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Demon Slayer (Kimetsu no Yaiba) Discussion Thread #4

So... should Energy Projection be added to Tanjirou's Demon Form profile since he shot a mouth blast in the recent chapter?
 
@DragonGamer

Wait for the translations of the chapter to come out first, unless they already are out and I just didn't know
 
Huh, it is out...

Rough Translations

Looks like Tanjirou will get to live after all, also Giyuu say he's immune to Red Nichirin Swords and Sunlight, so he's practically Immortal in his Demon Form

Also I think Tanjirou vs Muzan's Influence Next Chapter and it looks like things will end soon, tank god it looks like no Sequel
 
Outside of Sun and Moon it probably depends more on the individual talent you have for your breathing style rather than the breath style itself.
 
ok the thing is even tho they say the breath of the sun is the strongest style i don't really thinks so now it is strong im not saying its weak but i put breath of the moon higher
 
besides sun's ability to neg demon regen I'd say its all about compatability

cause Yoriichi made each of the original extra styles to most suit people

So Water might be really good for one, and thunder is most optimal for another
 
I've read this online and now I'm sharing it with you

Giyuu: I have just invented a brand new water breathing from, I call it "dead calm"

Shinobu: Tomioka-san, please don't name breathing forms after your social life.

Giyuu: I didn't name it after my "social life"

Shinobu: Then wha-

Giyuu: I named it after your sister.
 
I've been reading the special chapters of the manga, and I've discovered that in the train arc the reason Rengoku (and the others) woke up was because Nezuko burned the tickets. Do you think they'll include this scene in the movie?
 
KnY has officially broke One Piece's record for most volumes sold in one year, and we are still in April.

They'll obviously include the ticket scene; no reason to change the plotpoint.

Leaked chapter spoilers
Spoilers are out, and Rushed Ending route is confirmed, and boy it is even more rushed and disappointing than I expected. Whole 2-chapter Demonjiro thing is just to give Tanjiro his eye and arm back.
The medicine that took Nezuko hours to work, worked on Tanjiro within seconds. Then the power of friendship manifested, and the ghost of Tanjiro's dead friends and family basically erased a thousand years of Muzan's memories out of Tanjiro's mind (Alt+F4). Muzan is also a whining moustache twirling villain, so his development is undone.

To be fair the fight between Wani and the editors was legit intense compared to the Muzan and Demonjiro fight. My hypothesis for how this went down:

  • 1- Gotouge wanted a more grim Muzan fight and ending, where Tanjiro gets mutilated and Nezuko almost gets eaten by Muzan, but Tanjiro managed to slay Muzan with the 13th form before dying.
  • 2- Shueisha wanted a continuation to bank on the franchise, either with Muzan escaping or demon Tanjiro as the new villain (well-intentioned anti-villain conqueror Tanjiro, in the vein of Meruem, is interesting tbh).
  • 3- A compromise was reached to just make an unironic cliche' happily every after ending to allow merch and fluffy spinoffs to sell better. Gotouge then made references to different ideas in a superfluous manner without developing them.
The writing for the Countdown arc is pretty bad and poorly planned compared to the previous ones. Nezuko's father either expected her to fight Muzan, or he is omniscient as human Nezuko's contribution to save Tanjiro is minimal and would be completly useless against Muzan. There is no in-lore explanation for why Muzan didn't use BDA earlier; I tried to explain it as him not being serious so he was keeping them as aces in the hole for whenever he gets serious, but that is proven wrong.

Hopefully there is minimum or no cringe rushed romance development next chapter (There is still some this chapter with Zenitsu immediately begging Nezuko to marry him), and the ending is as straight-forward as possible, and they better not tease any spinoffs as this could've been done with a better ending. At least the journey was great.
 
Meanwhile, that ending is literally what I wanted. So I have no complaints...I've honestly already gave my thoughts on everything and how I believe Muzan;s development and even this ending for his character fit what he was supposed to be. I don't think I need to explain it again....
 
Looking on how this chapter is, I'm very satisfied, I like happy endings and seeing how this will go down, I don't give a crap if it's like this, after all the pain, death, and suffering, Tanjiro deserves a happy ending and power of friendship? please, I love Fairy Tail, that's nothing new to me, I like the final fight and there were legit consequences, lots of people died, just cause the main character survived doesn't mean there were no consequences, I'm interested to see the translations of this chapter as Muzan failing to manipulate Tanjirou is an appropriate end, yeah, Demon Tanjirou was a bit rushed, but I don't think they could have done a long fight anyways, the fight with Muzan was supposed to be the one that brought everyone to their absolute limit, so an emotional mind battle of trying to bring Tanjirou back to the light is far more fitting for the end

Demon Slayer was honestly a great read as I got to binge most of it, I like simple straight forward plots and this was one of those stories as the plot was very clear from the start, I'm looking forward to how the story concludes and can't wait for the anime to return and adapt the rest of the manga
 
I feel as though Demon Tanjiro wasn't meant to last that long and was only supposed to be Muzan's last ditch effort to win in death. But as fitting for his character, he failed and him whining fits his character. Dude is a moustache twirling villian, but once again Muzan's character came from his actions and influence and not from him being super in depth. Muzan was simply a demon who got too powerful and bit off more than he could chew. He was an ordinary man who got demon powers and went on a power fantasy. Muzan this entire series has shown himself to be no more than a child throwing a tantrum. The Pride, Arrogance, Cruelty, Wrath, etc were all apart of his character that led to his downfall and contribute to his last moments. So I vehemently disagree with his character being undone as him whining after his defeat is actually fully expected from him.

I also feel like your hypothesis assumes that the ending you moreso wanted was what was originally planned when it could also be that this is the ending she wanted all along. I disagree with the writing for the arc being bad as I found it intense, engaging and overall full of tension. That's all I ask for. There were stakes, we legitimately lost lives and nearly lost Tanjiro. We lost 8 important characters in this arc so us saving Tanjiro is doesn't get rid of the stakes here as the series showed that it was willing to kill people off and the only reason Tanjiro survived his injuries was because of Muzan turning into him a demon and all the people he befriended and his family saving him from being mentally taken over along with the medicine.

If anything, what Tanjiro got saved by has been built up the entire series.

1) The vaccine that he gathered Twelve Demon Moon blood for.

2) The Family who even in death have been actively supporting him throughout the entire series.

3) All the people he befriended and was actively kind to.

4) His sister who he spent the entire series trying to cure.

If anything I see this as all of Tanjiro's actions coming back to save him while all of Muzan's actions have only come back to bite him. This is a blatant good karma, bad karma scenario with Tanjiro and Muzan being complete opposites in this regard. And I find this contrast to be quite masterful. To be quite blunt, I adore this ending.
 
The problem isn't it not lasting long, it is that the final arc is messy writing-wise, and falls short compared to the writing quality of the previous arcs (what made us love the series in the first place). Needless to say, the Muzan fight being the climax of the series would be better than the Kokushibo fight being the climax of the series.

Muzan received character development prior to his death, where he embraced Kagaya's philosophy. I never said that Muzan's character as it was for most of the series was undone, I am saying the character development he recently got, however brief, was undone.

My hypothesis is based on the observation of underdeveloped plotpoints and how Gotouge previously described their world (characters need to get hurt and die because this is a world where they must fight for their lives). It doesn't take into account my preferred ending. It also assumes that Gotouge's writing standards and abilities have not suddenly fallen off in the final arc, as there is no sign of writing deterioration in the previous arcs; but for all we know it did and most of the writing problem is on them.

Also, I am counting the Dimensional Infinity Fortress arc as something different from the Countdown arc after they got to the surface.

For instance, Tanjiros says: "So I can't just connect my techniques alone. I have to aim for the hearts and brains precisely."

Attention has been brought to the need to aim for Muzan's hearts and branis multiple times by different characters, but nobody actually aimed for the hearts and brains, and no one managed to land successive hits on Muzan's head or torso. Spending time establishing this plot point that amounted to nothing is an example of sloppy writing. Which is the basis for why Muzan dying with the 13th form is probably the original plan.

The Muzan fight choreography is the most criticized in the series (Muzan whipping tentacles for months is meme-worthy); whether there is tension doesn't negate the existence of a bad and boring choreography throughout, and tension doesn't need bad choreography; just look at the Red Light District arc. But when we look at it, the tension is undeserved since it is based on plot-induced stupidity, where a desperate Muzan forgot about his ability to use Blood Demon Art. Otherwise, the characters would have to plan and strategize around that. You might say that the author wrote themselves into a corner which is why BDA was shelved... which is bad writing and an example of an anticlimax.

You haven't addressed the point presented. I don't find a problem in the existence of a cure. However the cure taking Nezuko hours to work, while working instantly on Tanjiro is an asspull.

The problem isn't that Tanjiro got outside motivation, it is that a thousand years of Muzan's memories are deleted from Tanjiro's mind as if they never existed; since this is not achievable with Talk no Jutsu this is a power of friendship asspull.

I am not denying that something badly written can give you good emotions/vibes as long as you don't think about it.
 
"The problem isn't it not lasting long, it is that the final arc is messy writing-wise, and falls short compared to the writing quality of the previous arcs (what made us love the series in the first place). Needless to say, the Muzan fight being the climax of the series would be better than the Kokushibo fight being the climax of the series."

I disagree with this as I find the writing to be on point with the earlier arcs, the writing seemed to fit what we've gotten previously. And the ending with everything Tanjiro has done saving him in the end really felt deserved.

"Muzan received character development prior to his death, where he embraced Kagaya's philosophy. I never said that Muzan's character as it was for most of the series was undone, I am saying the character development he recently got, however brief, was undone."

How does it get undone. Explain this?

"My hypothesis is based on the observation of underdeveloped plotpoints and how Gotouge previously described their world (characters need to get hurt and die because this is a world where they must fight for their lives). It doesn't take into account my preferred ending. It also assumes that Gotouge's writing standards and abilities have not suddenly fallen off in the final arc, as there is no sign of writing deterioration in the previous arcs; but for all we know it did and most of the writing problem is on them."

However, her statement is not contradicted, anyone who got seriously hurt and died stayed dead. The only reason Tanjiro lived is due to Muzan, something that no one accounted for, otherwise Tanjiro would be dead like the others who died. She has been consistent with characters dying and the only person who has come back from death is Tanjiro who had a logical reason to why he was brought back which was due to Muzan's actions. Her statement does not that Tanjiro was going to die, her statement just supports that characters can and will die, in which they did. And I do not see this fight deviating from that seeing as we in fact got deaths from this fight. Which is my main problem with your hypothesis. I am not arguing whether there was some rushing (especially with this virus going around), however to say that this was the specific planned is something I find disingenuous. I believe that this was the ending planned, but many things she wanted to put in beforehand that would lead to this had to be cut. Of course we will never truly know.

"Attention has been brought to the need to aim for Muzan's hearts and branis multiple times by different characters, but nobody actually aimed for the hearts and brains, and no one managed to land successive hits on Muzan's head or torso. Spending time establishing this plot point that amounted to nothing is an example of sloppy writing. Which is the basis for why Muzan dying with the 13th form is probably the original plan."

So basically, there are faults here. No one is saying that the writing is perfect, however to say that the writing is overall bad is something I personally disagree with.

"The Muzan fight choreography is the most criticized in the series (Muzan whipping tentacles for months is meme-worthy); whether there is tension doesn't negate the existence of a bad and boring choreography throughout, and tension doesn't need bad choreography; just look at the Red Light District arc."

It being the most criticized doesn't make the choreography objectively bad as I actuallly found it quite good and intense. This also assumes that all I cared for was the tension when I directly noted that I enjoyed the various elements of the fight, the choreography was one of them. Could it have been better? Yes, but it still had everything I liked within a fight.

"But when we look at it, the tension is undeserved since it is based on plot-induced stupidity, where a desperate Muzan forgot about his ability to use Blood Demon Art. Otherwise, the characters would have to plan and strategize around that. You might say that the author wrote themselves into a corner which is why BDA was shelved... which is bad writing and an example of an anticlimax."

Disagree as the tension was very much deserved due to Muzan's sheer might and the fact that the characters were extremely weak and desperate putting all they had to stop this rampaging beast. He didn't use his BDA, but that doesn't mean the tension was undeserved as the threat of a powerful foe who was overpowering everyone and having to somehow hold him till the sun came up was still well deserved tension. So I vehemently disagree here.

"You haven't addressed the point presented. I don't find a problem in the existence of a cure. However the cure taking Nezuko hours to work, while working instantly on Tanjiro is an asspull."

I would chalk that up to the fact that Tanjiro was not a demon for as long as Nezuko was tbh. Even then, a simple flaw.

"The problem isn't that Tanjiro got outside motivation, it is that a thousand years of Muzan's memories are deleted from Tanjiro's mind as if they never existed; since this is not achievable with Talk no Jutsu this is a power of friendship asspull."

Or it could be that his allies and family helping him out here drove the memories out which was a major source of the corruption. This was a mental battle here in which the outside help overpowered and erased Muzan's memories. Simply being "Power of Friendship" =/= make it bad or an auto asspull as like I said, it felt like a perfect ending as in this case all the good Tanjiro did and all the support he got overpowered Muzan's memories.

"I am not denying that something badly written can give you good emotions/vibes as long as you don't think about it"

I don't see this as badly written. Stop forcing your views down everyone's throats. Stop assuming we didn't "think about it" as we certainly have and we do not find it as terrible as you do, simple as that. Was it perfect? No. However, I disagree that the writing in this arc has overall been terrible. And even when thinking about it, I find this ending to be fine and well deserved. End of story.

If the story has kept me engaged, the characters are interesting and engaging and has kept me on my seat and looking forward to the next chapter as well as leaving me with a good taste in my mouth, I find that to be a well written story. It can be flawed at points, certainly, however this story including this arc was well written even if circumstances possibly out of Gou or her editors control had to make it rushed. It's all I ask for and I don't need someone forcing their views down my throat telling me that "it's all bad writing" or "this is terrible or that is terrible". You don't like it? You have that right. But don't go telling me it was all bad writing or choreography was shit.

Either way, I am dropping this discussion as I am not in the best state health-wise to be getting worked up.
 
To the choreography point, I don't know if it's me, but I've always found the choreography hard to follow, like the breath styles look gorgeous, but sometimes it's hard to tell even what they do, so the choreography has never been an issue with me in any of the fights as I just try to enjoy the artwork
 
I also feel that the fight looks a lot better when read all at once and less when read weekly. I did the latter so it felt and flowed well to me.
 
I don't get why the idea of Muzan not being truely brace or "A man" by his definition is new

Seriously, this is the same guy who ran away from Yoriichi when he was in a battle he was going to lose in.
 
"Attention has been brought to the need to aim for Muzan's hearts and brains multiple times by different characters, but nobody actually aimed for the hearts and brains, and no one managed to land successive hits on Muzan's head or torso. Spending time establishing this plot point that amounted to nothing is an example of sloppy writing. Which is the basis for why Muzan dying with the 13th form is probably the original plan."

I personally found that attention on Muzan's hearts and brains as the author explaining how Yoriichi could almost kill Muzan despite the latter being immune to almost anything outside of the sun.
 
My biggest problem here is the "as long as you don't think about it" claim.

So basically, in your eyes, anyone that got emotional over this only did so because they didn't think about it? That's a false generalization for the sake of fitting your narrative.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
I disagree with this as I find the writing to be on point with the earlier arcs, the writing seemed to fit what we've gotten previously. And the ending with everything Tanjiro has done saving him in the end really felt deserved.
Click to expand...
Where in the previous arc is a desperate villain beatable because he forgot he can use his ability to win all along for over an hour. The previous arcs has been pretty free of plot-induced stupidiy and things flowed logically.

I am not saying that it is bad compared to the average final arc in mangas, but it doesn't live up to the standard set up by previous KnY arcs.

Dragonmasterxyz said:
How does it get undone. Explain this?
Click to expand...
Muzan gained depth just before his death by acknowledging Kagaya was right, and by embracing human emotions which he previously perceived as weakness. But nope; downgraded back to be forever one dimensional.

Dragonmasterxyz said:
However, her statement is not contradicted[...]
Click to expand...
Gotouge's statement is that there are consequences; not that people die if they are killed (which wouldn't be contradicted by plot armor; for example having Genya's healing greatly enhanced from eating parts of UM1, or having Muichiro sliced through his leg instead of torso). This goes against Tanjiro's heavy plot armor when the author is supposedly not afraid to kill characters. Obviously, I am making a guess rather than a concrete claim, which is why it is called a hypothesis, also this is supporting evidence to the previous arcs being better planned where it doesn't look like the author wrote themselves into corners.

Dragonmasterxyz said:
Or it could be that his allies and family helping him out here drove the memories out which was a major source of the corruption. This was a mental battle here in which the outside help overpowered and erased Muzan's memories. Simply being "Power of Friendship" =/= make it bad or an auto asspull as like I said, it felt like a perfect ending as in this case all the good Tanjiro did and all the support he got overpowered Muzan's memories.
Click to expand...
The ghosts displayed the ability to communicate, and perhaps manifest in a dream world (Sabito and Makamo, Zenitsu's grandfather), but this is outright high-tier mind/memory manipulation out of nowhere. A clear example of deus ex machina. Curing Tanjiro could've been done in a more convincing manner by a more prolonged mental battle, but this is either extremely rushed (which implies poor planning for the arc early on), or extremely lazy.

This is made worse by Nezuko's father and Ubuyashiki wholeheartedly believing that Nezuko is needed to save Tanjiro; so they either have high-tier precognition to know about demon Tanjiro, or they believed the medicine won't work for a few hours and that demon Nezuko is fast enough to reach the city before dawn, and that she is powerful enough to give Muzan serious trouble (as opposed to the former Hashira) without getting absorbed. If it is the former then why didn't the ghosts use their OP abilities more often to save more people and end Muzan and his subordinates earlier, if it is the former then what made them put so much unwarranted confidence in Nezuko's abilities despite the great risk of her being near Muzan?

TriforcePower1 said:
I personally found that attention on Muzan's hearts and brains as the author explaining how Yoriichi could almost kill Muzan despite the latter being immune to almost anything outside of the sun.
Click to expand...
It is explained by the properties of Yoriichi's bright red blade which negates Muzan's Regenerationn. Repetedly calling them weakpoints and emphasizing that the characters have the intention to aim for them did not contribute to the plot.

DragonGamerZ913 said:
So basically, in your eyes, anyone that got emotional over this only did so because they didn't think about it? That's a false generalization for the sake of fitting your narrative.
Click to expand...
Nope, people feel emotions and that is fine; we are humans not robots. But Fairy Tail got brought up, which is the poster manga for cool emotional scenes that often don't make sense, and the emotional impact was emphasized even though my points were about the coherency of the writing. A good story arc is satisfactory in both first impressions and after introspection, I believe the final arc falls short in the later.
 
@Shadow The biggest problem is this, by your own words

"I am not denying that something badly written can give you good emotions/vibes as long as you don't think about it."

You basically just said that anybody that got emotional vibes from this did not think about it, I imagine that wasn't what you meant, you just worded it rather poorly, no offense.
 
That was some...well, lets say, Muzan went down like a gaint loser.

Cant believe he was the suposed super ancient ultra monster that had caused so much suffering. Well, not as bad the the demon king from NNT....i think, im not sure anymore, this chapter made him into quite a dissappointment tbh. Im not sure who is a bigger failure, the always jobbing DK or kibutsuji "im begging the MC" muzan.
 
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
Muzan was always supposed to be a coward who would die pathetically...
Click to expand...
He was supposed to be a coward, but dying pathetically is is a different thing, you can make him fall from grace once he actually showed that he had it. All we saw was him being a coward throughout the series, and in the single battle he has, he just ripped off Parasytes from kiseijuu.

UM1 had the far better fight because he got stronger, gained new forms, and than still died in a ungraceful, some may say pathetic, manner, thatwas missing imo for Muzan.
 
I don't know man, him whining and begging Tanjirou to follow his will and then ultimately crying asking him not to leave him feels satisfying to me, shows Muzan's true face as a desperate creature trying to survive
 
"Where in the previous arc is a desperate villain beatable because he forgot he can use his ability to win all along for over an hour. The previous arcs has been pretty free of plot-induced stupidiy and things flowed logically."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Muzan used his BDA against Tanjiro (him injecting blood) correct? Also, I don't see this as Plot Induced Stupidity considering his state of mind. Throughout the entire fight Muzan considered his sheer power would be enough to win. And to be quite blunt, he was correct. And when he did inject his blood into Tanjiro, Tangiro continued to fight. Not to mention that to them, time was literally going faster for them seeing as even Muzan was shocked by how much time had passed. Muzan was overconfident and desparate. That was his downfall and an in character downfall for him. So I do not see this as PIS whatsover to be quite blunt.

"Muzan gained depth just before his death by acknowledging Kagaya was right, and by embracing human emotions which he previously perceived as weakness. But nope; downgraded back to be forever one dimensional."

How is him begging Tanjiro a downgrade? In fact, it shows that he's embracing human emotions here in his desperation. He's scared of failure and we know that previously, Muzan would likely not have ever begged for anything. He's flat out showing his human weakness. This is in line with his character and his development.

"This goes against Tanjiro's heavy plot armor when the author is supposedly not afraid to kill characters."

Her being unafraid to kill characters =/= every character has to die. She has never been afraid to kill someone off. She chose to spare Tanjiro for her own reasons and gave a legitimate reason as to why. It isn't like he too all this damage and lived through miraculous means. No, to get his return, he literally needed the help of everyone.

"Obviously, I am making a guess rather than a concrete claim, which is why it is called a hypothesis, also this is supporting evidence to the previous arcs being better planned where it doesn't look like the author wrote themselves into corners."

I don't see how previous arcs support the idea that Tanjiro surviving is a compromise whatsoever. That's just the ending you wanted.

"The ghosts displayed the ability to communicate, and perhaps manifest in a dream world (Sabito and Makamo, Zenitsu's grandfather), but this is outright high-tier mind/memory manipulation out of nowhere. A clear example of deus ex machina. Curing Tanjiro could've been done in a more convincing manner by a more prolonged mental battle, but this is either extremely rushed (which implies poor planning for the arc early on), or extremely lazy."

Is it out of nowhere? We have never seen the full capabilities of the spirits before. And this seems more like they drove Muzan completely out of Tanjiro which included memories through the mental battle. I don't see how it isn't convincing? This is a common thing in fiction in general. Getting rid of those memories isn't some spectacular feat as you are making it out to be, especially in terms of a mental battle or battle of wills.

"This is made worse by Nezuko's father and Ubuyashiki wholeheartedly believing that Nezuko is needed to save Tanjiro; so they either have high-tier precognition to know about demon Tanjiro,"

I would argue that it's less precognition and more them knowing that Muzan could in fact very well choose to turn Tanjiro into a demon in the final moments. I see it as more of a safety measure and telling Nezuko that she has to be the one to save Tanjiro would prompt her to try and get to Tanjiro much faster.

"A good story arc is satisfactory in both first impressions and after introspection, I believe the final arc falls short in the later."

Vehemently disagree as I find the writing and everything else to be just as good as the rest of the story as I've explained above and i legitimately consider this one of the best arcs in the entire series. My issue with you is that you constantly shove this down our throats and say bullshit like ""I am not denying that something badly written can give you good emotions/vibes as long as you don't think about it." which is directly saying that if you felt strongly about this arc, then surely you didn't think about it or the story as a whole.

"UM1 had the far better fight because he got stronger, gained new forms, and than still died in a ungraceful, some may say pathetic, manner, thatwas missing imo for Muzan. "

Disagree. Muzan did get stronger here. He gained a new form, killed a few important characters, countless demon slayers and even tried to take over the main character but still died in an ungraceful and pathetic way. Muzan was never supposed to be this overly calculating and in control demon lord. Muzan has always been nothing more than a whining child. The character of Muzan was always that he was a pathetic and ungraceful person whose biggest fear was death. Muzan has been nothing more than a big baby who gets pissed when he doesn't get what he wants. That's always been who Muzan Kibitsuji was. When we do the forum move (as all of this will cease to exist anyway) I plan to do a deep dive into Muzan as a character which will explain why everything that happened to Muzan in this arc perfectly fits within his character, and how it was the death he deserved.
 
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