-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
DC Comics - The Legendary DC Heralds Upgrade
- Thread starter Emirp sumitpo
- Start date
- Status
- 3,270
- 1,096
Yes, I just did. If you read Golden Age Clark and don't agree that he's an SJW then you're wrong
- 1,951
- 418
Fact of the matter is, currently Earth-Two Superman scales to Silver Age and Superboy-Priime, if at least downgrading. Post-Crisis Superman is without a doubt relevant here, even if it goes something like this -- SA >~ SBP >> E2 = PC
- 25,017
- 27,011
- Thread starter
- #525
Can we get back to the matter at hand?
- 167,857
- 76,474
Didn't he fight against corrupt businessmen, extreme criminals, and tyrannical governments back then? Modern social justice warriors sadly seem to focus much more on helping to control the culture and allowed opinions of their fellow working class members than on genuine anti-totalitarian socialism (fighting for true equality, freedom, and prosperity for everybody) that recognises that the psychopathic oligarchs and tyrannical politicians who run this world are the true enemy.
This is true though. My apologies for derailing.
- 7,550
- 7,738
From the current list of 3+ leaning agrees, does anyone have counter arguments?
- 167,857
- 76,474
- 1,951
- 418
You're fine, Ant. Your topics were relevant, it's just the scaling that we need to focus on later -- at least regarding GA and SA Supes.This is true though. My apologies for derailing.
Does anyone have the comics in which the Superboy fight takes place?
- 25,017
- 27,011
- Thread starter
- #530
Which?
- 1,951
- 418
The one where Superboy and Superman fight Time Trapper SBP.
- 946
- 830
Final crisis: Legion of 3 worlds.
- 7,889
- 14,936
I'm not sure think Eficiente was indicating agreeance by saying "ok to the rest." I say "okay" a lot in response to things I don't want to continue arguing about, but Eficiente can clarify.
This is still about the "limitless energy" thing? Cause if so, I really think you should let that go. The explosion clearly wasn't that significant, and the phrase "limitless power" is already vague enough that it should not be used for tiering, except to maybe support a clear feat.
What do you mean Lois was referring to physical things? This is the scan in question and she does not reference any physical things that are able to kill Supes. However, this is just a reference in a comic written 20 years later, so we should focus on WITS itself and I agree with Eficiente that the feat seems unusable as it's strongly implied that it was illusory, not a universe-destruction-surviving feat.
I think these scans really strongly speak to Eficiente's point that whatever this experience was, we are not meant to interpret it as a durability feat for Superman.
"Maybe I'm dead already. Maybe my consciousness is burning out -- even as my flesh is consumed in the core of a dying star. Or maybe this is something more. Something even Death doesn't understand. Maybe this feeling we share, Lois and I, is the doorway to a place that transcends death and life, earth and Krypton."
I really think this event should be tabled to focus on feats that are more clear. I don't see why we'd try to interpret this vision-quest experience as a universal durability feat.
Yes, but consider the context: When Clark remarks that they shattered the boundaries of space and time, he says "every time we connect, I'm transported to his world. Living his life." The conflict isn't being depicted as literally destroying universes, there is something metaphysical going on regarding their connection as two different versions of Superman. They aren't literally punching eachother so hard that they switch lives.
You can't just willy-nilly transpose a phrase "Supermatter" to a different phrase "Supersolid" and pretend that they mean the same thing just because they both have the word "Super" in front of them. Lots of matter isn't solid.
Second, saying "it relates to condensed matter physics" just kind of tells me that not enough research went into this. The phrase "condensed" in condensed matter physics doesn't refer to compression, so even if he had actually said Supersolid we wouldn't be able to say "hey! That's related to condensed matter physics! Therefore we can overlook the fact that his size is small by interpreting it as compression of a full size universe!" Because the word condensed in this context has nothing to do with physical compression.
This is explained in the link you provided:
The name "condensed matter physics" emphasized the commonality of scientific problems encountered by physicists working on solids, liquids, plasmas, and other complex matter, whereas "solid state physics" was often associated with restricted industrial applications of metals and semiconductors.
More generally, the subject deals with "condensed" phases of matter: systems of many constituents with strong interactions between them
So, two main points
1) Condensed matter physics has nothing to do with physical compression in such a way that we could interpret Nebula Man as being "actually a full sized universed compressed into the size of a man"
2) Supermatter and Supersolid are not the same thing, Supermatter is not a real scientific term, and it's not appropriate to rewrite it to fit a theory.
The size of universes in DC is not consistently described as infinite, and it's generally understood to have a strict physical boundary in the form of the Source Wall.
- 2,630
- 2,446
It was accepted as infinite already, if you want to not use it make a crt after this is finished
- 7,889
- 14,936
The current cosmology revision project, which has been accepted, corrects this. There are multiple scans that indicate that it is finite in size, and even a scan that reference the Big Bang as expanding the universe by "sixty trillion light years in half a second."
- 7,550
- 7,738
Please save cosmology stuff for a different thread.
- 7,889
- 14,936
Well the size of the universe was used as part of the justification for a tier, so it has immediate relevance to that feat.
- 167,857
- 76,474
I just came to think of something:
I vaguely recall that the Post-Crisis Superman absorbed sufficient energy to destroy half a galaxy or somesuch during the Mageddon storyline, and that Post-Rebirth Supergirl was stated to have withstood sufficiently powerful attacks to destroy multiple star systems in a scan that somebody uploaded to our general DC Comics discussion thread. Would this together with many Green Lanterns together explicitly containing a galaxy-destroying explosion during the Sinestro Corps War, at least be sufficient to upgrade all DC Comics "herald-level" characters to 4-A?
I vaguely recall that the Post-Crisis Superman absorbed sufficient energy to destroy half a galaxy or somesuch during the Mageddon storyline, and that Post-Rebirth Supergirl was stated to have withstood sufficiently powerful attacks to destroy multiple star systems in a scan that somebody uploaded to our general DC Comics discussion thread. Would this together with many Green Lanterns together explicitly containing a galaxy-destroying explosion during the Sinestro Corps War, at least be sufficient to upgrade all DC Comics "herald-level" characters to 4-A?
- 2,630
- 2,446
i feel like we should talk about this after the whole tier 2 thing has concluded
- 167,857
- 76,474
Okay. It seems like all or almost all of it has been rejected, so I thought that the more straightforward/explicit raw power (rather than vague speculative scaling) feats might be more useful to focus on.
- 946
- 830
We should ask him again but from the interpretation of the message seems he said okay to the rest, cause if he didn't wanna argue again he'd just say agree to disagree like previous messages but @Antvasima can tag him and ask what he means.
- 3,270
- 1,096
There are like ten-ish feats that had three or more staff members accept them. The other one Emirp is still debating Eficiente over
- 7,889
- 14,936
Doesn't necessarily mean they'll be tiered a certain way, though. It is significant that many of these feats were culled. Once we drill down to which feats are actually usable, we can probably re-focus the discussion on those feats.
- 167,857
- 76,474
- 1,951
- 418
So I've read through the proper comic, and Time Trapper Superboy Prime showed no signs of weakness when he eventually fought Superman; it's also the same comic where Superman was able to briefly restrain the main-stream Superboy Prime, and 'make Mordru spit up teeth'.
In that comic Superman was able to at least restrain Superboy Prime and withstand a blow from an enraged Prime, whereas Mordru was unable to do anything other than tickle him.
In that comic Superman was able to at least restrain Superboy Prime and withstand a blow from an enraged Prime, whereas Mordru was unable to do anything other than tickle him.
- 946
- 830
Not to mention superman was still holding heavily since his a kid.
- 167,857
- 76,474
Hmm. Maybe that can be used then, but it seems very inconsistent if Superman and comparable characters have no raw power feats of their own remotely on a similar scale.
- 1,951
- 418
Last I checked, there are few feats that have majority agreement.
So while this scaling won't be the justification for the upgrade in of itself, it'll be great in helping support the upgrade.
- 1,951
- 418
Link?
- 167,857
- 76,474
Hmm. Can you remind me which feats that would be please?
Please take into account that only the staff members that evaluated the feats one by one, rather than giving casual all-including blanket statements, are initially relevant in this type of complicated situation.
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,524
The scans that say the universes aren't finite weren't accepted however, the tierings weren't accepted, only how the Cosmology is split was accepted.
Moreover, there are scans saying the Big Bang was infinite as well.
- 1,951
- 418
Right, so I thought that there was one or two non-scaling feats accepted, but I guess I was wrong.
I'll list them anyways, Incase they are relevant:
Infinite Man (Infinite power statements, as strong as Darkseid, in-turn comparable to Superman)
Astro Force Cosmos (Scales back to Orion, whom Darkseid and Superman scale to.)
Superman (Punching out Barbatos, fighting SBP, blatant Phantom Zone destruction statement)
Ion (Universe creation statements, Superboy Prime scaling, infinite power statements.)
Mister Terrific infinite power statements (Reliable source)
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,524
He was damaged by the end of Metal but he could have healed by Death Metal, though idk.
TimeTrapperFanBoy
He/Him- 193
- 181
The "Infinite Power" statements don't always have to mean High 3-A levels of power, if they were, then Android Saga level characters from Dragon Ball would be tier 3 universal. I do agree with Post-Crisis Superman scaling to Pre-Flashpoint Darkseid, since the New Gods and Old Gods were basically unaffected by COIE, but then again you could make the argument that those fights where Superman beats Darkseid, or at least somewhat contends with him, are considered high-end feats for the man of steel or major inconsistencies for Darkseid, they might fall in the case of "everybody can fight everybody" comic book sense. The same thing can apply to Superboy-Prime.
- 167,857
- 76,474
Well, you should probably first send a private message to DontTalkDT about the issue, and include me in the conversation.
- 302
- 199
Following this thread and agreed with everything, finally 2-C Superman may come true
- Status
