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probably but a lot of the endless characters dont have justifications or scans for their abilities either
anything thats not justified should be removed
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DC Comics: Reviewing Exotic Haxes
- Thread starter IdiosyncraticLawyer
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anything thats not justified should be removed
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Correct. I only sought to remove the more "metaphysical" stuff because I don't have time to do a full overhaul for these profiles.
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For Causality manip
What wrong here? As far as i am aware stuff like history manip & Time Erasure is text book Causality manip here which is what most of character there havin it for, especially some of them straight up called manipulate an event, which is CAUSE manipulation. There multiple Q&A about this with Text Manipulation page noted it.
For Destruction probablity and causality, its because every variable and causality in creation could lead to destruction as it was his function. As an example when Dream and Delirium were in a quest to search him, everyone around them experience unfortunate events such as gas leak that lead to a night club exploded and their companion in the quest lit a ciggarate that lead to a whole motel burning.
What wrong here? As far as i am aware stuff like history manip & Time Erasure is text book Causality manip here which is what most of character there havin it for, especially some of them straight up called manipulate an event, which is CAUSE manipulation. There multiple Q&A about this with Text Manipulation page noted it.
For Destruction probablity and causality, its because every variable and causality in creation could lead to destruction as it was his function. As an example when Dream and Delirium were in a quest to search him, everyone around them experience unfortunate events such as gas leak that lead to a night club exploded and their companion in the quest lit a ciggarate that lead to a whole motel burning.
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Doesn't manipulating history count as causality manipulation?
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All of Jill presto ability is scalled from the Basanos so she was legit
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did you just say killing someone from the past to kill them in the present isn't a hax??
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IdiosyncraticLawyer
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It depends on how its done, if something else sent you through time then it isn't a hax. More context is needed for the scan (I have not read the comic so I can't comment much)
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That's why it's only limited. They draw power from the conceptual force and use it for their own attacks. That's why it's limited CM and not straight up CM.
And the difference between Captain Atom and Speedsters and Lanterns is that Captain Atom himself has actually been shown to be able to fully manipulate the entirety of the Quantum Field.
In the context of the story arc, this is very much just Captain Atom's soul travelling to the spirit realm. His physical body was still in the real world. So that argument would not apply here.
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He removed the event of them ever becoming God by killing the event before they became God.
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Did he warp time or travel back in time?
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Supergirl teleported via her divine magical wings, but I don’t know why that matters. In the Godsphere, all the realms operate under this notion that you’re in a state of idea rather than material existence. For example, New God technology that can bring you to the Godsphere were stated to not really teleport but rather perform a transcendence of life, death, time, space, and the entropy that gives time and direction meaning. And the Godsphere realms in JLD were stated to not be made up of physical objects as they were visually depicted but rather the idea of such things. And obviously, there’s dozens of statements going over how the realms are archetypal, so it wouldn’t be very fair to say these notions are nonsensical at all, you just seem to be misinformed.
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The scan never mentions he traveled back in time. He most likely just used them as a conduit because Beatrice was used as a vessel to which push back all their powers back and Lucifer simply destroyed whatever event made them God in the first place. I don't think it had anything to do with time rather he just willed it to happen. I think when he killed Dunium, he also killed the Titans because they expressed that the only way to kill the Titans was by enacting their power on what they already touched and it only worked because the Titans hadn't transcendent time yet.
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I just don't think it should be CM at all. Their attacks and abilities are not conceptual in any way. The ultimate source of it might be conceptual but the end result isn't. It just seems meaningless to me to describe it that way and would lead to confusion IMO.
Sure, but if Superman did the same thing and used his heat vision, would we assume he has CM heat vision? I'd prefer we didn't. At the end of the day we are trying to communicate what abilities these characters have, particularly for battles. Comic authors' habit of handwaving realm discrepancies entirely is not -- IMO -- a sound basis for saying everyone has concept manip, even a limited form of it.
As I said, this is a relatively modern idea in DC and not all stories and authors acknowledge that. Supergirl teleported without a boom tube, and the end result was that she was physically smaller than the other inhabitants. There's no argument to be made that in the context of that storyline the book tubes perform a transcendence, lest we delve into the territory that the wing teleportation also performs the transcendence but inexplicably it's some weird lesser form where she appears smaller than everyone.
You appear to have misread my comment. I didn't say the idea of the realms being conceptual is nonsense, I said the idea of supergirl being small compared to everyone else in Apokolips because she didn't use a boom tube is nonsensical if the idea is that Apokolips is conceptual. She still made it to Apokolips, size shouldn't apply.
The point is that authors routinely ignore the non-physical element of higher realms. Even when Superman reaches the sixth dimension he still flies through suns to physically punch World Forger.
Even when he is in the Sixth Dimension he is described in undeniably physical terms like "it would take like hours to catch up with him" which is only intelligible in the context of physical speed.
I am not inclined to interpret such things as complex metaphysical abilities by every person in DC. Authors just don't know how to write a metaphysical realm so they revert to writing it like a physical realm.
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I'm pretty sure drawing and manipulating energies from a conceptual source is a form of conceptual manipulation, albeit limited. It's pretty straightforward.
As for the second part, it's more up to us to explain that their conceptual manipulation is limited and why so. A better solution is to write a better justification for his limited conceptual manipulation.
This isn't a case of realm discrepancies. This isn't Captain Atom's physical self travelling to the spirit realm. This is his spirit itself.
Your argument simply does not work in this context because the story actively acknowledges and revolves around CA being a spirit in a spirit world. He's not travelling to the spirit world via his own body or anything.
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If the end result is entirely physical, I have to disagree. I don't think lanterns and speedsters should all have CM.
My argument doesn't revolve around the story not mentioning that the realm is spiritual, I am saying that authors routinely ignore the practical implications of that by treating all interactions as typical physical ones. This, IMO, is not a good reason to interpret their abilities as spiritual or conceptual in base. If Batman went he'd probably just get punched in the face. That's just how comics tend to be written. It isn't a function of the Quantum Field or Captain Atom being inherently conceptual or spiritual, IMO.
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Except neither of them are physical within this story. So again, that can't apply.
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I think this is a communication issue. I am not saying either of them are physical.
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What’s the basis of this argument about Captain Atom? I don't see conceptual manipulation but I could be missing what's the argument here.
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I'll summarise it up later
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Well to be clear, Supergirl was performing the teleportation through her angel wings for the first time, and because of this she struggled to actually do it, and even went through a lot of pain while teleporting. Obviously she didn’t intend to not be visually adjusted properly to the realm of the Gods, but it seems to have been a malfunction due to her not being full comfortable with her divine powers. She also retained the same level of powers despite her form looking weird so in the end it was just an appearance malfunction.
I don’t think your interpretation of this one Supergirl scan that’s missing some context, would justify there being a massive inconsistency with the Sphere of Gods being conceptual, across DC comics 90 year history. The sixth dimension is an interesting point, but I think it’d be dragging this conversation off topic to delve into it.
Also no one’s forcing you to interpret the stories properly. If you want to deliberately run into contradictions so you can have an excuse to say “DC writers are clueless bro” go right ahead.
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No, it's because boom tubes make you physically larger and she didn't use one. It wasn't a visual adjustment problem, her small size had physical consequences in the realm.
Uh, I guess not? But that's obviously preferable to interpreting them Improperly. And I never insulted the writers.
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- [All of Jill presto ability is scalled from the Basanos so she was legit]
- [did you just say killing someone from the past to kill them in the present isn't a hax??]
- [For Destruction probablity and causality, its because every variable and causality in creation could lead to destruction as it was his function. As an example when Dream and Delirium where in a quest to search him, everyone around them experience unfortunate events such as gas leak that lead to a night club exploded and their companion in the quest lit a ciggarate that lead to a whole motel burning]
- [For Causality manip What wrong here? As far as i am aware stuff like history manip & Time Erasure is text book Causality manip here which is what most of character there havin it for, especially some of them straight up called manipulate an event, which is CAUSE manipulation. There multiple Q&A about this with Text Manipulation page noted it.]
-Darkseid's feat is just history erasure.
-Lucifer's feat, as I mentioned above, is just time travel.
-Perpetua's whole "manipulated events across space-time" is just a flowery way to describe her organized plot to free herself from being sealed.
-Superboy's justifications... I don't even understand how they were meant to imply causality manipulation in the first place.
The only causality manipulation justifications I'm admittedly iffy on are Warlogog's and Dr. Manhattan's, but from what I understand, time reversal is only causality manipulation when it's performed by inverting the cause/effect relationship.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Sure.
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they do have justification though, the mechanism behind their ability is to inflict the effect from the future or all possible choice to the present.
their probablity manipulation is also byproduct of causality manipulation. an imitation of destiny books.
Honestly has no idea why its exploded but the point stand, it mean to be poetic how in their quest to seek for destruction they got it, I also noticed that Destiny are there, i think its the most easily explained one because its a book that contain past present and future that can be rewitten, basically textbook Text Manipulation.
which is causality manipulation
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A boom tube is a transcendence from material existence to abstract. To say it’s a physical thing would imply that the Godsphere is of the material world, when it is definitively not. Also, a boom tube isn’t the only way to transcend into the Godsphere, so her not using one isn’t the problem. The problem as highlighted in the story is that she’s never used her shunt technique to get into the Godsphere before, so when she tried it for the first time, things went wrong and she started spiraling in this weird state while being in complete agony, before finally waking up on Apokolips. So in conclusion, her altered appearance was a result of her misusing her angel powers rather than whatever reason you’re trying to say.
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Just so you know. You don't have to be part of the material world to be “physical.”
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In that story, it was.
My stature may be smaller...
Six inches or six feet, my will isn't diminished one bit. Now to get some distance before...
There are numerous other instances of this when it comes to the Sphere. Like when an angel was killed by dropping a marble block on him in Heaven.
I guess the silver city has spirit gravity.
The world of the Old God's was said to be largest than the largest star, and cities in New Genesis were described as thousands of miles across.
The point being, as it pertains to the purpose of this thread, is that a character using an ability in a realm that is described in some comics as conceptual and transcendental is not a good enough basis for assuming their abilities are conceptual or transcendental, because the common convention in these stories has been to treat the interactions in these realms as no different from the physical, employing explicitly physical language and functions.
If a character is to be given a conceptual ability I'd prefer they actually demonstrate that, not simply use an energy blast in the Sphere and call it a day.
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Wisely put.
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Am I supposed to take Supergirl as a reliable source on how existence states in the Godsphere work or something?
Lol it wouldn’t be far fetched considering they have “idea trees” as well. JLD(probably the most Godsphere heavy story) has multiple instances supporting that realms in the Godsphere are not real like their universe or existing how they visually appear. For example a tree in myyra is not actually a literal tree but the idea of a tree. And it would later be stated that myyra isn't real the same way our world is real, and that it’s more of a magical idea with its own unique cosmic rules and order.
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You're adding a new layer of obfuscation. Suddenly Supergirl must be unreliable because the evidence has contradicted you. No problem then, take it from Granny Goodness.
All creatures in your pathetic sphere are as gnats to those of apokolips. The Boom Tube adjusts our size when we come through. But you remain your true proportion to us, albeit a tad bigger.
And numerous other instances:
Cities average a thousand miles, and Earth would barely displace the waters of a small lake.
The Boom Tube adjusts your size as you travel through it
The Planet of the Elder Gods dwarfs galaxies
It'd be extremely far fetched, in comparison to the far more natural conclusion that it worked the same way it would elsewhere.
Good for Myrra? That is neither Apokolips nor Heaven nor the Underworld, and this single line does not justify interpreting every single Godsphere realm and its blatantly physical interactions and statements as being some kind of metaphor.
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No supergirl is unreliable because supergirl does not live in or understand the Godsphere. And since you decided to pivot to Supergirls statement, I brought it up. Superman is also not a reliable source btw, so you can X that other scan about “thousand miles” off as well. And the scan saying boomtubes “adjust your size” doesn’t refute my point either since a boomtubes manner of adjusting size is to literally transcend you beyond material existence into the realm of the abstracts. The orphan boxes scan pretty much proves this, as they’re transcending life, death, space, time, and the entropy that gives time and direction meaning.
So no, you don’t have numerous scans, you’re now down to one scan. One scan that can easily be rationalized through the scans that I’ve already posted.
if you think a natural conclusion is something that literally goes against the system of the cosmology, then I don’t know what to tell you. The godsphere has always been the metaphysical realm of archetypes beyond the material level of existence. Suggesting otherwise would just be contradicting the whole cosmology layout.
Also, you can very much justify all the realms in the Godsphere operating this way since all the realms in the Godsphere are magic based realms made from Hecate just like Myyra. So they should have the same substance and exists in the same way. And with that you now have no point left to pivot to.
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Hasty12345
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I think Deagon makes the most sense here.
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That's not Superman, that's just the narration.
That's not what size means. Size literally means "physical magnitude" and the wording in both scans is undeniably about physical size, hence Granny's comment about "true proportion" and Orion saying planets are a speck in an air pocket.
No, we still have numerous scans. Gravity killing an angel in Heaven, multiple statements of size and physical distances. I'm not going to "rationalize" away what the scans are actually telling me in favor of headcanon.
You're referring to a specific and recent conception of the Sphere of the Gods and attempting to super impose it on conceptions of it that were blatantly physical. It doesn't go against the "system of the cosmology." It is the accurate interpretation of these stories in the context they were written in.
You saying it can be justified isn't an argument, and the fact that these realms come from Hecate does not justify that either.
But regardless, we have steered way of course and have simply reverted to a circular discussion about cosmology which serves no purpose here. I've made it abundantly clear with numerous scans (and many that I have not even brought up yet) that there are many stories in which the sphere is treated as physical, even when it is explicitly not physical. You're free to have the last word on this, this discussion has become largely irrelevant to the actual revisions at this point and I'm not going to be persuaded by you repeating your argument a third time.
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Ditto.
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For the arguments of the Quantum Field being a conceptual realm.
The Quantum Field is heavily implied by Takion to be on a similar level and functions in a similar fashion to both the Speed Force and the Emotional Spectrum, which are also conceptual realms, as he states "The Quantum Field... Flash's speed field.... Lantern's power ring... all different... all the same... all aspects of the one power". The whole battle revolves around Takion trying to balance out and control all of these similar powers. Both of which are one of the main multiversal forces, and are also showcased to be fundamental parts of reality, similar to how the Quantum Field is shown to operate.
Also to add on to my point, in Genesis #2, Highfather also repeats what Takion was saying, listing the Quantum Field as a fundamental force like the speed force and the emotional spectrum.
As for evidence of the Quantum Field not being similar to the irl version. Rasputin states that "I suspect the field doesn't really exist until you call upon it, up until that moment, it's only a theoretical possibility." There's also neverminding the fact that Captain Atom can still call upon it against Nekron in the world of the unliving, a spiritual realm, with its power, Captain Atom can harm Nekron's true self.
Mind you, this is Captain Atom's spirit self and not his physical self that's interacting with Nekron
As for reasoning as to why Captain Atom should have limited Conceptual Manipulation
1. Drawing power from a conceptual force and utilizing it for all of your attacks should account for limited manipulation of some sort.
2. Unlike (most) similar host characters like the speedsters and lanterns, Captain Atom is capable of manipulating the entirety of the Quantum Field, such as when he absorbed it to fight against Nekron, or manipulated the Quantum Field so he could create his own universe.
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Seeing the above, I think it's pretty clear that the Quantum Field isn't the same as the one in real life. With that and it being put on the same level as the Speed Force and Emotional Spectrum then it being a conceptual realm should be fine to me.
Though, if the Quantum Field is a conceptual realm and Captain Adam can manipulate it fully, then why wouldn't it be outright Conceptual Manipulation? If the issue is it being taken to an extreme then just specify what he can do with it on the profiles.
Though, if the Quantum Field is a conceptual realm and Captain Adam can manipulate it fully, then why wouldn't it be outright Conceptual Manipulation? If the issue is it being taken to an extreme then just specify what he can do with it on the profiles.
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Ig so. My solution is just write a better justification for the ability.
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Should it though? I think focalizing the power to an extent would just be more of an AP. If, however, the power itself is somewhat either with Captain Atom that he could just use himself (QF avatar) or perhaps manipulate whatever force to a degree changing certain things using it then it can count.
However, it's kind of like how we gave Mandrakk limited Plot Manipulation. It sounded good at first but it ultimately doesn't work. There has to be a specific conditioning when it comes. Is using the force fundamentally going to change what it targets or perhaps we can adjust the profile of CA to being a conceptual being and by using the force would make him have conceptual manipulation.
These two could work as I find the QF to be a sort of dependent concept and you're example could match these two options:
I just don't see it but you can try to convince the other mods.
That would count as conceptual manipulation. However, is that consistent with CA, and is the Quantum Field always treated as that sort of conceptual idea? If so then that does look like CM.
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I'm still in favor of removing it, and I am not in favor of giving all Lanterns and Speedsters a form of conceptual manipulation.
What is the reasoning for these being conceptual forces, by the way? I understand they are "main multiversal forces" but something being a powerful non-physical energy source does not make it a concept. Conceptual things are non-physical, but being non-physical does not automatically make something conceptual.
What is the reasoning for these being conceptual forces, by the way? I understand they are "main multiversal forces" but something being a powerful non-physical energy source does not make it a concept. Conceptual things are non-physical, but being non-physical does not automatically make something conceptual.
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