DC Comics: follow-up upgrades (Part 1)

[NHTkenshin2]

The Sphere and the New Gods can't be treated as platonic if they violate the basic standards of platonism.

I have long ago dropped this argument, now focusing on the attributes of Platonic concepts rather then full out calling them such.

Earth-33 can't be an R>F layer if the beings above it don't see the other Earths as fictional.

Requires an extreme case-by-case analysis to actually determine who scales and who doesn't.

The Sphere can't have a "higher temporal dimension" if it is routinely demonstrated to have a passage of time that is connected to the passing of time on Earth.

Which is why hyperlinks will do me good here, it'l shut me up, full time. I need evidence. Let me link to you just how many times i have requested evidence in this thread

Spoiler: SOURCE?

1.

I'd love to see them.

2.

Well yeah, reasons have to be given.

3.

According to the numerous interviews with the author, it does. Again, non of you have actually addressed the scans, moreso just discredited them for being only established WoGs, and said the comics didn't make it clear. Which is an optimal response ofc

4.

I was provided and presented with none, zilch. Actually reading through most of our interactions, i have always been the one to post scans and back up my arguments, numerous times.

5.

And why exactly would that be the case? Are there any scans to suggest that Perpetua, a Sixth Dimensional entity above the Fifth dimension which views the entire Multiversity map as a product of imagination would be on the same level of existence as a 3-D Orrery level character?

6.

Deagon, my brother, the only scan you have ever posted in this entire thread, was an outdated scan that you used to claim that Apokolips was a physical world, when there are an insane dump of evidence proving these are not physical in the slightest.

It genuinely pains me that people do not read this thread that i worked so hard on, and choose to instantaneously believe you when you have not posted evidence to against my claims, and have not actually went against the main points of this thread.

7.

Proof requested. 5th time i've asked for evidence.

8.

Evidence, i need them to stop believing with all 9 scans above. I get some from Morrison, i stop believing in this notion.

9.

Should i record to you all of our interactions and actually prove to you just how baseless alot of the arguments made against me are?

10.

6th time i have asked for evidence. As well as a debunk to the 9 scans above, when i see them, i'll believe them.

And what exactly is your absolute response to all of this? What is the defining moment of this thread? The moment where all my arguments get dusted and become completely rejected?

This one:

The people interested in assessing threads like these are knowledgeable enough about the verse and cosmology that they don't need to be shown the same scan they've seen 1000 times before, like the one from FC of Nix Uotan recreating the "platonic" New Gods or et cetera. The basic facts that everyone knows about characters like Darkseid disproves platonism unto itself, that doesn't really require me to post scans.

DO YOU SEE GODS OF OLYMPUS!? I have been wronged! How can 2 administrators agree with someone who hasn't given any evidence to back up his claims! And has literally admitted to saying that he doesn't need to post any scans or proof behind his arguments!

Eitherway, as i said, if this thread remains open, i will try to at least clear some stuff up tomorrow.

 

[Deagonx]

Which is why hyperlinks will do me good here, it'l shut me up, full time

I mean, it won't though. It didn't for platonism. You may have agreed to drop it for now, but you indicated that you still believe it despite being proven wrong.

How can 2 administrators agree with someone who hasn't given any evidence to back up his claims!

It's very straightforward: The answer to your question is that these administrators have both read a great deal of DC comics and are already aware of the facts I am referring to.

I'll ask again since you avoided it last time: are you claiming that your perception as a DC comics reader is that when characters travel to the Sphere, time stops on earth relative to them? Like they can go to the Sphere for what feels like years, come back out, and no time has passed?

I can tell you, having read hundreds of stories involving such events, that isn't the case. That doesn't become untrue simply because I haven't sought ought scans to prove it to you. I don't really need to because anyone who reads DC comics already knows this. The same way I never provided scans for the fact that New Gods can die or the fact that human beliefs create and affect Gods. We both already know that.

 

[Tarang123]

Higher Dimensionality weaponry is not presented in the same manners of superiority existence and a complete transcendence of lower reality. It's just saying a dimension higher as in the Sphere to the Orrery as in 4D>3D.

SoG functionary of time is different in which place you are at but it doesn't transcend the time continuum of the Orrery. It just works separately from it, it's not this plane of existence with time being transcendent of the Orrery.

If it’s above things like space and time or whatever, it would still be Low 1C, no?
What was the evidence for it not being above it?

 

[Deagonx]

If it’s above things like space and time or whatever, it would still be Low 1C, no?
What was the evidence for it not being above it?

Above doesn't always mean "infinitely greater than." The Sphere is certainly outside the Orrery

 

[Tarang123]

Above doesn't always mean "infinitely greater than." The Sphere is certainly outside the Orrery

If it’s stated to be a higher dimensional place with statements of transcending both time and space, I think viewing it as superior to that degree is fine

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

If it’s stated to be a higher dimensional place with statements of transcending both time and space, I think viewing it as superior to that degree is fine

This is why there's something called context. You cannot base something off an incoherent statement to suggest “transcending” means being greater on that scale(infinite). There needs to be specific detail or else every mention of something greater would have that evocation of that logic.

Being above and outside is not saying it's infinitely greater. Just that it simply exists outside of it.

 

[Tarang123]

This is why there's something called context. You cannot base something off an incoherent statement to suggest “transcending” means being greater on that scale(infinite). There needs to be specific detail or else every mention of something greater would have that evocation of that logic.

Being above and outside is not saying it's infinitely greater. Just that it simply exists outside of it.

Yet we already give tier 1 ratings for statements of transcending time? If DC had one of those statements for a cosmological structure, why wouldn’t it qualify?

 

[Deagonx]

If it’s stated to be a higher dimensional place with statements of transcending both time and space, I think viewing it as superior to that degree is fine

I don't see any statements of it being said to transcend space or time, just that it's outside of it.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Spoiler: Ruh

I mean, it won't though. It didn't for platonism.

You have to understand where i was coming from though, when Batman called the Sphere a platonic world, when Morrison confirmed Metron was a platonic concept that defined all electric based phenomenon in the Orrery, (including the Speed force which essentially wraps around the Material worlds) and when E-23s WW calls them Universals, and you look at all the evidence provided, it becomes exceedingly clear the Gods at least follow THAT specific attribute of Platonic concepts, that being, concepts that define all aspects of the material world.

But whatever, platonism is dropped, the latter argument though, isnt. The Sphere is concepts, and concepts define non-concepts, comics backed this up

are you claiming that your perception as a DC comics reader is that when characters travel to the Sphere, time stops on earth relative to them? Like they can go to the Sphere for what feels like years, come back out, and no time has passed?

What my claim is, is very simple

Heaven is beyond space and beyond time. In JLA #30 we get very specific and explicit information that Time is no buenos in Heaven, and literally later within that issue, we see Zauriel and Sentinal seemingly manipulating time within heaven.

Gods themselves can view time within the Sphere nonlinearly, meaning time doesn't have to pass in the Orrery, one that entered in 5:30 can re-enter time again in Apokolips-hours later whatever if he so pleases, thats what Metron did.

I simply claim Heaven seemingly has a higher dimension of time because of that, when its so much established that SoG inhabitants exist unbound by time, and are still affected by some form of time dimension within heaven.

This is also seemingly the case with the Monitor Sphere, which exists entirely and absolutely unbound by whatever happens in the sphere and the orrery, yet has a dimension of time on its own, which I don't interpret as a contradiction for the following reasons.

Snyders work hint at this being because Time exists across the entire Multiverse, but again, that does not explain what exactly would we call things that exist outside of the temporal dimension of Earth-poopyhead or whatever. Its very clear we have to interpret the ENTIRE Multiversity map being in the Fourth Dimension with much more then a grain of salt

You feel me here?

The same way I never provided scans for the fact that New Gods can die or the fact that human beliefs create and affect Gods. We both already know that.

You have not, however, provided any scans on why exactly Earth-33 should be considered just like any universe when every single source in existence disproves that argument.

Which confused me alot, when i saw people agreeing, even though i went out of my way to quote the author in numerous quotes and take evidence from the comics supporting said notion. Do you understand why i feel like i've been a little mistreated here?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Yet we already give tier 1 ratings for statements of transcending time? If DC had one of those statements for a cosmological structure, why wouldn’t it qualify?

Context and setting matter not to mention it's a slow process of the staff trying to fix that.

As seen above, the Sphere of the Gods and the Collective Unconscious exist on a higher plane of existence than the Orrery of Worlds but are not qualitatively superior for having an infinity higher than the multiverse, which means that both realms are At least 2-C structures.

 

[Tarang123]

Context and setting matter not to mention it's a slow process of the staff trying to fix that.

As seen above, the Sphere of the Gods and the Collective Unconscious exist on a higher plane of existence than the Orrery of Worlds but are not qualitatively superior for having an infinity higher than the multiverse, which means that both realms are At least 2-C structures.

Why are they not qualitatively superior? What exactly is preventing this?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Why are they not qualitatively superior? What exactly is preventing this?

It says it right there. No evidence to support full transcendence that suggests it is infinitely greater. Not to mention “at the very least it's 2-C” which means it can be possibly higher but not to an infinite degree.

Beyond, Outside, and Non-Temporal are not any indications for a tier upgrade.

 

[Tarang123]

It says it right there. No evidence to support full transcendence that suggests it is infinitely greater. Not to mention “at the very least it's 2-C” which means it can be possibly higher but not to an infinite degree.

Beyond, Outside, and Non-Temporal are not any indications for a tier upgrade.

If it’s stated that they transcend space and time and we give verses the tier for the exact same logic, then it seems like a double standard to deny DC a tier 1 rating.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Why are they not qualitatively superior? What exactly is preventing this?

Well actually

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

If it’s stated that they transcend space and time and we give verses the tier for the exact same logic, then it seems like a double standard to deny DC a tier 1 rating.

Which part? If they did to the Sphere if there’s any evidence of a greater dimensionality of time there then yes. Simply bypassing a Low 2-C structure time continuum isn't a guarantee of anything especially when there needs to proof that it is qualitative superior to at least be equivalent to an infinity between the Sphere and the Orrery.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

when there needs to proof that it is qualitative superior

Yeah heres the big thing, they're concepts, who are confirmed to define all phenomenon in the material worlds, that is qualitative superiority to the highest extent.

You cant call something Tier 2 when it defines why something is Tier 2 in the first place. Thats not a “52 universes+1” situation.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Yeah heres the big thing, they're concepts, who are confirmed to define all phenomenon in the material worlds, that is qualitative superiority to the highest extent.

You cant call something Tier 2 when it defines why something is Tier 2 in the first place. Thats not a “52 universes+1” situation.

This coherently does not make sense. I think we already covered all these bases you keep bringing up again. This is mainly an assumption on your behalf and overly playing on something that was said but not shown.

 

[Deagonx]

you look at all the evidence provided, it becomes exceedingly clear the Gods at least follow THAT specific attribute of Platonic concepts, that being, concepts that define all aspects of the material world.

If you solely consider your own evidence in a vacuum without regard for what is true in the greater verse, sure. But that's the thing, we've all read lots of DC comics, we know all of the things you're leaving out. Like the fact that quite explicitly the gods do not "define all aspects of the material world." In fact, it is the beliefs of the people on Earth that define the Gods.

When Darkseid dies, does evil stop existing? No. Does evil exist above Darkseid? Yes. Does it exist in other Multiverses outside DC? Most probably. We know that there was a period of time in the Orrery where Gods did not exist at all. Yet the material world, which you are so insistent on claiming depends on these conceptual gods, was fine and operated based on normal parameters.

when its so much established that SoG inhabitants exist unbound by time, and are still affected by some form of time dimension within heaven.

And yet, it isn't. We have a single scan which attributes the perception of Godly beings (not just SoG inhabitants. This doesn't apply to run of the mill angels, et cetera) as atemporal. This does not override the various instances in which it has been shown that time in the Orrery and time in the Sphere passes concurrently.

Which confused me alot, when i saw people agreeing, even though i went out of my way to quote the author in numerous quotes and take evidence from the comics supporting said notion. Do you understand why i feel like i've been a little mistreated here?

I understand why, but I think you need to come back down to reality. You're comfortable taking certain things for granted, you haven't asked me to prove that beliefs of the Multiverse created the Gods. You haven't asked me to prove that Darkseid died and was recreated. Et cetera. If you did ask me to prove it, frankly, I probably wouldn't bother. It's a staple of the cosmology and if you aren't already aware of it, I'm not terribly concerned with proving it to you.

Similarly, basic facts like the passage of time in the Sphere vs the Orrery are things that anyone who reads DC already knows. The fact that Earth-33 very clearly isn't an R>F layer, that Perpetua very clearly doesn't see beings in the Orrery as fictional entities. The fact that beings from the Overvoid have literally come directly into these "fictional earths" and provided no indication of seeing it as fictional.

It's unfortunate that you are not already aware of these things, but the reason that DDM and Ant and Elizio and Goofy already agree with me despite not posting scans of it is that, just like how you were already aware of the collective unconscious, they are already aware of these things. That may not be convincing to you, or to other people who haven't read a lot of DC comics, but it's not something that's going to receive much supporter amongst people who know the verse well.

 

[Tarang123]

Which part? If they did to the Sphere if there’s any evidence of a greater dimensionality of time there then yes. Simply bypassing a Low 2-C structure time continuum isn't a guarantee of anything especially when there needs to proof that it is qualitative superior to at least be equivalent to an infinity between the Sphere and the Orrery.

I didn't say it bypassed a Low 2C continuum. I said it transcends time. The only context that I've seen become a factor in tier shit like that is whether or not the statement is actually talking about superiority, which it is in DC. So I fail to see the issue here.

 

[Joshn05]

Deagon and Goofy make the most sense to me here. Most of these points have been addressed in other threads before and I see no reason to keep going back and forth over them again.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I didn't say it bypassed a Low 2C continuum. I said it transcends time. The only context that I've seen become a factor in tier shit like that is whether or not the statement is actually talking about superiority, which it is in DC. So I fail to see the issue here.

What “time” are you referring to? The entire DC structure follows time all the way up to the Monitor Sphere, it works slightly differently depending on the temporal dimension in each level of reality since time starts at 4D, which is both the Orerry and the Sphere.

I don't see such “statements” to validate that there is a higher superiority with temporal dimensions that suggest a qualitative superiority of SoG time to transcend that of the Orrery.

 

[Tarang123]

What “time” are you referring to? The entire DC structure follows time all the way up to the Monitor Sphere, it works slightly differently depending on the temporal dimension in each level of reality since time starts at 4D, which is both the Orerry and the Sphere.

I'm not saying that it's above all extensions of time or whatever. I'm saying it's above the space-times below it. This just seems completely irrelevant considering that the proposed tier is like Low 1C

I don't see such “statements” to validate that there is a higher superiority with temporal dimensions that suggest a qualitative superiority of SoG time to transcend that of the Orrery.

It's not just, but also space as well.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I'm not saying that it's above all extensions of time or whatever. I'm saying it's above the space-times below it. This just seems completely irrelevant considering that the proposed tier is like Low 1C

Had the structure in question would be 2-A then it seems more feasible. We are upscaling the SoG from the Orrery. The Orrery is a Low 2-C structure following the 4D space-time continuum. A depth greater than it would only add it to being 2-C because the level of transcendence is just outside that space-time. It needs to be qualitatively superior by a margin equivalent to an infinite degree. To suggest a tier extension from 2-C to the 1-C as the OP suggests. That sort of jump needs coherent evidence to suggest why that structure in question is at least Low 1-C.

It's not just, but also space as well.

Right, and that's supposed to make a difference!

 

[Deagonx]

Well, this has been rejected by all the staff that have looked at it, and most of the normal users including several that are knowledgeable about DC, so it seems fine to close this now.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to everybody who helped out here.