DC Comics - Remove "possibly" for the Darkest Knight

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out. I have opened the Superboy-Prime page for you to edit. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[Deagonx]

Then I have no idea why people are saying it isn't metafictional enough. Could anyone summarize their reasons for saying that?

Because the word "stories" isn't being used in a metafictional way, they are just referring to the lives of people in the universe. The Chronicler literally documents the events of each multiverse and describes them as stories, but it's never presented in a metafictional way. The assumption is being made that it's metafictional because of a couple of instances of the word story.

the Chronicler explicitly stated that the stories of the Multiverse was different from the rest of the Multiverses of the Omniverse, and that he wrote the destruction of previous stories in his book. How can he write lower dimensions in his book?

He didn't write them, he documented them, that's a big difference.

Let's say it is not a plot manipulation; what do you call it? You can't say it is not Plot manipulation, but not calling alternative.
And you also can't ignore the ability, that's literally one of his abilities (I think it is main as it is presented in comics)

Nothing about it is metafictional, they are just destroying universes

EDIT: I see the matter has been resolved. Sorry for the superfluous post about it.

 

[Transcending]

Okay. Thank you for helping out. I have opened the Superboy-Prime page for you to edit. Tell me here when you are done.

Do we deal the feat as an Outlier or make him Unknown?

 

[Antvasima]

It seems better to remove it due to being an outlier.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Nothing about it is metafictional, they are just destroying universes

EDIT: I see the matter has been resolved. Sorry for the superfluous post about it.

You actually did not answer my question but alright.

 

[Transcending]

It seems better to remove it due to being an outlier.

I think we should write a note for that feat then, so that others won't make CRTs trying to upgrade SBP with that feat.

Also, what do you think about this? I finished editing TBWL, Perpetua, Manhattan, and The Hands btw, though TBWL will have to stay unlocked if this is fine:

Since TDK without Crisis Energy+Wally's energy= 1-A(scaling to Perpetua), and we know Wally<TDK, wouldn't TDK without Crisis Energy need to be 1-A as well? After all, any lower tier added twice wouldn't reach 1-A, like Low 1-A+Low 1-A=Low 1-A, not 1-A.

So the only way TDK(without CE)+Wally>1-A(Perpetua) can happen is if TDK himself was 1-A.

I definitely disagree with SPB getting to 1-A though. Even if this feat is 1-A for him, it would be an unimaginably big outlier.

 

[Antvasima]

I think we should write a note for that feat then, so that others won't make CRTs trying to upgrade SBP with that feat.

That seems like a good idea, yes.

Also, what do you think about this? I finished editing TBWL, Perpetua, Manhattan, and The Hands btw, though TBWL will have to stay unlocked if this is fine:

Since TDK without Crisis Energy+Wally's energy= 1-A(scaling to Perpetua), and we know Wally<TDK, wouldn't TDK without Crisis Energy need to be 1-A as well? After all, any lower tier added twice wouldn't reach 1-A, like Low 1-A+Low 1-A=Low 1-A, not 1-A.

So the only way TDK(without CE)+Wally>1-A(Perpetua) can happen is if TDK himself was 1-A.

I definitely disagree with SPB getting to 1-A though. Even if this feat is 1-A for him, it would be an unimaginably big outlier.

I do not know. Sorry. I would appreciate input from knowledgeable members.

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @LordTracer @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Armorchompy @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist @Alonik @Gasper @Confluctor @Maverick_Zero_X

 

[Eseseso]

What will we do about anti-crisis energy wally west?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know, but asked for input help.

 

[Armorchompy]

I can't input on the CRT as a whole, but doesn't SBP grow in power as time goes? I'm not sure what would indicate this being an outlier

 

[Antvasima]

Somehow going beyond infinite degrees of infinity times stronger without any explanation whatsoever seems like a pretty clear-cut outlier, yes. Any other interpretation seems extremely suspicious.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Any other interpretation seems extremely suspicious.

Its noted a couple time in Secret Origins that Prime is different, we also have Batmanhattan say there was "more to you than I thought" upon being punched by SBP. There's also the fact that SBP in this story is just demonstrably superior to his other versions like punching Batmanhattan so hard he not only retconned the multiverse but retconned himself back into existence.

Its a weird power jump, but at least it commented on that SBP seems different and its not like Superman randomly knocking out a Tier 1 without effort. It'd just only scale to a Death Metal key and nothing else.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Prime was simply resurrected by the Hands after they restored the multiverse, but that this part of the story happened after Wonder Woman defeated The Darkest Knight, and that Prime defeating TDK seemed to be the kind of ridiculously extreme plot-induced stupidity that is typical for DC Comics and Marvel Comics. We cannot give out 1-A ratings left and right every time it happens. By that logic we would have to scale Thor to 1-A for harming the Chaos King and give Black Panther the same rating for defeating the Logos as well, for example.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I think that Prime was simply resurrected by the Hands after they restored the multiverse, but that this part of the story happened after Wonder Woman defeated The Darkest Knight, and that Prime defeating TDK seemed to be the kind of ridiculously extreme plot-induced stupidity that is typical for DC Comics and Marvel Comics. We cannot give out 1-A ratings left and right every time it happens. By that logic we would have to scale Thor to 1-A for harming the Chaos King and give Black Panther the same rating for defeating the Logos as well, for example.

Good point

 

[Recap_]

I think that Prime was simply resurrected by the Hands after they restored the multiverse, but that this part of the story happened after Wonder Woman defeated The Darkest Knight, and that Prime defeating TDK seemed to be the kind of ridiculously extreme plot-induced stupidity that is typical for DC Comics and Marvel Comics. We cannot give out 1-A ratings left and right every time it happens. By that logic we would have to scale Thor to 1-A for harming the Chaos King and give Black Panther the same rating for defeating the Logos as well, for example.

Uh.. i wonder why isn't logos profile on the this wiki? Master order and lord chaos too.

 

[Armorchompy]

Somehow going beyond infinite degrees of infinity times stronger without any explanation whatsoever seems like a pretty clear-cut outlier, yes. Any other interpretation seems extremely suspicious.

Well, he's going from 4-B to 2-C and from 2-A to Low 1-C as we consider things so he's already hopping up by infinities.

If he has anti-feats in this key, ignore the feat, otherwise I see no reasons but arbitrary skepticism to not scale him, there's very blatant statements he is on their level.

 

[Transcending]

He was hopping up by an infinity but that was a single tier jump and just 1-2 infinity jump. 1-A is Aleph 2 amount of infinities. It's not comparable.

 

[Armorchompy]

who cares bro it's a comic book, if he's that strong he's that strong, don't act like "just" growing by literal infinity isn't stupid enough to just kick any suspension of disbelief out of the window already but growing by more infinities is

 

[Qawsedf234]

TDK seemed to be the kind of ridiculously extreme plot-induced stupidity

We already acknowledge that SBP during this event is stronger than his other versions. It would solely apply to this key.

By that logic we would have to scale Thor to 1-A for harming the Chaos King and give Black Panther the same rating for defeating the Logos as well, for example.

Sure I would agree that wouldn't work, but at the same time neither one of them are listed with a separate key explicitly scaling to a character that just got upgraded. Either we remove the key or we scale up prime. There's really no other option.

 

[Transcending]

I think removing the key works

 

[Armorchompy]

It's literally the whole climax and conclusion of an important character's arc bruh, are people really this adverse to big stats on a page?

 

[Beyond_transcending]

It being a climax doesn't change the fact that the feat is an outlier though. His climax is infinitely above anything he showed prior.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

It being a climax doesn't change the fact that the feat is an outlier though. His climax is infinitely above anything he showed prior.

Infinitely above anything a previous weaker incarnation has shown you mean. Saying "infinite is too big of a jump" is literally argument from incredulity

 

[Transcending]

Infinitely above anything a previous weaker incarnation has shown you mean. Saying "infinite is too big of a jump" is literally argument from incredulity

There's no canonical statement that he became way stronger than his previous incarnations. As long as there isn't, there's no reason to assume it's not an outlier when this is literally his only feat on the level.

SPB also needed massive help to destroy the Earth a few issues back. Would you say he should be downgraded to sub Planetary because of this?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

There's no canonical statement that he became way stronger than his previous incarnations. As long as there isn't, there's no reason to assume it's not an outlier when this is literally his only feat on the level.

SPB also needed massive help to destroy the Earth a few issues back. Would you say he should be downgraded to sub Planetary because of this?

Why do you need a statement when there's a feat which shows he grew stronger?

Go ahead and downgrade SBP and almost every character to below planetary then

 

[Hasty12345]

Why do you need a statement when there's a feat which shows he grew stronger?

Go ahead and downgrade SBP and almost every character to below planetary then

Don’t put that idea in peoples heads, they’ll do it.

 

[Transcending]

Why do you need a statement when there's a feat which shows he grew stronger?

Because feats can be Outliers?

Go ahead and downgrade SBP and almost every character to below planetary then

Why should I? I was using your own logic, which I pretty clearly disagree with. That planetary thing is also an Outlier.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Don’t put that idea in peoples heads, they’ll do it.

Fr HAHAHAH dude told us a good idea

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Because feats can be Outliers?

Why should I? I was using your own logic, which I pretty clearly disagree with. That planetary thing is also an Outlier.

You need proof of it being an outlier

If the planetary thing is an outlier then don't use it as an example

 

[Transcending]

You need proof of it being an outlier

Which I already provided in our last argument with the guidelines and all and you haven't countered that.

If the planetary

It is an Outlier by my logic, it is not with yours.

 

[Deagonx]

What does proof of it being an outlier mean anyways? Isn't the proof the fact that we only have one feat on that level?

 

[Transcending]

What does proof of it being an outlier mean anyways? Isn't the proof the fact that we only have one feat on that level?

Ig yeah

 

[Transcending]

I really just need to show that it fits some of those guidelines, which I already did

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Which I already provided in our last argument with the guidelines and all and you haven't countered that.

It is an Outlier by my logic, it is not with yours.

If someone shows 2 planetary feats and then years later performs a universal feat, would it be more consistent to say "outlier" or he got stronger?

 

[Transcending]

If someone shows 2 planetary feats and then years later performs a universal feat, would it be more consistent to say "outlier" or he got stronger?

Largely depends on the context, but most of the time, we can say he's Universal due to the fact he has few feats.

SPB though, has more than enough feats for one instance to not be an outlier. Also, the difference between planetary and universal is finite while the difference between Tier 2 and 1-A is Aleph 2 levels of qualitative superiorities. They are not comparable in the slightest.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Also, the difference between planetary and universal is finite while the difference between Tier 2 and 1-A is Aleph 2 levels of qualitative superiorities. They are not comparable in the slightest.

The only difference is that the SBP one is infinitely higher than the example I gave. So your argument is basically "it sounds absurd it must not be true"

 

[Transcending]

The only difference is that the SBP one is infinitely higher than the example I gave. So your argument is basically "it sounds absurd it must not be true"

No? An Outlier is literally dependant on how many feats on a level the character has, and how much of a jump in power it is. Your example had a jump without even a single qualitative superiority while SPB's jump is equal to Aleph 2 qualitative superiorities.

Plus you ignored the rest of my argument with the amount of feats. Stop cherry-picking.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

No? An Outlier is literally dependant on how many feats on a level the character has, and how much of a jump in power it is. Your example had a jump without even a single qualitative superiority while SPB's jump is equal to Aleph 2 qualitative superiorities.

Plus you ignored the rest of my argument with the amount of feats. Stop cherry-picking.

Why is it dependent on how much of a jump? And my example only has 1 universal feat, SBP has multiple tier 1 stuff

 

[Transcending]

Why is it dependent on how much of a jump?

Literally the first guideline-

Outliers

An Outlier is an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power. Outliers are often regarded as unusable in forums debates. However, efforts should be made to try to reconcile...

vsbattles.fandom.com

And my example only has 1 universal feat, SBP has multiple tier 1 stuff

1 universal feat in relation to 2 planetary feats. And there too, the jump in power is finite, not infinite.

There's no other Tier 1 feat of SPB that's accepted. You can go make a separate CRT trying to upgrade his other keys if you want.

 

[Antvasima]

There's no canonical statement that he became way stronger than his previous incarnations. As long as there isn't, there's no reason to assume it's not an outlier when this is literally his only feat on the level.

SPB also needed massive help to destroy the Earth a few issues back. Would you say he should be downgraded to sub Planetary because of this?

I very strongly agree with the above points. Let's not be so upgrade-hungry that we insert completely unreliable and ridiculously exaggerated statistics that are derived from one-time instances of extreme plot-induced stupidity.

It also isn't a long-lasting and prominent enough power-up according to our rules to qualify for a statistics key, so we should probably remove it.