Death Battle REMATCH | Madara vs Aizen

[Kidkinsey]

Even prior to tybw ks was classified as perception manipulation. It literally still is I just checked

His fear manip resistance comes from not only the genjutsu res, but being able to withstand tobirama and hashirams aura, the paralysis resistance every ninja genin and above have

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Even prior to tybw ks was classified as perception manipulation. It literally still is I just checked

His fear manip resistance comes from not only the genjutsu res, but being able to withstand tobirama and hashirams aura, the paralysis resistance every ninja genin and above have

Also Kurama's Fear Hax not working on him.

 

[Noes]

There is also an AP difference between Aizen and Madara. Will Madara really be able to deal with Aizen's immortality and superior intelligence, and I still do not think he can withstand the spiritual and physical pressure.

 

[Robo432343]

madara cant survive his soul being crushed

i wish there was a way to restrict soul crush in bleach matches

 

[RanaProGamer]

madara cant survive his soul being crushed

i wish there was a way to restrict soul crush in bleach matches

I’ll just quote the profiles,
(Users of Six Paths chakra are unaffected by the effects of the Truthseeker Orbs, and can physically interact with them.[279][280][281][282][251][166]Characters with particularly powerful chakra and a high degree of chakra control were able to withstand[283][284] having their souls[285]extracted[119][120] by engaging[286][116] in a "Soul Tug-of-War". Characters on this level have also directly shown the ability to withstand direct attacks to their souls[119][120]when engaged in these chakra-to-chakra clashes[287][288][118][289])
So yes, this is baseline resistance, so Madara can resist having his soul crushed

 

[Robo432343]

I’ll just quote the profiles,
(Users of Six Paths chakra are unaffected by the effects of the Truthseeker Orbs, and can physically interact with them.[279][280][281][282][251][166]Characters with particularly powerful chakra and a high degree of chakra control were able to withstand[283][284] having their souls[285]extracted[119][120] by engaging[286][116] in a "Soul Tug-of-War". Characters on this level have also directly shown the ability to withstand direct attacks to their souls[119][120]when engaged in these chakra-to-chakra clashes[287][288][118][289])
So yes, this is baseline resistance, so Madara can resist having his soul crushed

having souls extracted and having your soul attacked does not mean surviving a soul crush

(none of the scans work btw)

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

I’ll just quote the profiles,
(Users of Six Paths chakra are unaffected by the effects of the Truthseeker Orbs, and can physically interact with them.[279][280][281][282][251][166]Characters with particularly powerful chakra and a high degree of chakra control were able to withstand[283][284] having their souls[285]extracted[119][120] by engaging[286][116] in a "Soul Tug-of-War". Characters on this level have also directly shown the ability to withstand direct attacks to their souls[119][120]when engaged in these chakra-to-chakra clashes[287][288][118][289])
So yes, this is baseline resistance, so Madara can resist having his soul crushed

Every link here is dead

 

[Noes]

I’ll just quote the profiles,
(Users of Six Paths chakra are unaffected by the effects of the Truthseeker Orbs, and can physically interact with them.[279][280][281][282][251][166]Characters with particularly powerful chakra and a high degree of chakra control were able to withstand[283][284] having their souls[285]extracted[119][120] by engaging[286][116] in a "Soul Tug-of-War". Characters on this level have also directly shown the ability to withstand direct attacks to their souls[119][120]when engaged in these chakra-to-chakra clashes[287][288][118][289])
So yes, this is baseline resistance, so Madara can resist having his soul crushed

The scans are not working, I thought it was my problem, but Reaper and Robo say the same thing and the removal of the soul≠crushing of the soul.

 

[KingogKings777]

I’ll just quote the profiles,
(Users of Six Paths chakra are unaffected by the effects of the Truthseeker Orbs, and can physically interact with them.[279][280][281][282][251][166]Characters with particularly powerful chakra and a high degree of chakra control were able to withstand[283][284] having their souls[285]extracted[119][120] by engaging[286][116] in a "Soul Tug-of-War". Characters on this level have also directly shown the ability to withstand direct attacks to their souls[119][120]when engaged in these chakra-to-chakra clashes[287][288][118][289])
So yes, this is baseline resistance, so Madara can resist having his soul crushed

I thought I got rid of that on a crt or was that a different soul manip?

 

[LevitraGB]

Aizen can get mad with his sc,ks, hogyoku and superior intelligence, I vote for Aizen

Me either, I agree.

 

[Arcker123]

Also don't forget he has the rinnegan abilities so he COULD absorb any energy based attack aizen has basically forcing him to rely on had to hand

Resisted

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Madara in this key opens with limbo, u can argue aizen can sense them (although that's his tybw key iirc) but how does he actually touch them?

Also don't forget he has the rinnegan abilities so he COULD absorb any energy based attack aizen has basically forcing him to rely on had to hand

I also agree ks isnt mind manipulation but since when wasn't it perception manipulation?

Not only does Aizen resist, but why would he rely on hand to hand? Aizen has a sword. Even so, I don't think Madara is overwhelming him in Taijutsu/Hakuda considering Aizen has mastered all forms of Hakuda as well. In fact, I'd even say Aizen is giving him a little trouble there too

 

[Kidkinsey]

Where is the resistance to having energy attacks absorbed?

Also by hand to hand I meant close combat my fault. Close combat would actually favor madara imo due to sharingans prediction/ sage mode danger awareness and other senses

 

[Arcker123]

Where is the resistance to having energy attacks absorbed?

Also by hand to hand I meant close combat my fault. Close combat would actually favor madara imo due to sharingans prediction/ sage mode danger awareness and other senses

Soul Physiology

Hogyoku simply adapts to these things, warps fate to achieve Aizens wishes, and none of these senses matter since Madara has no way of killing Aizen.

 

[Kidkinsey]

I'm confused by the panel, uyru took some of ichigos energy to amp his weapon. How does that correlate to attacks not being able to be absorbed

What exactly would it be adapting too? It's not gonna make madara not be able see his next moves. Also where does his resistance to sealing come from. Because the god tree dosen't just immobile you it makes you unable to use any moves. It drains your energy the moment it touches you

 

[Arcker123]

I'm confused by the panel, uyru took some of ichigos energy to amp his weapon. How does that correlate to attacks not being able to be absorbed

It simply shows that Quincy absorb energy as well, and Shinigami, despite being made of Reishi aren't affected due to their spiritual density.

What exactly would it be adapting too? It's not gonna make madara not be able see his next moves.

It's gonna warp fate in a way that Makes aizen win. The Hogyoku grants whatever Aizen truly wishes for in his heart, which by SBA is victory (Madara has no counter to this whatsover).

He can also take advantage of the sharingans weakness to speed and simply evolve far beyond Madara in that department.

Also where does his resistance to sealing come from. Because the god tree dosen't just immobile you it makes you unable to use any moves. It drains your energy the moment it touches you

Read the page. He resists Ichibei's conceptual hax which is capable of sealing people (Like Ikomiki, sealing him into a blade by renaming the blade and stealing Ikos name), and is capable of reducing and outright pulling powers.

Aizen resists all of this on a far more potent level than anything Madara has.

 

[Noes]

Yes, Aizen literally crushes Madara. Aizen's wincon is SC and KS. Madara's Aizen can only be defeated with genjutsu. Genjutsu can be used to induce paralysis, mind manipulation, fear manipulation, etc. It has effects. If there are things I haven't mentioned, you can write them down. Aizen has resistance to all of these.

 

[Arcker123]

Madara's Aizen can only be defeated with genjutsu

Occular GJ won't work on Aizen like it couldn't work on Kabuto. Aizen doesn't use his eyesight to fight. Infinite Tsukuyomi is Madara's only wincon.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

IS is also gonna get stopped by Aizen not only fighting Madara and stopping him from immediately trying it, but his social influencing to goad him into fighting.

 

[GOATMAN1232000]

Infinite Tsukuyomi is Madara's only wincon.

Does IT work on ghosts? The Edo Tensei were not affected by it. Why should Aizen?

 

[Arcker123]

Lowkey a good point, i had forgotten about that.

The way I see the fight going now is Aizen to regenerate and evolve past Madara after some exchanges and just crushing him with pure stats. Madara has no wincon now.

 

[Kidkinsey]

Does IT work on ghosts? The Edo Tensei were not affected by it. Why should Aizen?

It didn't work on the edo tensei specifically because they were white zetsu that had somebody else's soul uh their body. Genjutsu works on souls/spirits there's a plot reason as to why IT didn't work on the edo hokage

It simply shows that Quincy absorb energy as well, and Shinigami, despite being made of Reishi aren't affected due to their spiritual density.

It's gonna warp fate in a way that Makes aizen win. The Hogyoku grants whatever Aizen truly wishes for in his heart, which by SBA is victory (Madara has no counter to this whatsover).

He can also take advantage of the sharingans weakness to speed and simply evolve far beyond Madara in that department.

Read the page. He resists Ichibei's conceptual hax which is capable of sealing people (Like Ikomiki, sealing him into a blade by renaming the blade and stealing Ikos name), and is capable of reducing and outright pulling powers.

Aizen resists all of this on a far more potent level than anything Madara has.

Nothing there says absorbing energy attacks fired off isn't possible. Unless you're gonna argue their attacks are just as dense as their actual bodies

Outside of evolving when has it warped fate in combat to go aizens way? It's not like it can make events of fights go differently. Madara also has a direct counter to fate manip being the izanami

I read the page I'm not seeing the correlation, the god trees sealing dosen't function like that. Isn't aizen currently sealed right now and the seals are working (limiting his range)

 

[Arcker123]

Nothing there says absorbing energy attacks fired off isn't possible. Unless you're gonna argue their attacks are just as dense as their actual bodies

Your burden to prove otherwise. There's no reason to think their resistance wouldn't apply to his attacks.

Aizen can also make all of his attacks completely imperceptible with Kyokko, a kido that bends space and light to give his attacks layered invisibility, so madara won't even see them coming.

Outside of evolving when has it warped fate in combat to go aizens way? It's not like it can make events of fights go differently.

It did in canon though? Aizen was defeated specifically because of the Hogyoku warping reality and fate. It's fate manip is completely combat applicable, just depends on whatever Aizen truly wishes for.

Nothing I'm arguing about the Hogyoku's fate manipulation is out of its realm of possibility. Major events and outcomes of the Bleach story happened specifically because of the Hogyoku's influence. The Hogyoku is absolutely capable of just making events that favor its master happen if it wants too. It did so in canon several times (scans on profile).

Madara also has a direct counter to fate manip being the izanami

No clue how this is true. Izanami nor Izanagi (which would cause Madara to lose one of his eyes and Lose half of his AP) have anything to do with fate manipulation, and their effects would inherently be supercedes by it.

Madara is never forcing Aizen into a loop due to Hogyoku evolving him to one shot levels (Even half chrysalis Aizen could one-shot and nosell attacks from his base form rival Kisuke, who has higher AP then madara), and Izanagi would just force Aizen to kill him a couple times, which after a while would be child's play.

I read the page I'm not seeing the correlation, the god trees sealing dosen't function like that. Isn't aizen currently sealed right now and the seals are working (limiting his range)

It's just far more potent sealing than anything the God Tree can do. It's your burden to prove why the god tree would get past Aizen's resistances (which protect him from these sealing type abilities at the conceptual level).

Aside from the obvious (One form of sealing working doesn't mean Madara's will. The best geniuses in Bleach spending years developing a chair with technology capable of taking Aizen's power isn't proof Madara can), it's also dubious if the seals are even capable of fully restricting Aizen.

Aizen is capable of negging multiple seals outright with just a fraction of his power (Chapter 616), but he also believes that he'd be able to overpower Mayuri's seal. There's no reason god tree sealing does anything against Aizen's superior resistances.

 

[KingogKings777]

It didn't work on the edo tensei specifically because they were white zetsu that had somebody else's soul uh their body

Got any proof for this/statement? Also this is disproven by Orochimaru who's body is also a white zetsu.

 

[Kidkinsey]

Your burden to prove otherwise. There's no reason to think their resistance wouldn't apply to his attacks.

Aizen can also make all of his attacks completely imperceptible with Kyokko, a kido that bends space and light to give his attacks layered invisibility, so madara won't even see them coming.

It did in canon though? Aizen was defeated specifically because of the Hogyoku warping reality and fate. It's fate manip is completely combat applicable, just depends on whatever Aizen truly wishes for.

Nothing I'm arguing about the Hogyoku's fate manipulation is out of its realm of possibility. Major events and outcomes of the Bleach story happened specifically because of the Hogyoku's influence. The Hogyoku is absolutely capable of just making events that favor its master happen if it wants too. It did so in canon several times (scans on profile).

It's just far more potent sealing than anything the God Tree can do. It's your burden to prove why the god tree would get past Aizen's resistances (which protect him from these sealing type abilities at the conceptual level).

Aside from the obvious (One form of sealing working doesn't mean Madara's will. The best geniuses in Bleach spending years developing a chair with technology capable of taking Aizen's power isn't proof Madara can), it's also dubious if the seals are even capable of fully restricting Aizen.

Aizen is capable of negging multiple seals outright with just a fraction of his power (Chapter 616), but he also believes that he'd be able to overpower Mayuri's seal. There's no reason god tree sealing does anything against Aizen's superior resistances.

A energy attack isn't a high spiritual density body.

Madara would still be able to sense it and can he even mix kido like that

I know it is combat applicable but I'm saying it's never altered events of a fight. I understand his heart wasn't in it vs ichigo but what about literally every other fight he's been in

Isn't all that stuff tybw era? That's like 3 keys down

@KingogKings777 proof that the IT turns u into a white zetsu? The edo hokage can't die orochimaru can. There's no life force to drain from the EH because they are immortal zombies, just souls trapped within a white zetsu, orochimaru is actually alive and can be turned INTO a WZ which is why he was effected. We KNOW genjutsu works on the dead so acting like the strongest one in the verse somehow has limitations is wild

 

[Arcker123]

A energy attack isn't a high spiritual density body.

No, it's a high spiritual density attack. No reason the resistance doesn't apply.

Madara would still be able to sense it and can he even mix kido like that

Kyokko makes Kido imperceptible to the sixth sense, even layered sixth senses like Bleach. Madara won't sense it. Aside from limbo (which only throw punches), madara has nothing to make his attacks invisible to Aizens layered senses.

This Aizen can also use the reiatsu concealing cloak for the same effect, becoming imperceptible and insensible.

Isn't all that stuff tybw era? That's like 3 keys down

You're the one who brought it up to make your case about sealing. Only right I provide further context using it to show how you're wrong.

 

[Kidkinsey]

No, it's a high spiritual density attack. No reason the resistance doesn't apply.

Kyokko makes Kido imperceptible to the sixth sense, even layered sixth senses like Bleach. Madara won't sense it. Aside from limbo (which only throw punches), madara has nothing to make his attacks invisible to Aizens layered senses.

This Aizen can also use the reiatsu concealing cloak for the same effect, becoming imperceptible and insensible.

You're the one who brought it up to make your case about sealing. Only right I provide further context using it to show how you're wrong.

Bodies clearly aren't the same as weapons and attacks because uyru was able to steal some energy from zanpaktou

Characters with esp, energy detection. Cosmic awareness etc can't sense limbo yet madara can. So picking up on something that isn't detectable by normal means isn't out of his pay grade. Also limbo are stated to be = to the user they don't just throw punches. Every type of clone in naruto can use jutsu

I bought up tybw because you bought up ichibei lol. Every resistance to sealing feat i see is from tybw stuff

 

[Arcker123]

Bodies clearly aren't the same as weapons and attacks because uyru was able to steal some energy from zanpaktou

This never happened. Uryu wasn't stealing energy using his quincy ability to manipulate reishi, he simply came into contact with Ichigo's radiating spiritual pressure. Ichigo more accidentally lended Uryu power, due to his poor Reiatsu control, not Uryu stealing it. This is not an anti feat, and you've failed to prove your burden. Madara can't absorb any kido, he'll try to and get bodied.

Scan:

Characters with esp, energy detection. Cosmic awareness etc can't sense limbo yet madara can. So picking up on something that isn't detectable by normal means isn't out of his pay grade. Also limbo are stated to be = to the user they don't just throw punches. Every type of clone in naruto can use jutsu

Madara has no accepted ESP layers, Bleach does.

No character with Cosmic awareness in Natuto can't sense limbo. All the characters who have cosmic awareness got it for sensing limbo. Cosmic awareness is specifically the ability to sense things outside of your dimension. This is not a layer.

Limbo has no esp layers. Characters with esp can't sense them because their esp lacks the range to sense other dimensions. That's not a layer, but a weakness of the ESP. Madara will not see any power hidden by Kyokko, since he has no feats of seeing spatially hidden things (which BTW, is distinct from sensing something in another dimension).

We've never seen Limbo use Jutsu. Whether or not they can isn't something I care about. They just never would in a fight, given everything we've seen.

I bought up tybw because you bought up ichibei lol. Every resistance to sealing feat i see is from tybw stuff

OK???? You were just wrong about the TYBW stuff you brought up and I corrected you. This argument isn't meaningful or relevant.

For clarity, the resistance to sealing is inherent with the Hogyoku and Aizen has it in all keys.

 

[SlendVeny]

All according to Reikaku

 

[Arcker123]

All according to Reikaku

The bane of all Genjutsu users worldwide

 

[GOATMAN1232000]

It didn't work on the edo tensei specifically because they were white zetsu that had somebody else's soul uh their body. Genjutsu works on souls/spirits there's a plot reason as to why IT didn't work on the edo hokage

Can I have a source for that? And not all Genjutsu are the same. Else I would be claiming that Ocular Genjutsu can be broken out the same way normal Genjutsu can.

There's no life force to drain from the EH because they are immortal zombies, just souls trapped within a white zetsu

Why would Aizen have life force? He's a dead spirit, same as the spirits that inhabit the Edo Tensei.

 

[RanaProGamer]

Just wanna confirm, is the matchup fair as it is or is a stomp and I’ll have to restrict some stuff?

 

[Robo432343]

It's fair. Even if Naruto can bridge the AP gap with Asura, Ichigo can still endure the gap and grow to match him. The only thing that would make this slightly uneven is Blut Vene's durability, but even then, Ichigo doesn't use it on his own volition.

dude this is madara vs aizen
not ichigo vs naruto lol

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

dude this is madara vs aizen
not ichigo vs naruto lol

F***k wrong thread, the titles are deceivingly similar

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Anyways, this is fair, ish

 

[Robo432343]

this isn't fair because of sc

 

[Kidkinsey]

Can I have a source for that? And not all Genjutsu are the same. Else I would be claiming that Ocular Genjutsu can be broken out the same way normal Genjutsu can.

Why would Aizen have life force? He's a dead spirit, same as the spirits that inhabit the Edo Tensei.

A scan of the IT turning its victims into white zetsu? Yes not all genjutsu work the same but every single genjutsu that was used on a edo tensei worked InfT has a CLEAR reason as to why the edo hokage weren't targeted
He's "dead" in name but he isn't a immortal zombie with its soul trapped in another vessel like a edo tensei. Shinigami still age, fatigue etc and basically function like humans

This never happened. Uryu wasn't stealing energy using his quincy ability to manipulate reishi, he simply came into contact with Ichigo's radiating spiritual pressure. Ichigo more accidentally lended Uryu power, due to his poor Reiatsu control, not Uryu stealing it. This is not an anti feat, and you've failed to prove your burden. Madara can't absorb any kido, he'll try to and get bodied.

Scan:

Madara has no accepted ESP layers, Bleach does.

No character with Cosmic awareness in Natuto can't sense limbo. All the characters who have cosmic awareness got it for sensing limbo. Cosmic awareness is specifically the ability to sense things outside of your dimension. This is not a layer.

Limbo has no esp layers. Characters with esp can't sense them because their esp lacks the range to sense other dimensions. That's not a layer, but a weakness of the ESP. Madara will not see any power hidden by Kyokko, since he has no feats of seeing spatially hidden things (which BTW, is distinct from sensing something in another dimension).

We've never seen Limbo use Jutsu. Whether or not they can isn't something I care about. They just never would in a fight, given everything we've seen.

OK???? You were just wrong about the TYBW stuff you brought up and I corrected you. This argument isn't meaningful or relevant.

For clarity, the resistance to sealing is inherent with the Hogyoku and Aizen has it in all keys.

Ok now how does anything in that first paragraph prove attacks can't be absorbed? If uyru never tried to absorb anything then where is the feat of actual resistance?

Sir the same way we never seen madaras limbo use jutsu we've never seen aizen cloak an attack with a invisible spell and fire it off. Limbo are stated to be= to the user

Did kisuke not seal aizen? Where exactly is his pre tybw sealing resistance coming from

But seeing as I'm the only madara supporter here we can just discuss wincons lmao. I think infinite tsukyomi or izanami win the fight, what are your aizen win cons?

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Hogyoku fate hax, social influencing, skill, Mid-Godly, sealing, Kyoka Suigetsu

 

[Kidkinsey]

Madara is this key is headset on launching IT. Social influencing isnt much of a factor. Both are top tiers in their verse in close combat there won't be any skill stomps. Madara resist sealing+ can swap his limbo clones out for him OR just use izanagi to comeback to life. Madara resist perception manipulation+ illusion creation

Also if the Hogyoku has a mind of its own and grants the deepest desires of those around it, who's to say it won't be beneficial towards madara?

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Madara is this key is headset on launching IT. Social influencing isnt much of a factor.

Aizen is very cunning and has a massive intelligence advantage. He can manipulate people who are far more mentally stubborn than Madara

Both are top tiers in their verse in close combat there won't be any skill stomps.

No skill stomps, but a noticable difference. I'm not gonna debate this lest I need to because there are better wincons.

Madara resist sealing+ can swap his limbo clones out for him OR just use izanagi to comeback to life.

Then he sacrifices an eye, so it's not gonna be so easy.

Madara resist perception manipulation+ illusion creation

From mind manipulation, not from direct control of his senses.

Also if the Hogyoku has a mind of its own and grants the deepest desires of those around it, who's to say it won't be beneficial towards madara?

It's completely loyal to Aizen. Madara is not getting shit from it. The fate hax are probably the most important thing here.