Demonbane 1-As downgrade

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

I am uneasy about using a twitter post to support 1-A Demonbane, however I would love to hear everyone else's opinion on this.

 

[Supreme_of_Universe]

Some of these links dont work (bcs of twitter is a shit), but all of these tweets are related. As a last resort I may list it again

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we can only go by what was revealed in the series itself.

Is somebody here willing and able to apply what Sleepy has accepted?

 

[Antvasima]

Or is somebody willing to ask Sleepy to comment here again?

 

[Ogbunabali]

That twitter thing is extremely unreliable, and even at face value, it wouldn't be 1-A, but Low 1-C. Unless it's stated that it transcends infinite dimensions (and those dimensions are of qualitatively superior), or that their transcendence of dimensions encompasses all extensions of them. Which does not seem to be the case from everything that's been posted here.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

@Antvasima

Sleepy has stated that he is no longer willing nor has the time to help us out anymore, as he is too busy IRL and overworked. So we will have to proceed without him.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I agree that it is extremely unreliable too, for supporting 2-A/Low 1-C or for supporting 1-A.

Btw, fthe rating we're going to give, I'm not sure which scans are supposed to prove Low 1-C in the thread, it looks 2-A to me.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Let's ignore the Twitter reply then. Is somebody willing to apply what Sleepy accepted earlier? We would need to update the Demonbane Explanation Page as well.

 

[QuasiYuri]

What need to be updated in the Demonbane Explanation Page tho? Tbh it fits perfectly with the tier proposed, and what was said in the CRT is already in.

For the profiles, the justifications I gave are fine for 2-A I think. However if we want just Low 1-C, I would like to know if someone have scans for this for the justifications.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I thought that the page currently justifies a 1-A rating, but may misremember.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I had the idea of this thread when I saw that the explanation page didn't justified 1-A, however the verse page would need an update.

I can change anything which need to be updated in my free time if needed.

 

[Planck69]

I could probably help with changing the verse page right away if that's OK. At the very least I can remove the 1-A connotations from the explanation so as to make the revision easier. That and remove the cross-scaling from the OG Mythos the page seems to imply.

 

[QuasiYuri]

So it would mean removing this whole part?

"Finally, the Outer and Elder Gods exist beyond the entirety of existence, transcending dimensional space and time, causality, all concepts, all information, existing in the primordial Chaos from which all originate. As further evidence of this, Nyarlathotep is capable of effortlessly creating Klein Bottles, which are Infinite-Dimensional Multiverses, in which entire universes comprised of infinite space and time are no more than infinitesimally small particles in a higher-universe, which itself contains its own infinite space and time, and the cycles perpetuates infinitely.

The highest Outer and Elder Gods, Yog-Sothoth and Elder God Demonbane, are so immeasurably above regular deities that those are to them like humans are to gods, with the former being the totality of existence, nonexistence and of the primal chaos, rendering all lesser deities infinitesimally small portions of him.The latter contains the sleeping dream-self of the creator Azathoth as his power source."

 

[Planck69]

So it would mean removing this whole part?
"Finally, the Outer and Elder Gods exist beyond the entirety of existence, transcending dimensional space and time, causality, all concepts, all information, existing in the primordial Chaos from which all originate. As further evidence of this, Nyarlathotep is capable of effortlessly creating Klein Bottles, which are Infinite-Dimensional Multiverses, in which entire universes comprised of infinite space and time are no more than infinitesimally small particles in a higher-universe, which itself contains its own infinite space and time, and the cycles perpetuates infinitely.

The highest Outer and Elder Gods, Yog-Sothoth and Elder God Demonbane, are so immeasurably above regular deities that those are to them like humans are to gods, with the former being the totality of existence, nonexistence and of the primal chaos, rendering all lesser deities infinitesimally small portions of him.The latter contains the sleeping dream-self of the creator Azathoth as his power source."

I could probabaly reword it to fit better with the new tiering if that's alright. Something like:

"Finally, the Outer and Elder Gods exist beyond all of existence, transcending space and time, causality, all concepts and all information, existing in the primordial Chaos from which all originate. As further evidence of this, Nyarlathotep is capable of effortlessly creating Klein Bottles, which are self contained multiverses with infinite parallel space-time continua.

The highest Outer and Elder Gods, Yog-Sothoth and Elder God Demonbane, are immeasurably above regular deities, with Yog-Sothoth being the totality of existence, nonexistence and of the primal chaos, rendering all lesser deities infinitesimally small portions of itself and Elder God Demonbane containing the sleeping dream-self of the creator Azathoth as his power source."

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Btw, fthe rating we're going to give, I'm not sure which scans are supposed to prove Low 1-C in the thread, it looks 2-A to me.

"Transcending dimension" is Low 1-C without further context, and apparently Nyarlathotep embodies a void of nothingness beyond the space-time of the multiverse, so that'd be Low 1-C as well.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

I agree with @Ultima Reality about Low 1-C

 

[QuasiYuri]

"Transcending dimension" is Low 1-C without further context, and apparently Nyarlathotep embodies a void of nothingness beyond the space-time of the multiverse, so that'd be Low 1-C as well.

Isn't this better for "possibly 1-C"? It was still at a time where Klein Bottle was a thing if I remember where it was said. Some characters (like Dormammu or Jean Grey) just have a "possibly Low 1-C" for more than this.

I know that Nya is the primordial chaos, however the scan supposed to show it in the thread doesn't make any mention of transcendence.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Dormammu and The Phoenix are possibly Low 1-C because they scale to someone who has a feat that is very likely to be at that level, but is still vague enough to leave some room for doubt. The stuff about the Demonbane people existing beyond space-time and dimensions is pretty clear-cut from what I see, on the other hand, not to mention the scans regarding Azathoth seeing the entire verse as a dream.

"Transcendence" doesn't need to be explicitly mentioned, we can infer that based on its descriptions as well. I recall seeing a scan saying space and time are meaningless to Nyar, and another which mentions both concepts are "unknowable" in the Court of Chaos.

 

[Overlord775]

Dormammu and The Phoenix are possibly Low 1-C because they scale to someone who has a feat that is very likely to be at that level, but is still vague enough to leave some room for doubt.

Just wanna mention something, there's also the fact that Dormamu's Dark Dimension, which he has full control over, is stated to be dimensionally superior to 6.3-D space

 

[QuasiYuri]

Eternity's statements seems more clear than Demonbane's ones tho.

At the time of the statements and given that 2-A is something from the strongest weapon before the Demonbane who killed Azzy, it seems weird for Nya to be above it. Also can't this work for 2-As with immeasurable speed?

 

[Antvasima]

I could probabaly reword it to fit better with the new tiering if that's alright. Something like:

"Finally, the Outer and Elder Gods exist beyond all of existence, transcending space and time, causality, all concepts and all information, existing in the primordial Chaos from which all originate. As further evidence of this, Nyarlathotep is capable of effortlessly creating Klein Bottles, which are self contained multiverses with infinite parallel space-time continua.

The highest Outer and Elder Gods, Yog-Sothoth and Elder God Demonbane, are immeasurably above regular deities, with Yog-Sothoth being the totality of existence, nonexistence and of the primal chaos, rendering all lesser deities infinitesimally small portions of itself and Elder God Demonbane containing the sleeping dream-self of the creator Azathoth as his power source."

@Ultima, Ogbunabali, Julian, Matthew & DarkGrath

Is this acceptable for you?

 

[Ogbunabali]

It looks fine, but where does transcending all concepts come from? I didn't see that in the scans provided.

And a minor nitpick but I don't think "As further evidence of this," would be really suited if this goes in an AP section, feels out of place.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

I agree with Ogbunabali. All I see is transcendence from Time, Space, Causality and Dimensions.

Aside from that. Everything else seems okay.

 

[DarkGrath]

Pretty much agreed with Og as well. I'd argue some of the phrasing is a bit weird (like with the "as further evidence of this" section) but that's largely subjective. Otherwise, this works.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

For the record, I assume this would go on the explanation page correct?

 

[Delta333]

twitter is unreliable,author said that he doesn't know everything about demonbane,and he even said that azathoth is omnipotent

 

[Planck69]

For the record, I assume this would go on the explanation page correct?

Yes. Though with your opinion about the wording, can it go something like this?

"Finally, the Outer and Elder Gods lie beyond all of existence, transcending space, time, causality and dimensions, existing in the primordial Chaos from which all originate. Dimensional reality has been shown to contain constructs such as Klein Bottles, which are self contained multiverses with infinite parallel space-time continua.

The highest Outer and Elder Gods, Yog-Sothoth and Elder God Demonbane, are immeasurably above regular deities, with Yog-Sothoth being the totality of existence, nonexistence and of the primal chaos, rendering all lesser deities infinitesimally small portions of itself and Elder God Demonbane containing the sleeping dream-self of the creator Azathoth as his power source."

 

[Ultima_Reality]

At the time of the statements and given that 2-A is something from the strongest weapon before the Demonbane who killed Azzy, it seems weird for Nya to be above it. Also can't this work for 2-As with immeasurable speed?

That'd just mean said weapon is Low 1-C as well. It being at this tier and having a 2-A feat aren't mutually exclusive, much less contradictory in any way.

Also can't this work for 2-As with immeasurable speed?

Depends. There is a stark difference between being untied from and/or outside of time with no other context (Immeasurable Speed at best, Acausality at worst) and trivializing both concepts entirely (Low 1-C at the very least if dispayed in contrast with a 4-dimensional reality), the latter of which seems to be the case with Demonbane.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

@Planck69

Yes, I do believe that wording is better when taking into account the context. Maybe we could use that

 

[N_Kardashev]

So how far into 1-A were these guys considered? Would they have match any of the DC's 1-A?

 

[Ionliosite]

So how far into 1-A were these guys considered? Would they have match any of the DC's 1-A?

Please no derailing.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Also can't this work for 2-As with immeasurable speed?

Depends. There is a stark difference between being untied from and/or outside of time with no other context (Immeasurable Speed at best, Acausality at worst) and trivializing both concepts entirely (Low 1-C at the very least if dispayed in contrast with a 4-dimensional reality), the latter of which seems to be the case with Demonbane.

Wait, I was actually nearly wanking this, because Demonbane/Liber Legis transcending stuff (physics/time/space) actually refers to them going at FTL speeds or them creating dimensional quake.

I could also bring others scans to show why the statements of transcending without context in Demonbane shouldn't be considered as directly Low 1-C, especially since the statements were before Demonbane's absorption of the Shining Trapezohedrons.

 

[Antvasima]

What has been accepted by the staff can probably be applied then. Thank you for helping out.

I think that the regular Demonbane (Verse) page has an explanation that needs to be updated as well, if I do not mirsremember.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think that the regular Demonbane (Verse) page has an explanation that needs to be updated as well, if I do not mirsremember.

Planck69's proposal should be good for this.

 

[Planck69]

So should I apply it right now or later?

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think it can be applied now? If it needs more, there's just to add it. Tho I think that having Ant's approval would be the best.

Btw, I'm currently checking the Strange Aeons part to see if there's something better for Low 1-C explanations (or the opposite), you can also take a look if you have time/if you want.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I could also bring others scans to show why the statements of transcending without context in Demonbane shouldn't be considered as directly Low 1-C, especially since the statements were before Demonbane's absorption of the Shining Trapezohedrons.

That would be nice.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I'm right after the "Liber Legis/Demonbane destroyed a universe/wiped dinosaurs" scene, and they're going to use the Shining Trapezohedron. I'll give a commentary on what I saw so far, and I'll give another on what's after later (because it's where the battle take a new turn in some way):

The statements of overcoming time/space/physics indeed refers to them travelling through time and space via dimensionnal quake or going at FTL speed.

Also, the contradiction between each statement and feat make pretty obvious the fact that the statement are either unreliable either flowery language. Also the amount of anti-feats is ridiculous.

For example: A blast "10000 times stronger than all nuclear weapon" wiping a universe, Demonbane moving at FTL speeds and not being able to resist Earth's gravity not even 2 minutes after, and others things like this.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Sooo, after re-watching even to the end:

-The "Space between Fantasy and Reality" isn't of any indication. It's just a random name and we don't know what it could mean. Nya just watched and made a rift to join Demonbane/Liber Legis

-Liber Legis going above dimension is at best flowery language/not littereal, at worst bullshit. Since it was still inside the Klein Bottle and stuff. Also we didn't even considered this as a feat in Liber Legis page.

-Remember the scan about "In this place I'm one in the world blablabla"? It's not any kind of higher-dimensionnal world, it's just the "original" state of the World (Multiverse) as a Chaos, it quickly shift to the "normal" World right after it.

-Needless to say, the Shining Trapezohedron thing happened, it one-shotted Nya, and Demonbane was exhausted and nearly without energy after only one attack.

-Nya also said that she maybe was herself in a "Wheel of Fortune" too. Refering to fate/time cycle about how Kurou may be the "same guy" who sealed the Outer Gods in the first place.

-The statements of time/space/causality being meaningless to Outer Gods referred more to time loop than anything else, so it doesn't change much/wouldn't give Low 1-C.

After re-watching the whole part, there's nothing that could justify a Low 1-C rating, and even a "possibly Low 1-C" seems unlikely I think.

 

[Planck69]

I mean, even with all this, Yog-Sothoth would still be Low 1-C via viewing the entirety of existence as an infinitesimal part of itself. Azathoth would be Low 1-C as well via viewing that as a dream. So the tiering would be:

Outer Gods/Elder Gods: At least 2-A

Yog-Sothoth: Low 1-C

Azathoth: Low 1-C

Oh how the mighty have fallen.