Death Battle Season Ten Discussion Thread (1) (All-time Death Battle Spoilers Alert)

[ZeNoviceArtist]

Eh it was kinda ya either buy Kratos lore or ya don't which makes it a stomp but depends on who do u believe does it
And on note

Hard.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Eh it was kinda ya either buy Kratos lore or ya don't which makes it a stomp but depends on who do u believe does it

I've never understood this argument of gameplay vs lore when it comes to God of War. It's like....isn't the whole point of lore in any media that it helps clarify and explain things about the franchise that the developers may not have had the time to put in? To me, gameplay and lore go hand in hand with each other, and I'm genuinely bewildered by this whole "Gameplay" and "Lore" Kratos thing people going on.

Now you could say that the gameplay doesn't reflect the cosmic power which Kratos has throughout the franchise and it's why people are skeptical about it, but the thing is that God of War has a couple of instances where we see that power at display. Such examples include how Persephone in Chains of Olympus vaporized The World Pillar when she died, that same pillar being the one which holds up the entire Greek cosmology and was going to cause all of creation to cease to exist, or visually the Primordials creating everything from their war at the beginning of Ascension, or even in recent games like Thor knocking back the World Serpent in time during the climax of GOW Ragnarok.

So to me, it seems ridculous there's this whole gameplay vs lore thing for Kratos when it's a part of the game itself and we see it happen on screen

 

[Jasonsith]

Eh it was kinda ya either buy Kratos lore or ya don't which makes it a stomp but depends on who do u believe does it
And on note

KryptonEast seems a big sponsor for NotStrykon




That aside, seems Kratos vs Asura is so big it is only behind Cole MacGrath vs Alex Mercer and Wile E Coyote vs Tom Cat.

 

[Tipper17]

I've never understood this argument of gameplay vs lore when it comes to God of War. It's like....isn't the whole point of lore in any media that it helps clarify and explain things about the franchise that the developers may not have had the time to put in? To me, gameplay and lore go hand in hand with each other, and I'm genuinely bewildered by this whole "Gameplay" and "Lore" Kratos thing people going on.

Now you could say that the gameplay doesn't reflect the cosmic power which Kratos has throughout the franchise and it's why people are skeptical about it, but the thing is that God of War has a couple of instances where we see that power at display. Such examples include how Persephone in Chains of Olympus vaporized The World Pillar when she died, that same pillar being the one which holds up the entire Greek cosmology and was going to cause all of creation to cease to exist, or visually the Primordials creating everything from their war at the beginning of Ascension, or even in recent games like Thor knocking back the World Serpent in time during the climax of GOW Ragnarok.

So to me, it seems ridculous there's this whole gameplay vs lore thing for Kratos when it's a part of the game itself and we see it happen on screen

Ah but the only good example u mentioned is the Ascension opening the rest wouldn't sell folks on cosmic gow without lore

Gow lore can be inconsistent via wog and such which doesn't help trying to convince peeps at times

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Ah but the only good example u mentioned is the Ascension opening the rest wouldn't sell folks on cosmic gow without lore

Gow lore can be inconsistent via wog and such which doesn't help trying to convince peeps at times

I mean I suppose the Thor thing would be unconvincing, you could argue that it's time travel, but I don't see the issue with the World Pillar feat. Because when Persephone said it would erase all of creation, she clarifies that the Pillar's destruction would've reverted all of existence back to the primordial Chaos which had preceded creation...and she vaporized the Pillar from her dying breath, so it seems weird that people wouldn't buy that when it's in the game itself.

Not to mention that in the Norse side of things you do have more direct feats of cosmic power like Odin slaying Ymir before time itself began and fashioning the 9 Realms out of flesh, Kratos being able to seal away Realm Tears with brute strength which can threaten the existence of individual realms, and all that jazz. Maybe I'm just not seeing it like they do, but I really can't see the gameplay and lore being separate concepts as opposed to being intertwined

 

[TartaChocholate]

I've never understood this argument of gameplay vs lore when it comes to God of War. It's like....isn't the whole point of lore in any media that it helps clarify and explain things about the franchise that the developers may not have had the time to put in? To me, gameplay and lore go hand in hand with each other, and I'm genuinely bewildered by this whole "Gameplay" and "Lore" Kratos thing people going on.

Now you could say that the gameplay doesn't reflect the cosmic power which Kratos has throughout the franchise and it's why people are skeptical about it, but the thing is that God of War has a couple of instances where we see that power at display. Such examples include how Persephone in Chains of Olympus vaporized The World Pillar when she died, that same pillar being the one which holds up the entire Greek cosmology and was going to cause all of creation to cease to exist, or visually the Primordials creating everything from their war at the beginning of Ascension, or even in recent games like Thor knocking back the World Serpent in time during the climax of GOW Ragnarok.

So to me, it seems ridculous there's this whole gameplay vs lore thing for Kratos when it's a part of the game itself and we see it happen on screen

Reminds me of the people who also dismiss gameplay as "gameplay mechanics" and only consider stuff that happens in cutscenes.

 

[Tipper17]

Not to mention that in the Norse side of things you do have more direct feats of cosmic power like Odin slaying Ymir before time itself began and fashioning the 9 Realms out of flesh,

We never saw how long it took etc
My point is feat wise there's a reason folks be arguing day n nite over it

 

[TMaakkonen]

Was there a specific event that allows Olympians to scale to Primordials?

Also since DB allows Lore Chosen Undead and ******* Scooby-Doo to be Uni, there is nothing wrong with Uni Kratos.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Was there a specific event that allows Olympians to scale to Primordials?

Also since DB allows Lore Chosen Undead and ******* Scooby-Doo to be Uni, there is nothing wrong with Uni Kratos.

It opens the door for many franchises that uses lore to indicate a character power, even if visually they may not have shown it

 

[TMaakkonen]

It opens the door for many franchises that uses lore to indicate a character power, even if visually they may not have shown it

We already have Universal Chosen Undead, there is NO EXCUSE for Kratos... unless they like believe Uni CU is believable but Uni Kratos isnt?

I did wonder about the Primordials thing, since they literally punched and created at bare minimum large number of stars, thats usable enough feat. Im even curious how strong that feat is if you low ball it to only count the energy needed for all the stars created.

 

[LordGinSama]

We already have Universal Chosen Undead, there is NO EXCUSE for Kratos... unless they like believe Uni CU is believable but Uni Kratos isnt?

Pretty sure they explicitly said that Uni Chosen Undead was an extreme high end. With Kratos his scaling can be a bit subjective when it comes to the individual scaling him so it ultimately depends on the research team that's assigned to Kratos.

 

[TMaakkonen]

Pretty sure they explicitly said that Uni Chosen Undead was an extreme high end. With Kratos his scaling can be a bit subjective when it comes to the individual scaling him so it ultimately depends on the research team that's assigned to Kratos.

It was maximum potential, but not necessarily high balled one?

Wiz: There's also the lore. Both characters are essentially mythological demigods in the same kind of vein as Hercules or Sun Wukong. Gameplay alone won't give you the best idea of their full power as characters.

Boomstick: So let's get an idea of their max potential from... the lore!

Wiz: The Chosen Undead sustaining the First Flame with their soul was insanely impressive, considering the First Flame is responsible for the core concepts of the universe, like energy and time; it's not a stretch to say it affects not just the planet they live on, but the whole universe.

This didnt quite imply that they went overboard, rather that it was standard peak, which is what DB tries to use in general. They didnt mention that they overestimate CU.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Was there a specific event that allows Olympians to scale to Primordials?

Yeah canonically Cronos defeated and overthrew Uranus and then the Olympians defeated and overthrew Cronos and the rest of the titans, Thanatos is also a primordial and he got destroyed by a version of Kratos that had only been granted partial godhood by Athena.

I mean I suppose the Thor thing would be unconvincing, you could argue that it's time travel, but I don't see the issue with the World Pillar feat. Because when Persephone said it would erase all of creation, she clarifies that the Pillar's destruction would've reverted all of existence back to the primordial Chaos which had preceded creation...and she vaporized the Pillar from her dying breath, so it seems weird that people wouldn't buy that when it's in the game itself.

Not to mention that in the Norse side of things you do have more direct feats of cosmic power like Odin slaying Ymir before time itself began and fashioning the 9 Realms out of flesh, Kratos being able to seal away Realm Tears with brute strength which can threaten the existence of individual realms, and all that jazz. Maybe I'm just not seeing it like they do, but I really can't see the gameplay and lore being separate concepts as opposed to being intertwined

Well the thing is I think most people would be fine with the cosmic stuff if it wasn't for the norse games, they don't do a particularly good job convincing people that all the different myths are universal in scope instead of being limited to their country of origin. People don't think the world pillar holding up all of creation is that impressive because they think it refers to greece and nothing else, Odin creating the 9 realms (Well actually 7) isn't overly impressive to people since they think midgard is only scandinavia and since the realms are meant to be similar in scope they tend to think the realms aren't full sized universes either.

Doesn't help the greek games had the sun being a temple pulled by Helios instead of being an actual full sized sun, which in turn led people to believe that if the sun isn't truly that big in the games then the stars from Uranus when he got punched also aren't as big as real stars. Like, I'm a firm beleiver of universal Kratos but I think it's easy to see why there's a decent chunk of people that don't have him higher than continental.

 

[TMaakkonen]

Some level of cosmic Kratos is fine, esp. since it was Ouranos whose fight created stars and Cronos beat him while Kratos beat Cronos. Infinite speeds are likely too much tho.

As a lowball, was Ouranos' clash ever calced counting only all the stars he created in one clash? Is that SS or maybe even Galaxy level feat?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Some level of cosmic Kratos is fine, esp. since it was Ouranos whose fight created stars and Cronos beat him while Kratos beat Cronos. Infinite speeds are likely too much tho.

As a lowball, was Ouranos' clash ever calced counting only all the stars he created in one clash? Is that SS or maybe even Galaxy level feat?

I don't think the Infinite speed feat is that much of a stretch considering it's a pretty simple feat.

It's just Helios light being able to reach Infinite size structures.

Even if said structures aren't Infinite, it's still easy Massively FTL+, like Quadrillions to Quintillions

 

[TMaakkonen]

I don't think the Infinite speed feat is that much of a stretch considering it's a pretty simple feat.

It's just Helios light being able to reach Infinite size structures.

Even if said structures aren't Infinite, it's still easy Massively FTL+, like Quadrillions to Quintillions

Its a losing battle of mine to be strict on absurdly high powers and infinite+ speeds are that.

Technically I guess if I were more strict, I dont think there has been blatant feats, scaling or statements of Kratos dodging Helios' light but Im not too versed on all of GoW.

Its realistically useless for DB tho since I feel like they are not that strict anymore and he would get all the shit needed to beat Asura. Kratos is very likely winning against Asura.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Technically I guess if I were more strict, I dont think there has been blatant feats, scaling or statements of Kratos dodging Helios' light but Im not too versed on all of GoW.

Kratos himself doesn't but he has kept with Hercules and a tired Hermes, who both can actually react and do stuff to avoid the light (Hercules blocks it, Hermes just runs faster than it).

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Reminds me of the people who also dismiss gameplay as "gameplay mechanics" and only consider stuff that happens in cutscenes.

This is kind of random, but I remember I was debating someone who asked why Cloud would beat Link (this was Link vs Cloud 2). I told them the usual feats like Sephiroth's Supernova, Knights of the Round, Bahamut Fury, etcetera, and they said something along the lines of, "Oh, of course it would be the totally ridiculous cutscenes. Link would still win if it was gameplay only." I was obviously very confused since as you know, all of the feats I listed come from gameplay, but it turns out that they didn't think turn-based combat counted as gameplay, and thus every turn-based RPG is not a video game. I'm serious. They felt they were more along the lines of point-and-click adventure games (totally ignoring, as I pointed out, that those are video games too). It was probably the most baffling discussion I've had on the internet (and yes, it was on the Death Battle subreddit).

 

[BlackDarkness679]

We already have Universal Chosen Undead, there is NO EXCUSE for Kratos... unless they like believe Uni CU is believable but Uni Kratos isnt?

I did wonder about the Primordials thing, since they literally punched and created at bare minimum large number of stars, thats usable enough feat. Im even curious how strong that feat is if you low ball it to only count the energy needed for all the stars created.

Dante too, Bayonetta as well and any game or non game verse who uses lore to tell you "oh, this dude can nuke stars or a multiverse"

 

[Deidalius]

It all came down to this, and the winner is....


Guts! Our dear Black Swords Man. Look at that innocent smile, so pure. He really is happy about his win, after all its probably one of the few times he's won in life.

10. Raven
9. Obito Uchiha
8. The Doctor
7. Chosen Undead
6. Alex Mercer
5. Son Goku
4. Makima
3. Satoru Gojo
2. Dimitri Alexandre Blaiddyd
1. Guts

Dimitri doesn't mind the loss, he did win their mid battle

As expected, every male ever wants to wear edgy cool armor. It's in our nature. Everyone likes edgy tragic warriors.

 

[Tipper17]

Well the thing is I think most people would be fine with the cosmic stuff if it wasn't for the norse games, they don't do a particularly good job convincing people that all the different myths are universal in scope instead of being limited to their country of origin. People don't think the world pillar holding up all of creation is that impressive because they think it refers to greece and nothing else, Odin creating the 9 realms (Well actually 7) isn't overly impressive to people since they think midgard is only scandinavia and since the realms are meant to be similar in scope they tend to think the realms aren't full sized universes either.

Pretty much
Gow suffers from not being outright blatant in terms of its scale to make folks be more open to its scailing
Norse wise

 

[Deidalius]

If Kratos vs Asura happens I just want Asura to throw planets and stars at Kratos, and have Kratos tank and no sell it. Maybe then they will realize how ridiculous Multiversal Kratonks is.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Well the thing is I think most people would be fine with the cosmic stuff if it wasn't for the norse games, they don't do a particularly good job convincing people that all the different myths are universal in scope instead of being limited to their country of origin. People don't think the world pillar holding up all of creation is that impressive because they think it refers to greece and nothing else, Odin creating the 9 realms (Well actually 7) isn't overly impressive to people since they think midgard is only scandinavia and since the realms are meant to be similar in scope they tend to think the realms aren't full sized universes either.

Doesn't help the greek games had the sun being a temple pulled by Helios instead of being an actual full sized sun, which in turn led people to believe that if the sun isn't truly that big in the games then the stars from Uranus when he got punched also aren't as big as real stars. Like, I'm a firm beleiver of universal Kratos but I think it's easy to see why there's a decent chunk of people that don't have him higher than continental.

^All of this here? I think this exemplifies why I believe the lore of GOW is a necessity when it comes to power scaling the series, because when the games make an implication about something that happens in universe then the lore comes in and finishes the job for them.

Like I think it's thanks to lore presented in game, guidebooks, and even Word of God from a number of sources that we know Greece and Scandinavia in GOW aren't merely just geographical locations found on Earth, but essentially macrocosms ala Dragon Ball that are separated from one another. That's what enables Greece and Scandinavia to have their creation myths, the Primordials creating the Greek World during their war and Odin slaying Ymir in the void before time itself began and drowning all of creation with his blood, without causing any contradictions or issues because they're realms that are far beyond country sized.

 

[Dust_Collector]

This is kind of random, but I remember I was debating someone who asked why Cloud would beat Link (this was Link vs Cloud 2). I told them the usual feats like Sephiroth's Supernova, Knights of the Round, Bahamut Fury, etcetera, and they said something along the lines of, "Oh, of course it would be the totally ridiculous cutscenes. Link would still win if it was gameplay only." I was obviously very confused since as you know, all of the feats I listed come from gameplay, but it turns out that they didn't think turn-based combat counted as gameplay, and thus every turn-based RPG is not a video game. I'm serious. They felt they were more along the lines of point-and-click adventure games (totally ignoring, as I pointed out, that those are video games too). It was probably the most baffling discussion I've had on the internet (and yes, it was on the Death Battle subreddit).

Comparing turn based combat in an RPG to a point and click adventure and saying neither are actually video games is one hell of a take, must've taken that dude an incredible amount of brain power to think of something like that.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

People really dont pay attention to lore in a media as much, they just go by visuals and call it a day, this is like the peeps who claim DB makes popular characters win when not each time it was the case, S10 included

 

[Issen_Mk_III]

Wow,this is a disgusting jumping if I've ever seen one. They'll do everything in their power to make Kratos & Sonic look like shit in comparison though.

 

[JoshDoshMosh]

Wow,this is a disgusting jumping if I've ever seen one. They'll do everything in their power to make Kratos & Sonic look like shit in comparison though.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Goku when Kratos and Sonic use the power of friendship:

 

[Tipper17]

Wow,this is a disgusting jumping if I've ever seen one. They'll do everything in their power to make Kratos & Sonic look like shit in comparison though.

As they should
Sick of the meatriding

 

[Issen_Mk_III]

As they should
Sick of the meatriding

Goku meatriding completely transcends vs debating. The others are niche as **** by comparison.

 

[Gyra1524]

Thoughts?

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Comparing turn based combat in an RPG to a point and click adventure and saying neither are actually video games is one hell of a take, must've taken that dude an incredible amount of brain power to think of something like that.

Yes, a lot, I assume.

They were also saying something like, "calling them video games is an insult to actual video games like The Legend of Zelda, God of War, Doom, etcetera," which left me even more confused.

I think they said they consider these "not video games" as more like interactive movies/power points? I didn't really get it either.

 

[Maskofthedragon]

but it turns out that they didn't think turn-based combat counted as gameplay

This kind of nonsense has existed forever
FF summons have got to be some of the most clear-cut feats yet people will still genuinely believe some bs to ignore them

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

This kind of nonsense has existed forever
FF summons have got to be some of the most clear-cut feats yet people will still genuinely believe some bs to ignore them

Oh, I know, but it wasn't that this person ignored them (they didn't, they probably just forgot about them, maybe (I'm probably giving them too much credit)) that was weird, it's that they legitimately believed that turn-based RPGs are not video games. That's what was surprising to me.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Goku heard battleboarders talking about how strong Fate characters are. You guys are responsible for this.

 

[JoshDoshMosh]

Comparing turn based combat in an RPG to a point and click adventure and saying neither are actually video games is one hell of a take, must've taken that dude an incredible amount of brain power to think of something like that.

Character rants ass take

 

[ZeNoviceArtist]

I think they said they consider these "not video games" as more like interactive movies/power points? I didn't really get it either.

I blame The Last Of Us for popularizing interactive movie games.

 

[Dust_Collector]

FF summons have got to be some of the most clear-cut feats yet people will still genuinely believe some bs to ignore them

Too bad that doesn't save Cloud from Link who is multiversal in the lore trust me bro he scales to the goddesses

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Too bad that doesn't save Cloud from Link who is multiversal in the lore trust me bro he scales to the goddesses

I'm no Zelda expert here, but don't people highball Link to that level because of the Triforce? I've heard some rumbling over the years that the full Triforce can grant the user the power to rival the gods, but again I know diddly dick about Zelda lore so I'll just ask if that's true or not

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Too bad that doesn't save Cloud from Link who is multiversal in the lore trust me bro he scales to the goddesses

I'm no Zelda expert here, but don't people highball Link to that level because of the Triforce? I've heard some rumbling over the years that the full Triforce can grant the user the power to rival the gods, but again I know diddly dick about Zelda lore so I'll just ask if that's true or not

He's just mad the blonde that doesn't have pointed ears but has a bigger sword is usually rated higher in Vs forums.