DEATH BATTLE! Fighting Animation Discussion Thread

[MintyBoi1]

Umm bump?

Due to Broly's calc being updated with every remnant of the previous version removed, I've decided to update the profile to have the downgraded stats (and I've also upgraded base Broly because Large Size permits it), but to replace that I have Galaxia's black hole calc also being wrong (in a good way because the new version would actually upgrade them)

Which would also make their Solar System rating actually make sense, Supernovae are Large Star level feats, even when multiplied by ten!

Good stuff. Btw, any comments on Naruto? I can’t think of anything I’ve really missed besides the complications with him using Six Paths mode. I think I’m just gonna add the nature energy absorption to his profile

 

[MintyBoi1]

You guys think I should include Ichigo’s Holy Manip/Purification/BFR? While he lost, he was intending to purify Naruto’s soul like any other Hollow

 

[Spinoirr]

You guys think I should include Ichigo’s Holy Manip/Purification/BFR? While he lost, he was intending to purify Naruto’s soul like any other Hollow

Yee

 

[Flowerguy2]

You guys think I should include Ichigo’s Holy Manip/Purification/BFR? While he lost, he was intending to purify Naruto’s soul like any other Hollow

He hasn't even directly shown that ability on screen yet (Or stated), so likely no.

 

[MintyBoi1]

He hasn't even directly shown that ability on screen yet (Or stated), so likely no.

But the whole reason Ichigo was fighting Naruto was to exorcise the Hollow (Kurama) inside of him. It’s not very in character of him to state he has the power and he couldn’t do it while Naruto was fighting back. I think since it’s an intrinsic part of being a Shinigami (it’s their job to destroy Hollows and purify souls), he should have it

 

[MintyBoi1]

Ichigo sandbox btw. I’m just gonna drop him and Naruto together

 

[Spinoirr]

Ichigo sandbox btw. I’m just gonna drop him and Naruto together

I have a match up idea for Ichigo

 

[Flowerguy2]

But the whole reason Ichigo was fighting Naruto was to exorcise the Hollow (Kurama) inside of him. It’s not very in character of him to state he has the power and he couldn’t do it while Naruto was fighting back. I think since it’s an intrinsic part of being a Shinigami (it’s their job to destroy Hollows and purify souls), he should have it

And...? Just because he's apart of a species that did exactly that doesn't mean he get to have the same ability as his original self, plus... other combatants also 'shown' this, and yet they don't scale to their original selves (Spider-Man's Spider-Senses failing or triggering too early on him despite it BEING a well-known ability for him that can allowed him to easily avoid in-coming attacks, most of the DBZ's Combatants KI Attacks working differently from each other despite being from the same source, and The Scout's BONK!... do I even need to explain it?)
Even then, DB! Fights either started with petty reasons/small problems that could be easily resolve or even... no reason at all and yet they still fought to the end till one of them are dead (Which is what older seasons did back then, and yet they still do), this IS a simulation between one and each combatants on who would win in a fight, right?

 

[MintyBoi1]

And...? Just because he's apart of a species that did exactly that doesn't mean he get to have the same ability as his original self, plus... other combatants also 'shown' this, and yet they don't scale to their original selves (Spider-Man's Spider-Senses failing or triggering too early on him despite it BEING a well-known ability for him that can make him easily avoid in-coming attacks, most of the DBZ's Combatant KI Attacks working differently despite being from the same source, and The Scout's BONK!... do I even need to explain it?)
Even then, DB! Fights either started with petty reasons/small problems that could be easily resolve or even... no reason at all and yet they still fought to the end till one of them are dead (Which is what older seasons did back then, and yet they still do), this IS a simulation between one and each combatants who wins, right?

I get what you mean but then what the hell would’ve Ichigo done if he killed Naruto and couldn’t purify his soul? It seems like that’d be out of character even for this lesser version of Ichigo. The way it goes is he senses Kurama and moves to purify Naruto. If he couldn’t do either of those things, the fight would be null. He’s suggested to have the ability by his own words and actions and didn’t get the opportunity to use it solely because he died first.

 

[Flowerguy2]

I get what you mean but then what the hell would’ve Ichigo done if he killed Naruto and couldn’t purify his soul? It seems like that’d be out of character even for this lesser version of Ichigo. The way it goes is he senses Kurama and moves to purify Naruto. If he couldn’t do either of those things, the fight would be null.

'Out of character'? Hm? Well...

• The Ninja Turtles were murdering each other despite VERY WELL caring for each other like family (As they should) but yet they give each other BRUTAL DEATHS, and Raphael...
• Batman killing or TRYING to killed others despite it violating No Kill Rule.
• Venom just randomly attacking Crona despite their appearance depicting them as a scared and nervous child who has shown no aggression towards him with a creature behind their back forwhateverreason... despite being anti-hero and ACTIVELY protecting others who can't defend themselves.
• Grey and Esdeath just using their strongest moves despite both being strategists, one being known for using his weaker attacks and the other being a literal $adist.
• Martian Manhunter VS Silver Surfer's Ending, while not either characters not being out of character, it still helps supports this since J'onn and Norrin knowledges that one of them has to die yet for no reason at all.
• Asta is shown to be the victim of this too, if you want to see how, check the comments of this video to see for yourself.
• Most of the combatants are out of character in order to start the fight.

Oh, and why not the most important rule of all?

1. Combatants have no prior knowledge of each other unless specified.
2. To ensure a fair fight, any specific moral restraints from killing are removed from combatants. All other traits are considered.
3. A combatant's maximum personal potential is examined unless specified otherwise. Factors unrelated to combatants cannot end the battle.
4. Unless specified, all official material related to a character is applied unless found contradictory to the primary source material.

 

[MintyBoi1]

'Out of character'? Hm? Well...

• The Ninja Turtles were murdering each other despite VERY WELL caring for each other like family (As they should) but yet they give each other BRUTAL DEATHS, and Raphael...
• Batman killing or TRYING to killed others despite it violating No Kill Rule.
• Venom just randomly attacking Crona despite their appearance depicting them as a scared and nervous child who has shown no aggression towards him with a creature behind their back forwhateverreason... despite being anti-hero and ACTIVELY protecting others who can't defend themselves.
• Grey and Esdeath just using their strongest moves despite both being strategists, one being known for using his weaker attacks and the other being a literal $adist.
• Asta is shown to be the victim of this too, if you want to see how, check the comments of this video to see for yourself.
• Most, if not all, of the combatants are out of character in order to start the fight.

Oh, and why not the most important rule of all?

1. Combatants have no prior knowledge of each other unless specified.
2. To ensure a fair fight, any specific moral restraints from killing are removed from combatants. All other traits are considered.
3. A combatant's maximum personal potential is examined unless specified otherwise. Factors unrelated to combatants cannot end the battle.
4. Unless specified, all official material related to a character is applied unless found contradictory to the primary source material.

Being bloodlusted is natural in these fights. But Ichigo was bloodlusted for the reason of sensing a hollow. It’s not like he fought for no reason like your examples. And using bad writing in some episodes can’t apply to all episodes. The suggestion of the ability is there. Just like said in the rule, all other traits besides objection to killing are used. It’s in Ichigo’s nature to exorcise Hollows once he sees them. Let’s say Ghost Rider lost to Lobo. Would we say he cannot punish souls because he failed to do so against Lobo despite clearly attempting to? And would we not have Aang connecting to his past lives once he enters the Avatar State because it’s not stated in the fight?

We have to keep in mind that there’s an analysis before these fights. Viewers should already know these basic traits and as such characters don’t need to directly state them for them to be kept in mind. It’s not like Ichigo started a fight over some food or just randomly met Naruto and tried to end him. Ichigo moves to exorcise a Hollow because it’s his job and he has the explicit power to do so. He shouldn’t have to outright say he can, he just can.

 

[MintyBoi1]

Naruto and Ichigo are up

 

[Flowerguy2]

Being bloodlusted is natural in these fights. But Ichigo was bloodlusted for the reason of sensing a hollow. It’s not like he fought for no reason like your examples. And using bad writing in some episodes can’t apply to all episodes. The suggestion of the ability is there. Just like said in the rule, all other traits besides objection to killing are used. It’s in Ichigo’s nature to exorcise Hollows once he sees them.

Rewatching the bit... nope, that's just Extrasensory Perception... nothing else at all suggesting Holy/Purification/BFR hax is also there, just Ichigo sensing energy.

Let’s say Ghost Rider lost to Lobo. Would we say he cannot punish souls because he failed to do so against Lobo despite clearly attempting to?

No? Combatants like Makima, Archie Sonic and Alien X's ability were shown to failed against their respective opponents, and yet they still would have it because they still attempted to do it
But this is FAR different from Ichigo who barely or rarely shown this ability at all in the fight, it just looks like he gonna give Naruto a stabby-stab with his weapon and be done with it.

And would we not have Aang connecting to his past lives once he enters the Avatar State because it’s not stated in the fight?

Ooooooorrr even shown, too, y'know? But maayybbeeee...? Overall, It just looks like a power boost he just gained to quickly end off Edward imo.
Even then, Aang and Ghost Rider atleast demonstrated their ability UNLIKE Ichigo from my previous points so far.

We have to keep in mind that there’s an analysis before these fights. Viewers should already know these basic traits and as such characters don’t need to directly state them for them to be kept in mind. It’s not like Ichigo started a fight over some food or just randomly met Naruto and tried to end him. Ichigo moves to exorcise a Hollow because it’s his job and he has the explicit power to do so. He shouldn’t have to outright say he can, he just can.

Okay, but that doesn't help the fact you are violating our commitment of using from the animation once more:
The profiles of Death Battle combatants are based on their feats in the fighting animation, not their feats in the analysis.
This is why I went back to Diamond Drone's suggestion of expanding the elaboration of the Explanation's Section, we wouldn't have this problem if you just followed the commitment... which you are not right now. The Analyzes are NOT being used in the profiles at all, so why even point that out as an argument?

Even then, Ichigo HASN'T even OR directly shown, stated or implied that kind of ability on-screen in the animation itself, your reasoning for this is just "It's because it is HIS job as a character as in the original source!" but that doesn't mean he should have it automatically. You are just violating our rule of using stuff ONLY shown in the ANIMATION itself like you did with Tails and his Spin-Dash ability. Going back to what Diamond Drone said months ago:

One more issue with linking to this page is that it contradicts our consistent notation of "only things in the fight" by including an ability that uses a ton of scans from media OUTSIDE of the Death Battle animation (which also came out after it) and is also an ability for one specific continuity of the Sonic franchise that isn't Death Battle, which could also confuse readers of the page on how we seemingly allowed this "contradiction". So even if you wanted to use that page, you couldn't because of that!

This also shares with the same problem as Naturo's Multiple Selves (Which personally IMO seems more like Type 1 than 2 or 3) and Longevity, you are using other sources outside of the Death Battle's Animation itself.

 

[MintyBoi1]

Rewatching the bit... nope, that's just Extrasensory Perception... nothing else at all suggesting Holy/Purification/BFR hax is also there, just Ichigo sensing energy.

No? Combatants like Makima, Archie Sonic and Alien X's ability were shown to failed against their respective opponents, and yet they still would have it because they still attempted to do it
But this is FAR different from Ichigo who barely or rarely shown this ability at all in the fight, it just looks like he gonna give Naruto a stabby-stab with his weapon and be done with it.

Ooooooorrr even shown, too, y'know? But maayybbeeee...? Overall, It just looks like a power boost he just gained to quickly end off Edward imo.
Even then, Aang and Ghost Rider atleast demonstrated their ability UNLIKE Ichigo from my previous points so far.

Okay, but that doesn't help the fact you are violating our commitment of using from the animation once more:
The profiles of Death Battle combatants are based on their feats in the fighting animation, not their feats in the analysis.
This is why I went back to Diamond Drone's suggestion of expanding the elaboration of the Explanation's Section, we wouldn't have this problem if you just followed the commitment... which you are not right now. The Analyzes are NOT being used in the profiles at all, so why even point that out as an argument?

Even then, Ichigo HASN'T even OR directly shown, stated or implied that kind of ability on-screen in the animation itself, your reasoning for this is just "It's because it is HIS job as a character as in the original source!" but that doesn't mean he should have it automatically. You are just violating our rule of using stuff ONLY shown in the ANIMATION itself like you did with Tails and his Spin-Dash ability. Going back to what Diamond Drone said months ago:

This also shares with the same problem as Naturo's Multiple Selves (Which personally IMO seems more like Type 1 than 2 or 3) and Longevity, you are using other sources outside of the Death Battle's Animation itself.

I’d argue Ichigo saying “Is that a Hollow?” Then moving in is implication. It’s just not explicitly shown because the only way it could’ve gone beyond implication is Ichigo actually winning. There’d be no logical reason for him to fight Naruto if he didn’t think he could handle the Hollow. Death Battles do have internal logic like Batman knowing Iron Man. This is a season 4 episode, the writers steady put some valid reasonings. Kurama vies for all three types since he’s a separate being inside Naruto’s body as shown in the animation. And longevity maybe could go but Kirby has it for his age so I think Naruto having it for his heritage’s chakra amounts which he shows in the animation with the amount of jutsu he uses is fair.

 

[MintyBoi1]

I’m thinking maybe a likely for the Shinigami abilities would work. There’s implication but like you said they didn’t get the chance to be shown

 

[Diamond_Drone]

I’m thinking maybe a likely for the Shinigami abilities would work. There’s implication but like you said they didn’t get the chance to be shown

I cannot see how this can be a "likely", with just the animation itself the only conclusion that can be reached is:

he gonna give Naruto a stabby-stab with his weapon and be done with it.

OH and also here's this from the FC/OC main page itself:

• If a fanwork consistently demonstrates and maintains a different level of power from the original work, it should be judged and tiered based on its own feats, not on scaling to canon, even if the original is stronger. If the fanwork is meant to fit within the official timeline, failing to duplicate feats of the same level is fine, but actively contradicting the canon power level is not. As a general rule, fanfiction should not be automatically scaled to canon without an argument in its favor.
  • Naturally, this applies doubly to alternate universe and crossover fanfics, which can easily and often inherently contradict not just the statistics but also powers of the original canon materials.

 

[MintyBoi1]

I cannot see how this can be a "likely", with just the animation itself the only conclusion that can be reached is:

OH and also here's this from the FC/OC main page itself:

• If a fanwork consistently demonstrates and maintains a different level of power from the original work, it should be judged and tiered based on its own feats, not on scaling to canon, even if the original is stronger. If the fanwork is meant to fit within the official timeline, failing to duplicate feats of the same level is fine, but actively contradicting the canon power level is not. As a general rule, fanfiction should not be automatically scaled to canon without an argument in its favor.
  • Naturally, this applies doubly to alternate universe and crossover fanfics, which can easily and often inherently contradict not just the statistics but also powers of the original canon materials.

“Zanpakutō’s cleanse the souls of evil spirits which are Hollows, cleansing their very Reishi particles”

It is established in the animation that Ichigo can use Reishi which is how he flies and that he knows what a Hollow is plus the fact he personally deals with them. The only thing that isn’t established is the BFR half which I’d be fine with removing since it’s not suggested as strongly.

 

[Diamond_Drone]

It is established in the animation that Ichigo can use Reishi which is how he flies and that he knows what a Hollow is plus the fact he personally deals with them.

And how does that lead to the conclusion or state that...

“Zanpakutō’s cleanse the souls of evil spirits which are Hollows, cleansing their very Reishi particles”

...without the usage of information outside of the animation itself? Like I can see it being Extrasensory Perception and Soul Manipulation to see spititual energy and potentially harm or manipulate it in some way, but you're jumping to conclusions for hax from canon based on your knowledge and "the implications" (from one line about Hollows being mentioned).

Like, for the one page I've made for this Verse, I just looked at video itself and that's it. All the abilities and information he has listed are sourced from the fight and the background info, even if some them don't have links yet (and those links are not to their origin's fandom wiki, are we gonna have another Spin Dash moment?).

 

[MintyBoi1]

And how does that lead to the conclusion or state that...

...without the usage of information outside of the animation itself? Like I can see it being Extrasensory Perception and Soul Manipulation to see spititual energy and potentially harm or manipulate it in some way, but you're jumping to conclusions for hax from canon based on your knowledge and "the implications" (from one line about Hollows being mentioned).

Like, for the one page I've made for this Verse, I just looked at video itself and that's it. All the abilities and information he has listed are sourced from the fight and the background info, even if some them don't have links yet (and those links are not to their origin's fandom wiki, are we gonna have another Spin Dash moment?).

I mean Ichigo literally says “What’s this energy? Is that a Hollow?” Before attacking Naruto with his blade. I feel an outsider would assume that’s suggesting he cleanses evil spirits with the one weapon he uses throughout the fight. But I can see how Soul Manipulation seems better. Still, this isn’t a situation where I’m missing something. It’s just complicated because we either throw away something crucial or leave it in with the risk of it not being entirely clear because the animation glossed over Hollows.

 

[Soupywolf5]

Since the profiles are specifically meant to be based on the animations and the animations only. Like with Nemesis' description in his video on episodes wrong by their own research, someone with no prior knowledge on either character should be able to watch the fight and ascertain that the stats and P&A are correct. Some of the profiles, don't do that and have other general issues. Going through all of this would probably be better in its own thread but this discussion thread is already here and I didn't feel like it

Also I underestimated how long this would take so I'm only doing the first 3 seasons of characters for now and doing the rest later

Spoiler: Goomba

Upgrade them to Star level for taking a swipe from the Angry Sun I calculated the KE of the thwomp slamming the Koopa, which would give the Goomba and Koopa an AP value. The shoe granting "higher range" is weird considering it's still effectively a melee weapon, the Goomba just has better mobility with it

Spoiler: Koopa

Like with the Goomba, I calculated the thwomp feat, but other than that this one's all good

Spoiler: Raphael

The "higher with piercing damage" isn't really necessary, especially when stabbing Donatello is listed as reasoning for his 9-C stats. (It's also worded weirdly; "repeatedly stabbed Donatello multiple times") And he's got Martial Arts even though he doesn't display any real feats of unarmed combat in the animation. Also blocked video L. This profile also starts the common problem with these profiles of overblown stamina. Fighting for a few minutes should only be Athletic stamina

Spoiler: Yoshi

At no point in the animation does Yoshi display the ability to throw eggs 10+ meters, both his weaknesses are also strange, Yoshi running from Riptor is listed as a sign of cowardice even though Yoshi does this right after getting combo'd and Riptor face-tanking all his eggs and brutalizing a newborn, running away is pretty reasonable, and his egg form breaking if damaged enough is a "will die if punched too hard" level weakness. Summoning in this case also just isn't an ability. Paraphrasing Fujiwara from one of her GoW threads, sex and childbirth aren't abilities. In this case Yoshi using his eggs as projectile weapons would be unconventional natural weaponry, but said eggs hatching into babies wouldn't be an ability. Yoshi should get either limited Flight or Mid-Air jump mobility, since we see him use the flutter jump in the animation, and I calculated Yoshi throwing the large egg, which would upgrade his AP to Wall level and his LS to Class 10

Spoiler: Riptor

I'm unsure of Riptor having Above Average LS for sending Yoshi flying with a strike, but I wouldn't mind too much if it stayed since I'm unsure about removing it in the first place. Riptor should also be upgraded to Wall level scaling to Yoshi (Though she wouldn't scale in LS, since she doesn't have any showings of being comparable in that regard, staggering someone and knocking them back with strikes doesn't mean you scale to them in LS)

Spoiler: Felicia

I think scaling Felicia to Taokaka slashing her in half is a little strange, Ki/energy manip is a no-go, as nothing in the animation itself implies that the sand she's kicking up is ki-enhanced. Superhuman speed is also iffy, she's being scaled to Taokaka, who then presumably gets her Superhuman speed for blitzing Felicia. Like with Raphael the stamina should be downgraded to Athletic, she takes attacks that draw blood, but nothing that leaves injuries severe enough to warrant a superhuman stamina rating

Spoiler: Taokaka

Like with Raphael, she's given a "higher with piercing damage" even though all her instances of harming Felicia are with her claws/with piercing damage, her cutting Felicia in half also seems to be done with a special attack/technique (Especially since it one-shots Felicia, who Taokaka was just fighting fairly evenly) and shouldn't scale to her base stats, she should still be 9-C for being able to knock Felecia into the air, but her base stats shouldn't scale to cutting people in half

Spoiler: Sonic (2011)

Man of course the Sonic profile is the first I have a bunch of issues with

While stat amping for speed is fine, the animation itself doesn't have anything to suggest the spin dash also boosts power, so Damage Boost should go, I don't remember Sonic actually using the homing attack in the fight, so that shouldn't be there either, ESP should probably be replaced with Enhanced Senses, since we the animation doesn't suggest Sonic can "see" while spin dashing, but he can still accurately navigate in combat while using it. The fire shield doesn't have any showings of fire manipulation, and going off just the animation is just a red forcefield, same with the thunder shield's electricity manip and the bubble shield's water manip. The thunder shield also doesn't have any feats of resisting electricity in the animation, and Super Sonic doesn't have anything that would suggest he's invulnerable from the animation itself. Which would just suggest that Super Sonic is stronger than his base form, which his stats even note. Speaking of the stats, Mario enveloping himself in fire is treated as a feat of speed even though he performed the feat with a fire flower, which grants Fire Manipulation, Sonic's speed should probably just be Superhuman (Unless someone calcs one of his other feats from the episode) Sonic shouldn't scale to Mario in LS, knocking him back with a kick wouldn't suggest that, and his speed section claims Super Sonic "blitzed Mega Mario," which just didn't happen, Mario face tanks Super Sonic's barrage and then connects the one attack he throws, he wasn't getting blitzed he was just not attacking. His Superhuman stamina should be downgraded to Athletic (It says he ran at top speed "for extended periods" then links him running for, like, 10 seconds tops) and none of his listed intelligence feats suggest Above Average intelligence, his usage of shields was pretty basic (Used the fire shield when being attacked with fire, used the electricity shield to boost his speed, and used the bubble shield when he was at risk of drowning, all of these are pretty basic and straightforward usages)

Spoiler: Batman (vs Spider-Man)

Batman doesn't really "manipulate" the bats he summons in any way; he just summons them and then they all fly past Spiderman, with a few happening to graze him, no source for his Superhuman LS, and he doesn't scale in this regard to Spiderman, the bolas scaling is fine, but Batman himself shouldn't, scaling his batarang throwing speed to peak human knife throwing speed feels strange to me but it's not that big of a deal. His intelligence doesn't have any reasoning for being Above Average. And again, downgrade his stamina to Athletic

Spoiler: Spider-Man

Downgrade stamina to Athletic take a shot every time I say to downgrade stamina trapping Bruce with webs isn't exactly a stellar feat of intelligence, if anything it's pretty straightforward, the profile says he could "figure out" how to trap him like he didn't just shoot a bunch of webs in Batman's direction

Spoiler: Goku (2013/2015)

His heat resistance should note that he was only briefly exposed to the Earth's core before getting obliterated by Superman's IMP. His Subsonic+ speed in base has no source beyond scaling to an MHS guy. His LS shouldn't scale to Superman, not only does he just not have showings of matching him in LS, but the entire point of the first 2 GvS was how Goku never stood a chance, the description says he should scale to "that Superman," but gives no reason for it. And kick the stamina down to Athletic. Being a master at martial arts is only Above Average Intelligence at best. His SS4 kamehameha should be Attack speed, not combat speed, and the claim that it traveled all the way to the Sun is iffy, we see it blast towards the Sun, but it just disperses without us being able to tell if it actually got all the way there

Spoiler: Superman (2013/2015)

Superman hearing Goku on the Nimbus isn't really a feat of Enhanced Senses, since we don't know how close Goku got before Superman heard him, he can keep ES through X-Ray/Microscopic vision though. Status Efffect Inducement resistance should also be removed since Goku's electric attack doesn't have any showings of inducing any kind of status effect, since its only feat was barely doing anything to Superman. The description of the infinite mass punch has another instance of strange wording. ("Destroyed the entirety of Earth completely") His stats are generally fine, except for his sun dipped speed, which for some reason is being scaled to SS4 Goku's kamehameha via blitzing him, even though Goku in the animations hasn't shown to scale in reaction speed to his ki attacks' speed (Superman flies back to Earth from the Sun in the animation in a few seconds, just use that for his speed) and finally, you know the drill, downgrade stamina, not only are the feats listed just not Superhuman, (Fighting for a few minutes and searching an area of unknown size over an unknown amount of time) but Superman was also constantly being charged by the Sun through the fight, (and after not even a minute of fighting SS4 Goku with clouds blocking the Sun, Superman outright says he "didn't have much left in him" and had to fly up to recharge) and his search for the Dragon Balls. Finally, his durability for his sun-dipped state should note that the clash he's scaling to knocked him out of the form and left him unconscious, the current description implies he completely no-sold it

Spoiler: Fox McCloud

The cyborgization links a scan from the analysis, which goes against the entire premise of these profiles. The calc for destroying Bucky's ship (Which for some reason is described on Fox's profile as "sinking it") doesn't work since the explosion happens in space, and while the ability can stay thanks to charged shots and smart bombs, the part of blowing up Bucky's ship should be removed from Explosion Manip, that's like giving action movie guns explosion manipulation for blowing up cars when you shoot them. Since Fox's legs are metal prosthetics, that would also mean his stamina should be downgraded. His stamina also says he was "crushed" twice by Bucky when he just got slammed into the ground

Spoiler: Bucky O'Hare

Just like with Fox's profile, Bucky's LS claims that he "crushed Fox," when he just slammed him into the ground. His stamina lists "jumping multiple times" as evidence for his Superhuman rating, which is definitely one of the takes of all time. Like always, bring it down to Athletic

Spoiler: Tails

His speed section claims he "should be faster than the poltergust's launch speed" yet gives no reasoning for this claim, it also scales his LS to the force the poltergust produces with its expulsion due to Tails resisting its suction, also carrying someone doesn't scale you to their LS, Tails should just be scaled to the weight of a single one of his bombs, since he throws them one at a time. His intelligence rating claims he invented the devices he uses throughout the fight, which we don't have evidence for in the animation itself. He also doesn't really show himself to be a "skilled strategist" throughout the fight, and just using gadgets isn't evidence of Genius intelligence, like with Sonic, nuke the Damage Boost and change ESP to Enhanced Senses, though in this fight Tails only ever uses the spin dash to charge in a straight line

Spoiler: Luigi

Goodnight sweet prince

Luigi displays pretty good agility throughout the fight, such as fighting Tails and avoiding several of his gadgets in midair, and can seemingly float by twirling his arms, and as such he should have Acrobatics and Restricted Flight, downgrade stamina to Athletic like always. Luigi is also being scaled above his poltergust's launch speed with the only reasoning being "he should be faster"

Spoiler: Captain America

Superhuman Speed and LS are both no good, the scene that supposedly shows Cap's "inhuman speed" is just running a short distance in a timeframe which would probably only get average human results, and his LS is being scaled to Batman knocking him around with kicks which wouldn't be LS, but other than that it's all good, it's even accurate with the stamina

Spoiler: Batman (vs Captain America)

Like with Cap, the speed and LS should be downgraded, but it's all good besides that (And I already covered stats like stamina in the first Batman section)

Spoiler: Deadpool (Vs Deathstroke)

His Regen Negation should have a level listed, Deathstroke doesn't have a profile, but I think regenerating from being stabbed through the stomach would be High-Low, none of his listed speed feats are Subsonic (Running up a falling Truck should only be Superhuman) and the "higher with teleportation belt" isn't Deadpool being faster with it, it's just reaction speed + spamming teleportation, as for dodging bullets, Deadpool was pretty far every from Deathstroke every time so it probably wouldn't get very high results, and Deadpool teleporting to dodge means he wouldn't be moving for said dodges, so the results would only be perception speed. Cloth Manip should also just be toon force

Spoiler: Kirby

Kirby's stats in his hypernova form shouldn't by default scale to Buu's planet burst, and instead should be "up to High 6-A with attack reflection," since reflecting Buu's attack was the only thing the form did in the fight, being adept in martial arts and with weapons also isn't enough for a gifted rating, and parrying attacks (Though really Kirby just blocked them) is just an application of said previously mentioned martial arts, at best his combat intelligence should be Above Average. And stamina, downgrade it to athletic

Spoiler: Majin Buu

Why doesn't Kid Buu have any form of High 6-A tiering for the attack he created? Yeah, the attack was reflected by Kirby when it blasted into the Sun, but it's still Buu's attack, Kirby just reflected it, I can see not scaling its speed going to the Sun to Buu's attack speed, but AP should scale. And I'm not suggesting Kid Buu be High 6-A all around, Kid Buu would stay 8-C, he's just also have "High 6-A with planet burst"

Buu's attacks/techniques section also lists healing, despite him not using it in the animation, and lists feats from the canon series

Spoiler: Iron Man (vs Lex Luthor)

Tony being able to summon the endo-sym armor being listed as an ability under the endo-sym armor's tab is strange, move that to Tony's standard tab. There also isn't any evidence that Tony absorbing the energy from Lex's suit "massively increased his power," he destroys Lex's suit afterwards, but like the profile notes, he absorbed its energy beforehand, so of course he easily overpowered it, because of that the "far higher with endo-sym" should be changed to just "higher," yeah he's stronger than the warsuit but he's not "easily destroy it" levels and only did so after draining its energy

Spoiler: Beast

Stamina. Downgrade it to Athletic. Everything else is fine

Spoiler: Goliath

Also fine everywhere except stamina

Spoiler: Solid Snake

For some reason Snake stabbing through the bottom of Sam's jaw is being compared to the high end of breaking a bone, even though that high end is for breaking a bone parallel to the length of the bone, which stabbing through a skull just isn't comparable to. Just change it to use the low end instead and remove the +. Snake also has a "higher with weaponry" even though this skull stab was with his weaponry. Also more weird wording here with his speed "easily dodged many bullets from an SMG easily" did it so easily you had to say it twice and in the scene he's not really dodging the bullets (Besides maybe the first few) but rather is running to avoid Sam's aim (Basically he's aim-dodging)

Spoiler: Knuckles

The calc for his 8-B AP for some reason assumes Knuckles pulverized the entire crater that DK fell into rather than just cutting the ground around him, which then caused the ground which DK loosened from his earlier attacks to collapse. Also 7-C scaling to the clap that splattered him. Downgrade his stamina to athletic

Spoiler: Tracer

Her pulse pistols have no reason to be comparable to auto mag pistols specifically, her stamina describes the blow she took from Scout's bat as "fatal" even though we don't see said lethal damage nor was the strike implied to have dealt lethal damage

Spoiler: Scout

His ability to drink Bonk despite his own statement of it "liquifying your esophagus" should probably count for something, also his range with his guns is hundreds of meters despite the effective range of the guns he uses only being up to 50 meters

 

[MintyBoi1]

I’ll just try going over your issues with my profiles since I’m not too interested in looking at all the others.

Spoiler: Felicia

I think scaling Felicia to Taokaka slashing her in half is a little strange, Ki/energy manip is a no-go, as nothing in the animation itself implies that the sand she's kicking up is ki-enhanced. Superhuman speed is also iffy, she's being scaled to Taokaka, who then presumably gets her Superhuman speed for blitzing Felicia. Like with Raphael the stamina should be downgraded to Athletic, she takes attacks that draw blood, but nothing that leaves injuries severe enough to warrant a superhuman stamina rating

Spoiler: Taokaka

Like with Raphael, she's given a "higher with piercing damage" even though all her instances of harming Felicia are with her claws/with piercing damage, her cutting Felicia in half also seems to be done with a special attack/technique (Especially since it one-shots Felicia, who Taokaka was just fighting fairly evenly) and shouldn't scale to her base stats, she should still be 9-C for being able to knock Felecia into the air, but her base stats shouldn't scale to cutting people in half

Spoiler: Sonic (2011)

Man of course the Sonic profile is the first I have a bunch of issues with

While stat amping for speed is fine, the animation itself doesn't have anything to suggest the spin dash also boosts power, so Damage Boost should go, I don't remember Sonic actually using the homing attack in the fight, so that shouldn't be there either, ESP should probably be replaced with Enhanced Senses, since we the animation doesn't suggest Sonic can "see" while spin dashing, but he can still accurately navigate in combat while using it. The fire shield doesn't have any showings of fire manipulation, and going off just the animation is just a red forcefield, same with the thunder shield's electricity manip and the bubble shield's water manip. The thunder shield also doesn't have any feats of resisting electricity in the animation, and Super Sonic doesn't have anything that would suggest he's invulnerable from the animation itself. Which would just suggest that Super Sonic is stronger than his base form, which his stats even note. Speaking of the stats, Mario enveloping himself in fire is treated as a feat of speed even though he performed the feat with a fire flower, which grants Fire Manipulation, Sonic's speed should probably just be Superhuman (Unless someone calcs one of his other feats from the episode) Sonic shouldn't scale to Mario in LS, knocking him back with a kick wouldn't suggest that, and his speed section claims Super Sonic "blitzed Mega Mario," which just didn't happen, Mario face tanks Super Sonic's barrage and then connects the one attack he throws, he wasn't getting blitzed he was just not attacking. His Superhuman stamina should be downgraded to Athletic (It says he ran at top speed "for extended periods" then links him running for, like, 10 seconds tops) and none of his listed intelligence feats suggest Above Average intelligence, his usage of shields was pretty basic (Used the fire shield when being attacked with fire, used the electricity shield to boost his speed, and used the bubble shield when he was at risk of drowning, all of these are pretty basic and straightforward usages)

Spoiler: Fox McCloud

The cyborgization links a scan from the analysis, which goes against the entire premise of these profiles. The calc for destroying Bucky's ship (Which for some reason is described on Fox's profile as "sinking it") doesn't work since the explosion happens in space, and while the ability can stay thanks to charged shots and smart bombs, the part of blowing up Bucky's ship should be removed from Explosion Manip, that's like giving action movie guns explosion manipulation for blowing up cars when you shoot them. Since Fox's legs are metal prosthetics, that would also mean his stamina should be downgraded. His stamina also says he was "crushed" twice by Bucky when he just got slammed into the ground

Spoiler: Bucky O'Hare

Just like with Fox's profile, Bucky's LS claims that he "crushed Fox," when he just slammed him into the ground. His stamina lists "jumping multiple times" as evidence for his Superhuman rating, which is definitely one of the takes of all time. Like always, bring it down to Athletic

Spoiler: Tails

His speed section claims he "should be faster than the poltergust's launch speed" yet gives no reasoning for this claim, it also scales his LS to the force the poltergust produces with its expulsion due to Tails resisting its suction, also carrying someone doesn't scale you to their LS, Tails should just be scaled to the weight of a single one of his bombs, since he throws them one at a time. His intelligence rating claims he invented the devices he uses throughout the fight, which we don't have evidence for in the animation itself. He also doesn't really show himself to be a "skilled strategist" throughout the fight, and just using gadgets isn't evidence of Genius intelligence, like with Sonic, nuke the Damage Boost and change ESP to Enhanced Senses, though in this fight Tails only ever uses the spin dash to charge in a straight line

Spoiler: Kirby

Kirby's stats in his hypernova form shouldn't by default scale to Buu's planet burst, and instead should be "up to High 6-A with attack reflection," since reflecting Buu's attack was the only thing the form did in the fight, being adept in martial arts and with weapons also isn't enough for a gifted rating, and parrying attacks (Though really Kirby just blocked them) is just an application of said previously mentioned martial arts, at best his combat intelligence should be Above Average. And stamina, downgrade it to athletic

Spoiler: Tracer

Her pulse pistols have no reason to be comparable to auto mag pistols specifically, her stamina describes the blow she took from Scout's bat as "fatal" even though we don't see said lethal damage nor was the strike implied to have dealt lethal damage

Spoiler: Felicia

Felicia was shown taking multiple attacks from Taokaka’s claws. Also I think the speed feat is more outpacing than blitzing since Felicia could still perceive Tao’s movements. And the sand not only spawns without a source but is glowing blue, so I think it’s fair to match it with the canon move. Her stamina was also for the amount of acrobatics Felicia performed. I don’t think anybody human could swing off someone and still be ready to go. And Tao has no shown stat amps, so even if her final attack was a special, it shouldn’t be too much higher than her base stats. Like Ryu isn’t put higher with Metsu Hadouken on his vs profile even though he likely is.

Spoiler: Sonic

Removing Damage boost seems pretty fine, though Sonic’s constant rotation might be good enough justification considering he completely dug into Mario who of course was relative to him. Sonic does use the Homing Attack, it’s just very short lived. You can find it in the description on the DB wiki or in the video around 6:13. The ESP just seems more fitting since I doubt Sonic is going blind and it lines up better with the actual Spin Dash’s page. The fire shield makes Sonic look like a fireball when he runs then causes an explosion in the collision with Mario’s hammer. The thunder shield is shown as a lightning bolt on the monitor, I also think that’s fine enough for the resistance since lightning on lightning doesn’t really do much iirc. And the bubble shield is shown as an actual bubble just going off appearance and Sonic breathing in it like a fish would water. The speed point is iffy since Mario still did the feat with a slide, suggesting that was somehow needed even with the Fire Flower. Sonic is shown matching Mario even with his hammer, so I think him being relative in LS also works since he wasn’t crushed even when dashing right into the hammer. Super Sonic tanks Mario’s attacks with no damage like in games and attacks Mega Mario multiple times before he even moves once. You’re forgetting Sonic also ran to blitz Mario and ran up the Bob-Omb mountain before that while sustaining damage from someone relative to himself. Having a good battle instinct on top of being a talented acrobat should give Sonic AA in my opinion. There’s also him waiting out Mario’s transformation then striking him the moment he got tired.

Spoiler: Fox

Linking the part they say Fox has metal legs was just to cement that they actually said that. It’s shown in the animation Fox not only shakes off losing the legs with no blood loss, but also replaces them with Slippy’s which I don’t think you can do with normal fox and toad legs. Fox is shown destroying the Righteous Indignation with a smart bomb, also stated on the wiki. I considered downgrading Fox’s stamina, but he still did multiple high speed dashes and took hits from Bucky who’s implied physically stronger, all without faltering or taking a break once. Him having his legs blown off, even if they’re artificial, was a heavy blow he immediately recovered from as well. And the word choices were mainly for variety and flair. Fox was forced to the ground and stomped on, that’s kinda being crushed still.

Spoiler: Bucky

Again, crushed is slight hyperbole but still fitting. People say they crushed someone for less than possibly collapsing their lungs. And jumping still takes exerting great force. Bucky did that 3 times in a row like it was nothing as well as taking being kicked by metal multiple times and endured his ship crashing easily which nobody, even peak human could do. There’s nothing implying the landing was safe and the Righteous Indignation was a fiery wreck.

Spoiler: Tails

Tails is shown being faster than everything Luigi has, including running away from the Poltergust trying to suck him in. I don’t think there’s a massive gap because launching and sucking speed. Same for LS. Should note Tails still has Luigi carried while he had his hammer. It seems fair to assume Tails built his stuff considering how much of it he has on him and how well he uses them. It’s not like Fox where it’s standard gear, Tails has his arm cannon which he just summons and his bots which also suggest he made some of his stuff since they’re specific to Tails, including size. I think the listed feats in intelligence are good enough to say Tails is a skilled strategist. This time the Spin Dash is actually shown charging so DB should definitely stay. And ESP, same as before, it’d be weird if they couldn’t see while using one of their main moves and nothing suggests they can’t.

Spoiler: Kirby

High 6-A Buu was discussed. I don’t entirely know if it’s right not including it but as Ednaxel said, “Kid Buu when he first threw the energy ball and Kirby firing it back would have to be at different speeds.” Considering the amount of stuff Kirby quickly adapts to such as wielding a sword/hammer which both take practice and then perfectly blocking attacks from a flying opponent which also takes skill, Gifted battle IQ seems fine. His whole thing is using other people’s abilities to beat them. I don’t think athletic is enough to justify fighting two separate people for extended periods while taking strong attacks from both.

Spoiler: Tracer

Tracer’s pistols seem semi automatic and the Auto Mags also look somewhat similar, so they’re about the best comparison. I doubt her bullets are slower than normal ones. And being hit by a metal bat hard enough to crash through barrels and being left on the ground, bloody and beaten, seems pretty fatal to me.

 

[Soupywolf5]

I’ll just try going over your issues with my profiles since I’m not too interested in looking at all the others.

Spoiler: Felicia

Felicia was shown taking multiple attacks from Taokaka’s claws. Also I think the speed feat is more outpacing than blitzing since Felicia could still perceive Tao’s movements. And the sand not only spawns without a source but is glowing blue, so I think it’s fair to match it with the canon move. Her stamina was also for the amount of acrobatics Felicia performed. I don’t think anybody human could swing off someone and still be ready to go. And Tao has no shown stat amps, so even if her final attack was a special, it shouldn’t be too much higher than her base stats. Like Ryu isn’t put higher with Metsu Hadouken on his vs profile even though he likely is.

Spoiler: Sonic

Damage boost seems pretty fine, though Sonic’s constant rotation might be good enough justification considering he completely dug into Mario who of course was relative to him. Sonic does use the Homing Attack, it’s just very short lived. You can find it in the description on the DB wiki for in the video around 6:13. The ESP just seems more fitting since I doubt Sonic is going blind and it lines up better with the actual Spin Dash’s page. The fire shield makes Sonic look like a fireball when he runs then causes an explosion in the collision with Mario’s hammer. The thunder shield is shown as a lightning bolt on the monitor, I also think that’s fine enough for the resistance since lightning on lightning doesn’t really do much iirc. And the bubble shield is shown as an actual bubble just going off appearance and Sonic breathing in it like a fish would water. The speed point is iffy since Mario still did the feat with a slide, suggesting that was somehow needed even with the Fire Flower. Sonic is shown matching Mario even with his hammer, so I think him being relative in LS also works since he wasn’t crushed even when dashing right into the hammer. Super Sonic tanks Mario’s attacks with no damage like in games and attacks Mega Mario multiple times before he even moves once. You’re forgetting Sonic also ran to blitz Mario and ran up the Bob-Omb mountain before that while sustaining damage from someone relative to himself. Having a good battle instinct on top of being a talented acrobat should give Sonic AA in my opinion. There’s also him waiting out Mario’s transformation then striking him the moment he got tired.

Spoiler: Fox

Linking the part they say Fox has metal legs was just to cement that they actually said that. It’s shown in the animation Fox not only shakes off losing the legs with no blood loss, but also replaces them with Slippy’s which I don’t think you can do with normal fox and toad legs. Fox is shown destroying the Righteous Indignation with a smart bomb, also stated on the wiki. I considered downgrading Fox’s stamina, but he still did multiple high speed dashes and took hits from Bucky who’s implied physically stronger, all without faltering or taking a break once. Him having his legs blown off, even if they’re artificial, was a heavy blow he immediately recovered from as well. And the word choices were mainly for variety and flair. Fox was forced to the ground and stomped on, that’s kinda being crushed still.

Spoiler: Bucky

Again, crushed is slight hyperbole but still fitting. People say they crushed someone for less than possibly collapsing their lungs. And jumping still takes exerting great force. Bucky did that 3 times in a row like it was nothing as well as taking being kicked by metal multiple times and endured his ship crashing easily which nobody, even peak human could do. There’s nothing implying the landing was safe and the Righteous Indignation was a fiery wreck.

Spoiler: Tails

Tails is shown being faster than everything Luigi has, including running away from the Poltergust trying to suck him in. I don’t think there’s a massive gap because launching and sucking speed. Same for LS. Should note Tails still has Luigi carried while he had his hammer. It seems fair to assume Tails built his stuff considering how much of it he has on him and how well he uses them. It’s not like Fox where it’s standard gear, Tails has his arm cannon which he just summons and his bots which also suggest he made some of his stuff since they’re specific to Tails, including size. I think the listed feats in intelligence are good enough to say Tails is a skilled strategist. This time the Spin Dash is actually shown charging so DB should definitely stay. And ESP, same as before, it’d be weird if they couldn’t see while using one of their main moves and nothing suggests they can’t.

Spoiler: Kirby

High 6-A Buu was discussed. I don’t entirely know if it’s right not including it but as Ednaxel said, “Kid Buu when he first threw the energy ball and Kirby firing it back would have to be at different speeds.” Considering the amount of stuff Kirby quickly adapts to such as wielding a sword/hammer which both take practice and then perfectly blocking attacks from a flying opponent which also takes skill, Gifted battle IQ seems fine. His whole thing is using other people’s abilities to beat them. I don’t think athletic is enough to justify fighting two separate people for extended periods while taking strong attacks from both.

Spoiler: Tracer

Tracer’s pistols seem semi automatic and the Auto Mags also look somewhat similar, so they’re about the best comparison. I doubt her bullets are slower than normal ones. And being hit by a metal bat hard enough to crash through barrels and being left on the ground, bloody and beaten, seems pretty fatal to me.

Spoiler: Felicia

Yes, I'm aware, that's why her and Taokaka scale to each other and why Taokaka's finisher should be higher than her normal stats, since it one-shot her while Taokaka's other attacks didn't. Taokaka's speed section says she could attack Felicia "before she could react," which definitely sounds like it's implying she was blitzing. The sand thing could just be a weird style choice, but regardless, at best it would only be energy manip, the animation doesn't do anything to indicate it was amped by ki. "No shown stat amps" except where she one-shots the character she was just fighting evenly. As for stamina, real acrobats absolutely do that, it in no way requires Superhuman stamina

Spoiler: Sonic

Damage Boost is a pretty specific ability, and the justification of killing Mario can just be explained by its speed amping/Sonic's natural weaponry (Hitting more times per second to lead to more damage over a period of time, or just cutting him with his quills, neither of which would grant the specific ability Damage Boost) if the homing attack is the part I'm thinking of, then there's no way to know if that was an actual homing attack or Sonic just hitting Mario with a spin dash, the DB wiki isn't a reliable source. Saying Sonic can see is completely unsupported when all we know is he can navigate while spin dashing, (And just saying that you doubt he's blind while using it isn't an argument) with nothing suggesting that he can explicitly see, the spin dash page on the vs wiki (Which I assume is what you're referring to) doesn't matter, we don't care what it says, what we care about is what it does in the DB animation. Yes, the shields look like different elements, but they don't really have any properties of those elements aside from appearance, for the fire shield's explosion, that's also not fire manip, I could maybe see something like "limited explosion manip" noting that it explodes when destroyed, but that's still not fire manip, Sonic breathing in the bubble is why he has underwater breathing, it's not a source for water manip. The lightning shield's icon being a lightning bolt is why it's called the lightning shield, it still doesn't have any showings of electricity manipulation. Mario using fire manipulation in conjunction with a slide in no way indicates the slide was "needed" to create the fire, he spins while enveloping his hands in fire, was the spin necessary for that fire too? Sonic doesn't "match Mario" in a way that would allow him to scale in LS, he takes attacks from him and can hurt him, but at no point does he physically match him in some sustained way that would indicate comparable LS. Not being one-shot doesn't make you comparable to someone in LS either. Sure he takes a bunch of attacks from Mario without damage, but on its own that'd just be stat amping, the canon games mean nothing here, these profiles are based of DB's animations and DB's animations alone, and the most reasonable thing to conclude from the animation, without any info/knowledge from sources outside of it, is that Super Sonic is physically vastly superior to his base form, not that he's got invulnerability. Him attacking Mega Mario multiple times also just isn't blitzing him, Mario makes no indication that he's actually being outpaced rather than just choosing to face tank Sonic's attacks, and the one attack he does throw connects, if Sonic was blitzing Mario to the point of being able to rush him before he can move, Mario would have never been able to actually hit him, but the one time he tries he succeeds. Yeah, Sonic was outpacing him only slightly, then used one of his speed amping shields to go faster, that's just basic strategy, nothing that would indicate AA intelligence, nor is waiting out the transformation, which he only does against Mega Mario, his super form wears off meanwhile Mario's still mega, therefore he runs away because otherwise he's screwed, then while chasing him the form runs out and Sonic realizes this and finishes him off, which, again, isn't indication of Sonic possessing above average intelligence, he ran away to avoid getting killed then realized he had an opening and took it

Spoiler: Fox

Yeah, but all of the profiles have a note that they're not using the analyses, and then one of Fox's first abilities goes and links the analysis that his profile says it's not using. Again, the wiki isn't a source we should be using for these. I don't think you realize just how much "superhuman" stamina requires, dashing a few times and taking a few hits are at best athletic, prosthetic limbs are both easy to remove and losing them just isn't a feat for stamina in any way, they don't cause pain when taken off, they don't leave any damage, etc. Fox getting his artificial limbs knocked off just isn't a showing of stamina. I could understand if the wording was something like "crushed into the ground," but the profile just says crushed

Spoiler: Bucky

You'd need to prove that Fox actually took damage as severe as his lungs being crushed from Bucky's stomps, because otherwise they're just a few attacks that didn't leave any notable damage. Jumping isn't anywhere near as herculean of a task as you're making it sound, Bucky being able to jump higher than a human wouldn't make it harder for him either, it just means he's physically stronger and/or more athletic than a human, being hit by metal is just durability, Fox's flesh and blood arms based off his stats are harder than any real metal. "Endured his ship crashing easily which nobody, even peak human could do" yeah, 'cause they'd be turned into a fine red mist on impact. Bucky wasn't damaged by the crash so this would again just be a feat of durability.

Spoiler: Tails

Tails is shown outpacing Luigi's physical speed, both instances of Luigi trying to suck Tails up with the poltergust, he was being overpowered and was losing the struggle with it and needed to use his gadgets to escape. Cool that you don't think there's a major difference, but you'd need to prove that's the case, and the blow just has far better showings than the succ. Sure, Tails carrying Luigi while he's holding the hammer would let him scale to the weight of the hammer, but I'm pretty sure the weight of a single bombs is greater than it anyway, so it doesn't matter. No, we can't just assume Tails built all his gear since he has a bunch of it, unless we're planning on upgrading the intelligence of every character with equipment because "they have it so they built it." Tails being able to use his equipment well doesn't mean he made it either. Luigi uses his hammer and poltergust well and just pulls them out of nowhere, that doesn't mean he made either. "This time the Spin Dash is actually shown charging so DB should definitely stay" no, no it can't, said charging wasn't shown boosting the attack's actual power, speed amping? Sure, it's clearly faster than his normal movement, but it isn't shown boosting his strength in any way. Nothing suggests they can see, you're the one claiming they can see despite being curled into a ball which obscures their eyes, you'd need to prove that.

Spoiler: Kirby

Yeah, I agree Buu's attack speed shouldn't scale to the reflected planet burst, but the High 6-A AP had nothing to do with its speed. And Hypernova Kirby has attack reflection, not attack reflection + damage boosting, you'd need to prove that Hypernova Kirby made the planet burst stronger when he spat it back at Buu. Kirby's "whole thing" in his canon games does not matter here, from the animation itself, all we know about Kirby is he's somewhat skilled with the use of a hammer and sword, and that he's got a different form where he does martial arts. (Which is another thing, since he's only got martial arts listed in his fighter form, feats done in that form shouldn't be scales to his base form's combat intelligence) I'm not denying he's skilled, but he's not "Gifted battle intelligence" skilled, "strong attacks" is subjective, he isn't taking actual major damage from either, both are hurting him, but they're not dealing major damage and again, Superhuman stamina is way higher than you seem to think it is (And towards the beginning of his fight with Kid Buu, we outright see that Kirby's panting and tired, then he's seemingly restored after succing the Knuckle Joe)

Spoiler: Tracer

Saying they "seem similar" doesn't mean that Tracer's pistols should fire at the same speed as them. Again, saying "I doubt it" isn't an argument, especially when Tracer's "bullets" just don't have showings of being bullet speed (You might be able to calc their speed somehow, but you'd probably also end up with a Star Wars blaster situation) Again describing the force of the hit is just durability, Tracer's 9-A stats even come from scaling to this impact (Also the profile should probably note that the feat she's scaling to left her beaten and bloody) yeah she's pretty hurt, but again there's nothing actually fatal from what we can tell, and even if this impact did, say, break some ribs, pierce a lung, fracture her spine. Tracer doesn't do anything afterwards, she's crippled entirely and can barely move, then a few seconds later spouts a one-liner and reverses time to undo the damage, if she had actually fought after sustaining that damage, then I'd get a higher stamina rating, but all she's got is staying conscious for a little while after taking an unknown but maybe serious amount of damage. Also, one more thing I just noticed, since Tracer's bullet dodge only has a time component and no distance, it'd only scale to perception speed, not reaction speed

 

[MintyBoi1]

Spoiler: Felicia

Yes, I'm aware, that's why her and Taokaka scale to each other and why Taokaka's finisher should be higher than her normal stats, since it one-shot her while Taokaka's other attacks didn't. Taokaka's speed section says she could attack Felicia "before she could react," which definitely sounds like it's implying she was blitzing. The sand thing could just be a weird style choice, but regardless, at best it would only be energy manip, the animation doesn't do anything to indicate it was amped by ki. "No shown stat amps" except where she one-shots the character she was just fighting evenly. As for stamina, real acrobats absolutely do that, it in no way requires Superhuman stamina

Spoiler: Sonic

Damage Boost is a pretty specific ability, and the justification of killing Mario can just be explained by its speed amping/Sonic's natural weaponry (Hitting more times per second to lead to more damage over a period of time, or just cutting him with his quills, neither of which would grant the specific ability Damage Boost) if the homing attack is the part I'm thinking of, then there's no way to know if that was an actual homing attack or Sonic just hitting Mario with a spin dash, the DB wiki isn't a reliable source. Saying Sonic can see is completely unsupported when all we know is he can navigate while spin dashing, (And just saying that you doubt he's blind while using it isn't an argument) with nothing suggesting that he can explicitly see, the spin dash page on the vs wiki (Which I assume is what you're referring to) doesn't matter, we don't care what it says, what we care about is what it does in the DB animation. Yes, the shields look like different elements, but they don't really have any properties of those elements aside from appearance, for the fire shield's explosion, that's also not fire manip, I could maybe see something like "limited explosion manip" noting that it explodes when destroyed, but that's still not fire manip, Sonic breathing in the bubble is why he has underwater breathing, it's not a source for water manip. The lightning shield's icon being a lightning bolt is why it's called the lightning shield, it still doesn't have any showings of electricity manipulation. Mario using fire manipulation in conjunction with a slide in no way indicates the slide was "needed" to create the fire, he spins while enveloping his hands in fire, was the spin necessary for that fire too? Sonic doesn't "match Mario" in a way that would allow him to scale in LS, he takes attacks from him and can hurt him, but at no point does he physically match him in some sustained way that would indicate comparable LS. Not being one-shot doesn't make you comparable to someone in LS either. Sure he takes a bunch of attacks from Mario without damage, but on its own that'd just be stat amping, the canon games mean nothing here, these profiles are based of DB's animations and DB's animations alone, and the most reasonable thing to conclude from the animation, without any info/knowledge from sources outside of it, is that Super Sonic is physically vastly superior to his base form, not that he's got invulnerability. Him attacking Mega Mario multiple times also just isn't blitzing him, Mario makes no indication that he's actually being outpaced rather than just choosing to face tank Sonic's attacks, and the one attack he does throw connects, if Sonic was blitzing Mario to the point of being able to rush him before he can move, Mario would have never been able to actually hit him, but the one time he tries he succeeds. Yeah, Sonic was outpacing him only slightly, then used one of his speed amping shields to go faster, that's just basic strategy, nothing that would indicate AA intelligence, nor is waiting out the transformation, which he only does against Mega Mario, his super form wears off meanwhile Mario's still mega, therefore he runs away because otherwise he's screwed, then while chasing him the form runs out and Sonic realizes this and finishes him off, which, again, isn't indication of Sonic possessing above average intelligence, he ran away to avoid getting killed then realized he had an opening and took it

Spoiler: Fox

Yeah, but all of the profiles have a note that they're not using the analyses, and then one of Fox's first abilities goes and links the analysis that his profile says it's not using. Again, the wiki isn't a source we should be using for these. I don't think you realize just how much "superhuman" stamina requires, dashing a few times and taking a few hits are at best athletic, prosthetic limbs are both easy to remove and losing them just isn't a feat for stamina in any way, they don't cause pain when taken off, they don't leave any damage, etc. Fox getting his artificial limbs knocked off just isn't a showing of stamina. I could understand if the wording was something like "crushed into the ground," but the profile just says crushed

Spoiler: Bucky

You'd need to prove that Fox actually took damage as severe as his lungs being crushed from Bucky's stomps, because otherwise they're just a few attacks that didn't leave any notable damage. Jumping isn't anywhere near as herculean of a task as you're making it sound, Bucky being able to jump higher than a human wouldn't make it harder for him either, it just means he's physically stronger and/or more athletic than a human, being hit by metal is just durability, Fox's flesh and blood arms based off his stats are harder than any real metal. "Endured his ship crashing easily which nobody, even peak human could do" yeah, 'cause they'd be turned into a fine red mist on impact. Bucky wasn't damaged by the crash so this would again just be a feat of durability.

Spoiler: Tails

Tails is shown outpacing Luigi's physical speed, both instances of Luigi trying to suck Tails up with the poltergust, he was being overpowered and was losing the struggle with it and needed to use his gadgets to escape. Cool that you don't think there's a major difference, but you'd need to prove that's the case, and the blow just has far better showings than the succ. Sure, Tails carrying Luigi while he's holding the hammer would let him scale to the weight of the hammer, but I'm pretty sure the weight of a single bombs is greater than it anyway, so it doesn't matter. No, we can't just assume Tails built all his gear since he has a bunch of it, unless we're planning on upgrading the intelligence of every character with equipment because "they have it so they built it." Tails being able to use his equipment well doesn't mean he made it either. Luigi uses his hammer and poltergust well and just pulls them out of nowhere, that doesn't mean he made either. "This time the Spin Dash is actually shown charging so DB should definitely stay" no, no it can't, said charging wasn't shown boosting the attack's actual power, speed amping? Sure, it's clearly faster than his normal movement, but it isn't shown boosting his strength in any way. Nothing suggests they can see, you're the one claiming they can see despite being curled into a ball which obscures their eyes, you'd need to prove that.

Spoiler: Kirby

Yeah, I agree Buu's attack speed shouldn't scale to the reflected planet burst, but the High 6-A AP had nothing to do with its speed. And Hypernova Kirby has attack reflection, not attack reflection + damage boosting, you'd need to prove that Hypernova Kirby made the planet burst stronger when he spat it back at Buu. Kirby's "whole thing" in his canon games does not matter here, from the animation itself, all we know about Kirby is he's somewhat skilled with the use of a hammer and sword, and that he's got a different form where he does martial arts. (Which is another thing, since he's only got martial arts listed in his fighter form, feats done in that form shouldn't be scales to his base form's combat intelligence) I'm not denying he's skilled, but he's not "Gifted battle intelligence" skilled, "strong attacks" is subjective, he isn't taking actual major damage from either, both are hurting him, but they're not dealing major damage and again, Superhuman stamina is way higher than you seem to think it is (And towards the beginning of his fight with Kid Buu, we outright see that Kirby's panting and tired, then he's seemingly restored after succing the Knuckle Joe)

Spoiler: Tracer

Saying they "seem similar" doesn't mean that Tracer's pistols should fire at the same speed as them. Again, saying "I doubt it" isn't an argument, especially when Tracer's "bullets" just don't have showings of being bullet speed (You might be able to calc their speed somehow, but you'd probably also end up with a Star Wars blaster situation) Again describing the force of the hit is just durability, Tracer's 9-A stats even come from scaling to this impact (Also the profile should probably note that the feat she's scaling to left her beaten and bloody) yeah she's pretty hurt, but again there's nothing actually fatal from what we can tell, and even if this impact did, say, break some ribs, pierce a lung, fracture her spine. Tracer doesn't do anything afterwards, she's crippled entirely and can barely move, then a few seconds later spouts a one-liner and reverses time to undo the damage, if she had actually fought after sustaining that damage, then I'd get a higher stamina rating, but all she's got is staying conscious for a little while after taking an unknown but maybe serious amount of damage. Also, one more thing I just noticed, since Tracer's bullet dodge only has a time component and no distance, it'd only scale to perception speed, not reaction speed

Spoiler: Felicia

It was a combo though leading up to Felicia being cut in half. Taokaka couldn’t do that in just one strong hit. I think the speed point is the start of the fight where Taokaka lands a combo on Felicia before she could dodge. But I think a it’s just outpacing considering there’s also a moment where Felicia escapes Tao’s fight mid scuffle. Ki is energy, so clarifying it that way just makes more sense. Do acrobats do that while fighting somebody though? Felicia uses multiple moves requiring great acrobatics like the Rolling Buckler and the Hell Cat without any struggle.

Spoiler: Sonic

I suppose Damage Boost doesn’t have the best justification, but you also have to assume it wasn’t gaining power with each rotation like it does in series. And the Homing Attack is shown with Sonic jumping up to hit Mario which indicates it rather than the Spin Dash. Again, you have to assume he can’t see which would be odd if it at all falls in line with its canon counterpart or is a practical move which it must be considering Sonic used it as a finisher. I don’t think most people watching would assume that. The shields look like their elements and are shown to share their abilities. Again the fire shield lets Sonic do a fiery dash and the bubble shield is just a bubble while the thunder shield surrounds Sonic with visible electricity. I’m just going off the calc section where that’s listed as a speed feat for Mario. Not being crushed under the weight in which Mario swings his hammer seems good to me when considering LS is needed to guard something like that. Mega Mario was also stat amped, not taking any damage implies invulnerability especially when considering Sonic only was threatened because he ran out of Super. I think someone paying attention would take notice that Super Sonic wasn’t harmed and that’s decent grounds for invulnerability. And Mario could’ve just taken notice of the linear path Sonic was taking and hit him that way. He’s a literal giant, he has a better area of effect by default. And Sonic is still shown to be a highly skilled fighter who’s able to adapt on the fly, I consider that above average. Average would be not noticing those chances to use abilities or strike instantly like Sonic does.

Spoiler: Fox

We use the analysis for background details like age and classification. The metal legs link again was for clarification because it’s a fun detail. I don’t want these profiles to just be lifeless when there’s interesting tidbits in them that don’t affect the overall profile. Fox is shown having metal legs in the animation, the link hammers in that DB was confident on that despite clearly being disproved. Also the note says feats are from the fight, Fox’s metal legs aren’t a feat in of themselves. Fox was hit almost directly by a grenade likely above his own durability and had his legs blown off, yet still recovered in seconds even when he was shown taking damage from the altercation. If anything I’d downgrade him to Peak Human for the damage accumulated and energy used.

Spoiler: Bucky

I said possibly, of course Fox didn’t actually take that much damage but he was still coughing up blood because his chest was being stomped on. Bucky also sounds around Peak Human because while yes he’s stronger than an average human, it’d still take him great endurance to shake off things like that. He was clearly being damaged by Fox’s attacks and the grenade he took, yet immediately recovered which seems above Athletic which is just above average pain tolerance. Bucky crash landed on a foreign planet which surely would still be rough on someone with wall level durability considering a car crash is also wall level.

Spoiler: Tails

What suggests a vacuum’s pulling force is different than its expulsion? Pulling and pushing done by the same object should have around the same force. They’re both plain applications of lifting strength. Tails being able to resist the Poltergust’s pull, even while slowed in time should be enough to be considered at least relative. Not to mention he was carrying all the bombs it launched on his person like how Luigi can carry his hammer. I guess the intelligence is a bit weird. Annoying how background info only applies sometimes when Tails is much different than others with gear. Luigi had to do a Star Punch to block the Spin Dash, implying it’s above Tails’ normal output. You’d have to prove the ability is somehow compromising when someone watching would just note it’s a bit weird they’re in a ball and can see.

Spoiler: Kirby

Up to High 6-A with reflection does seem fitting for Hypernova Kirby. Maybe Above Average would be better for intelligence as well since sword and hammer don’t seem to increase Kirby’s combat intuition like Fighter does. I put Kirby at Peak Human though. He seems above Athletic with his acrobatics and pain tolerance, even if he wasn’t bleeding or anything, he endured great amounts of pain and had to adapt to Buu’s vast arsenal.

Spoiler: Tracer

Why would her guns not be comparable to others is the thing. She’s shown relative to Scout and able to avoid his gunfire so her having inferior weapons would hinder her performance since they’d be slower than her own movements. Tracer was shown with great amounts of blood on her, sparks implying the Chronal Accelerator was damaged, and was unable to get back up. What more do you need to consider something fatal? Even staying awake while clearly in that much pain is highly impressive considering the bat and fall might’ve given Tracer a concussion. She still has to activate her abilities, so it’s doing something if not too much. And the distance was calced in Tracer’s bullet dodge.

 

[Diamond_Drone]

Spoiler: Sonic (2011)

Speaking of the stats, Mario enveloping himself in fire is treated as a feat of speed even though he performed the feat with a fire flower, which grants Fire Manipulation, Sonic's speed should probably just be Superhuman (Unless someone calcs one of his other feats from the episode)

Spoiler: Sonic (2011)

If we're not fine with having Supersonic speed by basing it off Fire Mario, I have the feat of Sonic climbing the mountain calced (Subsonic to Subsonic+), but for some reason it wasn't mentioned in the profile itself.

Spoiler: Tails and Luigi

His speed section claims he "should be faster than the poltergust's launch speed" yet gives no reasoning for this claim

Spoiler: Tails and Luigi

Also for the reasoning for Tails and Luigi being faster than the Poltergust, It's because Tails quickly drops from cloud height in a circular motion to grab Luigi and returns to cloud height right after this attack and I was too lazy to calc it. Also I'm in agreement with sucking and launching speeds/strength not being the same, similar to how the Gravity Gun's primary having a stronger blast to hurt enemies and the secondary having enough force to pull objects from long distances and pick them up but not strong enough to launch them at deadly speeds

 

[MintyBoi1]

Spoiler: Sonic (2011)

If we're not fine with having Supersonic speed by basing it off Fire Mario, I have the feat of Sonic climbing the mountain calced (Subsonic to Subsonic+), but for some reason it wasn't mentioned in the profile itself.

Spoiler: Tails and Luigi

Also for the reasoning for Tails and Luigi being faster than the Poltergust, It's because Tails quickly drops from cloud height in a circular motion to grab Luigi and returns to cloud height right after this attack and I was too lazy to calc it. Also I'm in agreement with sucking and launching speeds/strength not being the same, similar to how the Gravity Gun's primary having a stronger blast to hurt enemies and the secondary having enough force to pull objects from long distances and pick them up but not strong enough to launch them at deadly speeds

I could add that calc if we’re not accepting the Fire Dash. Would be a steep downgrade but likely more accurate. Which end seems better, I was leaning Subsonic+

 

[Diamond_Drone]

I could add that calc if we’re not accepting the Fire Dash. Would be a steep downgrade but likely more accurate. Which end seems better, I was leaning Subsonic+

I mean, if we're using the Mountain method for Durability/Attack Potency of the characters, then it should be Subsonic+

 

[MintyBoi1]

I mean, if we're using the Mountain method for Durability/Attack Potency of the characters, then it should be Subsonic+

And what do you think of Sonic’s shields and damage boost from the spin dash?

 

[Soupywolf5]

Spoiler: Felicia

It was a combo though leading up to Felicia being cut in half. Taokaka couldn’t do that in just one strong hit. I think the speed point is the start of the fight where Taokaka lands a combo on Felicia before she could dodge. But I think a it’s just outpacing considering there’s also a moment where Felicia escapes Tao’s fight mid scuffle. Ki is energy, so clarifying it that way just makes more sense. Do acrobats do that while fighting somebody though? Felicia uses multiple moves requiring great acrobatics like the Rolling Buckler and the Hell Cat without any struggle.

Spoiler: Sonic

I suppose Damage Boost doesn’t have the best justification, but you also have to assume it wasn’t gaining power with each rotation like it does in series. And the Homing Attack is shown with Sonic jumping up to hit Mario which indicates it rather than the Spin Dash. Again, you have to assume he can’t see which would be odd if it at all falls in line with its canon counterpart or is a practical move which it must be considering Sonic used it as a finisher. I don’t think most people watching would assume that. The shields look like their elements and are shown to share their abilities. Again the fire shield lets Sonic do a fiery dash and the bubble shield is just a bubble while the thunder shield surrounds Sonic with visible electricity. I’m just going off the calc section where that’s listed as a speed feat for Mario. Not being crushed under the weight in which Mario swings his hammer seems good to me when considering LS is needed to guard something like that. Mega Mario was also stat amped, not taking any damage implies invulnerability especially when considering Sonic only was threatened because he ran out of Super. I think someone paying attention would take notice that Super Sonic wasn’t harmed and that’s decent grounds for invulnerability. And Mario could’ve just taken notice of the linear path Sonic was taking and hit him that way. He’s a literal giant, he has a better area of effect by default. And Sonic is still shown to be a highly skilled fighter who’s able to adapt on the fly, I consider that above average. Average would be not noticing those chances to use abilities or strike instantly like Sonic does.

Spoiler: Fox

We use the analysis for background details like age and classification. The metal legs link again was for clarification because it’s a fun detail. I don’t want these profiles to just be lifeless when there’s interesting tidbits in them that don’t affect the overall profile. Fox is shown having metal legs in the animation, the link hammers in that DB was confident on that despite clearly being disproved. Also the note says feats are from the fight, Fox’s metal legs aren’t a feat in of themselves. Fox was hit almost directly by a grenade likely above his own durability and had his legs blown off, yet still recovered in seconds even when he was shown taking damage from the altercation. If anything I’d downgrade him to Peak Human for the damage accumulated and energy used.

Spoiler: Bucky

I said possibly, of course Fox didn’t actually take that much damage but he was still coughing up blood because his chest was being stomped on. Bucky also sounds around Peak Human because while yes he’s stronger than an average human, it’d still take him great endurance to shake off things like that. He was clearly being damaged by Fox’s attacks and the grenade he took, yet immediately recovered which seems above Athletic which is just above average pain tolerance. Bucky crash landed on a foreign planet which surely would still be rough on someone with wall level durability considering a car crash is also wall level.

Spoiler: Tails

What suggests a vacuum’s pulling force is different than its expulsion? Pulling and pushing done by the same object should have around the same force. They’re both plain applications of lifting strength. Tails being able to resist the Poltergust’s pull, even while slowed in time should be enough to be considered at least relative. Not to mention he was carrying all the bombs it launched on his person like how Luigi can carry his hammer. I guess the intelligence is a bit weird. Annoying how background info only applies sometimes when Tails is much different than others with gear. Luigi had to do a Star Punch to block the Spin Dash, implying it’s above Tails’ normal output. You’d have to prove the ability is somehow compromising when someone watching would just note it’s a bit weird they’re in a ball and can see.

Spoiler: Kirby

Up to High 6-A with reflection does seem fitting for Hypernova Kirby. Maybe Above Average would be better for intelligence as well since sword and hammer don’t seem to increase Kirby’s combat intuition like Fighter does. I put Kirby at Peak Human though. He seems above Athletic with his acrobatics and pain tolerance, even if he wasn’t bleeding or anything, he endured great amounts of pain and had to adapt to Buu’s vast arsenal.

Spoiler: Tracer

Why would her guns not be comparable to others is the thing. She’s shown relative to Scout and able to avoid his gunfire so her having inferior weapons would hinder her performance since they’d be slower than her own movements. Tracer was shown with great amounts of blood on her, sparks implying the Chronal Accelerator was damaged, and was unable to get back up. What more do you need to consider something fatal? Even staying awake while clearly in that much pain is highly impressive considering the bat and fall might’ve given Tracer a concussion. She still has to activate her abilities, so it’s doing something if not too much. And the distance was calced in Tracer’s bullet dodge.

Spoiler: Felicia

Except she does, none of the attacks beforehand leave any actual damage, (They draw blood, but we can't actually see how extensive the damage is) the last hit alone slices Felicia in half. I guess, but the page also makes it sound like Taokaka was way faster when they were pretty even for most of the fight. I get that, but without specification that the attack was charged by ki specifically, it should just be energy manip, not energy & ki manip. You're vastly overestimating how tiring acrobatic maneuvers are. Yeah, her feats are good showings of acrobatics, but they're not also incredible showings of stamina.

Spoiler: Sonic

No I don't, you have to prove that each rotation was increasing its power in a way that would be considered damage boost, and not just dealing more damage due to being faster and landing more hits or dealing more damage due to Sonic attacking with his sharp quills instead of blunt strikes. Its canon counterpart does not matter, also your claim that it must be a damage boost to be a finisher is contradicting your earlier claim that Taokaka's finisher isn't stronger than her other attacks. You don't think most people would assume what? The shields don't have any abilities corresponding with their elements besides maybe being made of said elements. The fire dash doesn't let Sonic do anything, it surrounds him with what might be fire and he charges while surrounded by that fire, the bubble shield doesn't do anything in the animation besides let Sonic breathe underwater for a bit before Mario destroys it, and the thunder shield also doesn't grant any special abilities besides a speed boost, at absolute best these would be "limited fire/water/electricity manipulation." Well the calc is wrong. Sonic not being crushed in no way means he scales in LS, Sonic doesn't even guard it, Mario hits him and destroys the fire shield, explosion, cut to black, we don't see how well Sonic took the hit, and we definitely can't say he was able to stop it in a way that would let him scale to Mario in LS. Sure, Mega Mario was amped, so what? Not taking damage from something by itself is just higher durability, unless we're planning on giving every character page Invulnerability for face-tanking their opponent's attacks. Someone "paying attention" would notice Super Sonic not taking damage, and conclude that Super Sonic is strong, not that he's invulnerable. Yeah, he was threatened because his amped state wore off while Mario's, which was just face tanking said amped state's attacks and swatted it away like a fly, didn't, that isn't evidence of invulnerability, it's just Sonic realizing he's screwed if he tries fighting Mega Mario because of how strong he is. Also technically their base forms don't take any real damage throughout the fight beforehand either, but they're definitely not getting invulnerability. If Mario was being blitzed like you claim, then he wouldn't be able to notice Sonic's trajectory because he wouldn't be able to see it, also any advantage gained by his Mega form's bigger AoE is more than offset by it needing to cover more distance comparatively to Sonic, that's why swatting a fly out of the air is so hard despite your own AoE compared to them, they don't need to move nearly as much to dodge as you do to hit them. Sonic honestly doesn't do much adapting, and any adapting he does do is incredibly basic, "use the shield that protects against fire to protect against fire," "use the shield that boosts speed to go faster than your opponent," "use the shield that lets you breathe underwater to avoid drowning," none of these are beyond Average intelligence strategies. Saying Sonic is "highly skilled" isn't much when his only skill feat is fighting a guy whose own only skill feat is fighting him, he showcases some good moves, he also doesn't "notice these things instantly," Mario was rocking him with fire for a solid 20 seconds before he pulled out the fire shield to block an AoE fire attack, or how with Mega Mario, it'd be pretty hard to not notice the sudden lack of thundering footsteps behind you, Sonic also takes several seconds to do so and turn around to attack, so this also isn't "striking instantly." Also the intelligence page notes that being "more developed in certain areas but average overall" is still just average intelligence, sure Sonic has some solid fighting ability, but nothing crazy and he's still overall just average

Spoiler: Fox

I guess, and yeah this is more of a nitpick, but the page both linking the analysis and then afterwards saying its not using the analysis is just strange, it says "feats," but it's pretty clear that includes only using abilities from the animations. Except he tanks it without any damage aside from his prosthetics being blown off, so it can't be that much higher above his own stats. Characters don't get Superhuman stamina for tanking a single explosion, and Fox recovering from the attack isn't Superhuman stamina impressive since, again, it didn't damage him beyond knocking his metal legs off, which itself isn't damage or painful in a way that would make it a good feat of stamina.

Spoiler: Bucky

There are many reasons you could cough up blood, most of which aren't nearly as severe as crushed lungs. Taking hits that hurt and recovering is something a normal human can do, it's not Superhuman stamina. The hit in question being an explosion doesn't matter when the dude's stats are scaling to that explosion. I'm not sure why you're bringing up the planet being foreign like that has an impact on stamina. Car crashes are Wall level, yes, and normal humans survive and walk away from them all the time, the difference in surface area means you're barely taking a fraction of the total energy from the crash, which would be more so for Bucky. And since he wasn't damaged in the slightest by the crash, it doesn't contribute much to his stamina.

Spoiler: Tails

My guy they're completely different mechanisms. By your logic a human can push, lift and pull with their arms or push or jump with their legs all with the same amount of force (They can't) since they're also all "plain applications of LS." Tails was being overpowered both times Luigi used that poltergust on him and had to use his gadgets to get out both times. Luigi has hammerspace for carrying his items the way he does and Tails should too, so he should only scale to the weight of one bomb since he brought them out and threw them one at a time. Prove that Luigi's super jump punch is stronger than his other attacks, it sending Tails flying doesn't, all of Luigi's clean hits sent Tails flying, and it stopping the spin dash also isn't proof when it being damage boost is only through being countered by the super jump punch. No I don't, you're the one making the positive claim that Tails can see despite being in a position which obscures his eyes, you need to prove that. Tails also doesn't even do anything with the spin dash that would suggest he can see or navigate accurately with it, he uses it to charge in the direction Luigi was when he started, then gets countered and sent into the sky, he doesn't dodge anything or maneuver the environment, he moves in a straight line towards Luigi and then gets hit out of the move

Spoiler: Kirby

You can't say for certain how much pain Kirby endured through the fight, his acrobatics are fairly simple and again, aren't some super demanding feats of stamina. And we outright see Kirby tiring when he starts fighting Kid Buu, at this point he's also barely taken any attacks anyway, since the fight is mostly Kirby wailing on Buu who regenerates and lands the occasional hit, most of Buu's attacks are dodged or blocked, which especially dampers Kirby enduring Superhuman stamina worthy levels of pain

Spoiler: Tracer

No, we can't just pick a real gun and say Tracer's entirely fictional pistols are comparable. Star Wars blasters can be said to look similar to real rifles, but the speed of their blasts in Disney canon is much slower than real bullets. Tracer's movement and combat speed are Peak Human, her pistol blasts don't need to be that fast to outpace herself. Sure she bled a lot, but that in and of itself isn't a good indication of exactly how much damage she took, just from what we can see a normal human should realistically be able to withstand that level of blood loss and stay conscious for a while, the accelerator being damaged doesn't matter since it's not part of her body, and her being unable to stand hurts her stamina more than it helps, she stays conscious, sure, she's still awake, but she can't get back up and can barely move, she's faring about as well as a normal human would in her situation, we can't just say she got a concussion without anything to suggest so (And no just being hit in the head isn't proof of getting a concussion) and since she pretty much just needs to think to activate her time reversal to undo the damage, she really only needs to do the bare minimum past saying conscious at that point, which a normal human could do. The level of the attack that led her to that point doesn't matter when that exact impact is what her stats are scaling from. We have a distance the bullet moved, but Tracer's own speed is only a timeframe. There's no actual speed value, just a reaction time, which would only be perception speed

 

[Soupywolf5]

Spoiler: Sonic (2011)

If we're not fine with having Supersonic speed by basing it off Fire Mario, I have the feat of Sonic climbing the mountain calced (Subsonic to Subsonic+), but for some reason it wasn't mentioned in the profile itself.

Spoiler: Tails and Luigi

Also for the reasoning for Tails and Luigi being faster than the Poltergust, It's because Tails quickly drops from cloud height in a circular motion to grab Luigi and returns to cloud height right after this attack and I was too lazy to calc it. Also I'm in agreement with sucking and launching speeds/strength not being the same, similar to how the Gravity Gun's primary having a stronger blast to hurt enemies and the secondary having enough force to pull objects from long distances and pick them up but not strong enough to launch them at deadly speeds

Yeah, that's good

Calculating the speed Tails flew to grab Luigi is far better than saying he "should be faster than the poltergust," it'd probably be a low-ball since I don't think you can accurately measure the angle Tails drops at, but it'd be better than the current scaling (Looking at the fight real quick, Tails takes 54 frames, or 1.8 seconds going from being off-screen to grabbing Luigi, and using the cirrus cloud height: 4572/1.8 = 2,540 meters/second, or Mach 7.4, a tiny bit faster than the poltergust) though this should just be flight speed since I don't remember Luigi doing anything to indicate he'd actually scale to Tails' flight in speed, and his own scaling to the poltergust should be dropped outside of "Hypersonic attack speed with the poltergust" (Also this is more of a tiny nitpick, but the flower Luigi used to turn invisible isn't called an invisibility flower it's called a power flower)

 

[MintyBoi1]

Spoiler: Felicia

Except she does, none of the attacks beforehand leave any actual damage, (They draw blood, but we can't actually see how extensive the damage is) the last hit alone slices Felicia in half. I guess, but the page also makes it sound like Taokaka was way faster when they were pretty even for most of the fight. I get that, but without specification that the attack was charged by ki specifically, it should just be energy manip, not energy & ki manip. You're vastly overestimating how tiring acrobatic maneuvers are. Yeah, her feats are good showings of acrobatics, but they're not also incredible showings of stamina.

Spoiler: Sonic

No I don't, you have to prove that each rotation was increasing its power in a way that would be considered damage boost, and not just dealing more damage due to being faster and landing more hits or dealing more damage due to Sonic attacking with his sharp quills instead of blunt strikes. Its canon counterpart does not matter, also your claim that it must be a damage boost to be a finisher is contradicting your earlier claim that Taokaka's finisher isn't stronger than her other attacks. You don't think most people would assume what? The shields don't have any abilities corresponding with their elements besides maybe being made of said elements. The fire dash doesn't let Sonic do anything, it surrounds him with what might be fire and he charges while surrounded by that fire, the bubble shield doesn't do anything in the animation besides let Sonic breathe underwater for a bit before Mario destroys it, and the thunder shield also doesn't grant any special abilities besides a speed boost, at absolute best these would be "limited fire/water/electricity manipulation." Well the calc is wrong. Sonic not being crushed in no way means he scales in LS, Sonic doesn't even guard it, Mario hits him and destroys the fire shield, explosion, cut to black, we don't see how well Sonic took the hit, and we definitely can't say he was able to stop it in a way that would let him scale to Mario in LS. Sure, Mega Mario was amped, so what? Not taking damage from something by itself is just higher durability, unless we're planning on giving every character page Invulnerability for face-tanking their opponent's attacks. Someone "paying attention" would notice Super Sonic not taking damage, and conclude that Super Sonic is strong, not that he's invulnerable. Yeah, he was threatened because his amped state wore off while Mario's, which was just face tanking said amped state's attacks and swatted it away like a fly, didn't, that isn't evidence of invulnerability, it's just Sonic realizing he's screwed if he tries fighting Mega Mario because of how strong he is. Also technically their base forms don't take any real damage throughout the fight beforehand either, but they're definitely not getting invulnerability. If Mario was being blitzed like you claim, then he wouldn't be able to notice Sonic's trajectory because he wouldn't be able to see it, also any advantage gained by his Mega form's bigger AoE is more than offset by it needing to cover more distance comparatively to Sonic, that's why swatting a fly out of the air is so hard despite your own AoE compared to them, they don't need to move nearly as much to dodge as you do to hit them. Sonic honestly doesn't do much adapting, and any adapting he does do is incredibly basic, "use the shield that protects against fire to protect against fire," "use the shield that boosts speed to go faster than your opponent," "use the shield that lets you breathe underwater to avoid drowning," none of these are beyond Average intelligence strategies. Saying Sonic is "highly skilled" isn't much when his only skill feat is fighting a guy whose own only skill feat is fighting him, he showcases some good moves, he also doesn't "notice these things instantly," Mario was rocking him with fire for a solid 20 seconds before he pulled out the fire shield to block an AoE fire attack, or how with Mega Mario, it'd be pretty hard to not notice the sudden lack of thundering footsteps behind you, Sonic also takes several seconds to do so and turn around to attack, so this also isn't "striking instantly." Also the intelligence page notes that being "more developed in certain areas but average overall" is still just average intelligence, sure Sonic has some solid fighting ability, but nothing crazy and he's still overall just average

Spoiler: Fox

I guess, and yeah this is more of a nitpick, but the page both linking the analysis and then afterwards saying its not using the analysis is just strange, it says "feats," but it's pretty clear that includes only using abilities from the animations. Except he tanks it without any damage aside from his prosthetics being blown off, so it can't be that much higher above his own stats. Characters don't get Superhuman stamina for tanking a single explosion, and Fox recovering from the attack isn't Superhuman stamina impressive since, again, it didn't damage him beyond knocking his metal legs off, which itself isn't damage or painful in a way that would make it a good feat of stamina.

Spoiler: Bucky

There are many reasons you could cough up blood, most of which aren't nearly as severe as crushed lungs. Taking hits that hurt and recovering is something a normal human can do, it's not Superhuman stamina. The hit in question being an explosion doesn't matter when the dude's stats are scaling to that explosion. I'm not sure why you're bringing up the planet being foreign like that has an impact on stamina. Car crashes are Wall level, yes, and normal humans survive and walk away from them all the time, the difference in surface area means you're barely taking a fraction of the total energy from the crash, which would be more so for Bucky. And since he wasn't damaged in the slightest by the crash, it doesn't contribute much to his stamina.

Spoiler: Tails

My guy they're completely different mechanisms. By your logic a human can push, lift and pull with their arms or push or jump with their legs all with the same amount of force (They can't) since they're also all "plain applications of LS." Tails was being overpowered both times Luigi used that poltergust on him and had to use his gadgets to get out both times. Luigi has hammerspace for carrying his items the way he does and Tails should too, so he should only scale to the weight of one bomb since he brought them out and threw them one at a time. Prove that Luigi's super jump punch is stronger than his other attacks, it sending Tails flying doesn't, all of Luigi's clean hits sent Tails flying, and it stopping the spin dash also isn't proof when it being damage boost is only through being countered by the super jump punch. No I don't, you're the one making the positive claim that Tails can see despite being in a position which obscures his eyes, you need to prove that. Tails also doesn't even do anything with the spin dash that would suggest he can see or navigate accurately with it, he uses it to charge in the direction Luigi was when he started, then gets countered and sent into the sky, he doesn't dodge anything or maneuver the environment, he moves in a straight line towards Luigi and then gets hit out of the move

Spoiler: Kirby

You can't say for certain how much pain Kirby endured through the fight, his acrobatics are fairly simple and again, aren't some super demanding feats of stamina. And we outright see Kirby tiring when he starts fighting Kid Buu, at this point he's also barely taken any attacks anyway, since the fight is mostly Kirby wailing on Buu who regenerates and lands the occasional hit, most of Buu's attacks are dodged or blocked, which especially dampers Kirby enduring Superhuman stamina worthy levels of pain

Spoiler: Tracer

No, we can't just pick a real gun and say Tracer's entirely fictional pistols are comparable. Star Wars blasters can be said to look similar to real rifles, but the speed of their blasts in Disney canon is much slower than real bullets. Tracer's movement and combat speed are Peak Human, her pistol blasts don't need to be that fast to outpace herself. Sure she bled a lot, but that in and of itself isn't a good indication of exactly how much damage she took, just from what we can see a normal human should realistically be able to withstand that level of blood loss and stay conscious for a while, the accelerator being damaged doesn't matter since it's not part of her body, and her being unable to stand hurts her stamina more than it helps, she stays conscious, sure, she's still awake, but she can't get back up and can barely move, she's faring about as well as a normal human would in her situation, we can't just say she got a concussion without anything to suggest so (And no just being hit in the head isn't proof of getting a concussion) and since she pretty much just needs to think to activate her time reversal to undo the damage, she really only needs to do the bare minimum past saying conscious at that point, which a normal human could do. The level of the attack that led her to that point doesn't matter when that exact impact is what her stats are scaling from. We have a distance the bullet moved, but Tracer's own speed is only a timeframe. There's no actual speed value, just a reaction time, which would only be perception speed

Spoiler: Felicia

I think it’s asking a bit too much of the animations to extensively show blood and gore for characters to be considered damaged rather than just looking at hits shown causing pain. It’d be a much lengthier process and likely make things a lot less fun to watch. Maybe we could just change the speed description on Taokaka’s page then. I suppose removing ki manip and downgrading to athletic is fine.

Spoiler: Sonic

Mario was shown taking a Homing Attack just fine, so he could take Sonic’s quills. Yet the Spin Dash almost immediately dug into him and then dug even further with each spin. I was making that claim for ESP and how most people wouldn’t assume Sonic can’t see while curled up. Looks best to change to limited fire/electricity and remove the water manipulation. I’ll change the speed now that Diamond’s spoke on it. The LS point seems fair, Sonic may be unknown. Same with the other stuff.

Spoiler: Fox

I get what you mean, I’ll probably just remove the link. Fox was shown rolling on the ground after losing his legs and grunting in pain. I think it’s implied Fox would’ve died had he not avoided the bomb at all considering he actively ran from it. Can you clarify if you have an issue with Peak Human stamina? Same with Bucky.

Spoiler: Tails

If we’re not accepting the sucking and launching as the same, Tails could just be Class K. He still has feats of carrying Luigi with his hammer and resisting the pull. The jump punch set Tails on fire with the sheer speed he was launched which others didn’t. And the Spin Dash is shown building up the momentum. Maybe Enhanced Senses is better, even if I have problems with it.

Spoiler: Kirby

I’m unsure on whether you’re talking about Kirby’s actual stamina rating of Peak Human or Superhuman.

Spoiler: Tracer

I guess maybe her bullets are slower. Still, I don’t see the benefit of downgrading her stamina to Average with the pain tolerance combined with her running/acrobatics. Changing reactions to perception seems alright.

 

[Soupywolf5]

Spoiler: Felicia

I think it’s asking a bit too much of the animations to extensively show blood and gore for characters to be considered damaged rather than just looking at hits shown causing pain. It’d be a much lengthier process and likely make things a lot less fun to watch. Maybe we could just change the speed description on Taokaka’s page then. I suppose removing ki manip and downgrading to athletic is fine.

Spoiler: Sonic

Mario was shown taking a Homing Attack just fine, so he could take Sonic’s quills. Yet the Spin Dash almost immediately dug into him and then dug even further with each spin. I was making that claim for ESP and how most people wouldn’t assume Sonic can’t see while curled up. Looks best to change to limited fire/electricity and remove the water manipulation. I’ll change the speed now that Diamond’s spoke on it. The LS point seems fair, Sonic may be unknown. Same with the other stuff.

Spoiler: Fox

I get what you mean, I’ll probably just remove the link. Fox was shown rolling on the ground after losing his legs and grunting in pain. I think it’s implied Fox would’ve died had he not avoided the bomb at all considering he actively ran from it. Can you clarify if you have an issue with Peak Human stamina? Same with Bucky.

Spoiler: Tails

If we’re not accepting the sucking and launching as the same, Tails could just be Class K. He still has feats of carrying Luigi with his hammer and resisting the pull. The jump punch set Tails on fire with the sheer speed he was launched which others didn’t. And the Spin Dash is shown building up the momentum. Maybe Enhanced Senses is better, even if I have problems with it.

Spoiler: Kirby

I’m unsure on whether you’re talking about Kirby’s actual stamina rating of Peak Human or Superhuman.

Spoiler: Tracer

I guess maybe her bullets are slower. Still, I don’t see the benefit of downgrading her stamina to Average with the pain tolerance combined with her running/acrobatics. Changing reactions to perception seems alright.

Spoiler: Felicia

I'm not asking it to extensively show injuries, but just a few bits of red somewhere on her sprite to signify at least what kind of injuries she's sustained

Spoiler: Sonic

Right, I forgot to mention that last time, but Sonic using the spin dash "in the air" isn't proof that it was a homing attack, and that was a single quick blow that knocked Mario away, he didn't have to tank the quills, while the finisher spin dash was an extended spin dash into Mario's back. Why wouldn't someone assume "his eyes are covered, so he can't see?" You would also still need to actually prove that he can, instead of him being able to just accurately navigate. You're making the positive claim that he can see despite covering his eye

Spoiler: Fox

Him grunting in pain was probably not about losing his prosthetics and probably, you know, tanking an explosion. Just trying to avoid it doesn't mean it would have killed him, otherwise every attack a character tries to avoid would one-shot them by that logic, why would Fox just sit there and take it? I guess Peak human might be alright

Spoiler: Tails

No he wouldn't. The hammer itself only had Class 5 weight, and the force of the hit knocked Luigi out of Tails' grasp, he shouldn't scale to the swing itself. Is that it? Not only was that probably just a reference to the actual move's depiction in Smash, but characters who have "ignite through speed" feats often don't have every one of their movements leaving trails of fire, like you said earlier, that be a pain to have to animate. And honestly, neither of Tails' usages of the spin dash in his fight should really qualify for either ESP or Enhanced Senses, all he does is charge in a straight line towards Luigi, and he gets countered both times (The second time was just with a normal hammer swing that didn't set Tails on fire by the way, so no Luigi doesn't need "much stronger" attacks to counter it, and saying the hammer swing was stronger than Luigi's attacks would then lead to circular scaling of Tails < Spin dash < hammer < Tails since Tails could take multiple hammer swings including one without being in a spin dash) without even trying to dodge

Spoiler: Kirby

Listen, I was running on like 2 hours of sleep, I forgot what stamina Kirby had. But I don't think his feats are Peak Human either.

Spoiler: Tracer

She didn't really run around much, most of her movements were done with her blinks, which we can't say anything on the stamina requirements of, and the pain tolerance also isn't anything incredible. Since we can't tell exactly what kind of damage she took, we also can't say for certain how much pain she was in. She lost quite a bit of blood, but a normal human could lose that and remain conscious too, and Tracer barely does anything and almost immediately undoes the damage anyway. In terms of what exactly to put her speed at, maybe "Peak Human, higher with blinks and pistols, with Subsonic Perception speed?"

 

[MintyBoi1]

Spoiler: Felicia

I'm not asking it to extensively show injuries, but just a few bits of red somewhere on her sprite to signify at least what kind of injuries she's sustained

Spoiler: Sonic

Right, I forgot to mention that last time, but Sonic using the spin dash "in the air" isn't proof that it was a homing attack, and that was a single quick blow that knocked Mario away, he didn't have to tank the quills, while the finisher spin dash was an extended spin dash into Mario's back. Why wouldn't someone assume "his eyes are covered, so he can't see?" You would also still need to actually prove that he can, instead of him being able to just accurately navigate. You're making the positive claim that he can see despite covering his eye

Spoiler: Fox

Him grunting in pain was probably not about losing his prosthetics and probably, you know, tanking an explosion. Just trying to avoid it doesn't mean it would have killed him, otherwise every attack a character tries to avoid would one-shot them by that logic, why would Fox just sit there and take it? I guess Peak human might be alright

Spoiler: Tails

No he wouldn't. The hammer itself only had Class 5 weight, and the force of the hit knocked Luigi out of Tails' grasp, he shouldn't scale to the swing itself. Is that it? Not only was that probably just a reference to the actual move's depiction in Smash, but characters who have "ignite through speed" feats often don't have every one of their movements leaving trails of fire, like you said earlier, that be a pain to have to animate. And honestly, neither of Tails' usages of the spin dash in his fight should really qualify for either ESP or Enhanced Senses, all he does is charge in a straight line towards Luigi, and he gets countered both times (The second time was just with a normal hammer swing that didn't set Tails on fire by the way, so no Luigi doesn't need "much stronger" attacks to counter it, and saying the hammer swing was stronger than Luigi's attacks would then lead to circular scaling of Tails < Spin dash < hammer < Tails since Tails could take multiple hammer swings including one without being in a spin dash) without even trying to dodge

Spoiler: Kirby

Listen, I was running on like 2 hours of sleep, I forgot what stamina Kirby had. But I don't think his feats are Peak Human either.

Spoiler: Tracer

She didn't really run around much, most of her movements were done with her blinks, which we can't say anything on the stamina requirements of, and the pain tolerance also isn't anything incredible. Since we can't tell exactly what kind of damage she took, we also can't say for certain how much pain she was in. She lost quite a bit of blood, but a normal human could lose that and remain conscious too, and Tracer barely does anything and almost immediately undoes the damage anyway. In terms of what exactly to put her speed at, maybe "Peak Human, higher with blinks and pistols, with Subsonic Perception speed?"

Spoiler: Felicia

Stuff like that seems case by case with DB. There’s stuff like Sasuke vs Hiei where both are bloodied by the end and then Black Panther vs Batman or Beerus vs Galaxia where the damage only really visibly shows at the end. Felicia was still shown spilling blood right before the final combo where Taokaka finished her, showing Tao had to stack damage for the end result. This was before they had custom sprites as well, so any editing they did might’ve been too sloppy.

Spoiler: Sonic

The Spin Dash is very rarely used midair as oppose to the Homing Attack, especially at an angle where Sonic’s jumping up like shown. And Sonic can still easily cut through people with a precise hit like that, so it’s notable Mario was ok, even if it was for a shorter time. The reason they wouldn’t assume that, ignoring writer’s intentions, is because Sonic can accurately aim himself while using the Homing Attack and fights like normal while curled up.

Spoiler: Fox

Yeah, I meant the part where he was rolling after the explosion. But considering it easily blew off his legs, it probably would’ve done the same to the rest of his body. Fox even threw away his Reflector, implying it wouldn’t have saved him from the blast even though it reflected Bucky’s grenade itself. Peak Human it is then.

Spoiler: Tails

He held Luigi as he charged up and swung the hammer without struggle though, which should at least be close to the force calced. The reason he was knocked away was because he was hit by a giant hammer. Downgrading Tails to Class 5 seems absurd with the feats he shows. That would also make the Poltergust’s sucking force infinitely weaker than its launching force which is kinda a problem because it’s you know, a vacuum. That’s very impractical. The punch very clearly packed more power with how it launched Tails farther than even Luigi’s hammer swing and set him on fire. Obviously I’m not asking for something like fire every hit, but we can’t blatantly ignore the implication of one attack being more visibly powerful than others. And if we’re gonna keep in mind references to Smash moves, why can’t we keep in mind it’s common knowledge that the Spin Dash isn’t blinding? Also, Luigi’s hammer is clearly above his punches that aren’t the Super Jump Punch. Looking at it, Tails won a physical altercation, knocking Luigi away (9:24) and clashed with Luigi’s hammer swing using the Magic Hand (10:06). Just because the hammer is stronger than Luigi’s normal physicals doesn’t mean Tails shouldn’t he able to take it. That just means it’s a light amp since it’s still Luigi’s power just with a better weight behind it.

Spoiler: Kirby

Athletic seems fine.

Spoiler: Tracer

Rewatching, Tracer did less acrobatics than I thought. Changes seem fine.

 

[Soupywolf5]

Spoiler: Felicia

Stuff like that seems case by case with DB. There’s stuff like Sasuke vs Hiei where both are bloodied by the end and then Black Panther vs Batman or Beerus vs Galaxia where the damage only really visibly shows at the end. Felicia was still shown spilling blood right before the final combo where Taokaka finished her, showing Tao had to stack damage for the end result. This was before they had custom sprites as well, so any editing they did might’ve been too sloppy.

Spoiler: Sonic

The Spin Dash is very rarely used midair as oppose to the Homing Attack, especially at an angle where Sonic’s jumping up like shown. And Sonic can still easily cut through people with a precise hit like that, so it’s notable Mario was ok, even if it was for a shorter time. The reason they wouldn’t assume that, ignoring writer’s intentions, is because Sonic can accurately aim himself while using the Homing Attack and fights like normal while curled up.

Spoiler: Fox

Yeah, I meant the part where he was rolling after the explosion. But considering it easily blew off his legs, it probably would’ve done the same to the rest of his body. Fox even threw away his Reflector, implying it wouldn’t have saved him from the blast even though it reflected Bucky’s grenade itself. Peak Human it is then.

Spoiler: Tails

He held Luigi as he charged up and swung the hammer without struggle though, which should at least be close to the force calced. The reason he was knocked away was because he was hit by a giant hammer. Downgrading Tails to Class 5 seems absurd with the feats he shows. That would also make the Poltergust’s sucking force infinitely weaker than its launching speed which is kinda a problem because it’s you know, a vacuum. That’s very impractical. The punch very clearly packed more power with how it launched Tails farther than even Luigi’s hammer swing and set him on fire. Obviously I’m not asking for something like fire every hit, but we can’t blatantly ignore the implication of one attack being more visibly powerful than others. And if we’re gonna keep in mind references to Smash moves, why can’t we keep in mind it’s common knowledge that the Spin Dash isn’t blinding? Also, Luigi’s hammer is clearly above his punches that aren’t the Super Jump Punch. Looking at it, Tails won a physical altercation, knocking Luigi away (9:24) and clashed with Luigi’s hammer swing using the Magic Hand (10:06). Just because the hammer is stronger than Luigi’s normal physicals doesn’t mean Tails shouldn’t he able to take it. That just means it’s a light amp since it’s still Luigi’s power just with a better weight behind it.

Spoiler: Kirby

Athletic seems fine.

Spoiler: Tracer

Rewatching, Tracer did less acrobatics than I thought. Changes seem fine.

Spoiler: Sonic

Literally all of this is "using canon, your argument is invalid." We don't care how Sonic uses the spin dash and homing attack in canon, "easily cut through people" the one time he uses it that way in the animation Mario tanks it, so no he can't. Again, Enhanced Senses fits that better, he can accurately aim, sure, but that doesn't inherently mean he can actually see

Spoiler: Fox

Knocking off a prosthetic isn't nearly as hard as knocking off a real limb, he threw the reflector away because he can't reflect an explosion

Spoiler: Tails

The Class K doesn't come from the wind-up, it comes from the swing, and Tails easily got overpowered by the swing, it knocked Luigi out of his grip. "infinitely weaker" bruh no it wouldn't. It doesn't matter how "impractical" it would be, we go by what we're shown, not by what we assume, and the expulsion has shown far greater feats than the succ. Tails doesn't really have any feats of LS approaching Class K anyway, he picks Luigi up (Real impressive human level LS right there, Luigi doesn't even try to break out of his grip before bringing out the hammer, after which he's successful), can still lift him when he's holding the hammer (Alright, better, since that hammer's class 5 heavy) and can chuck his own bombs one at a time. (Also Class 5, though actually lighter than the hammer) Luigi's electric punches also sent Tails flying far distances, and Tails' bombs sent Luigi flying even farther than the super jump punch sent Tails, but he kept fighting without any real injury. I brought up the Smash thing more as a "this isn't blatantly meant to show that it's stronger," Tails' spin dash just doesn't have any showings that suggest he can see or possesses accurate navigation while using it anyway. Saying Tails "won a physical altercataion" is just saying they're equal, they were both knocking each other around with their hits. Exactly, the hammer isn't so much stronger than Luigi's normal attacks that Tails would need a damage boosting technique to get countered by it, nor is the super jump punch.

 

[Soupywolf5]

Also here's the calcs I made for Goomba vs Koopa and Yoshi vs Riptor

 

[Soupywolf5]

Also here's the calcs I made for Goomba vs Koopa and Yoshi vs Riptor

Just noticed a small mistake with the Yoshi one, it's a little lower now, but still Wall level & Class 10

 

[Volt12121]

Added the stuff for Yoshi, Riptor, goomba and Koopa

 

[MintyBoi1]

Spoiler: Sonic

Literally all of this is "using canon, your argument is invalid." We don't care how Sonic uses the spin dash and homing attack in canon, "easily cut through people" the one time he uses it that way in the animation Mario tanks it, so no he can't. Again, Enhanced Senses fits that better, he can accurately aim, sure, but that doesn't inherently mean he can actually see

Spoiler: Fox

Knocking off a prosthetic isn't nearly as hard as knocking off a real limb, he threw the reflector away because he can't reflect an explosion

Spoiler: Tails

The Class K doesn't come from the wind-up, it comes from the swing, and Tails easily got overpowered by the swing, it knocked Luigi out of his grip. "infinitely weaker" bruh no it wouldn't. It doesn't matter how "impractical" it would be, we go by what we're shown, not by what we assume, and the expulsion has shown far greater feats than the succ. Tails doesn't really have any feats of LS approaching Class K anyway, he picks Luigi up (Real impressive human level LS right there, Luigi doesn't even try to break out of his grip before bringing out the hammer, after which he's successful), can still lift him when he's holding the hammer (Alright, better, since that hammer's class 5 heavy) and can chuck his own bombs one at a time. (Also Class 5, though actually lighter than the hammer) Luigi's electric punches also sent Tails flying far distances, and Tails' bombs sent Luigi flying even farther than the super jump punch sent Tails, but he kept fighting without any real injury. I brought up the Smash thing more as a "this isn't blatantly meant to show that it's stronger," Tails' spin dash just doesn't have any showings that suggest he can see or possesses accurate navigation while using it anyway. Saying Tails "won a physical altercataion" is just saying they're equal, they were both knocking each other around with their hits. Exactly, the hammer isn't so much stronger than Luigi's normal attacks that Tails would need a damage boosting technique to get countered by it, nor is the super jump punch.

Spoiler: Sonic

Yes but dismissing the Homing Attack when it seems Sonic uses it seems inaccurate. That just means Mario is durable, Sonic was still using his Bodily Weaponry. Also how would Enhanced Senses even aid him? Would he hear where Mario is or something? Seeing without eyes is extrasensory perception.

Spoiler: Fox

There’s decent grounds for assuming Bucky’s grenade was stronger than Fox’s durability. But the stamina was the main point anyway, it took mental fortitude for Fox to recover from losing his legs and win like he did.

Spoiler: Tails

Tails still held on before he was hit without his balance being thrown off. Class M and Class 5 seem like a pretty big difference. Your arguments revolve around giving Tails the least benefit of the doubt possible even though he’s shown faster than Luigi and comparable strength wise. What we’re shown suggests Tails should be able to contend with and scale to Luigi in all regards. Him lifting the hammer mid swing and blocking its swing should give him Class K. Maybe the ESP point is fair, but that’s it. I don’t know what you’re trying to say at the end, but Tails is shown charging up and needed to be stopped by things stronger than Luigi’s plain physicals. The level his stats were raised isn’t the main point, it’s the fact they were.

 

[Soupywolf5]

Spoiler: Sonic

Yes but dismissing the Homing Attack when it seems Sonic uses it seems inaccurate. That just means Mario is durable, Sonic was still using his Bodily Weaponry. Also how would Enhanced Senses even aid him? Would he hear where Mario is or something? Seeing without eyes is extrasensory perception.

Spoiler: Fox

There’s decent grounds for assuming Bucky’s grenade was stronger than Fox’s durability. But the stamina was the main point anyway, it took mental fortitude for Fox to recover from losing his legs and win like he did.

Spoiler: Tails

Tails still held on before he was hit without his balance being thrown off. Class M and Class 5 seem like a pretty big difference. Your arguments revolve around giving Tails the least benefit of the doubt possible even though he’s shown faster than Luigi and comparable strength wise. What we’re shown suggests Tails should be able to contend with and scale to Luigi in all regards. Him lifting the hammer mid swing and blocking its swing should give him Class K. Maybe the ESP point is fair, but that’s it. I don’t know what you’re trying to say at the end, but Tails is shown charging up and needed to be stopped by things stronger than Luigi’s plain physicals. The level his stats were raised isn’t the main point, it’s the fact they were.

Spoiler: Sonic

We're not "dismissing" the homing attack, I'm saying we can't know for sure that the homing attack was even used over just a normal spin dash. Sure, but that still doesn't indicate the spin dash is damage boost, when the second time was just much more prolonged contact. Seeing without eyes is ESP, sure, but we can't say that Sonic can actually see, all we can say for sure is he can navigate while in a ball, which fits with Enhanced Awareness, one of the applications of Enhanced Senses

Spoiler: Fox

Fox scales to Bucky, who's main feat of durability is tanking one of his own grenades, it's not that much higher than Fox's own stats, also mental exertion isn't actually listed as one of the applications of stamina on its page, but regardless, Peak human should be ok

Spoiler: Tails

Comparable AP & Durability, but he hasn't shown comparable LS to Luigi, I'm agreeing that he's faster, that's why Luigi's Hypersonic speed should be dropped to just reaction/maybe combat speed while Tails can either keep Hypersonic flat or have Hypersonic reaction/combat & flight speed. No we're not shown he's comparable "in all regards," at no point in the fight does he match Luigi in LS, he whacks a hammer swing away with a magic glove, but that's both not Tails' physical stats and not even an application of LS, he hits the hammer swing aside from a different angle that wouldn't be contesting it head-on. He's also barely shown charging it and the charging could just as well be charging up speed, (Also on that subject said speed amping isn't even that great, Luigi, who was comparable to Tails' normal speed, could react to and counter the spin dash both times it was used) prove that Luigi "needed" the stronger attacks to counter the spin dash, the hammer and jump punch are barely stronger than Luigi's physicals anyway. The jump punch just plain shouldn't, it had similar effects to the bombs both are being scaled to, and Tails shook it off just fine.

 

[Diamond_Drone]

btw does anyone mind if I remove all the Sora scaling from King Mickey's page and add the standard note that every profile has? There's no proof of those episodes being connected like Goku v Superman.

 

[MintyBoi1]

Spoiler: Sonic

We're not "dismissing" the homing attack, I'm saying we can't know for sure that the homing attack was even used over just a normal spin dash. Sure, but that still doesn't indicate the spin dash is damage boost, when the second time was just much more prolonged contact. Seeing without eyes is ESP, sure, but we can't say that Sonic can actually see, all we can say for sure is he can navigate while in a ball, which fits with Enhanced Awareness, one of the applications of Enhanced Senses

Spoiler: Fox

Fox scales to Bucky, who's main feat of durability is tanking one of his own grenades, it's not that much higher than Fox's own stats, also mental exertion isn't actually listed as one of the applications of stamina on its page, but regardless, Peak human should be ok

Spoiler: Tails

Comparable AP & Durability, but he hasn't shown comparable LS to Luigi, I'm agreeing that he's faster, that's why Luigi's Hypersonic speed should be dropped to just reaction/maybe combat speed while Tails can either keep Hypersonic flat or have Hypersonic reaction/combat & flight speed. No we're not shown he's comparable "in all regards," at no point in the fight does he match Luigi in LS, he whacks a hammer swing away with a magic glove, but that's both not Tails' physical stats and not even an application of LS, he hits the hammer swing aside from a different angle that wouldn't be contesting it head-on. He's also barely shown charging it and the charging could just as well be charging up speed, (Also on that subject said speed amping isn't even that great, Luigi, who was comparable to Tails' normal speed, could react to and counter the spin dash both times it was used) prove that Luigi "needed" the stronger attacks to counter the spin dash, the hammer and jump punch are barely stronger than Luigi's physicals anyway. The jump punch just plain shouldn't, it had similar effects to the bombs both are being scaled to, and Tails shook it off just fine.

Spoiler: Sonic

I think the Homing Attack should stay since it’s very possible Sonic was using it there. Removing Damage Boost and adding Enhanced Senses seems ok.

Spoiler: Fox

That is very odd, but glad we agree.

Spoiler: Tails

I suppose that all makes sense, though the Poltergust also has a Class 50 pulling force from the bombs.

btw does anyone mind if I remove all the Sora scaling from King Mickey's page and add the standard note that every profile has? There's no proof of those episodes being connected like Goku v Superman.

That’s a pet peeve of mine, go for it.