• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

DC/VERTIGO God Tiers Revision?Details addition?

Status
Not open for further replies.

TheSandman31

1,344
211
Okay I think that the bit about Destiny existing outside of Destiny's book isn't correct

I believe that Lucifer exists in Destiny 's book until he escaped from the Presence's plan.Remember that the one who wrote Destiny's book isn't Destiny.Destiny like everyone else in Creation is inside the Book( even though the book and he are one, he said that in some sense he is still a resident of the universe, a part of the book itself).Destiny also follows the book, just like everyone else.Thus Lucifer and Michael being inside the book or script or story don't mean that Destiny is above them.It's just that the one who wrote the script is above them.Destiny isn't the author of the Book

This just means that the one who makes the script, the one who wrote the book of Destiny is above Michael and Lucifer.The one who possibly written the Book is the Presence himself.

Destiny's book is based on the Script, the Script that contains even contains Michael and Lucifer.

This chapter shows that Michael and Lucifer are still part of the Book of Destiny.That both of them cant change what's written in the Book, because if they can then they would have already done so(or Michael because he seems desperate enough to threaten Destiny)

http://***************.to/Comic/Lucifer-2000/Issue-52?id=23725

Also, the only way for Destiny to know the fates of Lucifer and Michael is if they exist inside the Book.It won't make sense for Destiny to know the fate of Lucifer and Michael if they exist outside it.Destiny knows the future because he reads his Book if Michael and Lucifer are not part of it then how can he know their fate?

It also says in the chapter that The Script that the book is based o is changing.So what could this Script be?

Its the plan of the Presence. The Book is Creation while The Script is the Presence's plan.So Lucifer and Michael exist inside the book because the Book is based on the Script that was written by the Presence

So in this scan

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/B2tcF19Fmv...wXO7A6uAYxMOQKnLsXyi2ajARwtvZGy7W4neBvl=s1600

Lucifer: Even though I know you're really just a side effect?

Destiny: Indeed? of what?

Lucifer: Of my father.Or rather his deterministic approach to the act of Creation

Destiny is the side effect of the Presence predetermining Creation.Destiny isn't just a side of effect of Creation but the side effect of the act of the Presence creating a plan for Creation to follow

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11130/111302904/6135495-0705100652-SzIQO.jpg:

This scan also said that:

In the Beginning was the Word, and it was traced by hand on the first page of his Book before it was ever spoken aloud

' 'The Word is an abstract entity and an aspect of The Presence. Having been formed when God first sang creation into being, The Word is God's executor, killing all those who defy him

The Word is as old as Creation both being created when the Presence first spoke and yet Destiny exist even before this.This means that Destiny exist before Creation itself, or rather it came into being when the Presence created the Plan even before Creation

What are your thoughts? Am I just overthinking it?

Anyway Destiny's age should be change from Possibly as old as Creation to Older than Creation by being older than The Word who is as old as Creation







 
This can also mean that Destiny can be treated as an aspect of the Presence.Aspects of the Presence are created because of an act made by the Presence, this means that Destiny is sorts of the representation of predestination because he was created by the Presence predetermining Creation
 
What do you specifically want to change?
 
Age of Destiny from Possibly as Old as Creation to Older than Creation (Existed even before the Word)
 
I don't know if this warrants an upgrade though.But if fate existed even before Creation itself, is it possible for an upgrade? there's also about silk mans creation which Death claimed and Silk Mans Creation is apparently older than the Prsences Creation
 
I suppose that seems like a harmless change, but it is best if you ask Matthew Schroeder to comment here first.
 
As far as Lucifer is concerned he also still affected by probability up to that point because the child if the Basanos could see the future and where the choices he made that mattered were.
 
They only know about Lucifer because they are made from pages/knowledge from the Book of Destiny.So it's still because Destiny knows the fate of Lucifer that the Basanos were able to know his future
 
It's hard to quantify age with the Endless. Like, when Morpheus Dream dies and Daniel Hall takes over, that new version of Dream has always existed.
 
The more I read and think about the endless the more confused I become.And Death was able to claim Elaine even though he is in Lucifers creation, she also claimed the Creation of Silk Man wouldn't this mean that Death isn't just limited to the Presences Creation but rather existed where the concept of Death exist even to the other creations in the Void?
 
I've read the Dreaming and the snake changed the story of Eden and it not only changed The Dreaming but the entire Creation itself.Creation reverted back to the time before Adam and Eve ate the apple
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
It's hard to quantify age with the Endless. Like, when Morpheus Dream dies and Daniel Hall takes over, that new version of Dream has always existed.
Click to expand...
But this confirmed that Destiny existed before Creation itself.So it's not just the chronological order of what perspective of the Endless came first but rather the time Destiny is actually born

This would also mean that the Endless (at least Death and Destiny) are not that dependent on Creation.Death was even shown to live after she claimed Destiny

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11125/111258855/5181010-death+gallery+27.jpg
 
Also, I remember from the Books of Magic(I think) it is mentioned that The Script changed, this may refer to the Presence leaving Creation and Elaine replacing him or maybe its something else.
 
Bump

maybe just upgrade Death's range

Death claimed a Creation much older than the Presence's creation, even escaping to the Void isn't enough to escape Death and it's been shown that she also exists in other Creations other than the Creation of the Presence (In Lucifer's Creation and in Silk Mans reality) and even Lucifer said to Silk Man that there's no cheating Death, only stretching the rules a little.Then wouldn't this mean that Death isn't just present in the Creation of the Presence but also in the other Creations in the Void?

There's also the fact that Death can open a portal/dimensional rift from Lucifers Creation to the Presence Creation without using the Gate made from the Presence's Letter of Passage.This means that Death can hop from one Creation to another easily
 
Bump

Death outliving Creation isn't so far-fetched.We know that the Endless can enter and live in a 1-A realm disconnected from reality and that the Endless can freely enter their Mother's realm.

In Overture Mother Night also said that she's the darkness that everything's going to return to after Creation ends.If Death can enter and live in Night's realm then she surviving the end of existence is possible because at the end of existence is Mother Night swallowing Creation back to herself

So maybe she embodies death but also transcends it at the same time since she still exists even after she claimed Destiny the last living being in Creation.So either there's still something keeping Death from fading away from existence or maybe it doesn't matter to her if everything dies, that even after everything is dead Death will still exist

"The Universe is over.It's my job to put it all in order, now, and lock the place behind me as I leave"

The scan literally shows Death outside Creation locking it with her Ankh
 
So given the evidence above, I think that Death isn't merely limited to the Presence's creation but rather exist everywhere where the concept of Death exists

Also, I think the reason that Destiny being above Death because she is inside in his book isn't really a reason that he is above Death considering that even Destiny and probably even Michael and Lucifer are in inside Destiny 's book until Lucifer escaped the Presences plan

Also, Death will also one day leave Destiny's book given that she is still alive even after claiming Destiny.So if Death still exists even after Destiny and his book are gone then wouldn't that mean that Death is already outside Destiny's Book?
 
I also read the Books of Magic story in which Death claimed Destiny. I do not know if that means thaf she is not restricted by the book while it still exists though.
 
It's just that Death is the death of all things, so she will be there to claim Destiny when he dies. But she is not stronger than Destiny when it isn't his time to die.
 
Lucifer also admits that he will have to meet Death one day, but Death herself states that she is powerless against Lucifer when they meet in the present.

It doesn't scale to her typical power.
 
Alright. So what, if any, changes do you think should be applied based on this thread.
 
I honestly don't really see if there is much change to be done.

Lucifer being part of Destiny's book is a thing in the sense that the book was written by the Presence, but he also has real power to actually break free from the book and destroy it, and is indirectly responsible for the creation of Destiny, which the book is a part of.
 
Okay. Should we close this thread then?
 
Okay. Should we change any character ages first?
 
Just to be clear, I'm not saying we should upgrade them to 1-A, just Deaths range maybe? I think they should remain High 1-B

http://i.imgur.com/fe5rw0n.jpg?1

I mean she's the one who claimed silk man's reality, a different Creation from the Presence

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11125/111258855/5401322-transactions.jpg

Death can open a portal/dimensional rift from Lucifers Creation to the Presence Creation without using the Gate made from the Presence's Letter of Passage.This means that Death can hop from one Creation to another easily

So this seems to show that Death's influence extends past The Presence's Creation.Again not upgrading her tier but maybe upgrading Death nigh omnipresence in Creation to nigh omnipresence to Creations
 
So the main purpose of this thread is not to upgrade them to 1-A but show that Death's influence isn't limited to a single Creation

Also, yeah, Death shouldn't be more powerful than Destiny
 
TheSandman31 said:
So the main purpose of this thread is not to upgrade them to 1-A but show that Death's influence isn't limited to a single Creation
Also, yeah, Death shouldn't be more powerful than Destiny
Click to expand...
I agree with this. She appears in Elaine's creation I think, and will exist in the next too.
 
Okay, so what needs to be changed in her profile?
 
she's been shown to appear in every Creation.She appeared in Lucifers, Elaine and even the much earlier creation where the Silk Man came from.So I think its best to just change her nigh-omnipresence from Is everywhere that there is Life and Death in Creation to Is everywhere where thereDeath and Life exist

Maybe Outerverse range? because apparently according to Lucifer even escaping to the Void doesn't mean you cheated but just delayed the inevitable

Let's wait for what Matthew gotta say
 
Bump

Wouldnt this make Death of the Endless older than both Michael and Lucifer? I mean Death was claiming Creations that is much older than the Creation of the Presence
 
I do not know. It depends on what Matthew thinks. I haven't read the original Lucifer series.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

VeryGoofyToddler
  • Locked
Vertigo(Neil Gaiman and Mike Carey) Revision
2 3
Replies
82
Views
7K
Deagonx
Deagonx
PrinceStories
  • Locked
Problem Acausality type 4 Lucifer's
Replies
31
Views
2K
IdiosyncraticLawyer
IdiosyncraticLawyer
Robo432343
  • Locked
Lucifer High Godly Regeneration
2 3
Replies
108
Views
5K
Antvasima
Antvasima
LazyMortician
  • Locked
Lucifer Morningstar Hax Revision
2
Replies
70
Views
4K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Weaver26
  • Locked
Vertigo Cosmology Is High 1-A and The Presence is High 1-A, Lucifer possibly 0
2
Replies
48
Views
5K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
Back
Top