ReaperAndBlues
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Also what is Madara's answer to Aizen being Mahoraga on steroids? He would evolve to gain resistances to anything he does.
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Death Battle REMATCH | Madara vs Aizen
- Thread starter RanaProGamer
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if madara starts with infinite tsukuyomi he might survive
Arcker123
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First off, You're shifting the burden. You've still provided no legit argument as to why the resistances don't carry over to his attacks, which is the base assumption for any resistance. Secondly, I did provide an argument:
I was just debunking your counter to this, because you misinterpreted the scene you used as counterevidence.
Read TBTP. We do see Aizen use that Kido as a method of hiding multiple times (against shinji first, then to escape Tessai). This isn't a debunk to anything I argued.
Aizen has at least used the kido multiple times in canon, more than I can say for limbo using any jutsu.
What about "some sealing working doesn't invalidate a resistance or prove Madara can do it" is so hard to grasp? You talk about hax layering, yet don't understand how it's applied to anything beyond Genjutsu.
Besides, this just ignores the context of the Hogyoku allowing Aizen to get sealed due to his wish of losing. Aizens even implied to be there of his own volition at the end of the manga.
Aizen evolves resistances to anything Madara does and just one taps.
You've given absolutely no explanation as to why Izanami does anything. I think your argument as to why IT works is a baseless headcanon and is far better and more readily explained by GOATMAN's soul claim. Occam was a bitch.
You haven't proven this at all. The only difference between orochimaru and the edo tensei is that the edo tensei are already dead souls given bodies. Aizen is similarly a dead soul, so it's reasonable to doubt it ever working.
Doesn't mean they aren't souls that can't be equalized to Edo Tensei. They're not living beings in the same way a human or a zetsu is. Everything they do eat or breathe is spiritual in nature (Reishi is funny like that).
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Arcker123
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Aizen would shunpo up to him and stop him from trying.
ReaperAndBlues
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Aizen's gonna stop him from doing it by mogging him with the Soul King's jawline and telling him that shit won't work
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No, a scan saying that the reason why IT did not work on Edo Tensei is because they were in a Zetsu body.
Where is the clear reason? I've reread the chapter to make sure, but I couldn't find it.
All I'm hearing is Aizen in a gigai would be immune to IT, since Aizen is an immortal soul.
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Madara respectfully
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Aizen. Simply cause he is stronger, tougher, has better hax and is smarter overall.
Madara has cool abilities yes, but Aizen has counters for all of them, including Infinite Tsukuyomi.
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Even assuming that Aizen gets hit by it, somehow, Aizen's massively higher Reiatsu would resist it, basic Reiatsu has mind hax resistances, and the Hogyoku kind of negs. What's the Genjutsu's answer to it just evolving Aizen to resist it and manipulating fate for it not to work?
Beyond the fact Infinite Tsukuyomi don't work on souls.
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What are the arguments for both sides?
ReaperAndBlues
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Madara's only wincon is Infinite Tsukuyomi. Aizen has everything else. Also no one has tackled why Madara would stand a chance against fate hax, so rn Madara is kinda f**ked
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So for 1 I think the fate hax stuff is wonky, not going to lie. I didn't see Aizen's Mahoraga lvl adapting but as far as Madara's win cons go....
Infinite Tsukiyomi as said before but also Limbo clones that are the same strength as Madara including they can all utilize their own perfect Susano'o which should bring up his AP, Genjutsu should be vastly superior compared to Aizen's atp and Madara could possibly steal the Hogyoku better than Gin did and probably destroy it.
Infinite Tsukiyomi as said before but also Limbo clones that are the same strength as Madara including they can all utilize their own perfect Susano'o which should bring up his AP, Genjutsu should be vastly superior compared to Aizen's atp and Madara could possibly steal the Hogyoku better than Gin did and probably destroy it.
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From what I’ve read, Aizen seems to have more votes but not marginally more for this to be added yet
Arcker123
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Probably won't work.
That would've been a perfect ability to use in the manga to win any of his major fights, shame that they didn't.
Hogyoku is also cable of evolving Aizen cosmic awareness to sense them (It did this in canon for muken Aizen, no reason it couldn't if it felt like aizen needed it here), along with its own arguable interdimensional range.
Reikaku flat out negs any occular jutsu. Aizen doesn't use eyesight.
The Hogyoku is a physical object, so Chakra absorption feats (tailed beasts are pure chakra) means nothing (Aizen also resists absorption)
Even if we assume Madara muscles it away from Aizens superior durability (which increases exponentially mid fight due to the Hogyoku), Gin shows us that stealing it from Aizen means literally nothing, and it will still allow Aizen to evolve, regen, and teleport to it at will. Madara stealing the Hogyoku will get him one-shot.
Hogyoku has mid godly regeneration just like Aizen does (they both regenerated from Mugetsu), and has been destroyed numerous times (scans in profile) and still regenerates. Madara has absolutely nothing in his kit to destroy mid godly permanently.than Gin did and probably destroy it.
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Why?
Cool, glad we agree.
He'd have to know what they are before an effective counter-measure is used.
He uses both. Genjutsu is still incredibly effective here.
Tailed Beasts are physical chakra manifestations, can I see that btw? ( Does the Hogyoku?)
No no, Gin did nothing with it besides run away and plan on what to do with it. I'm arguing Madara destroys it right there to a much weaker Aizen than in his stronger fusion. Perfect Susanoo amps him significantly. Can I see that his durability increasing exponentially during the fight?
I looked. Where has the Hogyoku regenerated?
ReaperAndBlues
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Good thing he has info analysis in his physiology and as his raw intellect-based ability. Also the Hogyoku would notice whatever Aizen was hit by and how to counter it, which is why it doesn't matter in the first place.
No not really, Aizen adapted to his senses being reversed by Shinji, which affected his Reikaku as well, Aizen would just find a way around it since unlike vs Shinji, he has Reikaku untouched.
Look at the AP diff from the first fusion to the second fusion, if Madara triggers his RE, he's cooked beyond belief because then he dies from Reiatsu Crush due to the AP diff. Also you need to neg Mid-Godly to destroy the Hogyoku, which Madara cannot do
The Hogyoku itself grants regen and has a mind of its own, so logically the Hogyoku can regenerate on its own. There are probably scans of it doing so, but I'm too tired rn to look but Arcker might have them.
Arcker123
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Look over the past page of debate. Its about the Edo Tensei, and how Aizen being a spirit would react in a similar way.
That was sarcasm. You didn't dispute the idea that limbo even using jutsu (let alone susanoo) is out of character, and is thus tantamount to fannon.
Incorrect. Aizen can evolve cosmic awareness naturally as apart of his evolutions (as he did in canon). Aizen having knowledge is thus irrelevant to the Hogyoku's capability to spontaneously give him that ability, as it can already do so naturally.
Edit: The Hogyoku can also read minds, ND determine the hearts of those around it, so you can argue for Aizen having knowledge.
Physical chakra manifestation ≠ Physical orb. An esoteric energy becoming tangible isn't the same as an actual object. How were they Physical as well inside of Madara's body?
Check soul physiology for the absorption resistances.
Aizen in base is already stronger than Madara, even before evolutions. Check the AP sections. Hogyoku Regens any damage it takes given how it regenerated from Mugetsu, and thus has mid godly.
Out of character for S06P madara, who never used susanoo in that form.
The Hogyoku took him from 5-C to 4-A in one transformation, and also took him from 4-A to 3-C by just sitting on his ass. Literally billions of times stronger in terms of a pure VS wiki ap scale. That's the kind of evolution the Hogyoku is capable.
Over the course of a short fight, Aizen becomes too durable to damage and just one shots.
I gave you multiple examples. Mugetsu, Yhwach crushing a hole in Aizens chest where the Hogyoku is, Getting incinerate from the inside out and being reduced to nothing by Kisuke's wrist seals (forcing Aizen to create a cocoon around the literal nothingness that was his body as it reformed). All of these things effected the Hogyoku (due to being in Aizen's body) and as such, shows it can regen, which is also explicitly outlined on profile:
"Regeneration (Mid-Godly - Aizen and the Hōgyoku itself can quickly regenerate from attacks such as Mugetsu or any attack within The Soul Society[63][64]), The Hogyoku reforms in the same way Aizen's body does.
Madara has nothing in his kit that can do anything to the Hogyoku. Stealing it will only get him killed like Gin (Which will force Aizen to evolve and one shot him).
Also, why should I grant that Madara is even capable of destroying the Hogyoku? Reality Warping, fate hax, Aizen just evolving and teleporting all make destroying it an uphill battle (Ignoring the fact he's not even capable of destroying it).
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It's good to see people debating for Madara to make the thread more active and the debate more competitive, but I just don't see Madara winning this fight. All of his abilities are either completely useless against Aizen because of his regeneration or him possessing resistances to them; while Aizen has several wincons against Madara, be them Kido that Madara doesn't resist or eventually defeating him through a battle of attrition and accumulated damage.
I vote for Aizen.
I vote for Aizen.
Arcker123
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Missed this in my prior big post, but this is also incorrect. Reikaku explicitly shuts down the natural eyesight passively in order for the combatant to focus on using it in it's entirety. Aizen has no eyesight, and thus negs any occular genjutsu by default, in the same way Kabuto avoided occular genjutsu.
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even restricting SC makes this a stomp
Arcker123
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No. Madara resists it's effects by in large.
What makes this a stomp is if we come to a consensus about IT not working, in which case Madara has absolutely no wincons (unless Kinsey goons Izanami to death, which even then has its problems).
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Madara does not resist/can't regenerate from his soul getting crushed
its stated on the profiles as long as the soul remains, the edo tensei will come back to life
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My vote goes to Aizen btw.
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I wanna call out something. So Genjutsu in order for it to be effective requires a Chakra Network, which circulates the brain and the whole body at the cellular level, and the Reiatsu flow chart shows the Reiatsu flowing from the Shinigami's core, then goes to their wrists and Zanpakuto, hence why Shinigami have wrist vents... so maybe the Genjutsu Chakra that is used just leaves Aizen's body and would barely do anything.
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I'm only gonna address infinite tsukyomi since it's the only thing relevant in this battle right now (and izanami) Trying to say INFT won't work on aizen because it didn't work on the edo tensei because they are "dead" simply dosen't work. Especially since genjutsu has feats of working of the dead and effecting ones spirit
The edo hokage are souls trapped in another body. Their souls are simply possessing the corpses of white zetsu . Orochimaru isn't a antifeat because he isnt a white zetsu Orochimaru used the white to return TO LIFE. Aizen or bleach characters aren't dead in the same aspect as edo tensei, like I said earlier they age, get sick, get hungry, and are essentially just humans but made of reishi, to act like that is the same as a soul taking over a dead body is wild. The INFT captures its victim and places them inside an illusion that eventually turns them into a WZ, it can't do that to a corpse for obvious reasons.
For izanami it's simple, it's a direct counter to fate hax, anybody trying to change or alter fate get put in a infinite loop
The edo hokage are souls trapped in another body. Their souls are simply possessing the corpses of white zetsu . Orochimaru isn't a antifeat because he isnt a white zetsu Orochimaru used the white to return TO LIFE. Aizen or bleach characters aren't dead in the same aspect as edo tensei, like I said earlier they age, get sick, get hungry, and are essentially just humans but made of reishi, to act like that is the same as a soul taking over a dead body is wild. The INFT captures its victim and places them inside an illusion that eventually turns them into a WZ, it can't do that to a corpse for obvious reasons.
For izanami it's simple, it's a direct counter to fate hax, anybody trying to change or alter fate get put in a infinite loop
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That's a genetic fallacy.
We're still asking for feats.
Not really, it just places you in an illusion that repeats the segments. There is no direct showing of it working on fate manipulation. Plus Madara has no showings of Izanami, so why?
Arcker123
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So? Genjutsu can have different effects and functions.
Headcanon you could never support with anything from the manga. Show any scan that supports this interpretation.
Also, as Goatman said, this argument literally concedes that Aizen in a gigai or something can't be effected, since thats also a soul taking over a puppet body.
That does not make them equivalent to living beings. They have to eat and such because they are so dense in Reishi, not because they're living beings.
Consuming Reishi because you need it ≠ Being a living being whi consumes typical food.
Yet did to Orochimaru...
Madara needs to get Aizen to start the loop in the first place, which the Hogyoku would never allow using fatehax or evolution to end the fight. Izanami does not literally do anything with fate, it's a genjustsu that creates a mental loop. Stop gooning "Accept your fate" statements.
Besides, Madara would never use Izanami on Aizen in the first place. The technique only works if the victim has something they reject about themselves (Kabuto rejected his identity, Izanagi users rejected the consequences of their shit). Madaras does not know anything about Aizen, and thus wouldn't sacrifice any of his eyes on using an ability he doesn't know would even work.
Izanami is not a convincing argument. It's just another ability he's never used to counter an ability he doesn't know about. This is the definition of a "controller up his ass" argument.
Who cares about that function of edo tensei? Is madara an edo tensei in this key.
Madara has Resisted soul tugging and the like, fair to imply he could do something to the spiritual aspects of RC.
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ReaperAndBlues
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Izanami has nothing to do with actual fatehax lmao, it's a damn genjutsu, which Aizen circumvents with Reikaku and of which Madara has NEVER used in character before. If Madara exhausted his options and tried, there would be very little that happens, in addition to the fact that one of the many wincons Aizen has would already have been achieved.
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if the argument is that IT doesnt work on Aizen then this should be closed, its a hax stomp.
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I might be missing some larger context here, why do you say "the edo hokage are souls trapped in another body. Their souls are simply possessing the corpses of white zetsu" is head canon
artificial bodies are not enough, as regular sharingan genjutsu can effect entirely artificial beings
ReaperAndBlues
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Aizen was robbed
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Why are Edo Tensei immune to IT? I though that it was because they were spirits and hence are not affected by IT. Aizen, by being a spirit as well, would be immune to IT. Even if other Genjutsu were able to affect Edo Tensei, it just means that IT has a specific blindspot for spirits.
Arcker123
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I'm saying assuming that's the reason they aren't affected, or them being dead souls possessing a body. I'm skeptical to believe that's even the reason due to orochimaru.
To take this route is to admit Kinseys explanation doesn't work. I'm drawing an analogy between Kinseys interpretation of the IT, and Gigai. If being a dead soul in possession of another body (as Kinsey claimed) is the reason, aizen can't be affected.
Arcker123
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Aizen grace started with this vote btw. This was the seventh vote for him, and since Madara does not have 5 votes, grace has been over for a while.
Sorry for double posting, but since I counted it...
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what about Orochimaru? i dont follow, Orochimaru's jutsu isnt comparable to edo tensei, at all, the latter changes the body into dust and ash.
I mean idk what the arguments are in general tbh, as i just popped into the thread. but if IT doesnt work then this should prob be closed as Madara has absolutely no wincons.
Arcker123
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The original claim was that the Edo werent affected because they were in Zetsu bodies. The counter to that was, When Orochimaru brought back the kage, he put his soul into a white zetsu to escape the cost of being sealed in the belly of the reaper. Lo and behold, he was still trapped in the infinite tsukuyomi. This makes me skeptical of the reason the edo's were not effected being because they were trapped in zetsu, which why Kinsey created the ad hoc "dead soul" distinction.
Eh. Izanami gg.
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