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Yes, I just did. If you read Golden Age Clark and don't agree that he's an SJW then you're wrongDid you just call my man an SJW
Fact of the matter is, currently Earth-Two Superman scales to Silver Age and Superboy-Priime, if at least downgrading. Post-Crisis Superman is without a doubt relevant here, even if it goes something like this -- SA >~ SBP >> E2 = PCThe Golden Age Superman did suddenly go from tier 4 (in his own old stories) to tier 2 when somehow matching the Silver Age Superman in combat, yes. However, given how inconsistent it was with his earlier appearances, we might have to consider it as a standard "everybody can fight everybody" plot convention for western superhero comic books.
Didn't he fight against corrupt businessmen, extreme criminals, and tyrannical governments back then? Modern social justice warriors sadly seem to focus much more on helping to control the culture and allowed opinions of their fellow working class members than on genuine anti-totalitarian socialism (fighting for true equality, freedom, and prosperity for everybody) that recognises that the psychopathic oligarchs and tyrannical politicians who run this world are the true enemy.Golden Age Superman is a whole can of worms. In the original stories he was essentially a small building supersonic+ SJW
This is true though. My apologies for derailing.Can we get back to the matter at hand?
@EficienteFrom the current list of 3+ leaning agrees, does anyone have counter arguments?
You're fine, Ant. Your topics were relevant, it's just the scaling that we need to focus on later -- at least regarding GA and SA Supes.This is true though. My apologies for derailing.
Which?Does anyone have the comics in which the Superboy fight takes place?
The one where Superboy and Superman fight Time Trapper SBP.Which?
Final crisis: Legion of 3 worlds.The one where Superboy and Superman fight Time Trapper SBP.
https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5417389
Said his okay with the rest(last message).
I'm not sure think Eficiente was indicating agreeance by saying "ok to the rest." I say "okay" a lot in response to things I don't want to continue arguing about, but Eficiente can clarify.Can you link me his reply, please?
This is still about the "limitless energy" thing? Cause if so, I really think you should let that go. The explosion clearly wasn't that significant, and the phrase "limitless power" is already vague enough that it should not be used for tiering, except to maybe support a clear feat.They're inside Mageddon's body so obviously it wasn't reaching the entire universe, and even then, they were at the epicenter of the thing. Even if it was just about his energy reserves, it wouldn't matter because it being self destruction would likely mean using up all of his energy reserves.
What do you mean Lois was referring to physical things? This is the scan in question and she does not reference any physical things that are able to kill Supes. However, this is just a reference in a comic written 20 years later, so we should focus on WITS itself and I agree with Eficiente that the feat seems unusable as it's strongly implied that it was illusory, not a universe-destruction-surviving feat.Lois was talking referring to physical things being able to kill Supes, I don't know why she'd just bring up what was just a "mental illusion" as an example.
I think these scans really strongly speak to Eficiente's point that whatever this experience was, we are not meant to interpret it as a durability feat for Superman.This clearly isn't any normal Black Hole either, as it has affected time, either making there no time at all (implying the space-time was destroyed) or merging all time together. Clark is still at the core of this dying sun for a while, and to return, he has to push through the barriers of space and time. Could be used to further imply space and time being gone.
Yes, but consider the context: When Clark remarks that they shattered the boundaries of space and time, he says "every time we connect, I'm transported to his world. Living his life." The conflict isn't being depicted as literally destroying universes, there is something metaphysical going on regarding their connection as two different versions of Superman. They aren't literally punching eachother so hard that they switch lives.I'm not sure how it's just "conceptual things" when blatant things like shattered the boundaries of space and time, as well as the book stating they were bending reality.
You can't just willy-nilly transpose a phrase "Supermatter" to a different phrase "Supersolid" and pretend that they mean the same thing just because they both have the word "Super" in front of them. Lots of matter isn't solid.We've addressed this before, but Nebula Man is a compressed universe. As far as him being a mini-Universe goes, well obviously yeah. No one argues he's literally Universal in size. The point is he's a compressed Universe, we know this since it's said he's a supermatter (Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein #4), something like a Supersolid, which relates to condensed matter physics. This makes sense since he's no longer a baby Universe like as Qwewq, but now is an adult.
The size of universes in DC is not consistently described as infinite, and it's generally understood to have a strict physical boundary in the form of the Source Wall.Tanking a portion of an infinite universe sized big bang would still be High 3-A, and Ganthet wasn't that far from the epicenter.
It was accepted as infinite already, if you want to not use it make a crt after this is finishedThe size of universes in DC is not consistently described as infinite, and it's generally understood to have a strict physical boundary in the form of the Source Wall.
The current cosmology revision project, which has been accepted, corrects this. There are multiple scans that indicate that it is finite in size, and even a scan that reference the Big Bang as expanding the universe by "sixty trillion light years in half a second."It was accepted as infinite already, if you want to not use it make a crt after this is finished
Well the size of the universe was used as part of the justification for a tier, so it has immediate relevance to that feat.Please save cosmology stuff for a different thread.
i feel like we should talk about this after the whole tier 2 thing has concludedI just came to think of something:
I vaguely recall that the Post-Crisis Superman absorbed sufficient energy to destroy half a galaxy or somesuch during the Mageddon storyline, and that Post-Rebirth Supergirl was stated to have withstood sufficiently powerful attacks to destroy multiple star systems in a scan that somebody uploaded to our general DC Comics discussion thread. Would this together with many Green Lanterns together explicitly containing a galaxy-destroying explosion during the Sinestro Corps War, at least be sufficient to upgrade all DC Comics "herald-level" characters to 4-A?
We should ask him again but from the interpretation of the message seems he said okay to the rest, cause if he didn't wanna argue again he'd just say agree to disagree like previous messages but @Antvasima can tag him and ask what he means.I'm not sure think Eficiente was indicating agreeance by saying "ok to the rest." I say "okay" a lot in response to things I don't want to continue arguing about, but Eficiente can clarify.
There are like ten-ish feats that had three or more staff members accept them. The other one Emirp is still debating Eficiente overOkay. It seems like all or almost all of it has been rejected, so I thought that the more straightforward/explicit raw power (rather than vague speculative scaling) feats might be more useful to focus on.
Doesn't necessarily mean they'll be tiered a certain way, though. It is significant that many of these feats were culled. Once we drill down to which feats are actually usable, we can probably re-focus the discussion on those feats.There are like ten-ish feats that had three or more staff members accept them. The other one Emirp is still debating Eficiente over
i feel like we should talk about this after the whole tier 2 thing has concluded
Okay. It seems like all or almost all of it has been rejected, so I thought that the more straightforward/explicit raw power (rather than vague speculative scaling) feats might be more useful to focus on.
@EficienteWe should ask him again but from the interpretation of the message seems he said okay to the rest, cause if he didn't wanna argue again he'd just say agree to disagree like previous messages but @Antvasima can tag him and ask what he means.
Maybe, maybe not. But wasn't SBP severely weakened when Superman fought him?
Not to mention superman was still holding heavily since his a kid.In that comic Superman was able to at least restrain Superboy Prime and withstand a blow from an enraged Prime,
Hmm. Maybe that can be used then, but it seems very inconsistent if Superman and comparable characters have no raw power feats of their own remotely on a similar scale.So I've read through the proper comic, and Time Trapper Superboy Prime showed no signs of weakness when he eventually fought Superman; it's also the same comic where Superman was able to briefly restrain the main-stream Superboy Prime, and 'make Mordru spit up teeth'.
In that comic Superman was able to at least restrain Superboy Prime and withstand a blow from an enraged Prime, whereas Mordru was unable to do anything other than tickle him.
Last I checked, there are few feats that have majority agreement.Hmm. Maybe that can be used then, but it seems very inconsistent if Superman and comparable characters have no raw power feats of their own remotely on a similar scale.
Link?The current cosmology revision project, which has been accepted, corrects this. There are multiple scans that indicate that it is finite in size, and even a scan that reference the Big Bang as expanding the universe by "sixty trillion light years in half a second."
Hmm. Can you remind me which feats that would be please?Last I checked, there are few feats that have majority agreement.
So while this scaling won't be the justification for the upgrade in of itself, it'll be great in helping support the upgrade.
The scans that say the universes aren't finite weren't accepted however, the tierings weren't accepted, only how the Cosmology is split was accepted.The current cosmology revision project, which has been accepted, corrects this. There are multiple scans that indicate that it is finite in size, and even a scan that reference the Big Bang as expanding the universe by "sixty trillion light years in half a second."
Right, so I thought that there was one or two non-scaling feats accepted, but I guess I was wrong.Hmm. Can you remind me which feats that would be please?
He was damaged by the end of Metal but he could have healed by Death Metal, though idk.Hmm. Wasn't Barbatos extremely weakened by the tenth metal when the DC Comics superheroes fought him?
The "Infinite Power" statements don't always have to mean High 3-A levels of power, if they were, then Android Saga level characters from Dragon Ball would be tier 3 universal. I do agree with Post-Crisis Superman scaling to Pre-Flashpoint Darkseid, since the New Gods and Old Gods were basically unaffected by COIE, but then again you could make the argument that those fights where Superman beats Darkseid, or at least somewhat contends with him, are considered high-end feats for the man of steel or major inconsistencies for Darkseid, they might fall in the case of "everybody can fight everybody" comic book sense. The same thing can apply to Superboy-Prime.Right, so I thought that there was one or two non-scaling feats accepted, but I guess I was wrong.
I'll list them anyways, Incase they are relevant:
Infinite Man (Infinite power statements, as strong as Darkseid, in-turn comparable to Superman)
Astro Force Cosmos (Scales back to Orion, whom Darkseid and Superman scale to.)
Superman (Punching out Barbatos, fighting SBP, blatant Phantom Zone destruction statement)
Ion (Universe creation statements, Superboy Prime scaling, infinite power statements.)
Mister Terrific infinite power statements (Reliable source)
Well, you should probably first send a private message to DontTalkDT about the issue, and include me in the conversation.On a somewhat related note, I think we should rethink the policy on how we approach phrases like "infinite power." I don't think it should be used for tiering. Is that something that could be addressed with a CRT?