings about discussion of Low 1-C being more valid, then switch to that. Otherwise just start with 2-A then try Low 1-C later. Keep in mind that repeated attempts at the same upgrade will result in it being a banned thread.
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Since now i understood how the wiki evaluation system works and the tiering system in general, I'll bring more positive cases here with quotes from FAQ to support my claim.
As to what exactly i wanna prove there back then but can't due to my limitations in knowledge on that matter specifically.
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Best not to work alone either. Get input from other supporters.
Edit: I was just reading another revision thread and Clover said:
It seems there is a case for the Demon World satisfying this requirement. It is repeatedly stated to be infinite in size, and it is referred to as infinite in relation to the human world which is a Low 2-C structure, a structure it also used to contain. I've noticed that the thing that trips up your cosmology upgrades is the issue of qualitative superiority, which is irrelevant to 2-A. The easier the upgrade is, the harder it is to block.
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That's the plan yeah.
That's the thing my friend, it isn't.
Its never compared to the L2C structure and was stated to be infinite as its own stuff... As a container.
2A perhaps would be good but ultimately that ain't my goal at all however I would still try to ask someone to apply it for now.
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You'd need a CRT for that. This makes it sound like you want someone to change the profiles to this right now.
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It is referred to as infinite darkness while the human world is referred to as a single ray of light. Likened to a finite ray of light in infinite darkness.
Start with 2-A. Tier 1 is highly subjective. In fact, arguably anything above 2-C is subjective, with subjective standards.
I don't think SonicTL means applying changes without a CRT.
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I'll make a CRT later down the line.
However this could've been much better if we actually came to a conclusion in that previous CRT.
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Well, yes, but everything you proposed was wrong.
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Aside from 5D sub-realms, the space of overarching timeline and Multiversal space scaling.
Everything else made perfect sense but i digress. Next time i start from basic then i get my way up from there.
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